Plenty of "Good Guys with Guns" But 6 Injured Anyway

[Brain357]

Not if you live in California...or Colorado or Illinois or New York or Oregon or Rhode Island.

Good thing those background checks have led to lower rates of murder and violence in those states! Oh, wait, not so much...

Not that far a drive to the next state.

And you have evidence that criminals in South Central LA or Chicago are driving to states to acquire firearms legally?

Didn't think so.

In fact, according to BATF report #133664 (California Tracing Reports for 2012), less than 5% of traced guns in California, many of which were not crime guns, came from neighboring Nevada and Arizona.

Sorry, you don't get to make shit up.

Private Gun Sale Loophole Creates Invisible Firearms Market, Prompts Calls For Reform

 

[eflatminor]

Not that far a drive to the next state.

And you have evidence that criminals in South Central LA or Chicago are driving to states to acquire firearms legally?

Didn't think so.

In fact, according to BATF report #133664 (California Tracing Reports for 2012), less than 5% of traced guns in California, many of which were not crime guns, came from neighboring Nevada and Arizona.

Sorry, you don't get to make shit up.

Private Gun Sale Loophole Creates Invisible Firearms Market, Prompts Calls For Reform

Thank you for proving my point. Your little link falls prey to the logically fallacy anecdotal. It cites two, yes TWO incidents of criminals obtaining firearms in neighboring states.

Hardly conclusive evidence and about what we've come to expect from 'ol HuffPo.

So you don't look so damn foolish next time:

anecdotal - Using personal experience or an isolated example instead of a valid argument, especially to dismiss statistics.

Better luck next time.

 

[Brain357]

And you have evidence that criminals in South Central LA or Chicago are driving to states to acquire firearms legally?

Didn't think so.

In fact, according to BATF report #133664 (California Tracing Reports for 2012), less than 5% of traced guns in California, many of which were not crime guns, came from neighboring Nevada and Arizona.

Sorry, you don't get to make shit up.

Private Gun Sale Loophole Creates Invisible Firearms Market, Prompts Calls For Reform

Thank you for proving my point. Your little link falls prey to the logically fallacy anecdotal. It cites two, yes TWO incidents of criminals obtaining firearms in neighboring states.

Hardly conclusive evidence and about what we've come to expect from 'ol HuffPo.

So you don't look so damn foolish next time:

anecdotal - Using personal experience or an isolated example instead of a valid argument, especially to dismiss statistics.

Better luck next time.

Sorry but it's not made up because it happens.

 

[eflatminor]

Not that far a drive to the next state.

And you have evidence that criminals in South Central LA or Chicago are driving to states to acquire firearms legally?

Didn't think so.

In fact, according to BATF report #133664 (California Tracing Reports for 2012), less than 5% of traced guns in California, many of which were not crime guns, came from neighboring Nevada and Arizona.

Sorry, you don't get to make shit up.

Without registering guns how do we know where they come from? What percent of guns are traced?

Yet another logical fallacy: tu quoque - Avoiding having to engage with criticism by turning it back on the accuser - answering criticism with criticism.

You really aren't very good at this!

Further, firearms in California are registered and have been for decades. If you want to claim that the BATF didn't take a statistically significant sample size, have at it.

You're really looking foolish here pal....

 

[eflatminor]

Guns everywhere is not going to solve the problem of crazies with guns. Sorry.

Once again, you're making shit up. No one is advocating "guns everywhere". No one is saying the absence of gun free zones will "solve the problem of crazies with guns".

Lying and making shit up is not helping you case.

What we are saying is that an individual ought not to be prevented from effectively defending himself, which is what gun free zones do. I really don't give a shit if you choose to allow yourself to be gunned down by the crazy. It's not like that would be a blow to the gene pool. What I do care about is the you seem to think you know what's best for everyone else. Guess what? You really don't.

Sorry.

You have some examples of people defending themselves in mass shooting?

Yes, but I will not provide anecdotal evidence to support my case. That's not the point. The point is that you should not get to decide who is able and who is prevented from defending themselves.

Fail.

 

[eflatminor]

Private Gun Sale Loophole Creates Invisible Firearms Market, Prompts Calls For Reform

Thank you for proving my point. Your little link falls prey to the logically fallacy anecdotal. It cites two, yes TWO incidents of criminals obtaining firearms in neighboring states.

Hardly conclusive evidence and about what we've come to expect from 'ol HuffPo.

So you don't look so damn foolish next time:

anecdotal - Using personal experience or an isolated example instead of a valid argument, especially to dismiss statistics.

Better luck next time.

Sorry but it's not made up because it happens.

Yes, apparently twice.

Fail again!

Oh, and you should stop lying. I never stated it was "made up", only that you relied on anecdotes in the fact of actual statistics. Thou shall not commit logic fallacies!

 

[Brain357]

Thank you for proving my point. Your little link falls prey to the logically fallacy anecdotal. It cites two, yes TWO incidents of criminals obtaining firearms in neighboring states.

Hardly conclusive evidence and about what we've come to expect from 'ol HuffPo.

