Plenty of "Good Guys with Guns" But 6 Injured Anyway

[Spoonman]

With the caveat that this is clearly anecdotal evidence, here is a list of 16 mass shooting stopped or minimized by armed citizens:

List of 16 mass shootings stopped by Armed Citizens - Illinois Tactical Blog

One reason there aren't more might have to do with the fact that the OVERWHELMING majority of mass shooting occur in 'gun free zones' where no law abiding citizen can possess the means to intervene. Duh.

Any of these stop the shooter before he kills people?

any background checks ever stop a mass murder?

 

[eflatminor]

With the caveat that this is clearly anecdotal evidence, here is a list of 16 mass shooting stopped or minimized by armed citizens:

List of 16 mass shootings stopped by Armed Citizens - Illinois Tactical Blog

One reason there aren't more might have to do with the fact that the OVERWHELMING majority of mass shooting occur in 'gun free zones' where no law abiding citizen can possess the means to intervene. Duh.

Any of these stop the shooter before he kills people?

Yes. Do you have a reading comprehension issue?

 

[martybegan]

Hey was it that weird fucker Marty that couldn't address what I wrote without injecting a bunch of nonsense into the post.

You're kind of a fucked up poster there Marty.

Marty, do you think sex and guns go together? Is that how you get off? Waving a gun in front of you sex partners face while chanting transgender transgender transgender.

I only ask because you seemed so intent on discussing sex, bathrooms and reproductive rights in a gun thread. Weird dude. Or whatever you are.

But when you see something like a marty have to alter a post like he did, you can be pretty sure that the altered post kicked some right winger gun nut ass. Or you wouldn't have felt such a need to alter my post.

Right Marty?

Butthurt much? Or too dense to see you have been pwned?

Go back and sulk a bit more.

and There is nothing wrong with the way i changed the post. your original is quoted unedited. I just modified the rant to school your ass.

 

[Brain357]

Since he was carrying a shotgun, it would not have been difficult for the security guard to see that he was armed. Most places I have worked that had a security guard outside, you had to show and ID and be prepared to open bags ect. This would have alerted the people inside that there was a shooter and he would not have been given access.

If people are alerted to the danger, and a plan is in place, they would go to some secure location inside and wait for police to arrive. It is all about planning for the event.

But he works there and would be fully aware of security. He'd either get a pistol or saw off his shotgun and put it in a bag. The navy yard shooter snuck his gun in a bag.

He would also be aware of this secure location. So he'd know exactly where everyone was going. That seems less safe.

So you are asking me to give you an action plan that guarantees that no employees will be harmed, ever? Cannot be done in a free society.

I could list people who were killed in their workplace, in a single event, without the killer ever entering the building.

But the list of the 168 people who died when Timothy McVeigh's homemade bomb went off would take a lot of space. I think you still get the point.


As for the employee knowing where everyone went, that is not necessarily true. The one that I designed in 2001 (for the location where I was based) did not tell everyone where to go. They were told by department.

I'm looking for ideas that aren't easy to go around. I appreciate you have ideas, but just don't think they would make a difference. I think you'd need armed guards at the gate and a metal detector to be effective. Don't see that as practical. And you couldn't do that at a walmart.

 

[Brain357]

Ah! Sorry, yes. Let me be clear. What you "made up" was implying that there is any significant evidence of criminals obtaining firearms from other states. You then confirmed this bullshit by citing only two examples...clearly an anecdotal argument.

That's making shit up. Sorry, it just is.

I have proven it happens.

By citing two examples out of hundreds of thousands of examples of criminals using firearms in the commission of their crime.

Thanks for making my point!

You fail.

You keep using this word. I do not think you know what it means.

How many examples you need?

I don't need examples. I need actual evidence. Real statistics. You know, proof.

