Personal responsibility vs. Public safety net

[ThePickledPunk]

Tell that to your employer. Millions of them are reducing or dropping coverage

Gonna get a lot worse with a public option....

Public option will offer a low cost option to keep costs low. To compete, private companies will have to provide better coverage

No business can compete with another business that has unlimited resources to draw from (taxes).

 

[ThePickledPunk]

And what insurance company? If it is true that all the insurance companies negotiate for discounts, how would the hospital decide what an insurance company that doesn't exist would charge?

I do know that whatever my insurance company doesn't pay, I must pay for myself or go without. No insurance company pays 100%

The providers settled with me for the amount customarily charged insurance companies for those services. My current insurance pays 100%

Also, what was the nature of your emergency back surgery? Emergency back surgery is rather rare, in fact I can only think of things that would take way more than $50,000 to fix.

Which one of these was yours and how did you get such good health coverage with a pre-existing condition?

When are Back Problems an Emergency?

I slipped a disc in my back and required a decompression and partial discectomy. My surgery took about fifteen minutes to complete.

 

[Oldandtired]

The theroy that the government option will LOWER premium costs in incorrect.
If anything, it will increease them....or add to the deficit...it MUST be one or the other.

Insurance company profits are not going up...they are pretty stagnant at 4%....but the cost to insure is constantly going up...and it will go up annually for the government plan as well.

However, the government has proven time and time again that they can not operate as cost efficiently as private industry...

Putting aside Social Security, the USPS, and medicare.....do a simple search on "armored plating"...

It is a classic example of what happens when government tries to compete with private industry....it resulted in double the cost to the government to make it as opposed to buying it from private industry....and that did NOT include the overall cost to start the program that endeed up coming in millions of dollars over anticipated budget.

 

[Ravi]

The providers settled with me for the amount customarily charged insurance companies for those services. My current insurance pays 100%

Also, what was the nature of your emergency back surgery? Emergency back surgery is rather rare, in fact I can only think of things that would take way more than $50,000 to fix.

Which one of these was yours and how did you get such good health coverage with a pre-existing condition?

When are Back Problems an Emergency?

I slipped a disc in my back and required a decompression and partial discectomy. My surgery took about fifteen minutes to complete.

So in reality this wasn't a medical emergency. How did you ever convince the hospital that it was?

 

[nodoginnafight]

sorry, fishmonger, but the doctor would have charged insurance 9k for my procedure. That is what I paid. Deductibles and copays are irrelevant. Bottom line- if i had insurance, the providers would not have gotten one cent more than they ended up receiving. If they would have charged insurance 9k, and insurance would have only paid 7k, leaving me to pay the other 2k- would that have made you happy? Because it would not have made a difference to the providers...

You have amused me with your foolish pursuit of a vilifying argument, when the reality is that I paid more than most in my situation would have, with or without insurance. Of course- being a leftist- you do not believe in personal responsibility. Which explains your position.

The deductibles and copays "are irrelevant"?????
Why are they "irrelevant"? It is because that's the part (at the very least) that you stuck everyone else with and you very much need to ignore those costs to hang onto your illusion of "personal responsibility?"

You see, I believe in REAL personal responsibility - not some figment of some hypocrite's imagination.

No, you dont. Because nobody was stuck covering any out of pocket expenses I might have incurred. I paid the providers what they would have received if I had insurance- not just what insurance might have paid. Your desire to vilify me has overtaken your ration. You are a typical lefty- incapable of thinking in the face of emotional hysteria. Nice try though, Muffintop.

Yes, every healthcare consumer got stuck with what you refused to pay - you keep changing your story too. FIRST you said you paid ONLY what the insurance company would have paid. NOW you claim you paid what the insurance company would have paid PLUS co-pays and deductibiles.

Which is it? In your desperate attempt to spin the story, you aren't keeping your "facts" straight. A sure sign of someone who is so committed to defending rhetoric, that facts take a back seat.

I "vilify" no one. You have done so yourself with your very own words.

I'm sorry if that embarasses you to the point of sophomoric slurs and wildly spinning and twisting your story - but you brought it on yourself. Take personal responsibility for your own defeated rhetoric and stop trying to shift the blame onto others - like you shifted your healthcare bill to others.