So you don't look so damn foolish next time:

anecdotal - Using personal experience or an isolated example instead of a valid argument, especially to dismiss statistics.

Better luck next time.

Sorry but it's not made up because it happens.

Yes, apparently twice.

Fail again!

You said it was made up. You fail.

 

[Brain357]

Once again, you're making shit up. No one is advocating "guns everywhere". No one is saying the absence of gun free zones will "solve the problem of crazies with guns".

Lying and making shit up is not helping you case.

What we are saying is that an individual ought not to be prevented from effectively defending himself, which is what gun free zones do. I really don't give a shit if you choose to allow yourself to be gunned down by the crazy. It's not like that would be a blow to the gene pool. What I do care about is the you seem to think you know what's best for everyone else. Guess what? You really don't.

Sorry.

You have some examples of people defending themselves in mass shooting?

Yes, but I will not provide anecdotal evidence to support my case. That's not the point. The point is that you should not get to decide who is able and who is prevented from defending themselves.

Fail.

So it doesn't really happen. I see.

 

[eflatminor]

You have some examples of people defending themselves in mass shooting?

Yes, but I will not provide anecdotal evidence to support my case. That's not the point. The point is that you should not get to decide who is able and who is prevented from defending themselves.

Fail.

So it doesn't really happen. I see.

Actually it does. And you'll not suck me into logical fallacies. That's your bag.

I do see that you completely avoided addressing my point.

Telling.

 

[eflatminor]

Sorry but it's not made up because it happens.

Yes, apparently twice.

Fail again!

You said it was made up. You fail.

Where, exactly?

 

[Brain357]

Not if you live in California...or Colorado or Illinois or New York or Oregon or Rhode Island.

Good thing those background checks have led to lower rates of murder and violence in those states! Oh, wait, not so much...

Not that far a drive to the next state.

And you have evidence that criminals in South Central LA or Chicago are driving to states to acquire firearms legally?

Didn't think so.

In fact, according to BATF report #133664 (California Tracing Reports for 2012), less than 5% of traced guns in California, many of which were not crime guns, came from neighboring Nevada and Arizona.

Sorry, you don't get to make shit up.

You did say I was making it up. Now stop lying.

 

[WinterBorn]

He worked there. Wouldn't he get buzzed in and then shoot the guard?

As I understood it, the security guard was shot outside, in the parking lot. So once that happened, the door should not have been opened.

In prior work locations we have worked out various ways of notifying employees that there is a situation. Whether it be fire alarms, storm warnings, or discreet ways of letting people know there was a violent person loose on the property. That sort of plan is required by OSHA, since workplace violence is a potential hazard at almost any facility.

Yes that's how it was done given the security they had. But if they had to get buzzed in he would have done it after getting buzzed in. He worked there so getting buzzed in wouldn't be a problem. The navy yard guy got through this way I believe.

So people are alerted to something, what can they do? Gun shots are a pretty loud warning.

Since he was carrying a shotgun, it would not have been difficult for the security guard to see that he was armed. Most places I have worked that had a security guard outside, you had to show and ID and be prepared to open bags ect. This would have alerted the people inside that there was a shooter and he would not have been given access.

If people are alerted to the danger, and a plan is in place, they would go to some secure location inside and wait for police to arrive. It is all about planning for the event.

 

[eflatminor]

Not that far a drive to the next state.

And you have evidence that criminals in South Central LA or Chicago are driving to states to acquire firearms legally?

Didn't think so.

In fact, according to BATF report #133664 (California Tracing Reports for 2012), less than 5% of traced guns in California, many of which were not crime guns, came from neighboring Nevada and Arizona.

Sorry, you don't get to make shit up.

You did say I was making it up. Now stop lying.

Ah! Sorry, yes. Let me be clear. What you "made up" was implying that there is any significant evidence of criminals obtaining firearms from other states. You then confirmed this bullshit by citing only two examples...clearly an anecdotal argument.

That's making shit up. Sorry, it just is.

 

[Brain357]

As I understood it, the security guard was shot outside, in the parking lot. So once that happened, the door should not have been opened.

In prior work locations we have worked out various ways of notifying employees that there is a situation. Whether it be fire alarms, storm warnings, or discreet ways of letting people know there was a violent person loose on the property. That sort of plan is required by OSHA, since workplace violence is a potential hazard at almost any facility.

Yes that's how it was done given the security they had. But if they had to get buzzed in he would have done it after getting buzzed in. He worked there so getting buzzed in wouldn't be a problem. The navy yard guy got through this way I believe.

So people are alerted to something, what can they do? Gun shots are a pretty loud warning.

Since he was carrying a shotgun, it would not have been difficult for the security guard to see that he was armed. Most places I have worked that had a security guard outside, you had to show and ID and be prepared to open bags ect. This would have alerted the people inside that there was a shooter and he would not have been given access.

If people are alerted to the danger, and a plan is in place, they would go to some secure location inside and wait for police to arrive. It is all about planning for the event.

But he works there and would be fully aware of security. He'd either get a pistol or saw off his shotgun and put it in a bag. The navy yard shooter snuck his gun in a bag.

