Palestine Today

[montelatici]

Now we are getting down to the basics.

But true sovereignty belongs to the people, who in turn delegate it to their governments.

The People's Sovereignty​

If a government relinquishes that sovereignty it reverts back to the people for they are the true sovereigns. Occupying powers do not acquire sovereignty over occupied territory. The Palestinians have never relinquished sovereignty over Palestine.

Sure. Let's say I agree with you.

Neither have the Jewish people.

The Palestinians have been pushing for their rights for a hundred years. Where have the Jews been for the last couple thousand years? Not even the Jews living there mentioned sovereignty.

The Arabs in Palestine have been pushing for ALL the rights for a hundred years and denying the identical rights of the Jewish people. The Jewish people have been also pushing for their rights for a hundred years.

Why do you have so much trouble with BOTH?

I don't. It is the Zionists who want exclusive rights. Remember, it was the Zionists who kicked out 750,000 Palestinians in 1948 and continue to today.

And the Arabs kicked out 900,000 Jews.

The Jewish people have always accepted a divided territory. It has been the Arabs who consistently declined.

It's the Arabs who continually demand "end the occupation of 1948".

The Palestinians kicked no one out. The Palestinians rejected to have a third of their people relegated to Jew rule. If a third of the Jews had been relegated to Palestinian rule, the Jews would have rejected partition as well. You are so conditioned you can't see the truth.

 

[Shusha]

Sure. Let's say I agree with you.

Neither have the Jewish people.

The Palestinians have been pushing for their rights for a hundred years. Where have the Jews been for the last couple thousand years? Not even the Jews living there mentioned sovereignty.

The Arabs in Palestine have been pushing for ALL the rights for a hundred years and denying the identical rights of the Jewish people. The Jewish people have been also pushing for their rights for a hundred years.

Why do you have so much trouble with BOTH?

I don't. It is the Zionists who want exclusive rights. Remember, it was the Zionists who kicked out 750,000 Palestinians in 1948 and continue to today.

And the Arabs kicked out 900,000 Jews.

The Jewish people have always accepted a divided territory. It has been the Arabs who consistently declined.

It's the Arabs who continually demand "end the occupation of 1948".

The Palestinians kicked no one out. The Palestinians rejected to have a third of their people relegated to Jew rule. If a third of the Jews had been relegated to Palestinian rule, the Jews would have rejected partition as well. You are so conditioned you can't see the truth.

Really? So its the Arabs living in Israel today that are the obstacle to peace because "Jew rule"?

 

[P F Tinmore]

ARTICLE 3 Convention on Rights and Duties of States
The political existence of the state is independent of recognition by the other states. Even before recognition the state has the right to defend its integrity and independence,

CABLEGRAM DATED 28 SEPTEMBER 1948 FROM THE PREMIER AND
ACTING FOREIGN SECRETARY OF ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT
TO THE SECRETARY-GENERAL CONCERNING
CONSTITUTION OF ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT

I HAVE THE HONOR TO INFORM YOUR EXCELLENCY THAT IN VIRTUE OF THE NATURAL RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE OF PALESTINE FOR SELF-DETERMINATION WHICH PRINCIPLE IS SUPPORTED BY THE CHARTERS OF THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS, THE UNITED NATIONS AND OTHERS AND IN VIEW OF THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE OVER PALESTINE WHICH HAD PREVENTED THE ARABS FROM EXERCISING THEIR INDEPENDENCE, THE ARABS OF PALESTINE WHO ARE THE OWNERS OF THE COUNTRY AND ITS INDIGENOUS INHABITANTS AND WHO CONSTITUTE THE GREAT MAJORITY OF ITS LEGAL POPULATION HAVE SOLEMNLY RESOLVED TO DECLARE PALESTINE IN ITS ENTIRETY AND WITHIN ITS BOUNDARIES AS ESTABLISHED BEFORE THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE AN INDEPENDENT STATE AND CONSTITUTED A GOVERNMENT UNDER THE NAME OF THE ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT DERIVING ITS AUTHORITY FROM A REPRESENTATIVE COUNCIL BASED ON DEMOCRATIC PRINCIPLES AND AIMING TO SAFEGUARD THE RIGHTS OF MINORITIES AND FOREIGNERS PROTECT THE HOLY PLACES AND GUARANTEE FREEDOM OF WORSHIP TO ALL COMMUNITIES

AHMED HILMI PASHA
PREMIER AND ACTING FOREIGN SECRETARY

 

[P F Tinmore]

Dr. Karma Nabulsi

'A Real Education: Learning from Anti-Colonial Struggles'

 

[P F Tinmore]

And the Arabs kicked out 900,000 Jews.

