Personal responsibility vs. Public safety net

[Mr. Peepers]

The system is definately broken....but it is not becuase it is run by private industry....

This is PRECISELY why it's broken. In your state, I'm willing to bet that there are thousands of insurance agencies, both big and small. So, why aren't the prices more affordable? That's competition, right? Could it be be because the insurance industry is in collusion for the highest profits they can get? You bet they are. Problem is, this is your life they're messing with - and they are doing everything in their power to DENY treatment even though many have been paying into their system for years. It won't matter if we open up state lines - so we now have 100,000 unaffordable options - what good will that do?

 

[Vel]

The deductibles and copays "are irrelevant"?????
Why are they "irrelevant"? It is because that's the part (at the very least) that you stuck everyone else with and you very much need to ignore those costs to hang onto your illusion of "personal responsibility?"

You see, I believe in REAL personal responsibility - not some figment of some hypocrite's imagination.

No, you dont. Because nobody was stuck covering any out of pocket expenses I might have incurred. I paid the providers what they would have received if I had insurance- not just what insurance might have paid. Your desire to vilify me has overtaken your ration. You are a typical lefty- incapable of thinking in the face of emotional hysteria. Nice try though, Muffintop.

Yes, every healthcare consumer got stuck with what you refused to pay - you keep changing your story too. FIRST you said you paid ONLY what the insurance company would have paid. NOW you claim you paid what the insurance company would have paid PLUS co-pays and deductibiles.

Which is it? In your desperate attempt to spin the story, you aren't keeping your "facts" straight. A sure sign of someone who is so committed to defending rhetoric, that facts take a back seat.

I "vilify" no one. You have done so yourself with your very own words.

I'm sorry if that embarasses you to the point of sophomoric slurs and wildly spinning and twisting your story - but you brought it on yourself. Take personal responsibility for your own defeated rhetoric and stop trying to shift the blame onto others - like you shifted your healthcare bill to others.

Just checking.. you do realize don't you that co-pays and deductables included in a total billed amount? They are not additional charges. Have you never actually paid one of your own medical bills?

 

[Oldandtired]

MHO - is that it is the legitimate role of government to encourage REAL personal responsibility. People who can afford to contribute to their own healthcare expenses, should be expected to - rather than excercising their "right" to have me pick up 100% of their expenses so they can save their money for the BIG cable TV package.

Unless, of course, they are young and healthy and swearing to NOT do what their parents did....spend and not prepare for a rainy day?

Many of the young do not buy insurance so they can save and prepare for when they are unexpectedly unemployed.

Your theory is a good one.....but you are only looking at it from a stnadpoint of those that ABUSE the system...and it is not a majority...at least I doubt it is.

 

[rightwinger]

MHO - is that it is the legitimate role of government to encourage REAL personal responsibility. People who can afford to contribute to their own healthcare expenses, should be expected to - rather than excercising their "right" to have me pick up 100% of their expenses so they can save their money for the BIG cable TV package.

Well then I guess you are thrilled with the healthcare plan. Those who can afford it will still have to pay premiums in either the public option or private plan.

 

[ThePickledPunk]

No, you dont. Because nobody was stuck covering any out of pocket expenses I might have incurred. I paid the providers what they would have received if I had insurance- not just what insurance might have paid. Your desire to vilify me has overtaken your ration. You are a typical lefty- incapable of thinking in the face of emotional hysteria. Nice try though, Muffintop.

Yes, every healthcare consumer got stuck with what you refused to pay - you keep changing your story too. FIRST you said you paid ONLY what the insurance company would have paid. NOW you claim you paid what the insurance company would have paid PLUS co-pays and deductibiles.

Which is it? In your desperate attempt to spin the story, you aren't keeping your "facts" straight. A sure sign of someone who is so committed to defending rhetoric, that facts take a back seat.

I "vilify" no one. You have done so yourself with your very own words.

I'm sorry if that embarasses you to the point of sophomoric slurs and wildly spinning and twisting your story - but you brought it on yourself. Take personal responsibility for your own defeated rhetoric and stop trying to shift the blame onto others - like you shifted your healthcare bill to others.

Just checking.. you do realize don't you that co-pays and deductables included in a total billed amount? They are not additional charges. Have you never actually paid one of your own medical bills?

Nodog is so insistent that noone can be responsible for their medical bills that rational thought is lost on her.

 

[Oldandtired]

The system is definately broken....but it is not becuase it is run by private industry....

