[POLL] - Liberals, how much is a "fair share?" - Taxes

[Spiderman]

Exactly.

According to PMS anyone who works a second job and saves their money to get ahead is a greedy workaholic.

I have yet to get an answer from people like PMS as to what exactly is so abhorrent about working a second job in order to improve one's financial position.

It makes you rich, thus evil. People like PMS don't like to work hard, or study, or take risks, so it's not fair to them that other people do and end up building things like companies that grow and hire people for a decent wage and build products. PMS wants us to live in caves and distribute labor and food evenly where we keep an eye on everyone and make sure no one gets ahead of anyone else in the cave.

Anybody who knows me would say that this is about as opposite who I am as can be. Yet it's a necessary thing for conservatives to believe about non conservatives, in order to buy into the cult 's mythology.

If anyone asks ''what kind of person is most susceptible to conservatism?'', remember this.

Funny how you lay into the so called rich though.

Greedy, workaholics, defective etc etc

Seems you need to believe these things to rationalize your own mythology

 

[PMZ]

Just because I don't agree with your point, does not mean that I don't understand it.

If minimum wage was moved up by 10x the poverty level would move up 10x. Poverty level does not mean what you think it means. 50% of the population will always earn more than the other half. 50% of the population will always work harder than the other half. 50% of the population will always be smarter than the other half. Why? Because if you cut an apple in half there are two sides. If everyone always gets an A no matter what they do, what's the point of having grades? What's the point of having money at all if it means nothing?

If you don't like the amount an employer offers you, become the employer.

Everyone should pay their share for the costs of this country. It should be divided up evenly, but I'm ok with it just being a flat % of income till we ban income taxes.

'' In 2007 (it's gotten worse since) the richest 1% of the American population owned 34.6% of the country's total wealth, and the next 19% owned 50.5%. Thus, the top 20% of Americans owned 85% of the country's wealth and the bottom 80% of the population owned 15%.''.

Where did you get these bullshit figures? No one is required to report how much they own to the federal government, so how does anyone know how much any particular person owns? Furthermore, most of what the top 20% own is productive capital. It's the stuff that provides knuckleheads like you with a job. They have come to own it because they have proved they are the most responsible at managing it. Do you think we should turn over ownership of the nation's industrial capacity to a bunch of welfare losers?

[Your point, I believe, is that you object to the fact that 80% of the country still have that 15% of the wealth and should help pay the taxes of the 20% who have 85% of the wealth. That would allow the wealthy to upgrade to Rolls from Bentleys while it would only cost the 80% a few meals a week.

Comments like that are the reason people think you're a numskull.

[The reason must be that the 15% work harder in their air conditioned offices and mcmansions than the field hands living in the ghetto do.

I can't tell you how compelling an argument that is.

However the "15%" got what they have, so long as they didn't get it by holding a gun on someone, it's none of your damn business how much they have.

Envy isn't an argument. it's a personality defect.

It is my business. As long as it affects my country it's my business.

I'm not in the least bit envious. Don't you read in the paper about the dysfunctional lives of the rich and famous?

The only wealthy who are heroes to me are Gates, for the global good that he has done with the second half of his life, and Buffet for being one of the few smart business men in the world for relying on fundamentals rather than fashion.

 

[RKMBrown]

I have been wildly successful. Part of that is to live happily within my means. And I pay all of my bills including taxes.

If you have to have someone else pay your taxes in order to live within your means you are doing something wrong. Either raise your means or lower your life style.

Make up your mind. You believe people should be responsible for themselves and their families and live within their means, or we should redistribute income and assets from people who have been wildly successful like you to people who don't wish to be responsible or live within their means.

Which is it?

Key phrase.

''people who don't wish to be responsible or live within their means.''

Your deluded mind believes that people choose poverty.

Here's what I believe. That you are nowhere near as exceptional as you'd like to be. That’s merely the unhappy little boy in you screaming for attention. You'll never have enough to shut him up. Even if you are successful in getting other people to give up sustenance in order to pay your taxes.

Working hard is table stakes for life. You don't work as hard as most minimum wage workers. Their work would kill you.

You played the system better because other people showed you how.

Here's one part of the system that you aren't going to game. Democracy. One man, regardless of ego, only one vote.

Our country is working just as designed and your whining is not going to change that.

