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And if he doesn't deny it -- He needs to explain HIS VERSION of how radiative heat transfers happen...
You got that backwards. It's astounding that you think the second law applies to refrigerators but not everything else in the universe. Can you tell my why you think refrigerators explain atmospheric physics?You think the second law applies to photons, but not to every other thing in the universe? Interesting. Tell me, other than photons, what else do you believe is exempt from the second law of thermodynamics?
Not rigorously no.. Because that's not a thermodynamic process. It's an electron charge driven process. But it's PROPAGATION equations are identical to propagation equations for heat in CONDUCTION for materials.
Maybe you should go back and re read that section from hyper physics and try to grasp what it actually said.
Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object.
And then it went on to say that that law precluded a perfect refrigerator...why do you believe that the laws of physics would behave differently for a refrigerator than they would in the atmosphere.
.neither heat nor energy will move spontaneously from cool to warm.
I'm still waiting for a reference from you with repeatable, observable, evidence that the second law is valid. A mathematical proof would be OK too.Sure...here is "my" version.... It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object.
Simple as that...either you can prove it wrong via empirical evidence which would result in rewriting the law or you can not....we both know which it is......not
member: 40906"]Maybe you should go back and re read that section from hyper physics and try to grasp what it actually said.
That is what Clausius thought in 1854, when he was unaware of radiation. Einstein et.al. said radiation energy does flow spontaneously from any object to any other object.
Why do you believe that radiation acts like a refrigerator?
Heat will move spontaneously from cool to warm. Radiation has no such constraint.
I'm still waiting for a reference from you with repeatable, observable, evidence that the second law is valid. A mathematical proof would be OK too.Sure...here is "my" version.... It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object.
Simple as that...either you can prove it wrong via empirical evidence which would result in rewriting the law or you can not....we both know which it is......not
I
And if he doesn't deny it -- He needs to explain HIS VERSION of how radiative heat transfers happen...
Sure...here is "my" version.... It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object.
Simple as that...either you can prove it wrong via empirical evidence which would result in rewriting the law or you can not....we both know which it is......not.
Yes, the CMB experiment is a perfect example of thermal radiation from a cold object hitting a warmer radio antenna dish. The cosmic background emits thermal radiation not "resonance radio signals". You will have to carefully state how thermal radiation from the cosmos has anything to do with resonance.And you have observed measured evidence of this? And don't claim that an antenna receiving a resonance radio signal is evidence because it isn't.
Do you think your acting like a 5 year old is cute?You think sounding like a 5 year old is cute?
You think that is proof of anything? Generalizations are never a proof. So you don't have any proof do you.How about every observation ever made in the history of the universe.....Can't do much better than that.
Yes SSDD, you are nuts. There is a lot of pathology in your posts, but I think you are more of an immature troll who is nuts. Crying for attention. You have no self pride though and are willing to demean yourself just for the futile appearance of trying to seem intelligent.SSDD is nuts.
ok, let me step in for a moment here, where I agree that all objects radiate, where does it go? you say the IR makes it to the surface, I say it doesn't and it doesn't because there are pressures that keep it from getting there.I
And if he doesn't deny it -- He needs to explain HIS VERSION of how radiative heat transfers happen...
Sure...here is "my" version.... It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object.
Simple as that...either you can prove it wrong via empirical evidence which would result in rewriting the law or you can not....we both know which it is......not.
Heat only flows from warm to cool...correct.
But radiation energy is produced by every object above zero degrees Kelvin, in all directions, including towards warmer objects. This is caused by collisions, hence its random nature.
Heat only flows in one direction because warmer object give off higher energy photons on average, and more of them, because there are more collisions and at higher speeds. The net energy transfer is always more from the warm object than it receives back from the cool one.
SSDD is nuts.
ok, let me step in for a moment here, where I agree that all objects radiate, where does it go? you say the IR makes it to the surface, I say it doesn't and it doesn't because there are pressures that keep it from getting there.I
And if he doesn't deny it -- He needs to explain HIS VERSION of how radiative heat transfers happen...
Sure...here is "my" version.... It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object.
Simple as that...either you can prove it wrong via empirical evidence which would result in rewriting the law or you can not....we both know which it is......not.
Heat only flows from warm to cool...correct.
But radiation energy is produced by every object above zero degrees Kelvin, in all directions, including towards warmer objects. This is caused by collisions, hence its random nature.
Heat only flows in one direction because warmer object give off higher energy photons on average, and more of them, because there are more collisions and at higher speeds. The net energy transfer is always more from the warm object than it receives back from the cool one.
SSDD is nuts.
BTW, Judith Curry doesn't believe in back radiation.
wator vapor, clouds, barometric pressure.ok, let me step in for a moment here, where I agree that all objects radiate, where does it go? you say the IR makes it to the surface, I say it doesn't and it doesn't because there are pressures that keep it from getting there.I
And if he doesn't deny it -- He needs to explain HIS VERSION of how radiative heat transfers happen...
Sure...here is "my" version.... It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object.
Simple as that...either you can prove it wrong via empirical evidence which would result in rewriting the law or you can not....we both know which it is......not.
Heat only flows from warm to cool...correct.
But radiation energy is produced by every object above zero degrees Kelvin, in all directions, including towards warmer objects. This is caused by collisions, hence its random nature.
Heat only flows in one direction because warmer object give off higher energy photons on average, and more of them, because there are more collisions and at higher speeds. The net energy transfer is always more from the warm object than it receives back from the cool one.
SSDD is nuts.
BTW, Judith Curry doesn't believe in back radiation.
Link to the Curry quote. I believe you have misunderstood something.
Explain this 'pressure' thing. Photons can only be absorbed or reflected. Either way there is a transfer of momentum, a la entropy. One of the thermodynamic laws that SSDD chooses to ignore.