He would also be aware of this secure location. So he'd know exactly where everyone was going. That seems less safe.

 

[eflatminor]

With the caveat that this is clearly anecdotal evidence, here is a list of 16 mass shooting stopped or minimized by armed citizens:

List of 16 mass shootings stopped by Armed Citizens - Illinois Tactical Blog

One reason there aren't more might have to do with the fact that the OVERWHELMING majority of mass shooting occur in 'gun free zones' where no law abiding citizen can possess the means to intervene. Duh.

 

[Brain357]

And you have evidence that criminals in South Central LA or Chicago are driving to states to acquire firearms legally?

Didn't think so.

In fact, according to BATF report #133664 (California Tracing Reports for 2012), less than 5% of traced guns in California, many of which were not crime guns, came from neighboring Nevada and Arizona.

Sorry, you don't get to make shit up.

You did say I was making it up. Now stop lying.

Ah! Sorry, yes. Let me be clear. What you "made up" was implying that there is any significant evidence of criminals obtaining firearms from other states. You then confirmed this bullshit by citing only two examples...clearly an anecdotal argument.

That's making shit up. Sorry, it just is.

I have proven it happens. You fail. How many examples you need?

 

[Brain357]

With the caveat that this is clearly anecdotal evidence, here is a list of 16 mass shooting stopped or minimized by armed citizens:

List of 16 mass shootings stopped by Armed Citizens - Illinois Tactical Blog

One reason there aren't more might have to do with the fact that the OVERWHELMING majority of mass shooting occur in 'gun free zones' where no law abiding citizen can possess the means to intervene. Duh.

Any of these stop the shooter before he kills people?

 

[WinterBorn]

Yes that's how it was done given the security they had. But if they had to get buzzed in he would have done it after getting buzzed in. He worked there so getting buzzed in wouldn't be a problem. The navy yard guy got through this way I believe.

So people are alerted to something, what can they do? Gun shots are a pretty loud warning.

Since he was carrying a shotgun, it would not have been difficult for the security guard to see that he was armed. Most places I have worked that had a security guard outside, you had to show and ID and be prepared to open bags ect. This would have alerted the people inside that there was a shooter and he would not have been given access.

If people are alerted to the danger, and a plan is in place, they would go to some secure location inside and wait for police to arrive. It is all about planning for the event.

But he works there and would be fully aware of security. He'd either get a pistol or saw off his shotgun and put it in a bag. The navy yard shooter snuck his gun in a bag.

He would also be aware of this secure location. So he'd know exactly where everyone was going. That seems less safe.

So you are asking me to give you an action plan that guarantees that no employees will be harmed, ever? Cannot be done in a free society.

I could list people who were killed in their workplace, in a single event, without the killer ever entering the building.

But the list of the 168 people who died when Timothy McVeigh's homemade bomb went off would take a lot of space. I think you still get the point.


As for the employee knowing where everyone went, that is not necessarily true. The one that I designed in 2001 (for the location where I was based) did not tell everyone where to go. They were told by department.

 

[WinterBorn]

With the caveat that this is clearly anecdotal evidence, here is a list of 16 mass shooting stopped or minimized by armed citizens:

List of 16 mass shootings stopped by Armed Citizens - Illinois Tactical Blog

One reason there aren't more might have to do with the fact that the OVERWHELMING majority of mass shooting occur in 'gun free zones' where no law abiding citizen can possess the means to intervene. Duh.

Any of these stop the shooter before he kills people?

At least the shooter was stopped before he killed any more.

In a free society you cannot possibly guarantee complete safety for anyone.

 

[eflatminor]

You did say I was making it up. Now stop lying.

Ah! Sorry, yes. Let me be clear. What you "made up" was implying that there is any significant evidence of criminals obtaining firearms from other states. You then confirmed this bullshit by citing only two examples...clearly an anecdotal argument.

That's making shit up. Sorry, it just is.

I have proven it happens.

By citing two examples out of hundreds of thousands of examples of criminals using firearms in the commission of their crime.

Thanks for making my point!

You fail.

You keep using this word. I do not think you know what it means.

How many examples you need?

I don't need examples. I need actual evidence. Real statistics. You know, proof.

And further, that evidence will have to counter the OVERWHELMING evidence that criminals do not obtain firearms legally in one state and them take them to another, but that they obtain them illegally in the state in which they commit their crime. For example:

Five out of six gun-possessing felons obtained handguns from the secondary market and by theft, and “[the] criminal handgun market is overwhelmingly dominated by informal transactions and theft as mechanisms of supply.” - The Armed Criminal in America: A Survey of Incarcerated Felons , James D. Wright, Peter H. Rossi, National Institute of Justice (U.S.), 1985

The majority of handguns in the possession of criminals are stolen, and not necessarily by the criminals in question. - Targeting Guns: Firearms and Their Control, Gary Kleck, Aldine de Gruyter, 1997

Over 100,000 firearms are stolen in burglaries every year, and most of them likely enter the criminal market (i.e., are sold or traded to criminals). - Victimization During Household Burglary, Bureau of Justice Statistics, September 2010

Good luck!