>>> You don't work as hard as most minimum wage workers. Their work would kill you.

ROFL

I work my land for fun. Just this weekend, I cleared 2acres of heavily wooded land, by myself, with only the aid of my tractor my chainsaw. My wife want's 10acres of our land to look like a park, so on goes the overalls and out I go. I built my house with myself as general contractor, I did about half the work, including design, half the framing, all the grading, half the finish work, half the electrical work.

You have no idea what you are talking about when you accuse me of not being able to handle minimum wage work. I never said I was exceptional. Quite the contrary, I'm just an average guy with a somewhat high IQ (luck) and a somewhat better than average outcome.

 

[PMZ]

Just because I don't agree with your point, does not mean that I don't understand it.

If minimum wage was moved up by 10x the poverty level would move up 10x. Poverty level does not mean what you think it means. 50% of the population will always earn more than the other half. 50% of the population will always work harder than the other half. 50% of the population will always be smarter than the other half. Why? Because if you cut an apple in half there are two sides. If everyone always gets an A no matter what they do, what's the point of having grades? What's the point of having money at all if it means nothing?

If you don't like the amount an employer offers you, become the employer.

Everyone should pay their share for the costs of this country. It should be divided up evenly, but I'm ok with it just being a flat % of income till we ban income taxes.

'' In 2007 (it's gotten worse since) the richest 1% of the American population owned 34.6% of the country's total wealth, and the next 19% owned 50.5%. Thus, the top 20% of Americans owned 85% of the country's wealth and the bottom 80% of the population owned 15%.''.

Where did you get these bullshit figures? No one is required to report how much they own to the federal government, so how does anyone know how much any particular person owns? Furthermore, most of what the top 20% own is productive capital. It's the stuff that provides knuckleheads like you with a job. They have come to own it because they have proved they are the most responsible at managing it. Do you think we should turn over ownership of the nation's industrial capacity to a bunch of welfare losers?

[Your point, I believe, is that you object to the fact that 80% of the country still have that 15% of the wealth and should help pay the taxes of the 20% who have 85% of the wealth. That would allow the wealthy to upgrade to Rolls from Bentleys while it would only cost the 80% a few meals a week.

Comments like that are the reason people think you're a numskull.

[The reason must be that the 15% work harder in their air conditioned offices and mcmansions than the field hands living in the ghetto do.

I can't tell you how compelling an argument that is.

However the "15%" got what they have, so long as they didn't get it by holding a gun on someone, it's none of your damn business how much they have.

Envy isn't an argument. it's a personality defect.

Part of conservative mythology is that evidence lies. Better to go with what you wish was true.

 

[RKMBrown]

'' In 2007 (it's gotten worse since) the richest 1% of the American population owned 34.6% of the country's total wealth, and the next 19% owned 50.5%. Thus, the top 20% of Americans owned 85% of the country's wealth and the bottom 80% of the population owned 15%.''

Your point, I believe, is that you object to the fact that 80% of the country still have that 15% of the wealth and should help pay the taxes of the 20% who have 85% of the wealth. That would allow the wealthy to upgrade to Rolls from Bentleys while it would only cost the 80% a few meals a week.

The reason must be that the 15% work harder in their air conditioned offices and mcmansions than the field hands living in the ghetto do.

I can't tell you how compelling an argument that is.

>> Your point, I believe, is that you object to the fact that 80% of the country still have that 15% of the wealth and should help pay the taxes of the 20% who have 85% of the wealth. That would allow the wealthy to upgrade to Rolls from Bentleys while it would only cost the 80% a few meals a week.

Wrong. Unlike you, I do not object to rich people buying a Bentley. It's not my job to force people to work harder and smarter and try to earn more money, they have to get up off their asses all by themselves. Though the government should be doing it's job breaking up monopolies, foreign and domestic, it's not the job of government to redistribute income. Govco's job, as our employees, is to ensure equal opportunity, not equal outcomes.

>>> The reason must be that the 15% work harder in their air conditioned offices and mcmansions than the field hands living in the ghetto do.

Working hard and working smart are two different things. Even field hands have learned to ride along in air conditioned tractors.

''Working hard and working smart are two different things.''

Tell us, Rush, where your massive brain came from and how you earned it?

