Predestination

[Bonzi]

What are your thoughts on this?

Obviously, this would be primarily a question for Christians (though non-Christian's could weigh in)

The concept is that with God being Sovereign, it was decided from the beginning whether certain people were going to be "saved" or not.

there is more it than this, but, that the general idea.....

 

[kwc57]

Predestination and foreknowledge are two different things. We have freewill and must choose God. Being God, he may know who will choose him before it happens, but that isn't the same as him choosing who will or who won't.

 

[Bonzi]

Predestination and foreknowledge are two different things. We have freewill and must choose God. Being God, he may know who will choose him before it happens, but that isn't the same as him choosing who will or who won't.

There ARE those that are 5 point Calvinists however.. that believe it is all pre-ordained by God.
Like you, I believe God knows all but, we ultimately have freewill.

 

[Derideo_Te]

If your God is omniscient then there is no free will because the choices you imagine you are making are preordained.

Yes, that includes your sins.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The principle of predestination is strong in various Christian and Islamic sects.

I do not know about Judaism.

 

[Wry Catcher]

What are your thoughts on this?

Obviously, this would be primarily a question for Christians (though non-Christian's could weigh in)

The concept is that with God being Sovereign, it was decided from the beginning whether certain people were going to be "saved" or not.

there is more it than this, but, that the general idea.....

I think anyone who believes this see this as the freedom to do as they please, 'cause no matter what they do, it's not their fault. Much like all those born again people, no matter what they did, they will be forgiven.

 

[kwc57]

Predestination and foreknowledge are two different things. We have freewill and must choose God. Being God, he may know who will choose him before it happens, but that isn't the same as him choosing who will or who won't.

There ARE those that are 5 point Calvinists however.. that believe it is all pre-ordained by God.
Like you, I believe God knows all but, we ultimately have freewill.

The old joke about Calvinists is that when one trips and falls down, he gets up and says, "I'm glad that's behind me".

 

[JakeStarkey]

I like the old Pentecostal joke about predestination. A Pentecostal, when rescued from a desert island where he had been marooned, show off his island to those who saved him. There was his house, a chapel, and another hut he did not mention. When asked about the last hut, he merely said, dismissively, "That's where I used to go to church. But I have evolved according to God's plan." He obviously knew what he meant.

 

[Indymike]

Great thread Bonzi,

This is a topic that means a great deal to me. I believe in predestination and I also believe in God. I was brought up Christian and I ended up studying a lot of philosophy. I always found the free will debate fascinating if a bit pointless. The two sides bickering are actually both right in their own ways. In view of religion, things do get complicated. I am a big believer in cause and effect. If you go back to any particular point in time, under the exact same causal influences, and you will get the exact same outcome. I also believe in definate right and wrong. I really can't stand relativism. When it come to religion, I'm guilty of cherry picking the parts I like. Examples are faith, forgiveness, humility, unconditional love. I don't want to be a part of a life where people are on there own and there is no grand plan, and no meaning. I take great comfort that no matter how difficult life gets, there is a creator who knows us and is looking out for us.
I'll admit I don't see how people choose to believe in God. Since you have to choose God to get to Heaven, well that's a problem. I don't know much about religious history or Calvinism, but I have heard that Presbyterians used to believe in predestination. I'm curious if anyone knows how they blended the two ideas, and why later the Presybyterians gave up the notion of predestination.

 

[presonorek]

What are your thoughts on this?

Obviously, this would be primarily a question for Christians (though non-Christian's could weigh in)

The concept is that with God being Sovereign, it was decided from the beginning whether certain people were going to be "saved" or not.

there is more it than this, but, that the general idea.....

If God has to change His mind when we say prayers then God isn't omnipotent or sovereign. I believe that if God exists then there is nothing I can do to change his mind about my fate. He can do with me as He pleases and there is nothing I can do about it.

This is a Calvinist doctrine that actually makes sense. I can see the wisdom in this line of thinking. I can see the folly in believing in freewill. A freewill doctrine can cause someone to believe that they get to decide their own destiny. A predestination doctrine can cause someone to believe that God is in control. This evangelical nonsense is a marketing success but not a doctrinal or philosophical success. Christians today do not receive the full benefits of the Bible because they reject the concept of predestination.