This is PRECISELY why it's broken. In your state, I'm willing to bet that there are thousands of insurance agencies, both big and small. So, why aren't the prices more affordable? That's competition, right? Could it be be because the insurance industry is in collusion for the highest profits they can get? You bet they are. Problem is, this is your life they're messing with - and they are doing everything in their power to DENY treatment even though many have been paying into their system for years. It won't matter if we open up state lines - so we now have 100,000 unaffordable options - what good will that do?

do you know the difference between an insurance agancy and and insurance company?
Thousands of agencies...yes.....6 companies.

and by the way....4% profit is deemed as a numbeer that implies "highest profits they can get"?

You jumped into this debate without reading the prior posts...and you obviously are not aware of the basic makeup of the industry.

Debate what you know....not simply what you hear.

 

[ThePickledPunk]

The system is definately broken....but it is not becuase it is run by private industry....

This is PRECISELY why it's broken. In your state, I'm willing to bet that there are thousands of insurance agencies, both big and small. So, why aren't the prices more affordable? That's competition, right? Could it be be because the insurance industry is in collusion for the highest profits they can get? You bet they are. Problem is, this is your life they're messing with - and they are doing everything in their power to DENY treatment even though many have been paying into their system for years. It won't matter if we open up state lines - so we now have 100,000 unaffordable options - what good will that do?

do you know the difference between an insurance agancy and and insurance company?
Thousands of agencies...yes.....6 companies.

and by the way....4% profit is deemed as a numbeer that implies "highest profits they can get"?

You jumped into this debate without reading the prior posts...and you obviously are not aware of the basic makeup of the industry.

Debate what you know....not simply what you hear.

Rightwinger hears "someone else to pay for my insurance" and jumps at it....

 

[nodoginnafight]

MHO - is that it is the legitimate role of government to encourage REAL personal responsibility. People who can afford to contribute to their own healthcare expenses, should be expected to - rather than excercising their "right" to have me pick up 100% of their expenses so they can save their money for the BIG cable TV package.

Well then I guess you are thrilled with the healthcare plan. Those who can afford it will still have to pay premiums in either the public option or private plan.

I don't know about thrilled - but if it requires people to contribute what they can toward their own care, then I certainly like THAT part of it.

 

[nodoginnafight]

No, you dont. Because nobody was stuck covering any out of pocket expenses I might have incurred. I paid the providers what they would have received if I had insurance- not just what insurance might have paid. Your desire to vilify me has overtaken your ration. You are a typical lefty- incapable of thinking in the face of emotional hysteria. Nice try though, Muffintop.

Yes, every healthcare consumer got stuck with what you refused to pay - you keep changing your story too. FIRST you said you paid ONLY what the insurance company would have paid. NOW you claim you paid what the insurance company would have paid PLUS co-pays and deductibiles.

Which is it? In your desperate attempt to spin the story, you aren't keeping your "facts" straight. A sure sign of someone who is so committed to defending rhetoric, that facts take a back seat.

I "vilify" no one. You have done so yourself with your very own words.

I'm sorry if that embarasses you to the point of sophomoric slurs and wildly spinning and twisting your story - but you brought it on yourself. Take personal responsibility for your own defeated rhetoric and stop trying to shift the blame onto others - like you shifted your healthcare bill to others.

Just checking.. you do realize don't you that co-pays and deductables included in a total billed amount? They are not additional charges. Have you never actually paid one of your own medical bills?

Yes I know how medical expenses are billed and paid and yes, I've paid my own deductibles and co-pays - unlike others who preffer to have everyone else pick up the tab on those.

 

[Mr. Peepers]

So, you've got 6 companies competing in your state? I don't believe that for a second. Regardless, that is 6 companies. Why no affordable option? That IS competition.

Any company that can pay their CEO 200+ million a year just to breathe the air there is making damn good profits. I don't believe for a minute that all insurance companies make 4% profit. And yes, insurance companies only care about making the highest profits they can get. That is an entirely true statement regardless of their actual profit percentage.

I am VERY aware of the workings of the parasitic, evil health insurance industry. I have had to fight many battles with them concerning my late grandmother who developed ALS - when she could no longer communicate. They are evil and vile as an industry and I truly wonder about the people who work for them.

 

[nodoginnafight]

rightwinger - I'd also applaud making coverage as affordable as possible for the working poor and for the rest of us who are STILL going to be paying all the expenses for those can't afford to contribute at all.

I want these folks to get care, and I want those who can contribute towards that to contribute what they can. And I want to be able to provide care for those who can't afford to contribute as cost-effectively as possible.

 

[ThePickledPunk]

Yes, every healthcare consumer got stuck with what you refused to pay - you keep changing your story too. FIRST you said you paid ONLY what the insurance company would have paid. NOW you claim you paid what the insurance company would have paid PLUS co-pays and deductibiles.

Which is it? In your desperate attempt to spin the story, you aren't keeping your "facts" straight. A sure sign of someone who is so committed to defending rhetoric, that facts take a back seat.

