Pain lingers for lesbian couple denied in Sweet Cakes case

[martybegan]

Personally, I am fine with gays and lesbians being able to get married. My objections are to the forced participation of others in their plans.

Everyone has the Right To Be Left Alone.

If you're a wedding vendor; a baker, caterer, florist, dress maker, photographer, etc., how are you 'forced' to participate?

Participants include the person officiating the ceremony, parents of the spouses, members of the wedding party and invited guests. Vendors do not act as ring bearers or flower girls or bridesmaids. They do not propose a toast, nor dance with the bride nor throw rice. They are not expected to come to the reception with a blender wrapped in silver paper, nor an envelope stuffed with cash.

In short, vendors are not 'participants'. They provide services, hopefully the same high level of services, they provide to each and every customer. They do not provide a 'mercantile imprimatur' approving the wedding. They presumably do not morally bet each customer to keep their immortal souls in good standing.

Those vendors who fail to provide services to homosexual couples are not acting out of Christian concern. It is nothing more than old fashioned Gay Bashing. Those vendors are twisting a beautiful, forgiving and loving faith to a vile purpose: their own hateful homophobic disdain for a lifestyle they find to be 'icky'. Hardly a dogma to be respected, let alone protected by law.

You answered your own question, bub. Vendors provide services and goods. That is participation. And they have the right to choose their customers, just as customers have the right to not patronize a business.

Freedom, isn't it grand?

True, vendors can refuse service. For reasons including unruly behavior on the part of the customer, poor credit, lack of payment, inappropriate dress (no shoes, no shirt).

They cannot refuse service because they find the customer's lifestyle (which in the case of homosexuals is legal in all 50 states) 'icky'. Nor can they refuse services because the customer is a minority. Refusal due to sexual orientation is open, blatant and shameful discrimination. Not valid reasons for a business open to the public.

So if a Satanist walked into a Catholic Store to buy a cross, said he would use it in a Black Mass, the Catholic Store would be forced to sell the cross to him?

Of course. That's public accommodation laws. If the Satan worshipper demanded that the Christian come to the hall during the satan worship service and hang the cross on the wall, we have the same circumstance as going to a same sex wedding.

I don't see it as the same, I am using an extreme example. The principle is the same though.

 

[Wake]

I doubt this couple understood the consequences of their actions for trying to ruin the lives of others over a cake.

 

[martybegan]

Baking a cake for a wedding reception is "direct participation in the wedding"? Since when?

The cake doesn't bake itself, evul twin.

How many times does "baking a cake" appear in the Christer bible?

Does the bible admonish people not to sin? Each sinful act doesn't have to be carefully enumerated. If you believe the act to be a sin, don't do it.

Personally, I am fine with gays and lesbians being able to get married. My objections are to the forced participation of others in their plans.

Everyone has the Right To Be Left Alone.

They do. But not people who run businesses. They've signed up to something.

They do, however, have the choice to not run a business. Or to run a business in a manner that won't conflict with their religious beliefs.

It's like religious people setting up a shop selling devil worshiping things, but then not selling to devil worshipers. Kind of doesn't make sense.

Where in the constitution does it say you give up your rights when you open a business? More importantly, where does it say that public accommodation trumps ANY reason to not provide a service?

 

[Wake]

Direct participation in the wedding which is a sinful act. Now we know that the government will force Christians to sin and punish them when they refuse. That part is over. The complaint the lesbians have now is a general disapproval of their perversion.

If gays and lesbians could make their unhappiness known, which they did. Sweet Cakes was happily put out of business. Then anyone else could also make their unhappiness known. This couple is getting exactly what they deserve.

Baking a cake for a wedding reception is "direct participation in the wedding"? Since when?

The cake doesn't bake itself, evul twin.

How many times does "baking a cake" appear in the Christer bible?

Does the bible admonish people not to sin? Each sinful act doesn't have to be carefully enumerated. If you believe the act to be a sin, don't do it.

Personally, I am fine with gays and lesbians being able to get married. My objections are to the forced participation of others in their plans.

Everyone has the Right To Be Left Alone.

