[POLL] - Liberals, how much is a "fair share?" - Taxes

[PMZ]

Once more I'll answer, again numbered. You'll note that these are the same answers provided above.

1) Families used to live together.. I like that better than paying parents to die alone. Folks that run out of money and can't / don't want to work should turn to family. Such as retiring to live with their kids.

2) Folks should be given their money back, that they paid into SS and Medicare, so they can invest and spend their money as they wish. For example, give everyone in the USA a cash check to a 401k in payment for every dollar that was paid into SS minus every dollar that was paid to them directly. (just to add, in case they run out of money, see number (1) above, folks can get a job to earn money, and can seek welfare from charities.)

Why would you assume that the people paying for their parents, and the charities that you seem to love to live off, would be any cheaper than SS and Medicare?

A. I did not claim it would be cheaper. Why would I want my parents to live a spartan life in retirement?

B. Retirement is not cheap. People need and deserve more income in retirement than they get from the current system of SS / Medicare, which is ridiculous considering that the system broke and insufficient. Why? Because they spent it on shovel ready government fat, instead of investing it for profit. Governments / Politicians are the last people we should trust with our money.

Both you and your parents are perfectly free to supplement their SS and Medicare as much as you'd like. The object of those programs are to insure that people who work have saved enough of their earnings when they worked to take care of their minimal needs when they can't.

Both SS and Medicare are required to invest their surplus in US Treasuries, generally considered the safest investment in the world. This crap that the government has stolen the surplus is merely the work of cheap politicians and their ignorant following.

 

[PMZ]

What if they don't have kids, or their kids don;t want to live with them?

Well if they never had kids then they should have more money to spend on themselves, if every member of their family, brothers, sisters, parents, first cousins, children alike, all died they should get insurance.

If their family doesn't want them to live with them... Why should I pay for their desire to live independently? That's their choice.

That said, if folks want money they can get a job to earn money. They can also seek welfare from charities.

And what do you do with those of them who outlive their money?

Why should I pay the federal government to do anything for my parents and/or for my neighbor's parents, and/or for some elderly that have no family to fall back on? Is there some sort of understood law that we as a nation must run all charities and families out of business and convert them into federal programs? We should break the piggy bank of all citizens so our federal government can screw up our charities and bankrupt our families? We should tithe to our government and worship our government so it will take care of us with SS checks in our old age? WTF?

For some reason you seem to be anxious to have lots of old people on the streets, begging for survival. I have seen that elsewhere and it's the result of the most pathetic governments and economies in the world. If you want to relocate to those poor countries to save money, feel free. What you are not going to do is to drag America into that gutter.

 

[RKMBrown]

Why would you assume that the people paying for their parents, and the charities that you seem to love to live off, would be any cheaper than SS and Medicare?

A. I did not claim it would be cheaper. Why would I want my parents to live a spartan life in retirement?

B. Retirement is not cheap. People need and deserve more income in retirement than they get from the current system of SS / Medicare, which is ridiculous considering that the system broke and insufficient. Why? Because they spent it on shovel ready government fat, instead of investing it for profit. Governments / Politicians are the last people we should trust with our money.

Both you and your parents are perfectly free to supplement their SS and Medicare as much as you'd like. The object of those programs are to insure that people who work have saved enough of their earnings when they worked to take care of their minimal needs when they can't.

Both SS and Medicare are required to invest their surplus in US Treasuries, generally considered the safest investment in the world. This crap that the government has stolen the surplus is merely the work of cheap politicians and their ignorant following.

>>> Both you and your parents are perfectly free to supplement their SS and Medicare as much as you'd like. The object of those programs are to insure that people who work have saved enough of their earnings when they worked to take care of their minimal needs when they can't.

Your not listening. I want my money back, all of it. I don't submit to your mandatory retirement plan Soon many like me will begin to fight back, maybe you'll win the fight, maybe you'll be wishing you stood up to the pyramid scheme before your grandchildren did.

>>> Both SS and Medicare are required to invest their surplus in US Treasuries, generally considered the safest investment in the world. This crap that the government has stolen the surplus is merely the work of cheap politicians and their ignorant following.

