***Paul Krugman admits DEATH PANELS***

[Antares]

Your words

g's words.....

You are weeks behind the curve: NYT's Paul Krugman: Pay For Entitlements With Death Panels

You apparently have heard of them....

Now what is the Dec page and what does it do?

 

[Antares]

Your words kid....

g's words.....


Every insurance company does this. They would bleed money if they paid for treatments that had no efficacy.

Man up kid, what are Dec pages and what do they do?

 

[francoHFW]

OP- No, he admitted end of life counseling with family and doctors- paid for by insurance, since 80% of one's health costs now are in the last 3 weeks, because there isn't such a thing, just hospitals happily running up the tab for no good reason, dupes.

 

[Antares]

You go ahead and scream about how you've one.

Night little guy.

 

[g5000]

Your words kid....

g's words.....


Every insurance company does this. They would bleed money if they paid for treatments that had no efficacy.

Man up kid, what are Dec pages and what do they do?

Yep. My words. Which is why your diversion about declaration pages was a non sequitur.

It's a shame, really, none of you bozos have ever bothered to find these "death panels" in ObamaCare.

I'm actually virulently opposed to ObamaCare, but my reasons are valid. This death panels shit is not.

Seriously, find those alleged death panels in the legislation for your own sake and get your head on straight so you don't make an ass of yourself when you blindly wade into a conversation about them.

 

[NYcarbineer]

So conservatives want the government to fund every medical procedure/treatment/option available to keep anyone alive for as long as possible, for any reason, if that's what the person wants?

Really?

Don't make us laugh.

That is awesome! First you guys claim that death panels would "never" happen and this was all "right-wing propaganda".

Now, all of a sudden, the new narrative is "well yeah, what do you want, the government to pay for people to live for ever"?

God damn, this is conservative GOLD here! You can't buy this kind of comedy....

Answer the question.

 

[NYcarbineer]

So conservatives want the government to fund every medical procedure/treatment/option available to keep anyone alive for as long as possible, for any reason, if that's what the person wants?

Really?

Don't make us laugh.

(hint stupid: what conservatives actually want is for government to get the fuck out of the medical industry)

We know. Which would mean if you are poor, you'd go without healthcare. Everyone's health would be directly tied to their ability to pay.

The conservative version of the 'death panel' is,

you get no help, with anything, period.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Every problem with the Health Care industry, like so many of today's problems lie with the Democratic Party and those people who want a huge centralized Government to care for them from cradle to grave.

Look at the Constitution and the powers it actually confers upon the President and the Congress...


Could you imagine how much better off we would be today if these limits were actually followed for the past 200 years, especially the past 100?

Article 1 - The Legislative Branch
Section 8 - Powers of Congress
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.



Article 1 - The Legislative Branch
Section 9 - Limits on Congress
The Migration or Importation of such Persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the Year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a tax or duty may be imposed on such Importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each Person.

The privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.

No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.

(No capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless in Proportion to the Census or Enumeration herein before directed to be taken.) (Section in parentheses clarified by the 16th Amendment.)

No Tax or Duty shall be laid on Articles exported from any State.

No Preference shall be given by any Regulation of Commerce or Revenue to the Ports of one State over those of another: nor shall Vessels bound to, or from, one State, be obliged to enter, clear, or pay Duties in another.

No Money shall be drawn from the Treasury, but in Consequence of Appropriations made by Law; and a regular Statement and Account of the Receipts and Expenditures of all public Money shall be published from time to time.

No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince or foreign State.



Article 2 - The Executive Branch
Section 2 - Civilian Power Over Military, Cabinet, Pardon Power, Appointments
The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States; he may require the Opinion, in writing, of the principal Officer in each of the executive Departments, upon any subject relating to the Duties of their respective Offices, and he shall have Power to Grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offenses against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.

He shall have Power, by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, to make Treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur; and he shall nominate, and by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, shall appoint Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, Judges of the supreme Court, and all other Officers of the United States, whose Appointments are not herein otherwise provided for, and which shall be established by Law: but the Congress may by Law vest the Appointment of such inferior Officers, as they think proper, in the President alone, in the Courts of Law, or in the Heads of Departments.

The health of the nation's people directly impacts our national security. National security is clearly a constitutional responsibility of the federal government.