What I see is that some on the Left simply will not leave you alone. They can't. They need to control what you say, think, and believe.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Baking a cake for a wedding reception is "direct participation in the wedding"? Since when?

The cake doesn't bake itself, evul twin.

How many times does "baking a cake" appear in the Christer bible?

Does the bible admonish people not to sin? Each sinful act doesn't have to be carefully enumerated. If you believe the act to be a sin, don't do it.

What if you have an act and if you do it, it's a sin, if you don't do it, it's a sin? Then what?

That is between the individual and God.

So you're basically saying that gay people need to be considerate towards religious people, but religious people can act however they like? So how is a gay person supposed to know what will and won't offend people? Why do they have to walk around as if egg shells are all over the floor to accommodate people who will use their religion as an excuse for anything?

 

[martybegan]

The cake doesn't bake itself, evul twin.

How many times does "baking a cake" appear in the Christer bible?

Does the bible admonish people not to sin? Each sinful act doesn't have to be carefully enumerated. If you believe the act to be a sin, don't do it.

What if you have an act and if you do it, it's a sin, if you don't do it, it's a sin? Then what?

That is between the individual and God.

So you're basically saying that gay people need to be considerate towards religious people, but religious people can act however they like? So how is a gay person supposed to know what will and won't offend people? Why do they have to walk around as if egg shells are all over the floor to accommodate people who will use their religion as an excuse for anything?

To me its not about an "excuse for anything", its about being rational about all this. For point of sale items, especially necessities, I can see requiring a business to sell an item. Same thing for timely matters, such as renting a motel room. But for contracted, non-necessary, easily obtainable elsewhere goods or services, a person's religious beliefs should be considered.

 

[Katzndogz]

The cake doesn't bake itself, evul twin.

How many times does "baking a cake" appear in the Christer bible?

Does the bible admonish people not to sin? Each sinful act doesn't have to be carefully enumerated. If you believe the act to be a sin, don't do it.

What if you have an act and if you do it, it's a sin, if you don't do it, it's a sin? Then what?

That is between the individual and God.

So you're basically saying that gay people need to be considerate towards religious people, but religious people can act however they like? So how is a gay person supposed to know what will and won't offend people? Why do they have to walk around as if egg shells are all over the floor to accommodate people who will use their religion as an excuse for anything?

No. Just understand that no means no. Will you use your artistry to make me a cake and set it up at my wedding. No. Simple.

No one has a right to the artistic talent of another, not for any reason. No artist, photographer, cake decorator, florist, no artist should ever be compelled to create against their will.

 

[Nosmo King]

Does the bible admonish people not to sin? Each sinful act doesn't have to be carefully enumerated. If you believe the act to be a sin, don't do it.

Personally, I am fine with gays and lesbians being able to get married. My objections are to the forced participation of others in their plans.

Everyone has the Right To Be Left Alone.

If you're a wedding vendor; a baker, caterer, florist, dress maker, photographer, etc., how are you 'forced' to participate?

Participants include the person officiating the ceremony, parents of the spouses, members of the wedding party and invited guests. Vendors do not act as ring bearers or flower girls or bridesmaids. They do not propose a toast, nor dance with the bride nor throw rice. They are not expected to come to the reception with a blender wrapped in silver paper, nor an envelope stuffed with cash.

In short, vendors are not 'participants'. They provide services, hopefully the same high level of services, they provide to each and every customer. They do not provide a 'mercantile imprimatur' approving the wedding. They presumably do not morally bet each customer to keep their immortal souls in good standing.

Those vendors who fail to provide services to homosexual couples are not acting out of Christian concern. It is nothing more than old fashioned Gay Bashing. Those vendors are twisting a beautiful, forgiving and loving faith to a vile purpose: their own hateful homophobic disdain for a lifestyle they find to be 'icky'. Hardly a dogma to be respected, let alone protected by law.

You answered your own question, bub. Vendors provide services and goods. That is participation. And they have the right to choose their customers, just as customers have the right to not patronize a business.

Freedom, isn't it grand?

True, vendors can refuse service. For reasons including unruly behavior on the part of the customer, poor credit, lack of payment, inappropriate dress (no shoes, no shirt).

