Planned Parenthood Exposed - New Undercover Video

[Anguille]

Well, I'd say that I've given up any possibility of being responded to.

LOL! Well, stop making such good sense then!

 

[Anguille]

Put her in the hospital and force her to give birth. Yep, this is how I see the real agenda of the religious right.

btw, if the mother's suicidal tendencies are real she's pretty much going to self abort, don't you think? Two lives down the toilet instead of one. How Christian.

I don't know why that doesn't seem obvious to these zealots.

 

[Angel Heart]

I guess I just don't get how giving birth will make one MORE suicidal but aborting wouldn't?!

If you're that far along in your pregnancy you still have to "give birth" to the baby or fetus or whatever you choose to call it. They don't magically disolve and go away. The cervix must be dialated and the child delivered or a C-section performed to remove the body.

If the child is viable and is not presenting serious/fatal medical conditions of it's own then every step should be taken to save the child AND the mother whenever possible.

Exactly. In order to terminate, she has to deliver. Why not deliver a live baby?

 

[Silence]

It just amazes me how controlling some people try to be. And how judgmental they think they are entitled to be when clearly they've never even been in the situations of some people who who've had abortions.

Women should just be concerned with what is right or wrong for their own bodies and butt out of the lives of others. Trying to get laws passed to prevent another woman from doing what she believes is right just because it doesn't jive with what you yourself would do displays a willingness to abuse women.

I think you are either intentionally missing what the "zealots" are saying or are completely unsymapathetic to the FACT that it IS in fact a CHILD in question.

No one, as far as I can tell, is saying that a woman whose very life is in danger should be forced to die in order to give birth BUT you're not answering the question of IF the woman in question is more than 7 months along in her pregnancy and IF the baby is viable and IF the baby itself does not have life threatening health complications then WHY not ATTEMPT to deliver a LIVE baby instead of terminating is and delivering a dead one? that baby is coming out dead or alive, wouldn't alive be the better option for all involved whenever possible?

 

[Shogun]

this thread is like a dialog of the absolute best Trojan Brand condoms commercial never to have been seen.


Trojan Maaaaaaaan

 

[Silence]

Ummm, isn't that why anyone who has an abortion has one? So as not to be pregnant anymore?

You don't state her reasons, perhaps she had become bankrupt and homeless, had developed diabetes, did not want to bring a child into the world only to have to put it up for adoption. She may not even have known she was pregnant till then. Some women continue to have periods all the way through pregnancy and never get morning sickness or other things that clue them in that they are pregnant till they start to show. Those are off the top of my head, reasons that, I ,personally would have an abortion. They are not reasons why I would expect anyone else to have an abortion and i'm sure there are reasons others chose abortion for which I would not.
My point is, is it's really no one's business why another woman has an abortion. This thread is just getting super catty, IMO.

you are on the opposite end of the right to life argument and IMO both of those extremes are unacceptable. There is no place for such hardline ALL OR NOTHING standards when it comes to the issue of abortion.

You seem to be saying a woman should be allowed to terminate up until the moment of delivery....what if she goes into labor and it's just to painful and she says KILL IT, I don't want to do this anymore" should she be allowed to do that? From what I can see you saying, you'd say yes, go ahead and kill it, then dismember the baby in utero and pull it out piece by piece so this woman doesn't have to go through the pain of delivery.

Then on the other side there are people who say regardless of circumstance, rape, incest, health/life of the mother, health/life of the fetus, a woman should carry EVERY pregnancy to term.

There is middle ground.

The real answer is reducing unwanted/unplanned pregnancy in the first place.

 

[Agnapostate]

Why is this thread turning into a stereotypical abortion debate, (which almost never changes anyone's POV), and not a discussion of parental notification and consent?

Moreover, why do people still continue to assert that "children" should not be permitted to make abortion decisions independently despite the evidence I have cited to the contrary?

 

[Silence]

Why is this thread turning into a stereotypical abortion debate, (which almost never changes anyone's POV), and not a discussion of parental notification and consent?