Nice deflection. The Palestinians had nothing to do with that.

Give me a break. The Arab collective was working together at the time. And they certainly had to do with all Jews kicked out of Arab "Palestine".

But speaking of deflection, why don't we deal with today. If you truly believe in BOTH as you claim, why hasn't the territory already been divided? Who is holding that up?

why hasn't the territory already been divided? Who is holding that up?

It is not "the territory" it is Palestine. It is the Palestinians who have the right to decide if they want to divide their country or not. They chose the same as any other people would.

 

[Shusha]

And the Arabs kicked out 900,000 Jews.

Nice deflection. The Palestinians had nothing to do with that.

Give me a break. The Arab collective was working together at the time. And they certainly had to do with all Jews kicked out of Arab "Palestine".

But speaking of deflection, why don't we deal with today. If you truly believe in BOTH as you claim, why hasn't the territory already been divided? Who is holding that up?

why hasn't the territory already been divided? Who is holding that up?

It is not "the territory" it is Palestine. It is the Palestinians who have the right to decide if they want to divide their country or not. They chose the same as any other people would.

How quickly the "I support both peoples" turns out to be a fat hairy lie.

BOTH types of Palestinians want self-determination.

 

[P F Tinmore]

'P Is for Palestine': A controversial Sunday story time

It was a perfect Sunday activity for toddlers: story time, followed by games and food.


And while the kids assembled at the Children’s Community School of West Philadelphia were all about the Cheddar Bunnies and mini-jungle gym, for the parents it was a celebration of inclusion and resistance.

P Is for Palestine, written by Iranian-born Golbarg Bashi, an instructor of Middle Eastern Studies at Rutgers University, was chosen as much for the colorful photos and rhymes as it was for the controversy it has created.

“We are trying to figure out how to respond to the negative publicity,” Alissa Wise, 38, a rabbi and deputy director at the Jewish Voice for Peace. She organized the small group of about 20 preschoolers and their parents who gathered for the Sunday activity.

It wasn’t “A is for Arabic, my tongue, a language that’s the 4th biggest ever sung” or even that “B is for Bethlehem,” or “C is for Christmas,” that stirred the controversy. It was “I is for Intifada, Intifada is Arabic for rising up for what is right, if you are a kid or grownup!”

'P Is for Palestine': A controversial Sunday story time

 

[Hollie]

“D” is for Death Cult”

Fatah Social Media Accounts Glorify Armed Struggle Against Israel, Incite To Violence


Emphasizing The Armed Struggle Against Israel And Inciting To Violence

In addition, the official Fatah Facebook and Twitter accounts published messages supporting the armed struggle. Thus, for example, on its Twitter account, it posted a tweet with a quote by Yasser Arafat: "Oh fighters, a stronger grip on the rifle's steel will bring victory. The decision is in your hands, and the future and victory belong to you."[3]

 

[P F Tinmore]

Rania Khalek

 

[Hollie]

There is no misconception about Islamist ideology.


Fatah Social Media Accounts Glorify Armed Struggle Against Israel, Incite To Violence


Fatah Branch's Facebook Page: Inciting Terror Attacks, Denying Recognition Of Israel's Right To Exist

Additional messages inciting to violence were also posted in recent weeks on the Facebook page of the Fatah branch in Al-Doha village, in the Bethlehem area, following President Trump's announcement of recognition of Jerusalem as Israel's capital. Thus, for example, on December 18, 2017, the page posted an image of a gunman along with the Fatah movement's emblem, the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades insignia, and a map of greater Palestine. The caption states that these borders are "the only red line."[4]

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Palestine Today
※→ P F Tinemore, et al,

Yes ••• We've all seen this before. This is a very lame attempt by the Egyptians to have a Proxy to make a claim. The "All Palestine Government" (APG) was decommissioned in 1959 by the Egyptian Government.

This was proclaimed about 4 months after the May 1948 Provisional Israeli Government announced, immediately upon the termination of the Mandate, on 15 May 1948, its independence.