My name is Mike. I never listen to Rush. My brain is my own. You don't own even a small piece of it, no one does. It did not have to be bought. I can thank my parents.

 

[PMZ]

Exactly.

According to PMS anyone who works a second job and saves their money to get ahead is a greedy workaholic.

I have yet to get an answer from people like PMS as to what exactly is so abhorrent about working a second job in order to improve one's financial position.

I've done it many times. That’s my recommendation to conservatives who want someone else to pay their taxes. If you want more stuff than you can afford, raise your income.

So you're a no good greedy workaholic too?

And the only people that have others pay their income taxes are the one's who pay no income taxes.

And let's not forget about the people who pay no taxes and then get some extra back via refundable tax credits.

It's those people who are having others pay their taxes.

Tell me what's immoral about treating every earned dollar the same as every other earned dollar no matter who earns it?

We tax everything else like that don't we?

You don't get a tax break on the 5 gallons of gas you use to drive to work. Those gallons of gas could be argued to be much more important than the gallons of gas used to drive to a strip club so why not tax the strip club gas at a higher rate?

Do you see how utterly silly it is to treat a dollar differently from a gallon of gas?

I've explained why that doesn't work for the country. Pay attention. If you want cheap government treat it like you do any other purchase. Go find who offers it and take advantage of it. This is the country of good, not cheap government. Always has been. If that's not to your liking you have choices. Many of them. Don't whine, solve your problem.

 

[RKMBrown]

I have been wildly successful. Part of that is to live happily within my means. And I pay all of my bills including taxes.

If you have to have someone else pay your taxes in order to live within your means you are doing something wrong. Either raise your means or lower your life style.

There's that liberal compassion we've all come to know. "If you can't pay your bills, then make more money." Why don't we tell poor people that? We could do away with Welfare and Social Security.

God, I love liberal solutions!

Every poor person that I've ever met knows that and would do anything to achieve it.

You are another deluded conservative who believes that people choose poverty.

Of course people choose poverty. Are you saying it is impossible to be lazy? Or do you mean people in poverty would prefer to be rich while sitting on their ass doing nothing?

 

[PMZ]

Exactly.

According to PMS anyone who works a second job and saves their money to get ahead is a greedy workaholic.

I have yet to get an answer from people like PMS as to what exactly is so abhorrent about working a second job in order to improve one's financial position.

I've done it many times. That’s my recommendation to conservatives who want someone else to pay their taxes. If you want more stuff than you can afford, raise your income.

So you're a no good greedy workaholic too?

And the only people that have others pay their income taxes are the one's who pay no income taxes.

And let's not forget about the people who pay no taxes and then get some extra back via refundable tax credits.

It's those people who are having others pay their taxes.

Tell me what's immoral about treating every earned dollar the same as every other earned dollar no matter who earns it?

We tax everything else like that don't we?

You don't get a tax break on the 5 gallons of gas you use to drive to work. Those gallons of gas could be argued to be much more important than the gallons of gas used to drive to a strip club so why not tax the strip club gas at a higher rate?

Do you see how utterly silly it is to treat a dollar differently from a gallon of gas?

I'm into 'treating' people not dollars. Do you see how silly it is for a country at the extreme of wealth distribution to make it more so?

 

[RKMBrown]

I've done it many times. That’s my recommendation to conservatives who want someone else to pay their taxes. If you want more stuff than you can afford, raise your income.

So you're a no good greedy workaholic too?

And the only people that have others pay their income taxes are the one's who pay no income taxes.

And let's not forget about the people who pay no taxes and then get some extra back via refundable tax credits.

It's those people who are having others pay their taxes.

Tell me what's immoral about treating every earned dollar the same as every other earned dollar no matter who earns it?

We tax everything else like that don't we?

You don't get a tax break on the 5 gallons of gas you use to drive to work. Those gallons of gas could be argued to be much more important than the gallons of gas used to drive to a strip club so why not tax the strip club gas at a higher rate?

Do you see how utterly silly it is to treat a dollar differently from a gallon of gas?

I'm into 'treating' people not dollars. Do you see how silly it is for a country at the extreme of wealth distribution to make it more so?

So you have a god complex.

 

[PMZ]

To many Liberals, a 'fair share' would be whatever is needed to keep the Nanny State afloat and to pay for Liberal Agenda social engineering projects and to further encroach upon the independence of the individual and to increase the degree to which the individual is beholden to and dependent upon The State?

