Penance is not Biblical/true

[Avatar4321]

ninja there is something in the Bible saying that Christians should confess their sins to one another. I'm sure you know that.

I think it is in Timothy, maybe Ephesians, but probably the former. Regardless, if the church makes itself available to hear confession, then it is a service based on scripture. It is so recognized that we have clergy privilege in law but of you confess to anyone other than them, your spouse, or your attorney, it is fair game.

Where I disagree with many is that the Bible also requires Good Works, but so few outside the RCC agree with that.

yes, I know that but not to a Priest. Jesus is our High Priest and ALL BELIEVER'S ARE PRIESTS.

all believers are NOT priests.

Hebrews makes it very clear that only a man who is called of God as Aaron was can be a priest.

in acts 8 we have Peter being offered money for the ability to give the Holy Ghost. This would have been unnecessary if being a believer made you a priest.

God calls men and ordains them to offices to preach the Gospel and administer salvation to the people. He always has and always will.

God doesn't need someone else (sinful man) to save people. You get saved by Jesus Himself by trusting in Him. No man ministers salvation. WOW!

you really dont know the scriptures do you. What do you think the apostles were doing if not ministering the salvation of Jesus Christ to people?

why do you think the Lord gave us Apostles and prophets, pastors and teachers for if it was not to bring us to Christ.

the scriptures are clear that those who believe in Christ are to be like Him and bring salvation to the people. We are to be saviors on mount Zion.

but I suppose we should just ignore the scripture and thousands of years of human history because clearly God is different now and doesn't call priests like Aaron we just become priests by believing

 

[sameech]

ninja there is something in the Bible saying that Christians should confess their sins to one another. I'm sure you know that.

I think it is in Timothy, maybe Ephesians, but probably the former. Regardless, if the church makes itself available to hear confession, then it is a service based on scripture. It is so recognized that we have clergy privilege in law but of you confess to anyone other than them, your spouse, or your attorney, it is fair game.

Where I disagree with many is that the Bible also requires Good Works, but so few outside the RCC agree with that.

yes, I know that but not to a Priest. Jesus is our High Priest and ALL BELIEVER'S ARE PRIESTS.

all believers are NOT priests.

Hebrews makes it very clear that only a man who is called of God as Aaron was can be a priest.

in acts 8 we have Peter being offered money for the ability to give the Holy Ghost. This would have been unnecessary if being a believer made you a priest.

God calls men and ordains them to offices to preach the Gospel and administer salvation to the people. He always has and always will.

God doesn't need someone else (sinful man) to save people. You get saved by Jesus Himself by trusting in Him. No man ministers salvation. WOW!

you really dont know the scriptures do you. What do you think the apostles were doing if not ministering the salvation of Jesus Christ to people?

why do you think the Lord gave us Apostles and prophets, pastors and teachers for if it was not to bring us to Christ.

the scriptures are clear that those who believe in Christ are to be like Him and bring salvation to the people. We are to be saviors on mount Zion.

but I suppose we should just ignore the scripture and thousands of years of human history because clearly God is different now and doesn't call priests like Aaron we just become priests by believing

You are just wrong. One does not need a priest to be saved based on the Bible. Priests are about the orderly administration of the church and the dissemination of its teachings. It would be like you saying that law doesn't exist but for policemen. It does not say, "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them as long as one of them is a priest, otherwise they are just loitering."

 

[Avatar4321]

your problem is that you presume all God has ever or will ever say is found in the Bible. Catholics dont believe in that.

The only path that leads to man's salvation is found in the Bible. Christ; His blood; His death, burial, resurrection, and ascension; man's fallen nature; the penalty for sin; the payment for sin; Christ's divinity; Christ as our ONLY mediator between ourselves and the Father; Christ as King; Christ as Lamb; Christ as friend; Christ as our all and all; Christ as the Creator; Christ as the Redeemer; Christ as our Judge. The Bible reveals our fallen nature in light of Jesus Christ's perfect nature. The Bible shows us that our righteousness if but filthy rags and that we're doomed to deserved damnation if not for the precious blood of Christ.