They cannot refuse service because they find the customer's lifestyle (which in the case of homosexuals is legal in all 50 states) 'icky'. Nor can they refuse services because the customer is a minority. Refusal due to sexual orientation is open, blatant and shameful discrimination. Not valid reasons for a business open to the public.

So if a Satanist walked into a Catholic Store to buy a cross, said he would use it in a Black Mass, the Catholic Store would be forced to sell the cross to him?

I would hope that the Catholics would sell him a crucifix if for nothing other than their desire to expose him to the passion and love Christ suffered through to bring light, love and forgiveness to the world.

 

[frigidweirdo]

The cake doesn't bake itself, evul twin.

How many times does "baking a cake" appear in the Christer bible?

Does the bible admonish people not to sin? Each sinful act doesn't have to be carefully enumerated. If you believe the act to be a sin, don't do it.

Personally, I am fine with gays and lesbians being able to get married. My objections are to the forced participation of others in their plans.

Everyone has the Right To Be Left Alone.

They do. But not people who run businesses. They've signed up to something.

They do, however, have the choice to not run a business. Or to run a business in a manner that won't conflict with their religious beliefs.

It's like religious people setting up a shop selling devil worshiping things, but then not selling to devil worshipers. Kind of doesn't make sense.

Where in the constitution does it say you give up your rights when you open a business? More importantly, where does it say that public accommodation trumps ANY reason to not provide a service?

It doesn't. However there are things called LAWS. You can't just bypass laws. Also, you want people with businesses to have rights, but not the people who walk into a shop? It makes no sense.

 

[frigidweirdo]

How many times does "baking a cake" appear in the Christer bible?

Does the bible admonish people not to sin? Each sinful act doesn't have to be carefully enumerated. If you believe the act to be a sin, don't do it.

What if you have an act and if you do it, it's a sin, if you don't do it, it's a sin? Then what?

That is between the individual and God.

So you're basically saying that gay people need to be considerate towards religious people, but religious people can act however they like? So how is a gay person supposed to know what will and won't offend people? Why do they have to walk around as if egg shells are all over the floor to accommodate people who will use their religion as an excuse for anything?

No. Just understand that no means no. Will you use your artistry to make me a cake and set it up at my wedding. No. Simple.

No one has a right to the artistic talent of another, not for any reason. No artist, photographer, cake decorator, florist, no artist should ever be compelled to create against their will.

Fine, black man walks into Alabama diner. "No means no you dirty n*gger".

Somewhere along the line America decided it didn't want to live in such a society, and changed.

 

[martybegan]

Personally, I am fine with gays and lesbians being able to get married. My objections are to the forced participation of others in their plans.

Everyone has the Right To Be Left Alone.

If you're a wedding vendor; a baker, caterer, florist, dress maker, photographer, etc., how are you 'forced' to participate?

Participants include the person officiating the ceremony, parents of the spouses, members of the wedding party and invited guests. Vendors do not act as ring bearers or flower girls or bridesmaids. They do not propose a toast, nor dance with the bride nor throw rice. They are not expected to come to the reception with a blender wrapped in silver paper, nor an envelope stuffed with cash.

In short, vendors are not 'participants'. They provide services, hopefully the same high level of services, they provide to each and every customer. They do not provide a 'mercantile imprimatur' approving the wedding. They presumably do not morally bet each customer to keep their immortal souls in good standing.

Those vendors who fail to provide services to homosexual couples are not acting out of Christian concern. It is nothing more than old fashioned Gay Bashing. Those vendors are twisting a beautiful, forgiving and loving faith to a vile purpose: their own hateful homophobic disdain for a lifestyle they find to be 'icky'. Hardly a dogma to be respected, let alone protected by law.

You answered your own question, bub. Vendors provide services and goods. That is participation. And they have the right to choose their customers, just as customers have the right to not patronize a business.

Freedom, isn't it grand?

True, vendors can refuse service. For reasons including unruly behavior on the part of the customer, poor credit, lack of payment, inappropriate dress (no shoes, no shirt).

