Palestinian children tortured, used as shields by Israel: U.N.

[MHunterB]

No, they do not. Not documented, Amnesty found no evidence it happened In ttheir investigstion of Cast Lead. I renounce Zionist Hasbara.

Firing from civlian areas IS using human shields. Stop lying, you're not fooling anyone.

What if they are in an area where it's all civilian areas? Gaza is densly populated.

Not ALL of Gaza is densely populated. And the rockets are *indiscriminate* meaning it doesn't really matter from where they're launched. They are obviously launched from well within Gaza - or there wouldn't have been Gazans killed by rockets when they fall short.

 

[MHunterB]

Repeating the same lie over and over and over does not make it true. Amnesty investigation the claims of the use of human shields by Israel and Hamas. They incovered multiple incidents of Israel using civilians as human shields. They found no evidence Hamas did it.

Well, at least the bolded part is correct. Continuing to pretend that Jesus lived in 'Palestine' is pretty rancid - so is presuming to lecture everyone that HAMAS never perpetrates war crimes.

Especially when the poster itself has brought the definition of 'human shiedls' to the discussion - and it' been amply demonstrated that HAMAS' launching rockets form schoolyards, etc NOT during 'Cast Lead' constituted 'using human shields' under that definition.

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

Four Palestinian children seized in Qalqilya by occupation soldiers

"*The Independent Middle East Media Centre reported that local sources in Azzoun village, east of the northern West Bank city of Qalqilia, have reported that dozens of Israeli soldiers invaded the village, on Sunday at dawn [June 23 2013], and kidnapped four children.The sources said that the army broke into several homes, and violently searched them, before kidnapping four children identified as Monther Salim, 14, Mahdi Ayman Majd, 15, Abdul-Karim Hussein, 16, and Maher Hasan Abu Tneina, 16.The kidnapped children have been cuffed and blindfolded, before the army took them to an unknown destination.In related news, soldiers stationed at the Container Roadblock, north of Bethlehem, kidnapped on Sunday evening, one Palestinian identified as Yousef Ahmad Abu Hashem, 19, from Beit Ummar town, north of the southern West Bank city of Hebron.Samidoun: Palestinian Prisoner Solidarity Network » Four Palestinian children seized in Qalqilya by occupation soldiers " The attacks on children by Israel continue.

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

]Repeating the same lie over and over and over does not make it true.[/B] Amnesty investigation the claims of the use of human shields by Israel and Hamas. They incovered multiple incidents of Israel using civilians as human shields. They found no evidence Hamas did it.

Well, at least the bolded part is correct. Continuing to pretend that Jesus lived in 'Palestine' is pretty rancid - so is presuming to lecture everyone that HAMAS never perpetrates war crimes.

Especially when the poster itself has brought the definition of 'human shiedls' to the discussion - and it' been amply demonstrated that HAMAS' launching rockets form schoolyards, etc NOT during 'Cast Lead' constituted 'using human shields' under that definition.

The human rights groups investigated and found Hamas did not use civilians as human shields, during and after Cast Lead. And they identify Israels use of Palestinian civilians that include children as human shields. And Jesus did live and shows us who God is and He lived in Palestine. Jesus was a Palestinian Jew who lived in Palestine.

 

[MHunterB]

Four Palestinian children seized in Qalqilya by occupation soldiers

"*The Independent Middle East Media Centre reported that local sources in Azzoun village, east of the northern West Bank city of Qalqilia, have reported that dozens of Israeli soldiers invaded the village, on Sunday at dawn [June 23 2013], and kidnapped four children.The sources said that the army broke into several homes, and violently searched them, before kidnapping four children identified as Monther Salim, 14, Mahdi Ayman Majd, 15, Abdul-Karim Hussein, 16, and Maher Hasan Abu Tneina, 16.The kidnapped children have been cuffed and blindfolded, before the army took them to an unknown destination.In related news, soldiers stationed at the Container Roadblock, north of Bethlehem, kidnapped on Sunday evening, one Palestinian identified as Yousef Ahmad Abu Hashem, 19, from Beit Ummar town, north of the southern West Bank city of Hebron.Samidoun: Palestinian Prisoner Solidarity Network » Four Palestinian children seized in Qalqilya by occupation soldiers " The attacks on children by Israel continue.

Who cares how the lying filth propagandists for terrorist HAMAS spin things and psychotic HAMAS whores spew the pigshit they post?