I "vilify" no one. You have done so yourself with your very own words.

I'm sorry if that embarasses you to the point of sophomoric slurs and wildly spinning and twisting your story - but you brought it on yourself. Take personal responsibility for your own defeated rhetoric and stop trying to shift the blame onto others - like you shifted your healthcare bill to others.

Just checking.. you do realize don't you that co-pays and deductables included in a total billed amount? They are not additional charges. Have you never actually paid one of your own medical bills?

Yes I know how medical expenses are billed and paid and yes, I've paid my own deductibles and co-pays - unlike others who preffer to have everyone else pick up the tab on those.

Then your problem is exactly as I diagnosed. Your emotion has overrun your reason, which seems to be a prerequisite for you lefties.

 

[rightwinger]

rightwinger - I'd also applaud making coverage as affordable as possible for the working poor and for the rest of us who are STILL going to be paying all the expenses for those can't afford to contribute at all.

I want these folks to get care, and I want those who can contribute towards that to contribute what they can. And I want to be able to provide care for those who can't afford to contribute as cost-effectively as possible.

I agree dog

Keep in mind, the current system pays medical expenses for those who can't afford it. Emergency rooms is not the way to getbasic healthcare

 

[American Horse]

The system is definately broken....but it is not becuase it is run by private industry....

This is PRECISELY why it's broken. In your state, I'm willing to bet that there are thousands of insurance agencies, both big and small. So, why aren't the prices more affordable? That's competition, right? Could it be be because the insurance industry is in collusion for the highest profits they can get? You bet they are. Problem is, this is your life they're messing with - and they are doing everything in their power to DENY treatment even though many have been paying into their system for years. It won't matter if we open up state lines - so we now have 100,000 unaffordable options - what good will that do?

do you know the difference between an insurance agancy and and insurance company?
Thousands of agencies...yes.....6 companies.

and by the way....4% profit is deemed as a numbeer that implies "highest profits they can get"?

You jumped into this debate without reading the rp[ior posts...and you obviously arte not aware of the basic makeup of the industry.

Debate what you know....not simply what you hear.

Sadly, too many people do not know the difference between an agency and an insurance company. If they were in business for themselves they would be much more likely to understand the difference than someone who works for a company that provides a health policy for them.

There is a significant difference between "Agencies" too.

Lots of people will go to the agency office of a famous named company like State Farm, or American Family, not realizing how much they are limiting their access to competition by doing that. I always make it a point to tell people, 'PLEASE, PLEASE, do yourself a favor and go to a commercial insurance agency which sells a lot to businesses.' By doing that they will benefit from the competitive edge business demand of their commercial agents.

They will sell to anyone, and they will have a dedicated agent in their office who specializes in health insurance policies and that can see that they get the best possible policy options which fit their personal needs with multiple company offerings. This is where competition rules and the smart customer gets the most access to that competition, at least as it exists in their own state.

 

[johnrocks]

So, you've got 6 companies competing in your state? I don't believe that for a second. Regardless, that is 6 companies. Why no affordable option? That IS competition.

Any company that can pay their CEO 200+ million a year just to breathe the air there is making damn good profits. I don't believe for a minute that all insurance companies make 4% profit. And yes, insurance companies only care about making the highest profits they can get. That is an entirely true statement regardless of their actual profit percentage.

I am VERY aware of the workings of the parasitic, evil health insurance industry. I have had to fight many battles with them concerning my late grandmother who developed ALS - when she could no longer communicate. They are evil and vile as an industry and I truly wonder about the people who work for them.

Sorry to see that about your Grandmother, was she in New York like yourself?

 

[nodoginnafight]

rightwinger - I'd also applaud making coverage as affordable as possible for the working poor and for the rest of us who are STILL going to be paying all the expenses for those can't afford to contribute at all.

I want these folks to get care, and I want those who can contribute towards that to contribute what they can. And I want to be able to provide care for those who can't afford to contribute as cost-effectively as possible.

I agree dog

Keep in mind, the current system pays medical expenses for those who can't afford it. Emergency rooms is not the way to getbasic healthcare

I agree - we ARE paying for it now and we are paying MORE than we should be for it.
IMHO - we've got to get basic care OUT of the ER - we've got to get those who can contribute to their own care to start doing it - and we've got to get affordable options to the working poor.

 

[Oldandtired]

rightwinger - I'd also applaud making coverage as affordable as possible for the working poor and for the rest of us who are STILL going to be paying all the expenses for those can't afford to contribute at all.

I want these folks to get care, and I want those who can contribute towards that to contribute what they can. And I want to be able to provide care for those who can't afford to contribute as cost-effectively as possible.