Moreover, why do people still continue to assert that "children" should not be permitted to make abortion decisions independently despite the evidence I have cited to the contrary?

you're equating regular medical decisions, such as treatment of diseases, with the decision to terminate a pregnancy which in fact entails much emotional and physical consequence to the person undergoing the procedure.

I believe in parental consent and notification whenever possible. In the event that is not possible a system should be in place to assist those girls who can not obtain the support and advice of a parent or guardian.

 

[random3434]

Ummm, isn't that why anyone who has an abortion has one? So as not to be pregnant anymore?

You don't state her reasons, perhaps she had become bankrupt and homeless, had developed diabetes, did not want to bring a child into the world only to have to put it up for adoption. She may not even have known she was pregnant till then. Some women continue to have periods all the way through pregnancy and never get morning sickness or other things that clue them in that they are pregnant till they start to show. Those are off the top of my head, reasons that, I ,personally would have an abortion. They are not reasons why I would expect anyone else to have an abortion and i'm sure there are reasons others chose abortion for which I would not.
My point is, is it's really no one's business why another woman has an abortion. This thread is just getting super catty, IMO.

Her reason was because she didn't want to have a baby. She was not sick, or poor, or didn't know...she just didn't want to continue the pregnancy.

She was 22 when this happened, her mother drove her to Kentucky to get it. Instead of waiting 3 more months then giving the baby up for adoption....she chose to have an abortion.

Now, this girl is one of my closet friends. When she told me I didn't shun her or hate her, I figured it was her CHOICE. Did I agree with it, hell no. But again, I only rule my body, nobody else rules it, just like she rules her own body.

 

[Silence]

Her reason was because she didn't want to have a baby. She was not sick, or poor, or didn't know...she just didn't want to continue the pregnancy.

She was 22 when this happened, her mother drove her to Kentucky to get it. Instead of waiting 3 more months then giving the baby up for adoption....she chose to have an abortion.

Now, this girl is one of my closet friends. When she told me I didn't shun her or hate her, I figured it was her CHOICE. Did I agree with it, hell no. But again, I only rule my body, nobody else rules it, just like she rules her own body.

having been pregnant I don't know how anyone could do something like that. she had felt the baby move by that point. One would hope there was more to the story that she didn't feel she could share rather than assume this girl was just cold and heartless.

 

[AllieBaba]

It just amazes me how controlling some people try to be. And how judgmental they think they are entitled to be when clearly they've never even been in the situations of some people who who've had abortions.

Women should just be concerned with what is right or wrong for their own bodies and butt out of the lives of others. Trying to get laws passed to prevent another woman from doing what she believes is right just because it doesn't jive with what you yourself would do displays a willingness to abuse women.

What if a woman believes it's right to starve her newborn by refusing to breastfeed and refusing to provide formula as well?

Sorry, the right to your own body ends when you use it as justification to kill. Women who take drugs while pregnant can be prosecuted. I find it laughable that idiots will prosecute addicts for harming their unborn children, while they will hold their hands and protect them while they dismember them in utero.

 

[Agnapostate]

you're equating regular medical decisions, such as treatment of diseases, with the decision to terminate a pregnancy which in fact entails much emotional and physical consequence to the person undergoing the procedure.

I believe in parental consent and notification whenever possible. In the event that is not possible a system should be in place to assist those girls who can not obtain the support and advice of a parent or guardian.

That is demonstrably false in the case of the Ambuel and Rappaport study, entitled Developmental trends in adolescents' psychological and legal competence to consent to abortion , and is still somewhat untrue in the cases of the other studies, which still assert a capacity of adolescents to make rational and informed decisions. I merely cited these because the parental notification/consent debate was so often drowned out with huffs of "If 'children' can't take an aspirin at school without parental consent, how can they have major surgery?!" I was merely operating on the premise that the two were comparable, and find it curious that you suddenly declare that they are not.

 

[AllieBaba]

So I guess it's alright for adolescents to marry men much older than themselves and have babies?

 

[Agnapostate]

So I guess it's alright for adolescents to marry men much older than themselves and have babies?