ARTICLE 3 Convention on Rights and Duties of States
The political existence of the state is independent of recognition by the other states. Even before recognition the state has the right to defend its integrity and independence,

CABLEGRAM DATED 28 SEPTEMBER 1948 FROM THE PREMIER AND
ACTING FOREIGN SECRETARY OF ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT
TO THE SECRETARY-GENERAL CONCERNING
CONSTITUTION OF ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT

I HAVE THE HONOR TO INFORM YOUR EXCELLENCY THAT IN VIRTUE OF THE NATURAL RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE OF PALESTINE FOR SELF-DETERMINATION WHICH PRINCIPLE IS SUPPORTED BY THE CHARTERS OF THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS, THE UNITED NATIONS AND OTHERS AND IN VIEW OF THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE OVER PALESTINE WHICH HAD PREVENTED THE ARABS FROM EXERCISING THEIR INDEPENDENCE, THE ARABS OF PALESTINE WHO ARE THE OWNERS OF THE COUNTRY AND ITS INDIGENOUS INHABITANTS AND WHO CONSTITUTE THE GREAT MAJORITY OF ITS LEGAL POPULATION HAVE SOLEMNLY RESOLVED TO DECLARE PALESTINE IN ITS ENTIRETY AND WITHIN ITS BOUNDARIES AS ESTABLISHED BEFORE THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE AN INDEPENDENT STATE AND CONSTITUTED A GOVERNMENT UNDER THE NAME OF THE ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT DERIVING ITS AUTHORITY FROM A REPRESENTATIVE COUNCIL BASED ON DEMOCRATIC PRINCIPLES AND AIMING TO SAFEGUARD THE RIGHTS OF MINORITIES AND FOREIGNERS PROTECT THE HOLY PLACES AND GUARANTEE FREEDOM OF WORSHIP TO ALL COMMUNITIES

AHMED HILMI PASHA
PREMIER AND ACTING FOREIGN SECRETARY

(COMMENT)

AND, as you've all no doubt seen, the May 1948 Questions on Palestine (S-766 22 May 1948) that were answered, made during the hostile engagement with the Forces of the Arab League and before the UN Negotiated Armistice.

You will notice that four separate Armistice Agreements were made; not including a separate agreement with the APG. You should also notice that the Armistice Lines were not true and final borders. That these lines could change and the change reflected in the Peace Agreement.

Finally, as everyone in the discussion knows, that the Peace Treaty between the countries of Egypt and Jordan • with Israel established the borders which are relevant to the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

This was proclaimed about 4 months after the May 1948 Provisional Israeli Government announced, immediately upon the termination of the Mandate, on 15 May 1948, its independence.

So?

 

[P F Tinmore]

You will notice that four separate Armistice Agreements were made; not including a separate agreement with the APG.

They were not a party to the war.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Palestine Today
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

The Palestinians have no right to claim that which is already in the hands of Israeli Sovereignty.

This was proclaimed about 4 months after the May 1948 Provisional Israeli Government announced, immediately upon the termination of the Mandate, on 15 May 1948, its independence.

So?

(COMMENT)

• The Arab Palestinians have right, freedom or permission to do something (establish independence and sovereignty) and there are no obligations on the part of the Israelis to facilitate that right or not do anything in the furtherance of that right.

• The Arab Palestinian have no right (to establish independence and sovereignty) which compels the Israelis to relinquish anything that is within their right (to establish independence and sovereignty) or enforce an action as a necessary forfeiture to of their rights.

• The Arab Palestinians have no right that is absolute. To say that Arab Palestinians have a right (to establish independence and sovereignty) is to say that the Arab Palestinians have no duty not to do the same (to establish independence and sovereignty).​

The Israelis declared "independence and sovereignty" before the "Arab Palestinian." The Israelis made a declaration covering the a portion of the territory previous under the Mandate. The Arab Palestinians come forth afterwards and make the same claim and right ("independence and sovereignty") to the entirety of the territory previous under the Mandate.

Just because the Arab Palestinian makes a claim and can find a right which is associated with the claim, does not mean that any other nation or state have and obligation to take actin and to relinquish something that helps further that claim.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Palestine Today
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

Exactly!

You will notice that four separate Armistice Agreements were made; not including a separate agreement with the APG.

They were not a party to the war.

(COMMENT)

They were not a party to the Armistice because they were not a sovereign party. An Armistice Agreement falls under Article 2 of the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties: "Vienna Convention Law Treaties" an international agreement concluded between States in written form and governed by international law. The Arab Palestinians rejected all offers to participate in the self-governing processes. The one most applicable was the offer to participate with the UN Palestine Commission.

In any event, it was previously agreed that once Permanent Peace arrangements were put in place → the Armistice Agreements would dissolve...

"The Armistice shall remain in force until a peaceful settlement between the Parties is achieved."​

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Palestine Today
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

The Palestinians have no right to claim that which is already in the hands of Israeli Sovereignty.

This was proclaimed about 4 months after the May 1948 Provisional Israeli Government announced, immediately upon the termination of the Mandate, on 15 May 1948, its independence.

So?