 

[g5000]

OP- No, he admitted end of life counseling with family and doctors- paid for by insurance, since 80% of one's health costs now are in the last 3 weeks, because there isn't such a thing, just hospitals happily running up the tab for no good reason, dupes.

The original "death panels" made infamous by Sarah Palin was the end of life counseling provision added by Oregon Congressman Earl Blumenauer. These sessions were discussions between an elderly patient and their doctor about what treatments the patient desired at the end of their life. The exact opposite of a death panel. It was the patient making their own treatment decisions.

These sessions are not paid for by insurance and Blumenauer's provision would have fixed that.

But Sarah Palin started shrieking about this being a "death panels" provision. If anyone ever had any doubt about how stupid Palin is, look no further. It took five minutes for me to find the provision online and read it. She couldn't even be bothered to do that simple thing. She just parroted the bullshit shoveled into her mouth by someone else because she wanted to believe it.

Bluemenauer removed the provision, thanks to Palin. So if your insurance does not pay for your end of life counseling, thank that bimbo Sarah Palin.


The "death panels" goalpost has since been moved, but these rubes still are parroting something they heard from somebody else.

That is exactly what all the parrots do. Repeat a meme they have heard. Not one of them has ever actually tried to find the "death panels". If they had, they would be able to tell all of us where they are and quote the relevant section.

A dead giveaway of a parrot is their inability to find the death panels. Every time. Never fails. They flop over and squawk like the dumb parrots they are.

 

[g5000]

So conservatives want the government to fund every medical procedure/treatment/option available to keep anyone alive for as long as possible, for any reason, if that's what the person wants?

Really?

Don't make us laugh.

(hint stupid: what conservatives actually want is for government to get the fuck out of the medical industry)

We know. Which would mean if you are poor, you'd go without healthcare. Everyone's health would be directly tied to their ability to pay.

The conservative version of the 'death panel' is,

you get no help, with anything, period.

My version of health insurance is that you buy it the same way you buy our home, auto, and life insurance.

You don't get home, auto, or life insurance from your employer. If you did, it would skyrocket in price.

If you bought your health insurance the same way you buy your home, auto, and life insurance you would not automatically lose your health insurance when you lost your job. And you would get discounts for being a long time customer just like you do with your other insurance.

You would choose your health insurance from a universe of competitors from all over the country instead of just a handful who have permission from the government to sell in your region.

You would choose how much you want to pay for your health insurance. You would choose what options you do or do not want.

That's what I would do.


One third of the involuntarily uninsured are high school dropouts. So what does Obama do about that in ObamaCare? He nurtures high school dropouts by making the rest of us pay for their health insurance, or borrows from China to pay for their health insurance.


Since most people get their health insurance from their employer that means those people who are involuntarily uninsured today are not the same people who will be involuntarily uninsured next year. ObamaCare doesn't address this.

Employer-provided health insurance is a gigantic boondoggle created by labor unions long ago, and ObamaCare is a giant appeasement to labor unions buy further entrenching this boondoggle driving up the cost of healthcare.

And he exempted his union pals from a tax which was supposed to help pay for ObamaCare. So he was full of shit when he said ObamaCare is going to add "not one dime" to the federal deficit. Obama's swallowing miles of union cock.

And notice how he was careful to say the federal deficit. He conveniently left out the part where it will bankrupt the shit out of the states.

 

[dblack]

(hint stupid: what conservatives actually want is for government to get the fuck out of the medical industry)

We know. Which would mean if you are poor, you'd go without healthcare. Everyone's health would be directly tied to their ability to pay.

The conservative version of the 'death panel' is,

you get no help, with anything, period.

My version of health insurance is that you buy it the same way you buy our home, auto, and life insurance.

You don't get home, auto, or life insurance from your employer. If you did, it would skyrocket in price.

If you bought your health insurance the same way you buy your home, auto, and life insurance you would not automatically lose your health insurance when you lost your job. And you would get discounts for being a long time customer just like you do with your other insurance.

You would choose your health insurance from a universe of competitors from all over the country instead of just a handful who have permission from the government to sell in your region.

You would choose how much you want to pay for your health insurance. You would choose what options you do or do not want.

That's what I would do.


One third of the involuntarily uninsured are high school dropouts. So what does Obama do about that in ObamaCare? He nurtures high school dropouts by making the rest of us pay for their health insurance, or borrows from China to pay for their health insurance.