And further, that evidence will have to counter the OVERWHELMING evidence that criminals do not obtain firearms legally in one state and them take them to another, but that they obtain them illegally in the state in which they commit their crime. For example:

Five out of six gun-possessing felons obtained handguns from the secondary market and by theft, and “[the] criminal handgun market is overwhelmingly dominated by informal transactions and theft as mechanisms of supply.” - The Armed Criminal in America: A Survey of Incarcerated Felons , James D. Wright, Peter H. Rossi, National Institute of Justice (U.S.), 1985

The majority of handguns in the possession of criminals are stolen, and not necessarily by the criminals in question. - Targeting Guns: Firearms and Their Control, Gary Kleck, Aldine de Gruyter, 1997

Over 100,000 firearms are stolen in burglaries every year, and most of them likely enter the criminal market (i.e., are sold or traded to criminals). - Victimization During Household Burglary, Bureau of Justice Statistics, September 2010

Good luck!

So if guns are stolen from gun owners, aren't gun owners arming criminals? Sounds like gun ownership does more damage than good. NRA says you need a gun to protect your stuff, but owners get their guns stolen? Ouch.

 

[eflatminor]

But he works there and would be fully aware of security. He'd either get a pistol or saw off his shotgun and put it in a bag. The navy yard shooter snuck his gun in a bag.

He would also be aware of this secure location. So he'd know exactly where everyone was going. That seems less safe.

So you are asking me to give you an action plan that guarantees that no employees will be harmed, ever? Cannot be done in a free society.

I could list people who were killed in their workplace, in a single event, without the killer ever entering the building.

But the list of the 168 people who died when Timothy McVeigh's homemade bomb went off would take a lot of space. I think you still get the point.


As for the employee knowing where everyone went, that is not necessarily true. The one that I designed in 2001 (for the location where I was based) did not tell everyone where to go. They were told by department.

I'm looking for ideas that aren't easy to go around. I appreciate you have ideas, but just don't think they would make a difference. I think you'd need armed guards at the gate and a metal detector to be effective. Don't see that as practical. And you couldn't do that at a walmart.

Sounds like you're beginning to understand that there are no practical measures to prevent crazy fucks from doing crazy things and it therefore makes no sense to restrict the ability of good law abiding citizens from defending themselves.

Perhaps there is hope for logic and reason after all!

 

[eflatminor]

I have proven it happens.

By citing two examples out of hundreds of thousands of examples of criminals using firearms in the commission of their crime.

Thanks for making my point!



You keep using this word. I do not think you know what it means.

How many examples you need?

I don't need examples. I need actual evidence. Real statistics. You know, proof.

And further, that evidence will have to counter the OVERWHELMING evidence that criminals do not obtain firearms legally in one state and them take them to another, but that they obtain them illegally in the state in which they commit their crime. For example:

Five out of six gun-possessing felons obtained handguns from the secondary market and by theft, and “[the] criminal handgun market is overwhelmingly dominated by informal transactions and theft as mechanisms of supply.” - The Armed Criminal in America: A Survey of Incarcerated Felons , James D. Wright, Peter H. Rossi, National Institute of Justice (U.S.), 1985

The majority of handguns in the possession of criminals are stolen, and not necessarily by the criminals in question. - Targeting Guns: Firearms and Their Control, Gary Kleck, Aldine de Gruyter, 1997

Over 100,000 firearms are stolen in burglaries every year, and most of them likely enter the criminal market (i.e., are sold or traded to criminals). - Victimization During Household Burglary, Bureau of Justice Statistics, September 2010

Good luck!

So if guns are stolen from gun owners, aren't gun owners arming criminals? Sounds like gun ownership does more damage than good.

Hardly. You really don't think to deeply into this do you? For one thing, you're overlooking the millions of incidents where a good guy with a firearm defends himself. You're also overlooking the overwhelming evidence in other countries where banning civilian gun ownership does not result in less violent crime or a decreasing murder rate.

You're gonna have to think beyond soundbites here.

NRA says you need a gun to protect your stuff, but owners get their guns stolen? Ouch.

Riiight. Are firearm owners ALWAYS home with their weapons?

See how foolish you look?

 

[Spoonman]

I have proven it happens.

By citing two examples out of hundreds of thousands of examples of criminals using firearms in the commission of their crime.