What other books or traditions can "top" that?

who said anything about topping anything?

I've simply pointed out that Catholics dont believe the bible is the only thing God has ever said. Claiming they are incorrect because they believe something not found in the bible is ludicrous. That's your standard not theirs. They believe in traditions as well.

the claim that the bible is all God has revealed and all that He ever will reveal is completely unbiblical. It completely ignores how the bible was compiled. It completely ignores revelation which is essential for obtaining salvation.

there was a group of people in the bible that completely missed the savior in front if them because they devoted themselves to the scriptures and essentially worshipped them over the God the scriptures testify of. They are called Pharisees. Jesus christ could appear to many today and people would reject His words because they have declared the Bible all God will ever say.

do you think anyone would be justified in ignoring the words of Christ given to them simply because they aren't currently found in the scriptures? Do you think anyone is justified in ignoring the Holy Spirit because they claim to follow what's in the Bible alone?

the God of heaven is not silent. He is the God of the living and not the dead. He is unchanging and yet were supposed to believe we are to rely on His revelations to our dead forefathers rather than receive our own? That someone God has changed His method of communication or doesn't care about us enough to speak to us?

did Noah rely on Gods revelations to Adam saying he had enough? Or did he listen to God when He spoke and commanded Him to build an ark?

did Abraham rely on the revelations Noah received and build an ark or did he receive his own and obtain it?

did Moses rely on the revelations to Abraham to free the children of Israel? Or did he hearken to the words of the Lord to Him?

did the apostles rely on the word of the Lord to Moses alone, or did they obtain their own direction and revelation from God on how to build the Church?

why then should we assume we are exempt from obtaining the Lords revelations now? Or that anything He reveals now is of less worth than that which He wants to reveal us? Why should we believe in a God who has suddenly changed with no explanation when the scriptures testify to an unchanging God who will do nothing save He reveals it to His servants the prophets?

God speaks today as He has in the past. And His word is scripture. The scriptures testify to this.and who are we to tell God He cannot say more? Or to rely on our own understanding of past revelations when He has told us to trust in Him and not to our own understanding?

 

[Delta4Embassy]

there are many things not in the bible that are true.

(gasps) Ooh, I'm telling!

 

[Avatar4321]

THE ENTIRE RCC is built upon religion, man made tradition, power and deception.

Why do you have a particular hatred for the RCC as opposed to other denominations?

I don't. But so so many false teachings; they are at the top of the list. Wolves in sheep's clothing deceiving millions.

I just find it odd (though hardly unusual) for people of faith to fret so much about what others are doing when your faith should be between you and your God and nobody else. I have enough trouble keeping myself in check most days to worry about other people's religious practices.

faith is more than reconciliation with God. It's also about reconciliation with our fellow men.
I'm not sure how attacking Catholics does that though

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Catholicism is like a 3rd religious movement after the NT Gospels had been written. Much of Catholic practice isn't Scriptural in origin. Hence Protestantism which came along, saw what Catholicism was doing and said "How about we just stick to the Bible fellas?"

 

[ogibillm]

Matthew 5:24

 

[Avatar4321]

THE ENTIRE RCC is built upon religion, man made tradition, power and deception.

and the protestant/evangelical churches were formed as an attempt to reform that "man made" church. Tell me, how does man reform a man made church into the Church of God? Especially while denying revelation.

 

[DriftingSand]

your problem is that you presume all God has ever or will ever say is found in the Bible. Catholics dont believe in that.