They cannot refuse service because they find the customer's lifestyle (which in the case of homosexuals is legal in all 50 states) 'icky'. Nor can they refuse services because the customer is a minority. Refusal due to sexual orientation is open, blatant and shameful discrimination. Not valid reasons for a business open to the public.

So if a Satanist walked into a Catholic Store to buy a cross, said he would use it in a Black Mass, the Catholic Store would be forced to sell the cross to him?

I would hope that the Catholics would sell him a crucifix if for nothing other than their desire to expose him to the passion and love Christ suffered through to bring light, love and forgiveness to the world.

Excellent non-answer.

Dodge,dip,duck,dive,dodge.

 

[Katzndogz]

How many times does "baking a cake" appear in the Christer bible?

Does the bible admonish people not to sin? Each sinful act doesn't have to be carefully enumerated. If you believe the act to be a sin, don't do it.

Personally, I am fine with gays and lesbians being able to get married. My objections are to the forced participation of others in their plans.

Everyone has the Right To Be Left Alone.

They do. But not people who run businesses. They've signed up to something.

They do, however, have the choice to not run a business. Or to run a business in a manner that won't conflict with their religious beliefs.

It's like religious people setting up a shop selling devil worshiping things, but then not selling to devil worshipers. Kind of doesn't make sense.

Where in the constitution does it say you give up your rights when you open a business? More importantly, where does it say that public accommodation trumps ANY reason to not provide a service?

It doesn't. However there are things called LAWS. You can't just bypass laws. Also, you want people with businesses to have rights, but not the people who walk into a shop? It makes no sense.

The people who walk into any shop have the right to buy any product offered for sale by that shop. The perv buys a cake. The satan worshipper buys a crucifix. They were do not have the right to compel attendance at an event found reprehensible.

 

[martybegan]

How many times does "baking a cake" appear in the Christer bible?

Does the bible admonish people not to sin? Each sinful act doesn't have to be carefully enumerated. If you believe the act to be a sin, don't do it.

Personally, I am fine with gays and lesbians being able to get married. My objections are to the forced participation of others in their plans.

Everyone has the Right To Be Left Alone.

They do. But not people who run businesses. They've signed up to something.

They do, however, have the choice to not run a business. Or to run a business in a manner that won't conflict with their religious beliefs.

It's like religious people setting up a shop selling devil worshiping things, but then not selling to devil worshipers. Kind of doesn't make sense.

Where in the constitution does it say you give up your rights when you open a business? More importantly, where does it say that public accommodation trumps ANY reason to not provide a service?

It doesn't. However there are things called LAWS. You can't just bypass laws. Also, you want people with businesses to have rights, but not the people who walk into a shop? It makes no sense.

and laws cannot subject a person to oppression if the right is protected constitutionally. The right to free exercise of religion is a constitutional right, thus if government wants to override that, it has to do so under the lightest burden possible, and only in situations that show an overwhelming government interest.

Two people's hurt feelings is not a compelling government interest, and fining the sellers into oblivion is not the lightest burden possible.

 

[Katzndogz]

Does the bible admonish people not to sin? Each sinful act doesn't have to be carefully enumerated. If you believe the act to be a sin, don't do it.

What if you have an act and if you do it, it's a sin, if you don't do it, it's a sin? Then what?

That is between the individual and God.

So you're basically saying that gay people need to be considerate towards religious people, but religious people can act however they like? So how is a gay person supposed to know what will and won't offend people? Why do they have to walk around as if egg shells are all over the floor to accommodate people who will use their religion as an excuse for anything?

No. Just understand that no means no. Will you use your artistry to make me a cake and set it up at my wedding. No. Simple.

No one has a right to the artistic talent of another, not for any reason. No artist, photographer, cake decorator, florist, no artist should ever be compelled to create against their will.

Fine, black man walks into Alabama diner. "No means no you dirty n*gger".

Somewhere along the line America decided it didn't want to live in such a society, and changed.

The black man has an absolute right to be served at that diner. What he can't do is compel the waitress to go to his car and give him a blow job. Not even if he saw her give one to someone else. Not even if he pays her.