No amount of posting 'trash talk' about the IDF can possibly change the fact that .......
HAMAS has indeed been found to have used 'human shields' under the GC definition. It will also never change the fact HAMAS daily abuse children by continuing to shoot rockets *indiscriminately* into Israel - for the express purpose, as their own spokespersons have stated, of maiming and murdering civilian Israelis.

Anyone who persists in denying those war crimes and crimes against humanity which are DAILY committed by HAMAS is not telling the 'Truth' about this conflict.

 

[MHunterB]

]Repeating the same lie over and over and over does not make it true.[/B] Amnesty investigation the claims of the use of human shields by Israel and Hamas. They incovered multiple incidents of Israel using civilians as human shields. They found no evidence Hamas did it.

Well, at least the bolded part is correct. Continuing to pretend that Jesus lived in 'Palestine' is pretty rancid - so is presuming to lecture everyone that HAMAS never perpetrates war crimes.

Especially when the poster itself has brought the definition of 'human shiedls' to the discussion - and it' been amply demonstrated that HAMAS' launching rockets form schoolyards, etc NOT during 'Cast Lead' constituted 'using human shields' under that definition.

The human rights groups investigated and found Hamas did not use civilians as human shields, during and after Cast Lead. And they identify Israels use of Palestinian civilians that include children as human shields. And Jesus did live and shows us who God is and He lived in Palestine. Jesus was a Palestinian Jew who lived in Palestine.

Wow, lying to whitewash HAMAS' war crimes and crimes against humanity - how very low.

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

What I reject is ZioNazi Propaganda making claims that human rights groups do not confirm as true. The thread addresses a UN Report discussing Israels use of children as human shields and other abuses against children by Israel. It does not address Hamas carrying out such acts because human rights groups have not made a finding Hamas engages in such acts

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

Well, at least the bolded part is correct. Continuing to pretend that Jesus lived in 'Palestine' is pretty rancid - so is presuming to lecture everyone that HAMAS never perpetrates war crimes.

Especially when the poster itself has brought the definition of 'human shiedls' to the discussion - and it' been amply demonstrated that HAMAS' launching rockets form schoolyards, etc NOT during 'Cast Lead' constituted 'using human shields' under that definition.

The human rights groups investigated and found Hamas did not use civilians as human shields, during and after Cast Lead. And they identify Israels use of Palestinian civilians that include children as human shields. And Jesus did live and shows us who God is and He lived in Palestine. Jesus was a Palestinian Jew who lived in Palestine.

Wow, lying to whitewash HAMAS' war crimes and crimes against humanity - how very low.

300 reports by human rights groups were written, addressed by Professor Norman Finklestein in a video I posted earlier, about CL after about 1 year. NONE found Hamas used civilians as human shields in Cast Lead. The following groups all made findings Israel used civilians and children as human shields and none made findings Hamas did, to include Amnesty and DCI Palestine and Btselem and HRW and the Goldstone Commission.

 

[MHunterB]

We're all internet nobodies.

Are the Palestinians oblicaged to justify their actions to you? Yet you condemn those actions.

Yeah... I'm going out on a real limb when I condemn them for murdering civilians (including their own), teaching children to be terrorists, and advocating the destruction of Israel.

The difference is, unlike you, I do have a direct connection to these issues.

There is no requirement that one has to have a "direct connection" to the issues to discuss them or have an opinion nor does the "direct connection" make a person's opinion any more valid, it just makes for a double standard.

I don't think there's necessarily a 'double standard': I think all the poster's trying to say is that SOME of us have family directly involved and DO have firsthand experience of facets of the situation. Considering that all 'reporting' is indeed 'interpretation', and how often we are seeing bias in reporting from all manner of media - I think that 'direct experience' is indeed worth something.

EX: There have been statements made on this site alleging that Israeli hospitals are 'segregated'/refuse to treat Palestinians. Hadassah Hospital - which was specifically mentioned! - has no such policy nor practice. And that fact is easily documented by a glance at the list of their staff members.

It's part of the professional standards in the field of historical study to use 'primary' sources over 'secondary' ones. The HMO staff list is a 'primary' source: my stating that it contains Palestinian and other Arab individuals in prominent positions is a 'secondary' source. And the other poster's assertion that HMO would refuse to treat someone because they were Palestinian is malignant fantasy.

THAT is where differentiating between someone who's quoting based on ideological dogma and someone who can give direct information is important.

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

I think some of what is addressed in the last post arguably makes certain posters biased. ANd there were reports that after Cast Lead, some of the injured were turned away from Hadassah Hospital. I posted about that earlier.