ROFL T-Bills? ROFL The money is gone, it is spent. All you have to show for it is 3t in IOUs that are being paid for by stealing 15% of your grandchildren's paychecks. If you loose the paycheck theft from your grandchildren there is no money. Nothing but mountains of promises. Soon they will be forced to increase the 15% to a higher number and probably to move the earliest retirement date again as they did before. They expanded it to cover health care for the poor (chips) and other welfare programs and have broken the piggy bank trying hand over fist to spend the money. US treasuries ROFL that's a joke. What interest does it pay zero or is that some negative number now when you compare it to inflation?

Even if you dream up the lie the 3t is real money, here's the real joke. 3trillion is nothing, a drop in the bucket, gonna be spent on Obuma Care.

But hey, cross your fingers you might die before your grand kids are left holding the bag of the pyramid scheme that you got to live off.

 

[RKMBrown]

What if they don't have kids, or their kids don;t want to live with them?

Well if they never had kids then they should have more money to spend on themselves, if every member of their family, brothers, sisters, parents, first cousins, children alike, all died they should get insurance.

If their family doesn't want them to live with them... Why should I pay for their desire to live independently? That's their choice.

That said, if folks want money they can get a job to earn money. They can also seek welfare from charities.

And what do you do with those of them who outlive their money?

Why should I pay the federal government to do anything for my parents and/or for my neighbor's parents, and/or for some elderly that have no family to fall back on? Is there some sort of understood law that we as a nation must run all charities and families out of business and convert them into federal programs? We should break the piggy bank of all citizens so our federal government can screw up our charities and bankrupt our families? We should tithe to our government and worship our government so it will take care of us with SS checks in our old age? WTF?

For some reason you seem to be anxious to have lots of old people on the streets, begging for survival. I have seen that elsewhere and it's the result of the most pathetic governments and economies in the world. If you want to relocate to those poor countries to save money, feel free. What you are not going to do is to drag America into that gutter.

You have a serious reading comprehension problem. No where in any of my statements have I put anyone on any street. I think you are a sick sad old man.

Just because people like Obama won't take their brother or Aunt in, does not mean the rest of us are like that to our families. You are projecting for yourself I suppose. Yeah I can imagine if no one in your family loves ya, that you would be concerned about being left by your family to be destitute. If you do not participate in local charities, yeah then I guess I could see how people like you would rather force your neighbors to tithe to your god, govco.

Look I want to take care of my family. You are not a part of my family. Yet you feel that you deserve to walk into my house and take the food out of my children's and parents mouths by force so that you can receive a SS check. People like you are no better than common criminals hiding behind government regulations to accomplish your desire for theft.

 

[PMZ]

A. I did not claim it would be cheaper. Why would I want my parents to live a spartan life in retirement?

B. Retirement is not cheap. People need and deserve more income in retirement than they get from the current system of SS / Medicare, which is ridiculous considering that the system broke and insufficient. Why? Because they spent it on shovel ready government fat, instead of investing it for profit. Governments / Politicians are the last people we should trust with our money.

Both you and your parents are perfectly free to supplement their SS and Medicare as much as you'd like. The object of those programs are to insure that people who work have saved enough of their earnings when they worked to take care of their minimal needs when they can't.

Both SS and Medicare are required to invest their surplus in US Treasuries, generally considered the safest investment in the world. This crap that the government has stolen the surplus is merely the work of cheap politicians and their ignorant following.

>>> Both you and your parents are perfectly free to supplement their SS and Medicare as much as you'd like. The object of those programs are to insure that people who work have saved enough of their earnings when they worked to take care of their minimal needs when they can't.

Your not listening. I want my money back, all of it. I don't submit to your mandatory retirement plan Soon many like me will begin to fight back, maybe you'll win the fight, maybe you'll be wishing you stood up to the pyramid scheme before your grandchildren did.

>>> Both SS and Medicare are required to invest their surplus in US Treasuries, generally considered the safest investment in the world. This crap that the government has stolen the surplus is merely the work of cheap politicians and their ignorant following.

ROFL T-Bills? ROFL The money is gone, it is spent. All you have to show for it is 3t in IOUs that are being paid for by stealing 15% of your grandchildren's paychecks. If you loose the paycheck theft from your grandchildren there is no money. Nothing but mountains of promises. Soon they will be forced to increase the 15% to a higher number and probably to move the earliest retirement date again as they did before. They expanded it to cover health care for the poor (chips) and other welfare programs and have broken the piggy bank trying hand over fist to spend the money. US treasuries ROFL that's a joke. What interest does it pay zero or is that some negative number now when you compare it to inflation?