Not even if she says she doesn't give blow jobs to dirty ni66ers.

 

[Nosmo King]

If you're a wedding vendor; a baker, caterer, florist, dress maker, photographer, etc., how are you 'forced' to participate?

Participants include the person officiating the ceremony, parents of the spouses, members of the wedding party and invited guests. Vendors do not act as ring bearers or flower girls or bridesmaids. They do not propose a toast, nor dance with the bride nor throw rice. They are not expected to come to the reception with a blender wrapped in silver paper, nor an envelope stuffed with cash.

In short, vendors are not 'participants'. They provide services, hopefully the same high level of services, they provide to each and every customer. They do not provide a 'mercantile imprimatur' approving the wedding. They presumably do not morally bet each customer to keep their immortal souls in good standing.

Those vendors who fail to provide services to homosexual couples are not acting out of Christian concern. It is nothing more than old fashioned Gay Bashing. Those vendors are twisting a beautiful, forgiving and loving faith to a vile purpose: their own hateful homophobic disdain for a lifestyle they find to be 'icky'. Hardly a dogma to be respected, let alone protected by law.

You answered your own question, bub. Vendors provide services and goods. That is participation. And they have the right to choose their customers, just as customers have the right to not patronize a business.

Freedom, isn't it grand?

True, vendors can refuse service. For reasons including unruly behavior on the part of the customer, poor credit, lack of payment, inappropriate dress (no shoes, no shirt).

They cannot refuse service because they find the customer's lifestyle (which in the case of homosexuals is legal in all 50 states) 'icky'. Nor can they refuse services because the customer is a minority. Refusal due to sexual orientation is open, blatant and shameful discrimination. Not valid reasons for a business open to the public.

So if a Satanist walked into a Catholic Store to buy a cross, said he would use it in a Black Mass, the Catholic Store would be forced to sell the cross to him?

I would hope that the Catholics would sell him a crucifix if for nothing other than their desire to expose him to the passion and love Christ suffered through to bring light, love and forgiveness to the world.

Excellent non-answer.

Dodge,dip,duck,dive,dodge.

You got the answer the question deserved.

 

[martybegan]

You answered your own question, bub. Vendors provide services and goods. That is participation. And they have the right to choose their customers, just as customers have the right to not patronize a business.

Freedom, isn't it grand?

True, vendors can refuse service. For reasons including unruly behavior on the part of the customer, poor credit, lack of payment, inappropriate dress (no shoes, no shirt).

They cannot refuse service because they find the customer's lifestyle (which in the case of homosexuals is legal in all 50 states) 'icky'. Nor can they refuse services because the customer is a minority. Refusal due to sexual orientation is open, blatant and shameful discrimination. Not valid reasons for a business open to the public.

So if a Satanist walked into a Catholic Store to buy a cross, said he would use it in a Black Mass, the Catholic Store would be forced to sell the cross to him?

I would hope that the Catholics would sell him a crucifix if for nothing other than their desire to expose him to the passion and love Christ suffered through to bring light, love and forgiveness to the world.

Excellent non-answer.

Dodge,dip,duck,dive,dodge.

You got the answer the question deserved.

You dodged an actual answer because the one answer you want to give makes you look like an asshat.

 

[frigidweirdo]

How many times does "baking a cake" appear in the Christer bible?

Does the bible admonish people not to sin? Each sinful act doesn't have to be carefully enumerated. If you believe the act to be a sin, don't do it.

What if you have an act and if you do it, it's a sin, if you don't do it, it's a sin? Then what?

That is between the individual and God.

So you're basically saying that gay people need to be considerate towards religious people, but religious people can act however they like? So how is a gay person supposed to know what will and won't offend people? Why do they have to walk around as if egg shells are all over the floor to accommodate people who will use their religion as an excuse for anything?

No. Just understand that no means no. Will you use your artistry to make me a cake and set it up at my wedding. No. Simple.

No one has a right to the artistic talent of another, not for any reason. No artist, photographer, cake decorator, florist, no artist should ever be compelled to create against their will.

But we don't live in a society where you can do what you like.