 

[MHunterB]

The human rights groups investigated and found Hamas did not use civilians as human shields, during and after Cast Lead. And they identify Israels use of Palestinian civilians that include children as human shields. And Jesus did live and shows us who God is and He lived in Palestine. Jesus was a Palestinian Jew who lived in Palestine.

Wow, lying to whitewash HAMAS' war crimes and crimes against humanity - how very low.

300 reports by human rights groups were written, addressed by Professor Norman Finklestein in a video I posted earlier, about CL after about 1 year. NONE found Hamas used civilians as human shields in Cast Lead. The following groups all made findings Israel used civilians and children as human shields and none made findings Hamas did, to include Amnesty and DCI Palestine and Btselem and HRW and the Goldstone Commission.

The 'reply' is patently false and irrelevant: the discussion has been BROADER than CL, for one thing. The GC definition of 'human shields' has been specified, and HAMAS' firing of rockets from schoolyards, etc, does meet that definition.

HAMAS has indeed used civilian Palestinians as human shields. HAMAS has committed war crimes and crimes against humanity by firing rockets into Israel *indiscriminately* - as described by HAMAS spokespersons! - with the intent to main and murder Israeli civilians

To deny the truth of the bolded blue statements is renders every word one posts on the topic worthless HAMAS propaganda, verbal pigshit - and dirties the Palestinian flag. Speaking of 'proud terrorist supporters'.........

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

The human rights groups have documented Israel uses civillians to include children as human shields. And they document other abuses against children, like using WP unlawfully, like unlawful detentions, like unlawful home demolitions, like torture. And that is the topic of the thread, not unfounded allegations alleging the other side uses human shields of biased posters not supported by findings of human rights groups.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

It is evident that Israeli operatives and their helpers in the US facilitated the attack of 9/11 in order to rouse the US to fight Israel's battles and "secure the realm".

That's all I need to know about Israel.

Dude, clearly your tin foil hat is on too tight and you've smoked way too much of the grassy knoll.

 

[Coyote]

There is no requirement that one has to have a "direct connection" to the issues to discuss them or have an opinion nor does the "direct connection" make a person's opinion any more valid, it just makes for a double standard.

Oh give it a rest, Peyote. You may have the power to interpret board rules, but you don't get to decide what opinions are compelling.

Go take a trip to Israel and learn something. You're not going to gain any insight from reading Wikipedia and watching YouTube.

I agree. Some people here have expressed the opinion that Arabs live as second-class citizens in Israel proper. They should go and see for themselves.

While Arabs in Israel likely live with more rights then they would have in surrounding countries there are well documented inequalities and denying it doesn't make it go away. It's one of the reasons why it is so frustrating to debate with certain Pro-Israeli factions because they pretend Israel can't possibly do anything wrong. I don't even claim that for my own country. Inequities in settlement and expansion permits, land confiscation, education funding, water allocation and the justice system. Sure there are Arab MP's - but pre-civil rights era US also had token black elected officials.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

Oh give it a rest, Peyote. You may have the power to interpret board rules, but you don't get to decide what opinions are compelling.

Go take a trip to Israel and learn something. You're not going to gain any insight from reading Wikipedia and watching YouTube.

I agree. Some people here have expressed the opinion that Arabs live as second-class citizens in Israel proper. They should go and see for themselves.

While Arabs in Israel likely live with more rights then they would have in surrounding countries there are well documented inequalities and denying it doesn't make it go away. It's one of the reasons why it is so frustrating to debate with certain Pro-Israeli factions because they pretend Israel can't possibly do anything wrong. I don't even claim that for my own country. Inequities in settlement and expansion permits, land confiscation, education funding, water allocation and the justice system. Sure there are Arab MP's - but pre-civil rights era US also had token black elected officials.

I don't think anyone believes that Israel is beyond criticism, but you can't simply brush aside comparisons to neighboring countries.

Israel has one of the toughest tasks in the world: maintaing a civil society in the face of constant threats and security issues. Mistakes are made along the way, but the moral compass remains true.

 

[Coyote]

Yeah... I'm going out on a real limb when I condemn them for murdering civilians (including their own), teaching children to be terrorists, and advocating the destruction of Israel.

The difference is, unlike you, I do have a direct connection to these issues.

There is no requirement that one has to have a "direct connection" to the issues to discuss them or have an opinion nor does the "direct connection" make a person's opinion any more valid, it just makes for a double standard.

I don't think there's necessarily a 'double standard': I think all the poster's trying to say is that SOME of us have family directly involved and DO have firsthand experience of facets of the situation. Considering that all 'reporting' is indeed 'interpretation', and how often we are seeing bias in reporting from all manner of media - I think that 'direct experience' is indeed worth something.