Given that they possess the capacity to make rational and informed decisions, can you state a reason why not?

 

[Gem]

Agna,

While you gave several examples of societies that viewed sexuality differently than ours...it still stands that we are talking about our society and how it views sexuality. We do not live in Samoa, we are not Cherokee...we are Americans living in this culture. And in this culture, we currently do not identify a menstruating 10 year old as an adult.

You continue to site studies where young people have made intelligent health decisions. Interesting stuff, thank you for posting it, but it is not surprising. I would not have doubted prior to your posting it that young people when given the facts could make choices about life-threatening illnesses and necessary treatments.

Where I think the studies and this debate differ...is that many here, myself included, see abortion as a different type of medical procedure. The choice of abortion is most often, not one made for physical health reasons - but reasons of convenience, finance, and social pressures. It is an entirely different type of critical thinking that takes place when one is deciding whether or not to amputate a leg in order to keep oneself alive due to advance diabetes...or whether or not to get an abortion so that one's life is not disrupted by 9 months of pregnancy. Because of this, our society has deemed it important to make sure that a child, by our societies definition, understands the complexities of what might happen to her body if she carries that baby to term, the health risks associated with a small body such as a 10 year olds carrying through a long term pregnancy, etc. and what might happen if she decides to terminate that pregnancy.

An 11 year old might think that getting a Hannah Montana tattoo is the most brilliant decision they can possibly make. Most adults (by our societies definition of 18 or older), would recognize that while the 11 year old might love that idea now...they will probably regret it later. And hence, our society has deemed that until a child is 18...they will have to seek parental support/guidance/permission before making those choices.

Is the 18 age arbitrary? Absolutely. And I certainly know plenty of people who got tattoos in their late teens and 20s that they now regret. In previous times, 18 was considered a mature adult. But again...we are not speaking about other times or cultures...we are speaking about our culture - which currently recognizes a persons ability to make decisions for themselves without any guidance as 18.

If we want to discuss how we would go about changing our view of what a child is and what an adult is...that would be an interesting topic. But I think that the reason you feel you have received lack of response...is because people do not feel that simply because other cultures treat 10, 11, 12 year olds as adults..means that it should automatically be done in our culture.

 

[Shogun]

as if that shit didn't happen regularly in CHRISTIANITY up until the creation of the term adolescent. pshhhhsssshh...



TROJAN MAAAAAAAAN

 

[eots]

55% of minors who have abortions do not tell their parents (AGI).

32 states currently enforce parental consent or notification laws for minors seeking an abortion: AL, AR, AZ, DE, GA, IA, ID, IN, KS, KY, LA, MA, MD, MI, MN, MO, MS, NC, ND, NE, OH, PA, RI, SC, SD, TN, TX, UT, VA, WI, WV, and WY. The Supreme Court ruled that minors must have the alternative of seeking a court order authorizing the procedure (AGI).



Adolescents under 15 years obtained less than 1% of all abortions, but have the highest abortion ratio, 744 abortions for every 1,000 live births (CDC).

48% of women who have abortions had at least one previous abortion

WHY ARE ABORTIONS PERFORMED?
On average, women give at least 3 reasons for choosing abortion: 3/4 say that having a baby would interfere with work, school or other responsibilities; about 2/3 say they cannot afford a child; and 1/2 say they do not want to be a single parent or are having problems with their husband or partner (AGI).

97% of abortion facilities provide abortion at 8 weeks, and 86% provide services at 12 weeks, but provision drops off steeply after that, with only 13% of providers offering services at 24 weeks (AGI).

9 in 10 women at risk of unintended pregnancy are using a contraceptive method (AGI).

54% of women having abortions used a contraceptive method during the month they became pregnant. 76% of pill users and 49% of condom users reported using the methods inconsistently, while 13% of pill users and 14% of condom users reported correct use (AGI).


82% of all abortions are performed on unmarried women (CDC).

The abortion ratio for unmarried women is 572 abortions for every 1,000 live births. For married women it is 65 abortions for every 1,000 live births (CDC).