I
And if he doesn't deny it -- He needs to explain HIS VERSION of how radiative heat transfers happen...
Sure...here is "my" version.... It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object.
Simple as that...either you can prove it wrong via empirical evidence which would result in rewriting the law or you can not....we both know which it is......not.
ok, let me step in for a moment here, where I agree that all objects radiate, where does it go? you say the IR makes it to the surface, I say it doesn't and it doesn't because there are pressures that keep it from getting there.I
And if he doesn't deny it -- He needs to explain HIS VERSION of how radiative heat transfers happen...
Sure...here is "my" version.... It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object.
Simple as that...either you can prove it wrong via empirical evidence which would result in rewriting the law or you can not....we both know which it is......not.
Heat only flows from warm to cool...correct.
But radiation energy is produced by every object above zero degrees Kelvin, in all directions, including towards warmer objects. This is caused by collisions, hence its random nature.
Heat only flows in one direction because warmer object give off higher energy photons on average, and more of them, because there are more collisions and at higher speeds. The net energy transfer is always more from the warm object than it receives back from the cool one.
SSDD is nuts.
BTW, Judith Curry doesn't believe in back radiation.
wator vapor, clouds, barometric pressure.ok, let me step in for a moment here, where I agree that all objects radiate, where does it go? you say the IR makes it to the surface, I say it doesn't and it doesn't because there are pressures that keep it from getting there.I
And if he doesn't deny it -- He needs to explain HIS VERSION of how radiative heat transfers happen...
Sure...here is "my" version.... It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object.
Simple as that...either you can prove it wrong via empirical evidence which would result in rewriting the law or you can not....we both know which it is......not.
Heat only flows from warm to cool...correct.
But radiation energy is produced by every object above zero degrees Kelvin, in all directions, including towards warmer objects. This is caused by collisions, hence its random nature.
Heat only flows in one direction because warmer object give off higher energy photons on average, and more of them, because there are more collisions and at higher speeds. The net energy transfer is always more from the warm object than it receives back from the cool one.
SSDD is nuts.
BTW, Judith Curry doesn't believe in back radiation.
Link to the Curry quote. I believe you have misunderstood something.
Explain this 'pressure' thing. Photons can only be absorbed or reflected. Either way there is a transfer of momentum, a la entropy. One of the thermodynamic laws that SSDD chooses to ignore.
most likely temperature. The thing is it is not understood. Can you show how it works or is your answer that it radiates in all directions therefore it is?wator vapor, clouds, barometric pressure.ok, let me step in for a moment here, where I agree that all objects radiate, where does it go? you say the IR makes it to the surface, I say it doesn't and it doesn't because there are pressures that keep it from getting there.Sure...here is "my" version.... It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object.
Simple as that...either you can prove it wrong via empirical evidence which would result in rewriting the law or you can not....we both know which it is......not.
Heat only flows from warm to cool...correct.
But radiation energy is produced by every object above zero degrees Kelvin, in all directions, including towards warmer objects. This is caused by collisions, hence its random nature.
Heat only flows in one direction because warmer object give off higher energy photons on average, and more of them, because there are more collisions and at higher speeds. The net energy transfer is always more from the warm object than it receives back from the cool one.
SSDD is nuts.
BTW, Judith Curry doesn't believe in back radiation.
Link to the Curry quote. I believe you have misunderstood something.
Explain this 'pressure' thing. Photons can only be absorbed or reflected. Either way there is a transfer of momentum, a la entropy. One of the thermodynamic laws that SSDD chooses to ignore.
You're not making any sense. How do those things stop radiation?
most likely temperature. The thing is it is not understood. Can you show how it works or is your answer that it radiates in all directions therefore it is?wator vapor, clouds, barometric pressure.ok, let me step in for a moment here, where I agree that all objects radiate, where does it go? you say the IR makes it to the surface, I say it doesn't and it doesn't because there are pressures that keep it from getting there.Heat only flows from warm to cool...correct.
But radiation energy is produced by every object above zero degrees Kelvin, in all directions, including towards warmer objects. This is caused by collisions, hence its random nature.
Heat only flows in one direction because warmer object give off higher energy photons on average, and more of them, because there are more collisions and at higher speeds. The net energy transfer is always more from the warm object than it receives back from the cool one.
SSDD is nuts.
BTW, Judith Curry doesn't believe in back radiation.
Link to the Curry quote. I believe you have misunderstood something.
Explain this 'pressure' thing. Photons can only be absorbed or reflected. Either way there is a transfer of momentum, a la entropy. One of the thermodynamic laws that SSDD chooses to ignore.
You're not making any sense. How do those things stop radiation?
BTW, I was in error it is she is still trying to understand it.
Here's a link for Judith:
Physics of the atmospheric greenhouse(?) effect
"There is a big gap between the simple explanations and the radiative transfer texts. The blogosphere has stepped in to fill the gap. Good explanations that I have come across are:
However, a gap remains in terms of explaining the actual physical mechanisms. Yes, these sites give good explanations of the basic physics of radiative transfer and the Earth’s radiative energy balance, and provide empirical evidence for the existence of the greenhouse effect. But a good mechanistic explanation of the physical processes occurring seems absent, including an explanation of how local thermodynamic equilibrium is established in response to the absorption of infrared radiation by a small number of molecules. I don’t have a full understanding of what the actual issues are with the greenhouse effect skeptics (I suspect that Roy Spencer is painfully aware), but I have just received a copy of Slaying the Greenhouse Dragon, which I will read this weekend."
- scienceofdoom
- Real Climate
- Chris Colose
- Skeptical Science
- presumably there are others that I’ve missed?