"I don't want to pay taxes, no means no"
"I don't want to keep the noise down on my music, no means no"

Problem is you don't live in a country where anarchy reigns supreme. Sorry.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Does the bible admonish people not to sin? Each sinful act doesn't have to be carefully enumerated. If you believe the act to be a sin, don't do it.

Personally, I am fine with gays and lesbians being able to get married. My objections are to the forced participation of others in their plans.

Everyone has the Right To Be Left Alone.

They do. But not people who run businesses. They've signed up to something.

They do, however, have the choice to not run a business. Or to run a business in a manner that won't conflict with their religious beliefs.

It's like religious people setting up a shop selling devil worshiping things, but then not selling to devil worshipers. Kind of doesn't make sense.

Where in the constitution does it say you give up your rights when you open a business? More importantly, where does it say that public accommodation trumps ANY reason to not provide a service?

It doesn't. However there are things called LAWS. You can't just bypass laws. Also, you want people with businesses to have rights, but not the people who walk into a shop? It makes no sense.

and laws cannot subject a person to oppression if the right is protected constitutionally. The right to free exercise of religion is a constitutional right, thus if government wants to override that, it has to do so under the lightest burden possible, and only in situations that show an overwhelming government interest.

Two people's hurt feelings is not a compelling government interest, and fining the sellers into oblivion is not the lightest burden possible.

The Constitutional protection is that the govt won't interfere in religion. However all rights have limitations.

If you are religions and think that your son is possessed by demons, you cannot kill him, no matter how hard you shout your mouth off about religion, it's not going to save you.

The First Amendment doesn't protect someone who CHOOSES to open a business and make it public to then discriminate. It simply doesn't. They have the right not to sign up to this, there's their freedom for you.

The govt isn't forcing them to open a business. Last I saw I had not been forced to open a business, not forced to sign that I would not discriminate if I want to open my business. Have you?

 

[Nosmo King]

True, vendors can refuse service. For reasons including unruly behavior on the part of the customer, poor credit, lack of payment, inappropriate dress (no shoes, no shirt).

They cannot refuse service because they find the customer's lifestyle (which in the case of homosexuals is legal in all 50 states) 'icky'. Nor can they refuse services because the customer is a minority. Refusal due to sexual orientation is open, blatant and shameful discrimination. Not valid reasons for a business open to the public.

So if a Satanist walked into a Catholic Store to buy a cross, said he would use it in a Black Mass, the Catholic Store would be forced to sell the cross to him?

I would hope that the Catholics would sell him a crucifix if for nothing other than their desire to expose him to the passion and love Christ suffered through to bring light, love and forgiveness to the world.

Excellent non-answer.

Dodge,dip,duck,dive,dodge.

You got the answer the question deserved.

You dodged an actual answer because the one answer you want to give makes you look like an asshat.

The question suggested asshatery.

 

[Katzndogz]

Does the bible admonish people not to sin? Each sinful act doesn't have to be carefully enumerated. If you believe the act to be a sin, don't do it.

What if you have an act and if you do it, it's a sin, if you don't do it, it's a sin? Then what?

That is between the individual and God.

So you're basically saying that gay people need to be considerate towards religious people, but religious people can act however they like? So how is a gay person supposed to know what will and won't offend people? Why do they have to walk around as if egg shells are all over the floor to accommodate people who will use their religion as an excuse for anything?

No. Just understand that no means no. Will you use your artistry to make me a cake and set it up at my wedding. No. Simple.

No one has a right to the artistic talent of another, not for any reason. No artist, photographer, cake decorator, florist, no artist should ever be compelled to create against their will.

But we don't live in a society where you can do what you like.

"I don't want to pay taxes, no means no"
"I don't want to keep the noise down on my music, no means no"

Problem is you don't live in a country where anarchy reigns supreme. Sorry.

I said no and meant no. Can someone force you out of your house and into a concert hall where the music is too loud? Paying taxes is an arrangement between a citizen and the government. It does not involve the whims of another citizen.

We are supposed to live in a society where we do whst we like. It's called freedom. Why do you dislike it so much? What makes someone else's judgment on what you do better than your own? How personal does interference need to be before you say no?