 

[nodoginnafight]

Yes, America, as a whole, has compassion.

Such compassion is why many who can not do for themselves, have others assist them.
Interestingly, we are looking at the way other countries, that we are proud to be above in social issues, handle their healthcare and we want to emulate it.

And by the way...simple math...

4% profit...steady for years...yet premiums go up every year by double digit percentages.

Call me nuts.....but maybe the issue is finding why costs are rising and fix THAT issue? Afterall, OBVIOUSLY the government is going to have the same problem....

But of course...THAT is not written in....."we will do what profit comnpanies have not been able to do....keep costs down".....really? And exactly how?

That is coming from an administeation that spent $303,000 to create a $45,000 job...and called it a SUCCESS!

A big reason the costs are going up is because when an individual has health insurance, he doesn't usually question the cost. He knows what his deductible is, and that's all he is concerned with, so the providers can charge higher and higher amounts. If a person's insurance covers medications, he usually won't bother to shop around for the lowest price.

Also, when people have insurance, they tend to visit the doctor for everything--many times for conditions like colds which will usually go away on their own. And hypochondriacs can really drive up the costs. How many of us have worked with people who seem to go to the doctor for obscure complaints that never really turn out to be anything? They drive up the costs for everyone.

Your first paragraph is completely incorerect. It is proven that profits are NOT the driving factor of inurance premiums going up seeing as the profit in the industry has been pretty level for years...at about 4%

And exactly what is going to change with your second paragraph with the government getting involved? Or are you agreeing that we, the people, will be told by someone in an office many miles away whether or not we are ill enough to go see a doctor?

So you are saying that catching a problem early is a bad thing?
Hmmmm ... so much for all of that crap about preventative care, huh?

BTW - the reason healthcare costs are rising is because the insured have to pay more to cover the costs that are not recovered from deadbeats like the punk.

 

[Oldandtired]

A big reason the costs are going up is because when an individual has health insurance, he doesn't usually question the cost. He knows what his deductible is, and that's all he is concerned with, so the providers can charge higher and higher amounts. If a person's insurance covers medications, he usually won't bother to shop around for the lowest price.

Also, when people have insurance, they tend to visit the doctor for everything--many times for conditions like colds which will usually go away on their own. And hypochondriacs can really drive up the costs. How many of us have worked with people who seem to go to the doctor for obscure complaints that never really turn out to be anything? They drive up the costs for everyone.

Your first paragraph is completely incorerect. It is proven that profits are NOT the driving factor of inurance premiums going up seeing as the profit in the industry has been pretty level for years...at about 4%

And exactly what is going to change with your second paragraph with the government getting involved? Or are you agreeing that we, the people, will be told by someone in an office many miles away whether or not we are ill enough to go see a doctor?

So you are saying that catching a problem early is a bad thing?
Hmmmm ... so much for all of that crap about preventative care, huh?

BTW - the reason healthcare costs are rising is because the insured have to pay more to cover the costs that are not recovered from deadbeats like the punk.

No....what I am saying is fidning a solution to the problem must come first.
Government will bump into the same issues insurance companies have.....

Are you saying the best way to find a solution to a problem is to have we, the taxpayers, do the same thing until we have the problem?

 

[rightwinger]

I never said it could happen here. America, as a whole, has compassion, unlike some who post on this message board

Yes, America, as a whole, has compassion.

Such compassion is why many who can not do for themselves, have others assist them.
Interestingly, we are looking at the way other countries, that we are proud to be above in social issues, handle their healthcare and we want to emulate it.

And by the way...simple math...

4% profit...steady for years...yet premiums go up every year by double digit percentages.

Call me nuts.....but maybe the issue is finding why costs are rising and fix THAT issue? Afterall, OBVIOUSLY the government is going to have the same problem....

But of course...THAT is not written in....."we will do what profit comnpanies have not been able to do....keep costs down".....really? And exactly how?

That is coming from an administeation that spent $303,000 to create a $45,000 job...and called it a SUCCESS!

A big reason the costs are going up is because when an individual has health insurance, he doesn't usually question the cost. He knows what his deductible is, and that's all he is concerned with, so the providers can charge higher and higher amounts. If a person's insurance covers medications, he usually won't bother to shop around for the lowest price.