Thanks for making my point!



You keep using this word. I do not think you know what it means.

How many examples you need?

I don't need examples. I need actual evidence. Real statistics. You know, proof.

And further, that evidence will have to counter the OVERWHELMING evidence that criminals do not obtain firearms legally in one state and them take them to another, but that they obtain them illegally in the state in which they commit their crime. For example:

Five out of six gun-possessing felons obtained handguns from the secondary market and by theft, and “[the] criminal handgun market is overwhelmingly dominated by informal transactions and theft as mechanisms of supply.” - The Armed Criminal in America: A Survey of Incarcerated Felons , James D. Wright, Peter H. Rossi, National Institute of Justice (U.S.), 1985

The majority of handguns in the possession of criminals are stolen, and not necessarily by the criminals in question. - Targeting Guns: Firearms and Their Control, Gary Kleck, Aldine de Gruyter, 1997

Over 100,000 firearms are stolen in burglaries every year, and most of them likely enter the criminal market (i.e., are sold or traded to criminals). - Victimization During Household Burglary, Bureau of Justice Statistics, September 2010

Good luck!

So if guns are stolen from gun owners, aren't gun owners arming criminals? Sounds like gun ownership does more damage than good. NRA says you need a gun to protect your stuff, but owners get their guns stolen? Ouch.

you tell us citizens don't need guns because the police will protect us. why aren't the police keeping criminlas from stealing guns?

Why are liberal newsparers printing the names and addresses of gun owners making it easier for criminals to target?

Why would liberals propose a national registry data base which we all know will be hacked like every other government site and expose gun owners even further?

 

[eflatminor]

By citing two examples out of hundreds of thousands of examples of criminals using firearms in the commission of their crime.

Thanks for making my point!



You keep using this word. I do not think you know what it means.



I don't need examples. I need actual evidence. Real statistics. You know, proof.

And further, that evidence will have to counter the OVERWHELMING evidence that criminals do not obtain firearms legally in one state and them take them to another, but that they obtain them illegally in the state in which they commit their crime. For example:

Five out of six gun-possessing felons obtained handguns from the secondary market and by theft, and “[the] criminal handgun market is overwhelmingly dominated by informal transactions and theft as mechanisms of supply.” - The Armed Criminal in America: A Survey of Incarcerated Felons , James D. Wright, Peter H. Rossi, National Institute of Justice (U.S.), 1985

The majority of handguns in the possession of criminals are stolen, and not necessarily by the criminals in question. - Targeting Guns: Firearms and Their Control, Gary Kleck, Aldine de Gruyter, 1997

Over 100,000 firearms are stolen in burglaries every year, and most of them likely enter the criminal market (i.e., are sold or traded to criminals). - Victimization During Household Burglary, Bureau of Justice Statistics, September 2010

Good luck!

So if guns are stolen from gun owners, aren't gun owners arming criminals? Sounds like gun ownership does more damage than good. NRA says you need a gun to protect your stuff, but owners get their guns stolen? Ouch.

you tell us citizens don't need guns because the police will protect us. why aren't the police keeping criminlas from stealing guns?

Why are liberal newsparers printing the names and addresses of gun owners making it easier for criminals to target?

Why would liberals propose a national registry data base which we all know will be hacked like every other government site and expose gun owners even further?

Stop that. There'll be no logic and reason in this debate!!!

 

[Spoonman]

I have proven it happens.

By citing two examples out of hundreds of thousands of examples of criminals using firearms in the commission of their crime.

Thanks for making my point!



You keep using this word. I do not think you know what it means.

How many examples you need?

I don't need examples. I need actual evidence. Real statistics. You know, proof.