Women between the ages of 20-24 obtained 33% of all abortions (CDC).

52% of U.S. women obtaining abortions are younger than 25, and teenagers obtain 19% (AGI).

The national legal induced abortion ratio increased from 196 abortions per 1,000 live births in 1973 to 358 abortions per 1,000 in 1979 and remained nearly stable through 1981. The ratio peaked at 364 abortions per 1,000 live births in 1984 and since then has demonstrated a generally steady decline. In 2001, the abortion ratio was 246 abortions per 1,000 live births (for the states that reported, a 0.4% increase from 2000 (CDC).

49% of pregnancies among American women are unintended; about 40% of these are terminated by abortion (AGI).

U.S. Abortion Statistics

 

[Silence]

thanks for the statistics eots.

and Gem for your spot on post!

 

[Agnapostate]

Agna,

While you gave several examples of societies that viewed sexuality differently than ours...it still stands that we are talking about our society and how it views sexuality. We do not live in Samoa, we are not Cherokee...we are Americans living in this culture. And in this culture, we currently do not identify a menstruating 10 year old as an adult.

I don't think you understand the difference between descriptive observations and prescriptive recommendations. I shall first say that the development of adolescence in American society itself is a fairly recent phenomenon, as I have evidenced through tracking the implementation of legal restrictions on adolescents. It is a period of life that did not exist in American society prior to the Industrial Revolution. That is the descriptive section.

Now, it is my contention that adolescence is an unnecessary phase in human life, and should be abolished, given that it is such a recent invention that has only had the effect of infantilizing youth and inhibiting their full range of capacities. This is not so radical a position as you might believe. Newt Gingrich agrees with me.

You continue to site studies where young people have made intelligent health decisions. Interesting stuff, thank you for posting it, but it is not surprising. I would not have doubted prior to your posting it that young people when given the facts could make choices about life-threatening illnesses and necessary treatments.

Where I think the studies and this debate differ...is that many here, myself included, see abortion as a different type of medical procedure. The choice of abortion is most often, not one made for physical health reasons - but reasons of convenience, finance, and social pressures. It is an entirely different type of critical thinking that takes place when one is deciding whether or not to amputate a leg in order to keep oneself alive due to advance diabetes...or whether or not to get an abortion so that one's life is not disrupted by 9 months of pregnancy.

As I said, this is directly contradicted by Ambuel and Rappaport's study, as it is entitled Developmental trends in adolescents' psychological and legal competence to consent to abortion. But more than that, all of the studies posted have indicated that even rather young adolescents have the capacity to make rational and informed decisions, and this is not limited to issues of medical consent. I must also ask why the charge of "Minors aren't even allowed to receive an aspirin at school without parental consent, so why should they be allowed to obtain major surgery?" is so often repeated if abortion has so little to do with other issues of informed medical consent.

An 11 year old might think that getting a Hannah Montana tattoo is the most brilliant decision they can possibly make. Most adults (by our societies definition of 18 or older), would recognize that while the 11 year old might love that idea now...they will probably regret it later. And hence, our society has deemed that until a child is 18...they will have to seek parental support/guidance/permission before making those choices.

Again, descriptive rather than prescriptive, and partially rebutted by the studies that I posted.

Is the 18 age arbitrary? Absolutely. In previous times, 18 was considered a mature adult. But again...we are not speaking about other times or cultures...we are speaking about our culture.

See above.

If we want to discuss how we would go about changing our view of what a child is and what an adult is...that would be an interesting topic. But I think that the reason you feel you have received lack of response...is because people do not feel that simply because other cultures treat 10, 11, 12 year olds as adults..means that it should automatically be done in our culture.

Nor do I. I believe it should be done because it clearly offers a greater capacity for individuals to achieve a wider range of abilities, skills, and general personality than the current setup does. The issue of parental consent for any medical procedure is a critical component of this discussion.

 

[Amanda]

If we want to discuss how we would go about changing our view of what a child is and what an adult is...that would be an interesting topic.

Good luck with that, I tried several times and no one seemed interested.