Also, when people have insurance, they tend to visit the doctor for everything--many times for conditions like colds which will usually go away on their own. And hypochondriacs can really drive up the costs. How many of us have worked with people who seem to go to the doctor for obscure complaints that never really turn out to be anything? They drive up the costs for everyone.

First off. Healthcare costs are going up because the technology is skyrocketing. The toys and procedures available to doctors now provide a capability that was unimaginable just ten years ago. These toys cost money and Americans are better off because of them.

Secondly, nobody questions individual billing. As long as it is within allowable ranges for the insurance company, it gets paid. There is no shopping for best price or best doctors. If I am getting a procedure done, I can't shop and find out it costs $10,000 less to have it done in Arizona than it does in NJ. The same goes for drugs. I can't go online and check prices between carriers and nationwide.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

Come on guys.. this all a ruse... it has little, if anything to do with health care... if it did, we'd hear at least a little about actual market refoms. Instead all we get is thousands of pages of new government programs and beurocracies. It's all bullshit... it is a massive power grab. PERIOD.

 

[johnrocks]

I favor personal responsibility over government intrusion but what gets me is others who say that then want government intrusion on things like marijuana or driving in your own car smoking with your own kids and saying it needs to be like this "for th childreeeeen".

 

[Oldandtired]

Yes, America, as a whole, has compassion.

Such compassion is why many who can not do for themselves, have others assist them.
Interestingly, we are looking at the way other countries, that we are proud to be above in social issues, handle their healthcare and we want to emulate it.

And by the way...simple math...

4% profit...steady for years...yet premiums go up every year by double digit percentages.

Call me nuts.....but maybe the issue is finding why costs are rising and fix THAT issue? Afterall, OBVIOUSLY the government is going to have the same problem....

But of course...THAT is not written in....."we will do what profit comnpanies have not been able to do....keep costs down".....really? And exactly how?

That is coming from an administeation that spent $303,000 to create a $45,000 job...and called it a SUCCESS!

A big reason the costs are going up is because when an individual has health insurance, he doesn't usually question the cost. He knows what his deductible is, and that's all he is concerned with, so the providers can charge higher and higher amounts. If a person's insurance covers medications, he usually won't bother to shop around for the lowest price.

Also, when people have insurance, they tend to visit the doctor for everything--many times for conditions like colds which will usually go away on their own. And hypochondriacs can really drive up the costs. How many of us have worked with people who seem to go to the doctor for obscure complaints that never really turn out to be anything? They drive up the costs for everyone.

First off. Healthcare costs are going up because the technology is skyrocketing. The toys and procedures available to doctors now provide a capability that was unimaginable just ten years ago. These toys cost money and Americans are better off because of them.

Secondly, nobody questions individual billing. As long as it is within allowable ranges for the insurance company, it gets paid. There is no shopping for best price or best doctors. If I am getting a procedure done, I can't shop and find out it costs $10,000 less to have it done in Arizona than it does in NJ. The same goes for drugs. I can't go online and check prices between carriers and nationwide.

Then why not simply open state AND country borders?

Call me nuts...but the whole excuse that a public option will create competition is ludicrous when supporters say that 1300 insrance companies being allowed to compete with each other WONT create competition.

 

[ThePickledPunk]

Also, what was the nature of your emergency back surgery? Emergency back surgery is rather rare, in fact I can only think of things that would take way more than $50,000 to fix.

Which one of these was yours and how did you get such good health coverage with a pre-existing condition?

When are Back Problems an Emergency?

I slipped a disc in my back and required a decompression and partial discectomy. My surgery took about fifteen minutes to complete.

So in reality this wasn't a medical emergency. How did you ever convince the hospital that it was?

The doctors determined it was an emergency when I still could not uncurl from a fetal position after three shots of morphine. I did not need to convince anyone- it was apparent when I enterd the emergency room.

 

[amrchaos]

A little point to make--Doctors actually charge insurance companies much more than their patients(when the patient is paying out of pocket). That is why the Health savings account is a good idea if you can stat one up.

You are beating the middle man with one.