The only path that leads to man's salvation is found in the Bible. Christ; His blood; His death, burial, resurrection, and ascension; man's fallen nature; the penalty for sin; the payment for sin; Christ's divinity; Christ as our ONLY mediator between ourselves and the Father; Christ as King; Christ as Lamb; Christ as friend; Christ as our all and all; Christ as the Creator; Christ as the Redeemer; Christ as our Judge. The Bible reveals our fallen nature in light of Jesus Christ's perfect nature. The Bible shows us that our righteousness if but filthy rags and that we're doomed to deserved damnation if not for the precious blood of Christ.

What other books or traditions can "top" that?

who said anything about topping anything?

I've simply pointed out that Catholics dont believe the bible is the only thing God has ever said. Claiming they are incorrect because they believe something not found in the bible is ludicrous. That's your standard not theirs. They believe in traditions as well.

the claim that the bible is all God has revealed and all that He ever will reveal is completely unbiblical. It completely ignores how the bible was compiled. It completely ignores revelation which is essential for obtaining salvation.

there was a group of people in the bible that completely missed the savior in front if them because they devoted themselves to the scriptures and essentially worshipped them over the God the scriptures testify of. They are called Pharisees. Jesus christ could appear to many today and people would reject His words because they have declared the Bible all God will ever say.

do you think anyone would be justified in ignoring the words of Christ given to them simply because they aren't currently found in the scriptures? Do you think anyone is justified in ignoring the Holy Spirit because they claim to follow what's in the Bible alone?

the God of heaven is not silent. He is the God of the living and not the dead. He is unchanging and yet were supposed to believe we are to rely on His revelations to our dead forefathers rather than receive our own? That someone God has changed His method of communication or doesn't care about us enough to speak to us?

did Noah rely on Gods revelations to Adam saying he had enough? Or did he listen to God when He spoke and commanded Him to build an ark?

did Abraham rely on the revelations Noah received and build an ark or did he receive his own and obtain it?

did Moses rely on the revelations to Abraham to free the children of Israel? Or did he hearken to the words of the Lord to Him?

did the apostles rely on the word of the Lord to Moses alone, or did they obtain their own direction and revelation from God on how to build the Church?

why then should we assume we are exempt from obtaining the Lords revelations now? Or that anything He reveals now is of less worth than that which He wants to reveal us? Why should we believe in a God who has suddenly changed with no explanation when the scriptures testify to an unchanging God who will do nothing save He reveals it to His servants the prophets?

God speaks today as He has in the past. And His word is scripture. The scriptures testify to this.and who are we to tell God He cannot say more? Or to rely on our own understanding of past revelations when He has told us to trust in Him and not to our own understanding?

I didn't say that the Bible is all God has revealed. I said that it's all that's necessary to find salvation. If a man living a lone life on a deserted island had nothing but a Bible he could come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. That's the goal, isn't it?

 

[turzovka]

THE SACRAMENT OF PENANCE.

By this sacrament, sins committed after baptism are forgiven through absolution by the priest in the confessional. Nowhere in the Bible are we given any indication that we must confess our sins to a priest. Rather, the Scriptures are abundantly clear that we may go directly to Jesus for the forgiveness of our sins: “If any one sins, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ, the Just, and He is the propitiation (atoning sacrifice) for our sins …” (1 John 2:1-2). “If we acknowledge our sins, He (Jesus) is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all iniquity” (1 John 1:9). “Having been justified therefore by faith, let us have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ” (Rom. 5:1). [See also Rom. 4:5,6; Galatians 3:11; 2Tim. 1:9; Titus 3:5; Luke 17:10; 1Cor. 15:10; 2Cor. 3:5; John 3:16; Acts 13:39; Galatians 2:16; Philippians 3:9].