Since most people get their health insurance from their employer that means those people who are involuntarily uninsured today are not the same people who will be involuntarily uninsured next year. ObamaCare doesn't address this.

Employer-provided health insurance is a gigantic boondoggle created by labor unions long ago, and ObamaCare is a giant appeasement to labor unions buy further entrenching this boondoggle driving up the cost of healthcare.

And he exempted his union pals from a tax which was supposed to help pay for ObamaCare. So he was full of shit when he said ObamaCare is going to add "not one dime" to the federal deficit. Obama's swallowing miles of union cock.

And notice how he was careful to say the federal deficit. He conveniently left out the part where it will bankrupt the shit out of the states.

Heresy!!!!

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEStsLJZhzo]SCREAM!! (Invasion of the Body Snatchers - Donald Sutherland) - YouTube[/ame]

 

[francoHFW]

People who will be on Medicaid will be less expensive than the ER/Bankruptcy/no preventive care BS we have now. And gov't subsidy for those making over 140% of poverty line to 4x poverty will make it possibe for THEM to afford it. It's too expensive to be like auto/life insurance. This is the only way NHC works short of single payer, and the only way it would pass as long as the GOP and blue dogs are around...glad I could help.

 

[Politico]

He's enttitled to his opinion.

 

[auditor0007]

The idiot liberal dumbocrat is so naive and ignorant, it is truly astounding. Anyone with a junior high education understood that terms like "rationing" and "dedication of resources" are just code words for DEATH PANELS.

When educated conservatives point out the obvious (like the above reality and the fact that every single payer system in the world decides who lives and dies), the idiot liberal dumbocrat screams "tin foil hats" like children. Well, now we have one of the biggest names of the dumbocrat party - Paul Krugman, finally admitting DEATH PANELS are a necessity.

This is a chilling admission by one of the biggest Liberals around - Paul Krugman. He spoke at a church earlier in the week and admitted that death panels and a value added tax will be needed to pay for rising health care costs, Obamacare and the Entitlement State. Transcript below since it is hard to hear even though I upped the audio as much as possible in Premiere.

Eventually we do have a problem. That the population is getting older, health care costs are rising... there is this question of how we're going to pay for the programs. The year 2025, the year 2030, something is going to have to give... We're going to need more revenue... Surely it will require some sort of middle class taxes as well.. We won't be able to pay for the kind of government the society we want without some increase in taxes... on the middle class, maybe a value added tax... And we're also going to have to make decisions about health care, doc pay for health care that has no demonstrated medical benefits. So the snarky version... which I shouldn't even say because it will get me in trouble, is death panels and sales taxes is how we do this.

Paul Krugman admits Death Panels and value added tax is how we pay for health care - YouTube

Let's say that you are right, that the government in some way decides who lives and dies based on whether or not they will pay for certain medical procedures. First of all, insurance companies already do this, so there really isn't much difference. But who decides who lives and dies if the person has no health insurance? Who then decides how much treatment that person should receive?

If you live in the UK, you have all kinds of choices. You can choose to just have the government provided health system at your disposal, and yes, they might deny you some types of extreme measures to save your life, your death panel if you like, but you also have the option of having private health insurance, if you choose, that will give you more options.

The UK system actually gives their citizens the best of both worlds. Everyone is guaranteed health care, and if you choose, you can still have private insurance that gives you the gold plan and allows for a few extras, if that is truly important to you. Talk about choices, Brits have the best of both worlds. I laugh every time I hear someone talk down the NHS, and never mention the fact that Brits have the option to buy private insurance.

 

[g5000]

People who will be on Medicaid will be less expensive than the ER/Bankruptcy/no preventive care BS we have now.

No they wouldn't. It has been definitively proven putting more people on Medicaid is much more expensive.

And gov't subsidy for those making over 140% of poverty line to 4x poverty will make it possibe for THEM to afford it. It's too expensive to be like auto/life insurance. This is the only way NHC works short of single payer, and the only way it would pass as long as the GOP and blue dogs are around...glad I could help.

The answer to is lower health care costs, not subsidize them.

 

[dblack]

(hint stupid: what conservatives actually want is for government to get the fuck out of the medical industry)

We know. Which would mean if you are poor, you'd go without healthcare. Everyone's health would be directly tied to their ability to pay.

The conservative version of the 'death panel' is,

you get no help, with anything, period.