And further, that evidence will have to counter the OVERWHELMING evidence that criminals do not obtain firearms legally in one state and them take them to another, but that they obtain them illegally in the state in which they commit their crime. For example:

Five out of six gun-possessing felons obtained handguns from the secondary market and by theft, and “[the] criminal handgun market is overwhelmingly dominated by informal transactions and theft as mechanisms of supply.” - The Armed Criminal in America: A Survey of Incarcerated Felons , James D. Wright, Peter H. Rossi, National Institute of Justice (U.S.), 1985

The majority of handguns in the possession of criminals are stolen, and not necessarily by the criminals in question. - Targeting Guns: Firearms and Their Control, Gary Kleck, Aldine de Gruyter, 1997

Over 100,000 firearms are stolen in burglaries every year, and most of them likely enter the criminal market (i.e., are sold or traded to criminals). - Victimization During Household Burglary, Bureau of Justice Statistics, September 2010

Good luck!

So if guns are stolen from gun owners, aren't gun owners arming criminals? Sounds like gun ownership does more damage than good. NRA says you need a gun to protect your stuff, but owners get their guns stolen? Ouch.

if liberals didn't place restrictive gun laws on us making it impossible to carry our weapons as the 2nd amendment intended, gun owners wouldn't spend so much time separated from there guns now would we?

Stolen guns are the fault of liberals and their restrictive laws

 

[Brain357]

By citing two examples out of hundreds of thousands of examples of criminals using firearms in the commission of their crime.

Thanks for making my point!



You keep using this word. I do not think you know what it means.



I don't need examples. I need actual evidence. Real statistics. You know, proof.

And further, that evidence will have to counter the OVERWHELMING evidence that criminals do not obtain firearms legally in one state and them take them to another, but that they obtain them illegally in the state in which they commit their crime. For example:

Five out of six gun-possessing felons obtained handguns from the secondary market and by theft, and “[the] criminal handgun market is overwhelmingly dominated by informal transactions and theft as mechanisms of supply.” - The Armed Criminal in America: A Survey of Incarcerated Felons , James D. Wright, Peter H. Rossi, National Institute of Justice (U.S.), 1985

The majority of handguns in the possession of criminals are stolen, and not necessarily by the criminals in question. - Targeting Guns: Firearms and Their Control, Gary Kleck, Aldine de Gruyter, 1997

Over 100,000 firearms are stolen in burglaries every year, and most of them likely enter the criminal market (i.e., are sold or traded to criminals). - Victimization During Household Burglary, Bureau of Justice Statistics, September 2010

Good luck!

So if guns are stolen from gun owners, aren't gun owners arming criminals? Sounds like gun ownership does more damage than good.

Hardly. You really don't think to deeply into this do you? For one thing, you're overlooking the millions of incidents where a good guy with a firearm defends himself. You're also overlooking the overwhelming evidence in other countries where banning civilian gun ownership does not result in less violent crime or a decreasing murder rate.

You're gonna have to think beyond soundbites here.

NRA says you need a gun to protect your stuff, but owners get their guns stolen? Ouch.

Riiight. Are firearm owners ALWAYS home with their weapons?

See how foolish you look?

Well the more believable stats I've seen are about 100,000 defenses per year. And last I checked there were like 232,000 guns stolen per year. Not a good ratio. How many of those defenders needed a gun because some other gun owner armed the criminal?

Btw, I'm not for banning guns. I want universal background checks, registration, and magazine capacity limits.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

Hey who made those workers at FedEx continue to work there?

no one

These workers, if in fear for their lives or safety

why would they be

fedex promised their safety

Really? Where did you get that information? Was it a written promise? Or do you think it was an implied promise? Or are you just making shit up again?

OSHA requires that the employer provide a safe workplace. And OSHA has been trying to address workplace violence since 2000 or 2001.

OSHA also requires written procedures for preventing workplace violence and handling it if it happens.

The safety requirement goes right out the window if everyone is packin' heat.

These paranoid nutters are putting all of us at risk.

 

[WinterBorn]

But he works there and would be fully aware of security. He'd either get a pistol or saw off his shotgun and put it in a bag. The navy yard shooter snuck his gun in a bag.

He would also be aware of this secure location. So he'd know exactly where everyone was going. That seems less safe.

So you are asking me to give you an action plan that guarantees that no employees will be harmed, ever? Cannot be done in a free society.