Even if you dream up the lie the 3t is real money, here's the real joke. 3trillion is nothing, a drop in the bucket, gonna be spent on Obuma Care.

But hey, cross your fingers you might die before your grand kids are left holding the bag of the pyramid scheme that you got to live off.

You make it sound like what you want matters to anybody but you. I get a big kick out of your graph with an axis of % GDP. A completely irrelevant measure.

We're a democracy. The vast majority of we, the people, think that SS and Medicare are smart, well run, necessary benefits of government.

You don't. You loose.

It sounds like you are an experienced loser.

 

[Foxfyre]

Well if they never had kids then they should have more money to spend on themselves, if every member of their family, brothers, sisters, parents, first cousins, children alike, all died they should get insurance.

If their family doesn't want them to live with them... Why should I pay for their desire to live independently? That's their choice.

That said, if folks want money they can get a job to earn money. They can also seek welfare from charities.


Why should I pay the federal government to do anything for my parents and/or for my neighbor's parents, and/or for some elderly that have no family to fall back on? Is there some sort of understood law that we as a nation must run all charities and families out of business and convert them into federal programs? We should break the piggy bank of all citizens so our federal government can screw up our charities and bankrupt our families? We should tithe to our government and worship our government so it will take care of us with SS checks in our old age? WTF?

For some reason you seem to be anxious to have lots of old people on the streets, begging for survival. I have seen that elsewhere and it's the result of the most pathetic governments and economies in the world. If you want to relocate to those poor countries to save money, feel free. What you are not going to do is to drag America into that gutter.

You have a serious reading comprehension problem. No where in any of my statements have I put anyone on any street. I think you are a sick sad old man.

Just because people like Obama won't take their brother or Aunt in, does not mean the rest of us are like that to our families. You are projecting for yourself I suppose. Yeah I can imagine if no one in your family loves ya, that you would be concerned about being left by your family to be destitute. If you do not participate in local charities, yeah then I guess I could see how people like you would rather force your neighbors to tithe to your god, govco.

Look I want to take care of my family. You are not a part of my family. Yet you feel that you deserve to walk into my house and take the food out of my children's and parents mouths by force so that you can receive a SS check. People like you are no better than common criminals hiding behind government regulations to accomplish your desire for theft.

That is exactly what it is when those have worked for it think they are entitled to what others own or earn. And our government seems to embrace that concept more and more with each passing year. SS was well intended and served what it was intended to do--supplement in a very modest way the retirement income for the elderly. But instead of focusing on those who were truly destitute and had nobody to turn to, they made it a mandatory entitlement for everybody--the first of many our country would eventually have.

And rather than keep it a small, manageable, modest program never intended to support anybody, they eventually turned it into a massive government social welfare program. Go into any social security office in the country and you'll see a lot more able bodied young people there than you will see old folks who need their pensions supplemented.

But then. . . .

 

[PMZ]

For some reason you seem to be anxious to have lots of old people on the streets, begging for survival. I have seen that elsewhere and it's the result of the most pathetic governments and economies in the world. If you want to relocate to those poor countries to save money, feel free. What you are not going to do is to drag America into that gutter.

You have a serious reading comprehension problem. No where in any of my statements have I put anyone on any street. I think you are a sick sad old man.

Just because people like Obama won't take their brother or Aunt in, does not mean the rest of us are like that to our families. You are projecting for yourself I suppose. Yeah I can imagine if no one in your family loves ya, that you would be concerned about being left by your family to be destitute. If you do not participate in local charities, yeah then I guess I could see how people like you would rather force your neighbors to tithe to your god, govco.

Look I want to take care of my family. You are not a part of my family. Yet you feel that you deserve to walk into my house and take the food out of my children's and parents mouths by force so that you can receive a SS check. People like you are no better than common criminals hiding behind government regulations to accomplish your desire for theft.