I realize that, but consider this - having direct involvement can also create a bias and the only poster we had here from the Palestinian side was BiK - we lack a counter balance as BiK seldom posts. Everything has it's own bias - but there is no reason to assume direct experience can somehow be worth more than more objective reporting - in fact, I think it's likely to be more subjective. We're only human after all.

EX: There have been statements made on this site alleging that Israeli hospitals are 'segregated'/refuse to treat Palestinians. Hadassah Hospital - which was specifically mentioned! - has no such policy nor practice. And that fact is easily documented by a glance at the list of their staff members.

As you say - easily documented.

It's part of the professional standards in the field of historical study to use 'primary' sources over 'secondary' ones. The HMO staff list is a 'primary' source: my stating that it contains Palestinian and other Arab individuals in prominent positions is a 'secondary' source. And the other poster's assertion that HMO would refuse to treat someone because they were Palestinian is malignant fantasy.

THAT is where differentiating between someone who's quoting based on ideological dogma and someone who can give direct information is important.

If you can substantiate a claim, I have no problem with it - which is what I've tried to do with the human shield argument. It is a case where the courts have outlawed it (but the IDF protested that decision) yet some units continue to engage in it. Those with "direct experience" won't even consider that this is a flaw in IDF, it's just roundly denied nor excused as a few bad apples. No one is saying Israel is worse than Hamas in the human rights department, Hamas lacks any credibility at this point in regards to an impartial justice system or appreciation of human rights. That doesn't excuse Israel's use of human shields though and in particular a military culture that still deems it ok while simultaneously condemning Hamas' use of civilian centers to launch attacks.

Good post Marge - I always appreciate your thoughtful replies

 

[Coyote]

I agree. Some people here have expressed the opinion that Arabs live as second-class citizens in Israel proper. They should go and see for themselves.

While Arabs in Israel likely live with more rights then they would have in surrounding countries there are well documented inequalities and denying it doesn't make it go away. It's one of the reasons why it is so frustrating to debate with certain Pro-Israeli factions because they pretend Israel can't possibly do anything wrong. I don't even claim that for my own country. Inequities in settlement and expansion permits, land confiscation, education funding, water allocation and the justice system. Sure there are Arab MP's - but pre-civil rights era US also had token black elected officials.

I don't think anyone believes that Israel is beyond criticism, but you can't simply brush aside comparisons to neighboring countries.

No, you can't - but it's dangerous when use a comparison to other countries as a means to justify continued abuses within your own. That is my frustration with the argument.

Israel has one of the toughest tasks in the world: maintaing a civil society in the face of constant threats and security issues. Mistakes are made along the way, but the moral compass remains true.

I agree - overall, Israel's moral compass is a good one. I think the bulk of Israeli society is true to it, but it has a small but politically strong group of extremists that would rather not open up discourse on the real injustices that do occur. It's almost as if they think admitting it and addressing it would destroy Israel. It's not much different than in the US, where a small but loud group considers any criticism of our country to be unpatriotic and you get labeled an "America hater".

 

[HistoryBefore67]

No, you can't - but it's dangerous when use a comparison to other countries as a means to justify continued abuses within your own.

I agree - overall, Israel's moral compass is a good one.

Here is where I have an issue with your comments. The term "abuses" implies deliberate actions. Then you state that you agree that Israel's moral compass is a good one. These seem to be inconsistent statements.

If you are merely stating that certain "abuses" occur on occasion by those acting outside of Israel's policy, then I won't disagree with you (though I believe that Israel's missteps are often magnified out of proportion by its detractors). If you believe Israel's policies are "abusive," then I strongly disagree with you.

 

[Indofred]

There was I, posting a thread about yet more war crimes committed by the Israeli government and IDf, expecting some calm debate on the subject but what is absent is condemnation.
We've had one attempt but that was qualified with miserable excuses about it may not have actually happened.
The same pro Israeli posters rant on about lack of Muslim condemnation of attacks.

What a pathetic bunch of two faced sods they turn out to be.

However, the fact is this; every group except the Israelis and their supporters agree, Israel is guilty of many war crimes.

Short of anything else, we know settlements are built on occupied lands against the letter of international law but Israel, the only country to do so, says that law is wrong and/or doesn't apply to that apartheid state.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

However, the fact is this; every group except the Israelis and their supporters agree, Israel is guilty of many war crimes.

Yeah... and the fact that there are about 1.6 billion Muslims in the world and less than 14 million Jews has NOTHING to do with the "World opinion" on these issues...