 

[ThePickledPunk]

The deductibles and copays "are irrelevant"?????
Why are they "irrelevant"? It is because that's the part (at the very least) that you stuck everyone else with and you very much need to ignore those costs to hang onto your illusion of "personal responsibility?"

You see, I believe in REAL personal responsibility - not some figment of some hypocrite's imagination.

No, you dont. Because nobody was stuck covering any out of pocket expenses I might have incurred. I paid the providers what they would have received if I had insurance- not just what insurance might have paid. Your desire to vilify me has overtaken your ration. You are a typical lefty- incapable of thinking in the face of emotional hysteria. Nice try though, Muffintop.

Yes, every healthcare consumer got stuck with what you refused to pay - you keep changing your story too. FIRST you said you paid ONLY what the insurance company would have paid. NOW you claim you paid what the insurance company would have paid PLUS co-pays and deductibiles.

Which is it? In your desperate attempt to spin the story, you aren't keeping your "facts" straight. A sure sign of someone who is so committed to defending rhetoric, that facts take a back seat.

I "vilify" no one. You have done so yourself with your very own words.

I'm sorry if that embarasses you to the point of sophomoric slurs and wildly spinning and twisting your story - but you brought it on yourself. Take personal responsibility for your own defeated rhetoric and stop trying to shift the blame onto others - like you shifted your healthcare bill to others.

Noone got stuck with anything- hospital made a nice profit. And co-pays are required by insurance- not the hospital. You do not embarrass me. You embarrass your family.

 

[nodoginnafight]

Your first paragraph is completely incorerect. It is proven that profits are NOT the driving factor of inurance premiums going up seeing as the profit in the industry has been pretty level for years...at about 4%

And exactly what is going to change with your second paragraph with the government getting involved? Or are you agreeing that we, the people, will be told by someone in an office many miles away whether or not we are ill enough to go see a doctor?

So you are saying that catching a problem early is a bad thing?
Hmmmm ... so much for all of that crap about preventative care, huh?

BTW - the reason healthcare costs are rising is because the insured have to pay more to cover the costs that are not recovered from deadbeats like the punk.

No....what I am saying is fidning a solution to the problem must come first.
Government will bump into the same issues insurance companies have.....

Are you saying the best way to find a solution to a problem is to have we, the taxpayers, do the same thing until we have the problem?

To an extent I agree - but government can mandate that those who are able to pay for at least a share of their own healthcare costs do so. (Gov't. knows how much you make) Private companies can't do that.
My first choice for an affordable option for the working poor would be private healthcare co-ops. If you choose not to participate, then you lose any medical expense deductions. Because if you can afford your own medical care, why should other Americans be forced to subsidize your healthcare with a tax break for your medical expenses?

 

[DiamondDave]

So you are saying that catching a problem early is a bad thing?
Hmmmm ... so much for all of that crap about preventative care, huh?

BTW - the reason healthcare costs are rising is because the insured have to pay more to cover the costs that are not recovered from deadbeats like the punk.

No....what I am saying is fidning a solution to the problem must come first.
Government will bump into the same issues insurance companies have.....

Are you saying the best way to find a solution to a problem is to have we, the taxpayers, do the same thing until we have the problem?

To an extent I agree - but government can mandate that those who are able to pay for at least a share of their own healthcare costs do so. (Gov't. knows how much you make) Private companies can't do that.
My first choice for an affordable option for the working poor would be private healthcare co-ops. If you choose not to participate, then you lose any medical expense deductions. Because if you can afford your own medical care, why should other Americans be forced to subsidize your healthcare with a tax break for your medical expenses?

I have been shouting for a while that we should a) get rid of the regulations that deal with getting policies from other states.. and b) Any groups should be able to approach health insurance companies to gain group rates.. in this way would would get more competition and more choices... imagine if you could choose between your work plan, a plan your neighborhood HOA has available for anyone in your neighborhood, a plan thru the local Moose lodge that you belong to, a plan thru your local church, and so many other possibilities...