That is exactly what it is when those have worked for it think they are entitled to what others own or earn. And our government seems to embrace that concept more and more with each passing year. SS was well intended and served what it was intended to do--supplement in a very modest way the retirement income for the elderly. But instead of focusing on those who were truly destitute and had nobody to turn to, they made it a mandatory entitlement for everybody--the first of many our country would eventually have.

And rather than keep it a small, manageable, modest program never intended to support anybody, they eventually turned it into a massive government social welfare program. Go into any social security office in the country and you'll see a lot more able bodied young people there than you will see old folks who need their pensions supplemented.

But then. . . .

Why would you label a program of people saving for retirement massive government social welfare?

 

[Polk]

Abolish the utterly retarded tax system we have now, 20% national sales tax with no loopholes, boom we're done.

A sales taxes with no deductions would, even under the most favorable estimates, have to be north of 30% to be revenue neutral.

 

[RKMBrown]

Why would you label a program of people saving for retirement massive government social welfare?

SS is not a savings system in which you put a dollar in and receive a dollar out plus interest in retirement.

Nay, SS is a system where you are forced by the government to put in ten dollars and are then lucky if you get to receive one dollar back.

The people that most benefit from SS are the ones that put the least number of dollars in, and / or the ones that get lucky enough to outlive the averages.

The luckiest generations are each previous generation, because each successive generation has had to put in twice the amount of the previous generation by % of their income.

Retired people are not the only ones drawing on SS money. SS money is used to fund many other programs.

If you were to try to do a retirement system like SS in the private world our government would arrest you for grand theft. Pyramid schemes like SS are illegal.

 

[RKMBrown]

Both you and your parents are perfectly free to supplement their SS and Medicare as much as you'd like. The object of those programs are to insure that people who work have saved enough of their earnings when they worked to take care of their minimal needs when they can't.

Both SS and Medicare are required to invest their surplus in US Treasuries, generally considered the safest investment in the world. This crap that the government has stolen the surplus is merely the work of cheap politicians and their ignorant following.

>>> Both you and your parents are perfectly free to supplement their SS and Medicare as much as you'd like. The object of those programs are to insure that people who work have saved enough of their earnings when they worked to take care of their minimal needs when they can't.

Your not listening. I want my money back, all of it. I don't submit to your mandatory retirement plan Soon many like me will begin to fight back, maybe you'll win the fight, maybe you'll be wishing you stood up to the pyramid scheme before your grandchildren did.

>>> Both SS and Medicare are required to invest their surplus in US Treasuries, generally considered the safest investment in the world. This crap that the government has stolen the surplus is merely the work of cheap politicians and their ignorant following.

ROFL T-Bills? ROFL The money is gone, it is spent. All you have to show for it is 3t in IOUs that are being paid for by stealing 15% of your grandchildren's paychecks. If you loose the paycheck theft from your grandchildren there is no money. Nothing but mountains of promises. Soon they will be forced to increase the 15% to a higher number and probably to move the earliest retirement date again as they did before. They expanded it to cover health care for the poor (chips) and other welfare programs and have broken the piggy bank trying hand over fist to spend the money. US treasuries ROFL that's a joke. What interest does it pay zero or is that some negative number now when you compare it to inflation?

Even if you dream up the lie the 3t is real money, here's the real joke. 3trillion is nothing, a drop in the bucket, gonna be spent on Obuma Care.

But hey, cross your fingers you might die before your grand kids are left holding the bag of the pyramid scheme that you got to live off.

You make it sound like what you want matters to anybody but you. I get a big kick out of your graph with an axis of % GDP. A completely irrelevant measure.

We're a democracy. The vast majority of we, the people, think that SS and Medicare are smart, well run, necessary benefits of government.

You don't. You loose.

It sounds like you are an experienced loser.

Showing revenue of a product that is drawn from GDP, is irrelevant when shown in relation to GDP? Huh?

Better? And yes, I'm experienced with loosing my income to your henchmen.

 

[PMZ]

Why would you label a program of people saving for retirement massive government social welfare?

SS is not a savings system in which you put a dollar in and receive a dollar out plus interest in retirement.

Nay, SS is a system where you are forced by the government to put in ten dollars and are then lucky if you get to receive one dollar back.

The people that most benefit from SS are the ones that put the least number of dollars in, and / or the ones that get lucky enough to outlive the averages.