I could list people who were killed in their workplace, in a single event, without the killer ever entering the building.

But the list of the 168 people who died when Timothy McVeigh's homemade bomb went off would take a lot of space. I think you still get the point.


As for the employee knowing where everyone went, that is not necessarily true. The one that I designed in 2001 (for the location where I was based) did not tell everyone where to go. They were told by department.

I'm looking for ideas that aren't easy to go around. I appreciate you have ideas, but just don't think they would make a difference. I think you'd need armed guards at the gate and a metal detector to be effective. Don't see that as practical. And you couldn't do that at a walmart.

The ideas would not completely remove all potential death in the event a determined, and suicidal, person decides to kill people. The best step would be to work on better prevention, as in work place mediation for problems ect.

And since there is virtually no way to guarantee 100% safety, the best ideas are those that limit the loss of life.

Considering how easy it is to make a bomb or lethal gas, there pretty much can be no guarantee of safety. Clorox and Windex can be combined to make chlorine gas. That has the potential to kill more people than died in the shooting in Kennesaw.

 

[Spoonman]

So if guns are stolen from gun owners, aren't gun owners arming criminals? Sounds like gun ownership does more damage than good.

Hardly. You really don't think to deeply into this do you? For one thing, you're overlooking the millions of incidents where a good guy with a firearm defends himself. You're also overlooking the overwhelming evidence in other countries where banning civilian gun ownership does not result in less violent crime or a decreasing murder rate.

You're gonna have to think beyond soundbites here.

NRA says you need a gun to protect your stuff, but owners get their guns stolen? Ouch.

Riiight. Are firearm owners ALWAYS home with their weapons?

See how foolish you look?

Well the more believable stats I've seen are about 100,000 defenses per year. And last I checked there were like 232,000 guns stolen per year. Not a good ratio. How many of those defenders needed a gun because some other gun owner armed the criminal?

Btw, I'm not for banning guns. I want universal background checks, registration, and magazine capacity limits.

actuallly you should read the last report obama commisioned that said there were about 1,500,000 defenses per year. vs 11,000 deaths. here's another little misleading fact in that 11,000 death number. if someone kills someone breaking into their house with a gun, the intruder is still listed in that 11,000 death statistic.

 

[WinterBorn]

Really? Where did you get that information? Was it a written promise? Or do you think it was an implied promise? Or are you just making shit up again?

OSHA requires that the employer provide a safe workplace. And OSHA has been trying to address workplace violence since 2000 or 2001.

OSHA also requires written procedures for preventing workplace violence and handling it if it happens.

The safety requirement goes right out the window if everyone is packin' heat.

These paranoid nutters are putting all of us at risk.

Or one of those "nutters" could end the rampage sooner, thereby saving lives.

 

[martybegan]

Really? Where did you get that information? Was it a written promise? Or do you think it was an implied promise? Or are you just making shit up again?

OSHA requires that the employer provide a safe workplace. And OSHA has been trying to address workplace violence since 2000 or 2001.

OSHA also requires written procedures for preventing workplace violence and handling it if it happens.

The safety requirement goes right out the window if everyone is packin' heat.

These paranoid nutters are putting all of us at risk.

So police officers are constantly shooting each other, all the time?

 

[Brain357]

So you are asking me to give you an action plan that guarantees that no employees will be harmed, ever? Cannot be done in a free society.

I could list people who were killed in their workplace, in a single event, without the killer ever entering the building.

But the list of the 168 people who died when Timothy McVeigh's homemade bomb went off would take a lot of space. I think you still get the point.


As for the employee knowing where everyone went, that is not necessarily true. The one that I designed in 2001 (for the location where I was based) did not tell everyone where to go. They were told by department.

I'm looking for ideas that aren't easy to go around. I appreciate you have ideas, but just don't think they would make a difference. I think you'd need armed guards at the gate and a metal detector to be effective. Don't see that as practical. And you couldn't do that at a walmart.

The ideas would not completely remove all potential death in the event a determined, and suicidal, person decides to kill people. The best step would be to work on better prevention, as in work place mediation for problems ect.