The government wants to 'subsidize' some people at the expense of others.. which is the epitome of unequal treatment under government.. which is not what we were set up to be as a country and government

Under a system that allows more choices.. the poor, the previously un-insurable, etc should have multiple options with the inherent lower cost possibilities... but it is not up to the government to say that you can only be charged so much for a policy or that you are 'entitled' to one, even though it is your own personal responsibility for your own personal well being

And certainly government should not mandate that you purchase coverage.. it is not like auto insurance where the ability to drive is a privilege.. this is your own personal care outside of public domain.... you want to take higher chances with your own life, so be it... just as government should not penalize (like they tried to put into plans) those who wish to go overboard on the amount of insurance they have, or if they get some uber-policy that is better than anyone else's

 

[Oldandtired]

So you are saying that catching a problem early is a bad thing?
Hmmmm ... so much for all of that crap about preventative care, huh?

BTW - the reason healthcare costs are rising is because the insured have to pay more to cover the costs that are not recovered from deadbeats like the punk.

No....what I am saying is fidning a solution to the problem must come first.
Government will bump into the same issues insurance companies have.....

Are you saying the best way to find a solution to a problem is to have we, the taxpayers, do the same thing until we have the problem?

To an extent I agree - but government can mandate that those who are able to pay for at least a share of their own healthcare costs do so. (Gov't. knows how much you make) Private companies can't do that.
My first choice for an affordable option for the working poor would be private healthcare co-ops. If you choose not to participate, then you lose any medical expense deductions. Because if you can afford your own medical care, why should other Americans be forced to subsidize your healthcare with a tax break for your medical expenses?

Your theory is mostly sound....but many of us plan on epxenses based not only on our current income...but also on the possibility of losing our jobs, lowering our income, etc.

The system is definately broken....but it is not becuase it is run by private industry....and the solution to ANY of our problems should NEVER include a mandate that takes away choices.

 

[nodoginnafight]

The government wants to 'subsidize' some people at the expense of others.. which is the epitome of unequal treatment under government.. which is not what we were set up to be as a country and government

What so many fail to grasp is that the private sector is doing that right now. THEY are subsidizing some at the expense of others. We ALL pay for the uninsured one way or another - higher taxes, higher premiums, higher healthcare costs .....

Under the private system we have in place right now we are also paying way more than we should be. Since emergency rooms can't turn folks away - the uninsured are going straight to the ER (the most expensive option available) for their primary care. And WE ALL wind up paying the price for that.

For better or worse we have decided that we are not the kind of society that is going to allow people to suffer and go untreated.

Fine, but let's do it in the most cost-effective way possible.

And folks who are so adament in protecting their right to choose whether or not to purchase insurance are pretty mum on the fact that doing so protects the "right" of the uninsured to continue dipping into my wallet to cover THEIR healthcare expenses. They are simply protecting their "mandate" and "encroachment on liberty" rhetoric - they are certainly not defending any principle of personal responsibility.

 

[ThePickledPunk]

The government wants to 'subsidize' some people at the expense of others.. which is the epitome of unequal treatment under government.. which is not what we were set up to be as a country and government

What so many fail to grasp is that the private sector is doing that right now. THEY are subsidizing some at the expense of others. We ALL pay for the uninsured one way or another - higher taxes, higher premiums, higher healthcare costs .....

Under the private system we have in place right now we are also paying way more than we should be. Since emergency rooms can't turn folks away - the uninsured are going straight to the ER (the most expensive option available) for their primary care. And WE ALL wind up paying the price for that.

For better or worse we have decided that we are not the kind of society that is going to allow people to suffer and go untreated.

Fine, but let's do it in the most cost-effective way possible.

And folks who are so adament in protecting their right to choose whether or not to purchase insurance are pretty mum on the fact that doing so protects the "right" of the uninsured to continue dipping into my wallet to cover THEIR healthcare expenses. They are simply protecting their "mandate" and "encroachment on liberty" rhetoric - they are certainly not defending any principle of personal responsibility.

soooooooo, anytime the failure of one to pay causes in increase in cost to the whole- government should step in to protect us all......

 

[nodoginnafight]

MHO - is that it is the legitimate role of government to encourage REAL personal responsibility. People who can afford to contribute to their own healthcare expenses, should be expected to - rather than excercising their "right" to have me pick up 100% of their expenses so they can save their money for the BIG cable TV package.