The luckiest generations are each previous generation, because each successive generation has had to put in twice the amount of the previous generation by % of their income.

Retired people are not the only ones drawing on SS money. SS money is used to fund many other programs.

If you were to try to do a retirement system like SS in the private world our government would arrest you for grand theft. Pyramid schemes like SS are illegal.

SS is an annuity. A combination of an investment account and life insurance. A defined benefit savings account. Self funded by our government. A great example of government of, by and for the people.

Who would make the same deal with a private company? Trust us! Give us money while you're working and if we haven't spent it all on executive bonuses we'll give you some back.

If SS was as you say, "a system where you are forced by the government to put in ten dollars and are then lucky if you get to receive one dollar back", it would be great for taxpayers. But it's not.

Again, though, it's a free market out there. If you don't like the deal from our government, find a better deal.

 

[PMZ]

>>> Both you and your parents are perfectly free to supplement their SS and Medicare as much as you'd like. The object of those programs are to insure that people who work have saved enough of their earnings when they worked to take care of their minimal needs when they can't.

Your not listening. I want my money back, all of it. I don't submit to your mandatory retirement plan Soon many like me will begin to fight back, maybe you'll win the fight, maybe you'll be wishing you stood up to the pyramid scheme before your grandchildren did.

>>> Both SS and Medicare are required to invest their surplus in US Treasuries, generally considered the safest investment in the world. This crap that the government has stolen the surplus is merely the work of cheap politicians and their ignorant following.

ROFL T-Bills? ROFL The money is gone, it is spent. All you have to show for it is 3t in IOUs that are being paid for by stealing 15% of your grandchildren's paychecks. If you loose the paycheck theft from your grandchildren there is no money. Nothing but mountains of promises. Soon they will be forced to increase the 15% to a higher number and probably to move the earliest retirement date again as they did before. They expanded it to cover health care for the poor (chips) and other welfare programs and have broken the piggy bank trying hand over fist to spend the money. US treasuries ROFL that's a joke. What interest does it pay zero or is that some negative number now when you compare it to inflation?

Even if you dream up the lie the 3t is real money, here's the real joke. 3trillion is nothing, a drop in the bucket, gonna be spent on Obuma Care.

But hey, cross your fingers you might die before your grand kids are left holding the bag of the pyramid scheme that you got to live off.

You make it sound like what you want matters to anybody but you. I get a big kick out of your graph with an axis of % GDP. A completely irrelevant measure.

We're a democracy. The vast majority of we, the people, think that SS and Medicare are smart, well run, necessary benefits of government.

You don't. You loose.

It sounds like you are an experienced loser.

Showing revenue of a product that is drawn from GDP, is irrelevant when shown in relation to GDP? Huh?

Better? And yes, I'm experienced with loosing my income to your henchmen.

Apparently you don't believe in government of, for, and by, the people. Your choice. I think you'd better start looking for a country that would elect you Absolute Ruler. What you can't choose is to be Absolute Ruler of America. The last one with that job was King George. We threw him out. Then the Confederacy tried. We defeated them. Then Hitler, Muscle-ini and Hirohito tried. Same result.

Of course media made extreme conservatives were the last pretenders to America's throne. They've been largely evicted too.

We have freedom that comes from democracy, and we aren't likely to give that away to America's whiners. We like workers.

 

[RKMBrown]

We have freedom that comes from democracy, and we aren't likely to give that away to America's whiners. We like workers.

Your definition of freedom, is my definition of slavery. Of course you like workers, slave masters like their slaves to work real hard don't they?

Whiners? ROFL your the one shaking in your boots that someone's gonna turn off your money spigot. Sucking the blood of your grandchildren by force of the mob, yeah that's "democracy."

 

[thereisnospoon]

Abolish the utterly retarded tax system we have now, 20% national sales tax with no loopholes, boom we're done.

A sales taxes with no deductions would, even under the most favorable estimates, have to be north of 30% to be revenue neutral.

Your came from?

 

[kaz]

Abolish the utterly retarded tax system we have now, 20% national sales tax with no loopholes, boom we're done.

A sales taxes with no deductions would, even under the most favorable estimates, have to be north of 30% to be revenue neutral.

Your came from?