Where does an 800 pound gorilla sit? Answer: Wherever he wants to.

Who goes to heaven and hell? Answer: Whoever God wants to send to those places.

I do believe that people forget that God is God.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Good OP. People are thinking and expressing well, imo. Very interesting reading.

 

[UllysesS.Archer]

What are your thoughts on this?

Obviously, this would be primarily a question for Christians (though non-Christian's could weigh in)

The concept is that with God being Sovereign, it was decided from the beginning whether certain people were going to be "saved" or not.

there is more it than this, but, that the general idea.....

No.

My wife said to me today, when your time's up, that's it. And that's not right either.

If I jog on the side of the road, I will probably be fine, if I job in the middle of the interstate, I probably wont be.

If God sat us on this earth, and predestiny was involved in everything that we do, then we actually have no freewill, and would only have a God that doesn't think any more of us, than we do of the grass that we cut every week or so. And that would not be a God worth serving.

But, I see God as a parent, who loves everyone of his children, and can see where we are going to screw up, yet tries to point us in the right direction, though leaving the final choice to us, like a bird let out of a cage, it's up to us, whether we fly or fall.

 

[Bonzi]

If your God is omniscient then there is no free will because the choices you imagine you are making are preordained.

Yes, that includes your sins.

Does foreknowledge necessarily conclude lack of free will?
Do you think it's possible that someone can know the future yet, still, you have free will?
Just because we can't grasp the concept, perhaps it's possible our brain are not highly functioning enough to understand.... possible?

 

[Bonzi]

What are your thoughts on this?

Obviously, this would be primarily a question for Christians (though non-Christian's could weigh in)

The concept is that with God being Sovereign, it was decided from the beginning whether certain people were going to be "saved" or not.

there is more it than this, but, that the general idea.....

I think anyone who believes this see this as the freedom to do as they please, 'cause no matter what they do, it's not their fault. Much like all those born again people, no matter what they did, they will be forgiven.

That's the issue I have with this.

If you are Predestined, why would you do anything other than what you want to do?
If God has already decided if I'm going to Heaven or Hell and what I will do with my life (and everyone else) what is my reason for telling others about Jesus?

Makes no sense for God to say go and proclaim the Gospel so that none will be lost, when it's already been decided!

Correct?

 

[Bonzi]

What are your thoughts on this?

Obviously, this would be primarily a question for Christians (though non-Christian's could weigh in)

The concept is that with God being Sovereign, it was decided from the beginning whether certain people were going to be "saved" or not.

there is more it than this, but, that the general idea.....

If God has to change His mind when we say prayers then God isn't omnipotent or sovereign. I believe that if God exists then there is nothing I can do to change his mind about my fate. He can do with me as He pleases and there is nothing I can do about it.

This is a Calvinist doctrine that actually makes sense. I can see the wisdom in this line of thinking. I can see the folly in believing in freewill. A freewill doctrine can cause someone to believe that they get to decide their own destiny. A predestination doctrine can cause someone to believe that God is in control. This evangelical nonsense is a marketing success but not a doctrinal or philosophical success. Christians today do not receive the full benefits of the Bible because they reject the concept of predestination.

Where does an 800 pound gorilla sit? Answer: Wherever he wants to.

Who goes to heaven and hell? Answer: Whoever God wants to send to those places.

I do believe that people forget that God is God.

Is it possible to have 2 good and perfect ways, or even just 2 ways for an outcome and God simple chooses another equally viable option. Not because His first choice was wrong but just agreed to go another route equally as perfect? (i.e. "changing mind")?

So you are saying with God being all powerful, he is, however unable to create a being with "free will"?

 

[Derideo_Te]

The fundamental problem of predestination is that it is an attempt to reconcile the fact that we have free will, which can only be constrained by societal mores and laws, and religion which has to deal with the omniscience paradox that religion has created for itself.

We all have free will and it is how we were raised and educated that largely determines how we will behave. But that upbringing cannot prevent things like greed, avarice, lust and outright sociopathic behaviors in some individuals. Whether it is cheating on your spouse or cheating on your taxes that is a matter of free will irrespective of your motives.