I agree dog

Keep in mind, the current system pays medical expenses for those who can't afford it. Emergency rooms is not the way to getbasic healthcare

A public option open to ONLY those that are at the poverty level is fine with me.

Mandating insurance companies MUST enrol ANMYONE who wants is not only fine with me, but a must in my eyes.

Mandate a profit line for the insurers....I am fine with that as well.

And yes, all of the above will increase premiums...I am OK with that.

But to mandate that ALL have insurance? Mandate that you have no choice? In America?

Sorry...I have a serious issue with it.

 

[DiamondDave]

The government wants to 'subsidize' some people at the expense of others.. which is the epitome of unequal treatment under government.. which is not what we were set up to be as a country and government

What so many fail to grasp is that the private sector is doing that right now. THEY are subsidizing some at the expense of others. We ALL pay for the uninsured one way or another - higher taxes, higher premiums, higher healthcare costs .....

Under the private system we have in place right now we are also paying way more than we should be. Since emergency rooms can't turn folks away - the uninsured are going straight to the ER (the most expensive option available) for their primary care. And WE ALL wind up paying the price for that.

For better or worse we have decided that we are not the kind of society that is going to allow people to suffer and go untreated.

Fine, but let's do it in the most cost-effective way possible.

And folks who are so adament in protecting their right to choose whether or not to purchase insurance are pretty mum on the fact that doing so protects the "right" of the uninsured to continue dipping into my wallet to cover THEIR healthcare expenses. They are simply protecting their "mandate" and "encroachment on liberty" rhetoric - they are certainly not defending any principle of personal responsibility.

1) Under the private system you are paying more than YOU BELIEVE YOU SHOULD BE.. big distinction between that and paying more than you should.. we will be paying more considering the quality of available care, technologies, and facilities is greater than anywhere else on earth, bar none
2) The private sector is not the government... but people get charged differently because of the negotiated contract with the group, the risk assessment (if on an individual plan), etc.... should someone with 17 diseases pay more than someone with none??? Kinda like any other insurance, the more risk the more the charge
3) Under the private sector (and you and others have been told this NUMEROUS times)... if you do not get sick and you are not paying into the system you indeed are NOT paying for those who try and get free care... plus you also have foundations, grants, and charities that help those in financial 'need' when in tough times.. it is more complex than 'everybody pays for the poor anyway'... but nice try

Personally.. you leave the hospital or doctor without paying, and you refuse to pay when bills come about, they get to take whatever possessions you have and garnish any income you have... you don't get to spend on cable TV or a PS3 or cigarettes or Pepsi or whatever else... they key is those who try not to pay are not hit hard enough in the financial groin... the leeches just assume the 'system' will pick up the slack when they see it will be hard to pursue getting the money from them...
You come into the ER complaining of the flu or a broken finger and you state you have no insurance, swipe that credit card or flash the cash or out on your butt you go... install fines for trips to the ER that have no real emergency factor...
Many people need to be forced back into personal responsibility.. it's the automatic safety nets that have cause a great majority of the problem with personal responsibility

 

[ThePickledPunk]

rightwinger - I'd also applaud making coverage as affordable as possible for the working poor and for the rest of us who are STILL going to be paying all the expenses for those can't afford to contribute at all.

I want these folks to get care, and I want those who can contribute towards that to contribute what they can. And I want to be able to provide care for those who can't afford to contribute as cost-effectively as possible.

I agree dog

Keep in mind, the current system pays medical expenses for those who can't afford it. Emergency rooms is not the way to getbasic healthcare

A public option open to ONLY those that are at the poverty level is fine with me.

Mandating insurance companies MUST enrol ANMYONE who wants is not only fine with me, but a must in my eyes.

Mandate a profit line for the insurers....I am fine with that as well.

And yes, all of the above will increase premiums...I am OK with that.

But to mandate that ALL have insurance? Mandate that you have no choice? In America?

Sorry...I have a serious issue with it.

Hey man- takin the choice out of evryone's hands will benefit a handful of people. its worth it

 

[Oldandtired]

I agree dog

Keep in mind, the current system pays medical expenses for those who can't afford it. Emergency rooms is not the way to getbasic healthcare

A public option open to ONLY those that are at the poverty level is fine with me.

Mandating insurance companies MUST enrol ANMYONE who wants is not only fine with me, but a must in my eyes.

Mandate a profit line for the insurers....I am fine with that as well.

And yes, all of the above will increase premiums...I am OK with that.

But to mandate that ALL have insurance? Mandate that you have no choice? In America?

Sorry...I have a serious issue with it.

Hey man- takin the choice out of evryone's hands will benefit a handful of people. its worth it

As sarcastic as that line is....

That is EXACTLY what the democratic leadership is saying......people refuse to see it though.