With such an abundance of Scriptures, teaching that we are justified by faith in Jesus Christ alone, the R.C.C. still opposes the clear teaching of Scripture by stating:

“If any one says that by faith alone the sinner is justified, … let him be accursed.”(6) “If any one says that men are justified, either by sole imputation of the justice of Christ or by the sole remission of sins … or even that the grace, whereby we are justified, is solely the favour of God; let him be accursed.”(7) As we have seen, the Bible clearly refutes the idea that we must go to a confessional and to a priest to have our sins forgiven. If the Bible does not teach it, where does it then originate from? According to E. Salverte, during the Babylonian system of Baal worship, “… secret confession to a priest, according to a prescribed form, was required of all who were admitted to the ‘mysteries;’ and till such confession had been made, no complete initiation could take place”(8) “For the safety therefore, of those who were to be initiated in the Babylonian mysteries, it was held to be indispensable that the officiating priest should thoroughly probe their consciences, lest coming without due purgation (cleansing) from previous guilt contracted, the wrath of the gods should be provoked against the profane intruders.”(9)
In the same way, in the Church of Rome, there can be no admission to the sacraments without confession to the priest. The confessional is nowhere to be found in the Scriptures, but, as we have seen, this idea is exactly found in ancient Babylon where they worshipped the sun-god “Baal” and the confessional was part of their occult religious system. The Bible does say we must confess our faults (i.e. the things we do wrong against each other - not our private sins) “one to another” (James 5:16), but Roman Catholicism commands all to confess not only their faults, but even their private sins to a priest, whether they have transgressed against him or not, while the priest is under no obligation to confess to the members. This is unscriptural!


http://www.uwitness.net/religion-art...atholic-church


It is plain to see the Bible does not say anything about confessing your sins to a Priest- only one another, meaning the person you wronged. Did you wrong the Priest personally? You can confess the sins to the person directly- the person you offended. And if you cannot do that then you confess it to Jesus, our only Mediator. who CAN forgive your sins. You cannot just make a sacrament up out of thin air based on misapplied cherry picked bible verses.

You really have to turn a blind eye and a deaf ear to so many teachings of Our Lord in order to advance your hopeful case that no matter what you do against your fellow man or how much you sin, heaven awaits you with open arms the day you die. Not so.

Matthew 18 ---- 23 “For this reason the kingdom of heaven [v]may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves. 24 When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him [w]ten thousand talents was brought to him. 25 But since he [x]did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made. 26 So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.’ 27 And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the [y]debt. 28 But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred [z]denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay back what you owe.’ 29 So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you.’ 30 But he was unwilling [aa]and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed. 31 So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened. 32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Also, Jesus made Peter the head of His Church. That is beginning of the ordained priesthood. Then he gave his select disciples the authority to loose sin or hold it bound. He did not bestow that privilege upon anyone who believes and consider themselves deserving of such privilege.

John 20 ----- The disciples then rejoiced when they saw the Lord.21 So Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them and *said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.23 If you forgive the sins of any, their sins[c]have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”

So what do you think happens to a believer whose sins are not forgiven but retained? Or do you think it doesn’t matter to God?

 

[Avatar4321]

there are many things not in the bible that are true.

(gasps) Ooh, I'm telling!

who are you going to tell that I haven't already?

 

[Delta4Embassy]

there are many things not in the bible that are true.

(gasps) Ooh, I'm telling!

who are you going to tell that I haven't already?

In truth I misread it. Was hoping to let it die unnoticed. Thought it said "there are many things in the bible that aren't true."

 

[Meriweather]

there are many things not in the bible that are true.

like? Catholics and Orthodox base man made sacraments/extra biblical teachings on the 5 extra sacraments. There are only TWO SACRAMENTS instituted in the NT, NOT SEVEN.

1. Jesus was baptized and commanded baptism
2. Jesus forgave sins
3. Jesus commanded we break bread in memory of him
4. Jesus taught us how God intended marriage to be
5. Jesus promised us The Holy Spirit would come upon us
6. Jesus anointed/appointed Apostles
7. Jesus healed the sick and dying.

From here it is easy to see that the early Christians centered their practices and teachings on the life of Christ, his teachings, and his practices--which are really the seven gifts he gave to us. Over time, in the Catholic Church, these became known as the seven Sacraments.