The paradox for religion comes about because they have invented an omnipotent deity and no, without omniscience, it wouldn't be omnipotent. Therein lies the problem.

An omniscient God already knows what crimes you are going to commit and by not intervening your God is an accomplice both before and after the fact. God already knows who is the next mass murderer and who the victims will be and when it is going to happen according to religious dogma.

So with that knowledge of the carnage, pain and suffering that your God could have prevented he is in no position to pass judgement on others IMO.

If you want to believe in an omniscient God then you also have to acknowledge that he is an accomplice to every crime and/or sin ever committed in the past and those that will be committed in the future.

Predestination means that your God has a dark side.

On the other hand if you don't accept the concept that your God is all knowing then you are admitting that your God is not omnipotent. Therein lies the rub. What other flaws does your less than omnipotent God possess?

Reconciling the fact of free will with the religious concept of omnipotence is a paradox and fortunately it is not one that atheists need to bother about. Only theists needs to find a way to deal with the cognitive dissonance that their religion imposes.

 

[Derideo_Te]

If your God is omniscient then there is no free will because the choices you imagine you are making are preordained.

Yes, that includes your sins.

Does foreknowledge necessarily conclude lack of free will?
Do you think it's possible that someone can know the future yet, still, you have free will?
Just because we can't grasp the concept, perhaps it's possible our brain are not highly functioning enough to understand.... possible?

Good, you are coming to grips with the essence of the cognitive dissonance that is inherent in this concept.

It is not our brains that can't grasp it. We do understand that there is a logical paradox here. What matters is how do we resolve it.

 

[Bonzi]

If your God is omniscient then there is no free will because the choices you imagine you are making are preordained.

Yes, that includes your sins.

Does foreknowledge necessarily conclude lack of free will?
Do you think it's possible that someone can know the future yet, still, you have free will?
Just because we can't grasp the concept, perhaps it's possible our brain are not highly functioning enough to understand.... possible?

Good, you are coming to grips with the essence of the cognitive dissonance that is inherent in this concept.

It is not our brains that can't grasp it. We do understand that there is a logical paradox here. What matters is how do we resolve it.

So, are you saying that there is NOTHING our brains can't grasp?

 

[Derideo_Te]

If your God is omniscient then there is no free will because the choices you imagine you are making are preordained.

Yes, that includes your sins.

Does foreknowledge necessarily conclude lack of free will?
Do you think it's possible that someone can know the future yet, still, you have free will?
Just because we can't grasp the concept, perhaps it's possible our brain are not highly functioning enough to understand.... possible?

Good, you are coming to grips with the essence of the cognitive dissonance that is inherent in this concept.

It is not our brains that can't grasp it. We do understand that there is a logical paradox here. What matters is how do we resolve it.

So, are you saying that there is NOTHING our brains can't grasp?

Where did I make that claim?

We are discussing predestination and yes, we can grasp that concept and the logical paradox that it presents.

You brought it up because it does present a cognitive dissonance problem for theists. Presumably you did so because you wanted to find out how to deal with it yourself.

Understanding the problem is the first step to resolving it.

 

[Bonzi]

If your God is omniscient then there is no free will because the choices you imagine you are making are preordained.

Yes, that includes your sins.

Does foreknowledge necessarily conclude lack of free will?
Do you think it's possible that someone can know the future yet, still, you have free will?
Just because we can't grasp the concept, perhaps it's possible our brain are not highly functioning enough to understand.... possible?

Good, you are coming to grips with the essence of the cognitive dissonance that is inherent in this concept.

It is not our brains that can't grasp it. We do understand that there is a logical paradox here. What matters is how do we resolve it.

So, are you saying that there is NOTHING our brains can't grasp?

Where did I make that claim?

We are discussing predestination and yes, we can grasp that concept and the logical paradox that it presents.

You brought it up because it does present a cognitive dissonance problem for theists. Presumably you did so because you wanted to find out how to deal with it yourself.

Understanding the problem is the first step to resolving it.

Actually, I believe the foreknowledge and free will can exist.

I do NOT believe that God "picks/picked" who he wanted in Heaven with him and who he didn't.

I also think there are things people on this earth will never be able to explain, prove or understand, yet, are still true..... I don't think a truth has to be proved or even be logical.