It's irrelevant anyway because those taxes are already baked into the price of the product. If the actual amount is 30%, it's just an admission that taxes are higher than the left admit. Whatever the rate is, if it's revenue neutral, the price of products won't go up.

And they will go down over time as waste and the infrastructure to collect all the different taxes, counter incentives, disincentives and the rest of the monstrous infrastructure to tax the same money over and over are dismantled.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Actually, no, I'm not dumb. There is a chance that you are not either. Just misinformed, and therefore ignorant. Of course, that's your choice.

You didn't answer my question. If not for SS and Medicare, more people would outlive their money. Fact. What would you do with them. Shoot them?

What does this post mean? are you suggesting Americans are to stupid to invest their money with out being forced to pay into S.S.? just a question how come I didnt get my wifes contribution into S.S. when she died? all I got was $250 bucks, and a thank you for playing that game.

Obviously your joke doesn't have anything to do with the difference between republicans and democrats. It has to do with what you've fallen for. The difference as described by 24/7/365 republican media campaign advertising. Have you also fallen for the Mercedes ads? The Infomercials? The Viagra ads?

Typical. You libs are faithless people. You see the word 'investment' and you spontaneously combust.
You people look to government to take care of you. Rubbish.

 

[thereisnospoon]

That won't work as there isn't enough left of those funds to support those who are already near or at retirement age. They have been severely depleted by inflation over the years. To be just, the government would have to return every dollar paid in but adjust it for inflation plus a reasonable return had the citizen had that money to save and draw interest or invest.

We do need to begin now to slowly and carefully privatize all retirement accounts, including those held by employers to ensure that there won't be another Enron or Madoff scandal. And we have to accept that if people fail to save for their old age, it will be the responsibility of family and/or private charities to take care of them. That sounds cruel and harsh, but it really isn't. We either have freedom and personal responsibility for our choices or we give government power to assign us the rights we will have. There is nothing in between those two options.

You mean they cant just "print" as much money as they want? Why not? What would stop them from having the fed write us all checks? They do it all the time just like the other 17T they can just borrow more. Or the 40+Trillion in checks they wrote to the banking cartel to "save" the planet from the recession.

"the 40+Trillion in checks they wrote to the banking cartel"

It would be good to post some evidence of this.

Most of which YOUR SIDE supports.
Stimulus. All three QE's. More stimulus. More taxes. More government intrusion.
You people adore this stuff.
You despise the concept of the individual.
Never mind the so called banking cartels. You look to government to do everything for you. Then you question the methods by which the government does your bidding.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Once more, what do you do with the people who outlive their money?

The same thing you do with people who spend all their money at any stage of life. If your neighbor gambles away all his money and is then hungry, what do you do?

Once more, what do you do with the people who outlive their money? I'm looking for an answer, not a question!

Asked and answered. Rely on family.
You go to the taxpayers as a LAST resort.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Once more, what do you do with the people who outlive their money?

Once more I'll answer, again numbered. You'll note that these are the same answers provided above.

1) Families used to live together.. I like that better than paying parents to die alone. Folks that run out of money and can't / don't want to work should turn to family. Such as retiring to live with their kids.

2) Folks should be given their money back, that they paid into SS and Medicare, so they can invest and spend their money as they wish. For example, give everyone in the USA a cash check to a 401k in payment for every dollar that was paid into SS minus every dollar that was paid to them directly. (just to add, in case they run out of money, see number (1) above, folks can get a job to earn money, and can seek welfare from charities.)

Why would you assume that the people paying for their parents, and the charities that you seem to love to live off, would be any cheaper than SS and Medicare?

That is not the point.
SS and Medicare are TAXES. Governments make laws that allow government to confiscate the earnings of individuals to pay for these programs. Captive marketplace.
Giving to charity is a CHOICE.
Once again the liberal idea of compassion begins in the bank accounts of others.

 

[Polk]

Abolish the utterly retarded tax system we have now, 20% national sales tax with no loopholes, boom we're done.

A sales taxes with no deductions would, even under the most favorable estimates, have to be north of 30% to be revenue neutral.

Your came from?

The "FairTax" organization's headline number is 30%. Other studies (such as Bush's Advisory Panel on Federal Tax Reform) found higher rates, and even that assumed no evasion.