My version of health insurance is that you buy it the same way you buy our home, auto, and life insurance.

You don't get home, auto, or life insurance from your employer. If you did, it would skyrocket in price.

If you bought your health insurance the same way you buy your home, auto, and life insurance you would not automatically lose your health insurance when you lost your job. And you would get discounts for being a long time customer just like you do with your other insurance.

You would choose your health insurance from a universe of competitors from all over the country instead of just a handful who have permission from the government to sell in your region.

You would choose how much you want to pay for your health insurance. You would choose what options you do or do not want.

That's what I would do.


One third of the involuntarily uninsured are high school dropouts. So what does Obama do about that in ObamaCare? He nurtures high school dropouts by making the rest of us pay for their health insurance, or borrows from China to pay for their health insurance.


Since most people get their health insurance from their employer that means those people who are involuntarily uninsured today are not the same people who will be involuntarily uninsured next year. ObamaCare doesn't address this.

Employer-provided health insurance is a gigantic boondoggle created by labor unions long ago, and ObamaCare is a giant appeasement to labor unions buy further entrenching this boondoggle driving up the cost of healthcare.

And he exempted his union pals from a tax which was supposed to help pay for ObamaCare. So he was full of shit when he said ObamaCare is going to add "not one dime" to the federal deficit. Obama's swallowing miles of union cock.

And notice how he was careful to say the federal deficit. He conveniently left out the part where it will bankrupt the shit out of the states.

Quoted again for truth and import.

 

[NYcarbineer]

People like the OP have conveniently forgotten what the 'death panel' was, or was supposed to be, originally.

As Sarah Palin described it, a death panel would be doing things like denying healthcare to her son Trig,

because he wasn't worthy of it, because of his condition, ie, Down's syndrome.

That was the nonsense that was the 'death panel'. Don't forget.

 

[auditor0007]

People who will be on Medicaid will be less expensive than the ER/Bankruptcy/no preventive care BS we have now.

No they wouldn't. It has been definitively proven putting more people on Medicaid is much more expensive.

And gov't subsidy for those making over 140% of poverty line to 4x poverty will make it possibe for THEM to afford it. It's too expensive to be like auto/life insurance. This is the only way NHC works short of single payer, and the only way it would pass as long as the GOP and blue dogs are around...glad I could help.

The answer to is lower health care costs, not subsidize them.

If we want to lower healthcare costs, the first place to start is with our hospitals. The biggest problem with hospitals is that they all try to do everything for everyone. In some cases this is necessary, but in many cases, it just means the need to purchase and operate equipment that doesn't get used often enough, thereby driving up costs.

There is also a huge disconnect between what is charge and what it really costs for many procedures. As an example, every year I need to have an ultrasound done on my liver to check for cancerous tumors, because I have early stage cirrhosis of the liver. If I go to the hospital, they will charge $1600 to $2000. My insurance company will discount that to $800 to $1000, which I have to pay all of because it falls under my deductible. Great deal, right? Not exactly. Instead, I go to a free standing imaging center and pay their cash rate for the same exact ultrasound. Cost is $220.

I can use a similar example with lab tests. If I go through my insurance, even with the insurance company discounts, I will end up paying out of pocket about $250 for the lab tests I get done twice per year. If I schedule these lab tests myself and prepay for them, I can get the same exact lab tests for about $150.

If we are going to reduce costs, we need to address the reason behind these extreme price discrepancies for the same exact services. One of the biggest problems is that most people do not realize these price discrepancies exist. When you need a test or some type of procedure, you just go where your doctor tells you to go and you assume that your insurance will cover it. Of course these days, with much higher deductibles, people are paying more and more out of pocket.

 

[nitroz]

pardon me, but I'm half awake, ehausted, and brain dead.

Can someone explain to me what a death panel is?
I think that this is a conspiracy or false, I've never heard such a thing. And I'd be suprised if people actually supported it.

 

[francoHFW]

Death Panel is what RW a-holes and dupes call end of life counseling with family and doctors.

O-care will save tons of money. End of life counseling, your own doctor and preventive care instead of the ER, low cost clinics, guidelines to cut malpractice, no more bankruptcy, limits on profit and advertising and salaries, and a ton of other stuff that dupes have not been told about, and media has done a terrible job of discussing, from fear of loudmouth idiot RWers...