And since there is virtually no way to guarantee 100% safety, the best ideas are those that limit the loss of life.

Considering how easy it is to make a bomb or lethal gas, there pretty much can be no guarantee of safety. Clorox and Windex can be combined to make chlorine gas. That has the potential to kill more people than died in the shooting in Kennesaw.

I agree with you. This is why I believe in magazine cap limits. These shooters are often stopped at reload.

 

[eflatminor]

So if guns are stolen from gun owners, aren't gun owners arming criminals? Sounds like gun ownership does more damage than good.

Hardly. You really don't think to deeply into this do you? For one thing, you're overlooking the millions of incidents where a good guy with a firearm defends himself. You're also overlooking the overwhelming evidence in other countries where banning civilian gun ownership does not result in less violent crime or a decreasing murder rate.

You're gonna have to think beyond soundbites here.

NRA says you need a gun to protect your stuff, but owners get their guns stolen? Ouch.

Riiight. Are firearm owners ALWAYS home with their weapons?

See how foolish you look?

Well the more believable stats I've seen are about 100,000 defenses per year. And last I checked there were like 232,000 guns stolen per year. Not a good ratio. How many of those defenders needed a gun because some other gun owner armed the criminal?

What YOU'VE seen, eh? Yea, pass. The actual evidence points to millions of occurrences each year. But hey, I'm sure you know better...

Btw, I'm not for banning guns. I want universal background checks, registration, and magazine capacity limits

And you expect that to stop thugs and crazies from using firearms?

California has had such restrictions for DECADES. How's that working out for them???

 

[Spoonman]

So if guns are stolen from gun owners, aren't gun owners arming criminals? Sounds like gun ownership does more damage than good.

Hardly. You really don't think to deeply into this do you? For one thing, you're overlooking the millions of incidents where a good guy with a firearm defends himself. You're also overlooking the overwhelming evidence in other countries where banning civilian gun ownership does not result in less violent crime or a decreasing murder rate.

You're gonna have to think beyond soundbites here.

NRA says you need a gun to protect your stuff, but owners get their guns stolen? Ouch.

Riiight. Are firearm owners ALWAYS home with their weapons?

See how foolish you look?

Well the more believable stats I've seen are about 100,000 defenses per year. And last I checked there were like 232,000 guns stolen per year. Not a good ratio. How many of those defenders needed a gun because some other gun owner armed the criminal?

Btw, I'm not for banning guns. I want universal background checks, registration, and magazine capacity limits.

oh and BTW, the NRA, who you continue to bash has been pushing for safe storga legislaation as a way to prevent gun theft for years. they have even conducted studies that show states that do have safe storage legiislation report like 26% less gun thefts on average. Why don't you gun grabbing morons ever consider sensible legislation as recommended by the most significant resource on guns? instead you continue to attack people rights and pass legislation that has absolutely no benefit

 

[eflatminor]

I'm looking for ideas that aren't easy to go around. I appreciate you have ideas, but just don't think they would make a difference. I think you'd need armed guards at the gate and a metal detector to be effective. Don't see that as practical. And you couldn't do that at a walmart.

The ideas would not completely remove all potential death in the event a determined, and suicidal, person decides to kill people. The best step would be to work on better prevention, as in work place mediation for problems ect.

And since there is virtually no way to guarantee 100% safety, the best ideas are those that limit the loss of life.

Considering how easy it is to make a bomb or lethal gas, there pretty much can be no guarantee of safety. Clorox and Windex can be combined to make chlorine gas. That has the potential to kill more people than died in the shooting in Kennesaw.

I agree with you. This is why I believe in magazine cap limits. These shooters are often stopped at reload.

And what exactly makes you think these "shooters" will obey your magazine limit law?

You realize they're nothing but sheet metal and a spring, right? You realize there are MILLIONS of high capacity magazines already in existence, right?

What EXACTLY do you hope to accomplish by limiting magazine size other than to put law abiding citizens at a tactical disadvantage against the thugs and crazies that couldn't give two shits about your rules???