(COMMENT)

• The Arab Palestinians have right, freedom or permission to do something (establish independence and sovereignty) and there are no obligations on the part of the Israelis to facilitate that right or not do anything in the furtherance of that right.

• The Arab Palestinian have no right (to establish independence and sovereignty) which compels the Israelis to relinquish anything that is within their right (to establish independence and sovereignty) or enforce an action as a necessary forfeiture to of their rights.

• The Arab Palestinians have no right that is absolute. To say that Arab Palestinians have a right (to establish independence and sovereignty) is to say that the Arab Palestinians have no duty not to do the same (to establish independence and sovereignty).​

The Israelis declared "independence and sovereignty" before the "Arab Palestinian." The Israelis made a declaration covering the a portion of the territory previous under the Mandate. The Arab Palestinians come forth afterwards and make the same claim and right ("independence and sovereignty") to the entirety of the territory previous under the Mandate.

Just because the Arab Palestinian makes a claim and can find a right which is associated with the claim, does not mean that any other nation or state have and obligation to take actin and to relinquish something that helps further that claim.

Most Respectfully,
R

The Israelis made a declaration covering the a portion of the territory previous under the Mandate.

Here is where you are deep into Israeli propaganda shit. That there was no Palestine. That the Mandate was Palestine. That when the Mandate left Palestine the territory was up for grabs.

I would like to see a 1948 map of Israel within its defined territory so we can see where the Palestinian's declaration encroaches on Israel's defined territory.

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Palestine Today
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

Exactly!

You will notice that four separate Armistice Agreements were made; not including a separate agreement with the APG.

They were not a party to the war.

(COMMENT)

They were not a party to the Armistice because they were not a sovereign party. An Armistice Agreement falls under Article 2 of the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties: "Vienna Convention Law Treaties" an international agreement concluded between States in written form and governed by international law. The Arab Palestinians rejected all offers to participate in the self-governing processes. The one most applicable was the offer to participate with the UN Palestine Commission.

In any event, it was previously agreed that once Permanent Peace arrangements were put in place → the Armistice Agreements would dissolve...

"The Armistice shall remain in force until a peaceful settlement between the Parties is achieved."​

Most Respectfully,
R

It is interesting that the Armistice Agreements mention Palestine many times but never mentioned a place called Israel.

Palestine's international borders are mentioned but no borders were mentioned for Israel.

It was like a place called Israel did not exist but Palestine did.

 

[rylah]

RE: Palestine Today
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

Exactly!

You will notice that four separate Armistice Agreements were made; not including a separate agreement with the APG.

They were not a party to the war.

(COMMENT)

They were not a party to the Armistice because they were not a sovereign party. An Armistice Agreement falls under Article 2 of the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties: "Vienna Convention Law Treaties" an international agreement concluded between States in written form and governed by international law. The Arab Palestinians rejected all offers to participate in the self-governing processes. The one most applicable was the offer to participate with the UN Palestine Commission.

In any event, it was previously agreed that once Permanent Peace arrangements were put in place → the Armistice Agreements would dissolve...

"The Armistice shall remain in force until a peaceful settlement between the Parties is achieved."​

Most Respectfully,
R

It is interesting that the Armistice Agreements mention Palestine many times but never mentioned a place called Israel.

Palestine's international borders are mentioned but no borders were mentioned for Israel.

It was like a place called Israel did not exist but Palestine did.

So they negotiated with the only effective sovereign govt of Palestine - Israeli govt.
Did they negotiate with anyone else?

 

[ForeverYoung436]

RE: Palestine Today
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

Exactly!

You will notice that four separate Armistice Agreements were made; not including a separate agreement with the APG.

They were not a party to the war.

(COMMENT)

They were not a party to the Armistice because they were not a sovereign party. An Armistice Agreement falls under Article 2 of the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties: "Vienna Convention Law Treaties" an international agreement concluded between States in written form and governed by international law. The Arab Palestinians rejected all offers to participate in the self-governing processes. The one most applicable was the offer to participate with the UN Palestine Commission.

In any event, it was previously agreed that once Permanent Peace arrangements were put in place → the Armistice Agreements would dissolve...

"The Armistice shall remain in force until a peaceful settlement between the Parties is achieved."​

Most Respectfully,
R

It is interesting that the Armistice Agreements mention Palestine many times but never mentioned a place called Israel.

Palestine's international borders are mentioned but no borders were mentioned for Israel.

It was like a place called Israel did not exist but Palestine did.

Israel is not mentioned in the Armistice Agreements for the same reason Palestine is not mentioned in the Lausanne Treaty--its presence is assumed. The word "Israeli" is mentioned in the Agreements though.

 

[P F Tinmore]