Translation: turn-on the money-faucet and let it flow at max-speed until we tell you to stop.

''Translation: turn-on the money-faucet and let it flow at max-speed until we tell you to stop.''

Look at the data. This is what we've been doing. Flowing wealth to the wealthy.

 

[Fang]

My question is why do people always say a flat tax isn't fair because the rich should pay more? If we're all paying 20% aren't the rich still paying more?

 

[Foxfyre]

Why should wealth not flow to the wealthy who earn it?

 

[Spiderman]

I've done it many times. That’s my recommendation to conservatives who want someone else to pay their taxes. If you want more stuff than you can afford, raise your income.

So you're a no good greedy workaholic too?

And the only people that have others pay their income taxes are the one's who pay no income taxes.

And let's not forget about the people who pay no taxes and then get some extra back via refundable tax credits.

It's those people who are having others pay their taxes.

Tell me what's immoral about treating every earned dollar the same as every other earned dollar no matter who earns it?

We tax everything else like that don't we?

You don't get a tax break on the 5 gallons of gas you use to drive to work. Those gallons of gas could be argued to be much more important than the gallons of gas used to drive to a strip club so why not tax the strip club gas at a higher rate?

Do you see how utterly silly it is to treat a dollar differently from a gallon of gas?

I'm into 'treating' people not dollars. Do you see how silly it is for a country at the extreme of wealth distribution to make it more so?

Taxes are about raising money for government functions.

If there is a tax on gas everyone who buys a gallon of gas pays the tax.

If there is a tax on alcohol everyone who buys alcohol pays the tax

There is a tax on income so why shouldn't everyone with an income pay income tax?

If there is going to be a tax on income why should dollar one be treated any differently from dollar 1 million?

I'm for treating all people equally as in exactly the same no matter what their income.

 

[Mr Natural]

Why should wealth not flow to the wealthy who earn it?

It does.

 

[PMZ]

My question is why do people always say a flat tax isn't fair because the rich should pay more? If we're all paying 20% aren't the rich still paying more?

Because it would make our already dysfunctional wealth distribution even more so.

 

[PMZ]

Why should wealth not flow to the wealthy who earn it?

Because, when wealth distribution is already extreme to the point of dysfunctional, making it worse is bad.

 

[RKMBrown]

My question is why do people always say a flat tax isn't fair because the rich should pay more? If we're all paying 20% aren't the rich still paying more?

Because it would make our already dysfunctional wealth distribution even more so.

Yeah cause no one could ever come up with a way to work 20% more. ROFL

 

[PMZ]

I

So you're a no good greedy workaholic too?

And the only people that have others pay their income taxes are the one's who pay no income taxes.

And let's not forget about the people who pay no taxes and then get some extra back via refundable tax credits.

It's those people who are having others pay their taxes.

Tell me what's immoral about treating every earned dollar the same as every other earned dollar no matter who earns it?

We tax everything else like that don't we?

You don't get a tax break on the 5 gallons of gas you use to drive to work. Those gallons of gas could be argued to be much more important than the gallons of gas used to drive to a strip club so why not tax the strip club gas at a higher rate?

Do you see how utterly silly it is to treat a dollar differently from a gallon of gas?

I'm into 'treating' people not dollars. Do you see how silly it is for a country at the extreme of wealth distribution to make it more so?

Taxes are about raising money for government functions.

If there is a tax on gas everyone who buys a gallon of gas pays the tax.

If there is a tax on alcohol everyone who buys alcohol pays the tax

There is a tax on income so why shouldn't everyone with an income pay income tax?

If there is going to be a tax on income why should dollar one be treated any differently from dollar 1 million?

I'm for treating all people equally as in exactly the same no matter what their income.

Because wealth distribution in the US is extreme enough now to be dysfunctional. Making it more, rather than less so, with our tax system, would increase the dysfunction.

 

[PMZ]

My question is why do people always say a flat tax isn't fair because the rich should pay more? If we're all paying 20% aren't the rich still paying more?

Because it would make our already dysfunctional wealth distribution even more so.

Yeah cause no one could ever come up with a way to work 20% more. ROFL

What?

 

[PMZ]

The argument here is classic conservative / liberal. We both want the same things, the liberal for everyone