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If your God is omniscient then there is no free will because the choices you imagine you are making are preordained.
Yes, that includes your sins.
Does foreknowledge necessarily conclude lack of free will?
Do you think it's possible that someone can know the future yet, still, you have free will?
Just because we can't grasp the concept, perhaps it's possible our brain are not highly functioning enough to understand.... possible?
Good, you are coming to grips with the essence of the cognitive dissonance that is inherent in this concept.
It is not our brains that can't grasp it. We do understand that there is a logical paradox here. What matters is how do we resolve it.
So, are you saying that there is NOTHING our brains can't grasp?
Where did I make that claim?
We are discussing predestination and yes, we can grasp that concept and the logical paradox that it presents.
You brought it up because it does present a cognitive dissonance problem for theists. Presumably you did so because you wanted to find out how to deal with it yourself.
Understanding the problem is the first step to resolving it.
Actually, I believe the foreknowledge and free will can exist.
I do NOT believe that God "picks/picked" who he wanted in Heaven with him and who he didn't.
I also think there are things people on this earth will never be able to explain, prove or understand, yet, are still true..... I don't think a truth has to be proved or even be logical.
I am glad to see the atheists here come to grip with the cognitive dissonance that disguises the fact they cannot prove or disprove the existence of God.
The paradox for religion comes about because they have invented an omnipotent deity and no, without omniscience, it wouldn't be omnipotent. Therein lies the problem.
If you say there is no God, then, yes, you are obligated to do so. You can't, and that is why atheist beliefs are dismissed by thinking individuals.I am glad to see the atheists here come to grip with the cognitive dissonance that disguises the fact they cannot prove or disprove the existence of God.
Atheists are under no obligation to "disprove the existence of God".
If you say there is no God, then, yes, you are obligated to do so. You can't, and that is why atheist beliefs are dismissed by thinking individuals.I am glad to see the atheists here come to grip with the cognitive dissonance that disguises the fact they cannot prove or disprove the existence of God.
Atheists are under no obligation to "disprove the existence of God".
Just as Christians are under no obligation to prove the existence of God. We are only obligated to obey Him, spread the Gospel, God will prove Himself, to every person, in His time.I am glad to see the atheists here come to grip with the cognitive dissonance that disguises the fact they cannot prove or disprove the existence of God.
Atheists are under no obligation to "disprove the existence of God".
Just as Christians are under no obligation to prove the existence of God. We are only obligated to obey Him, spread the Gospel, God will prove Himself, to every person, in His time.I am glad to see the atheists here come to grip with the cognitive dissonance that disguises the fact they cannot prove or disprove the existence of God.
Atheists are under no obligation to "disprove the existence of God".
It's not my job to convince you, just to tell you. It's God's job to convince you.Just as Christians are under no obligation to prove the existence of God. We are only obligated to obey Him, spread the Gospel, God will prove Himself, to every person, in His time.I am glad to see the atheists here come to grip with the cognitive dissonance that disguises the fact they cannot prove or disprove the existence of God.
Atheists are under no obligation to "disprove the existence of God".
If you want others to believe in your god and to obey the dogma of your religion then yes, the onus is on you to provide evidence that your god exists while thousands of others don't.
It's not my job to convince you, just to tell you. It's God's job to convince you.Just as Christians are under no obligation to prove the existence of God. We are only obligated to obey Him, spread the Gospel, God will prove Himself, to every person, in His time.I am glad to see the atheists here come to grip with the cognitive dissonance that disguises the fact they cannot prove or disprove the existence of God.
Atheists are under no obligation to "disprove the existence of God".
If you want others to believe in your god and to obey the dogma of your religion then yes, the onus is on you to provide evidence that your god exists while thousands of others don't.
I'm only human, and very flawed, I commit sin daily. And though I don't want to see anyone in Hell, I won't lose any sleep over those that will be there, as long as I do what I am commanded to do, which is just to tell you. For if a person is truly looking for answers, then God will provide those answers, but if they are not looking, or have hardened their heart against God, then they wont even accept answers when knocked down by them.
Does foreknowledge necessarily conclude lack of free will?
Do you think it's possible that someone can know the future yet, still, you have free will?
Just because we can't grasp the concept, perhaps it's possible our brain are not highly functioning enough to understand.... possible?
Good, you are coming to grips with the essence of the cognitive dissonance that is inherent in this concept.
It is not our brains that can't grasp it. We do understand that there is a logical paradox here. What matters is how do we resolve it.
So, are you saying that there is NOTHING our brains can't grasp?
Where did I make that claim?
We are discussing predestination and yes, we can grasp that concept and the logical paradox that it presents.
You brought it up because it does present a cognitive dissonance problem for theists. Presumably you did so because you wanted to find out how to deal with it yourself.
Understanding the problem is the first step to resolving it.
Actually, I believe the foreknowledge and free will can exist.
I do NOT believe that God "picks/picked" who he wanted in Heaven with him and who he didn't.
I also think there are things people on this earth will never be able to explain, prove or understand, yet, are still true..... I don't think a truth has to be proved or even be logical.
I will stick with the dictionary definition of truth.
Truth Define Truth at Dictionary.com
Your fungible belief in "truthiness" is not something I am willing to embrace.
Truthiness Define Truthiness at Dictionary.com
The former is more honest IMO.
It's not my job to convince you, just to tell you. It's God's job to convince you.Just as Christians are under no obligation to prove the existence of God. We are only obligated to obey Him, spread the Gospel, God will prove Himself, to every person, in His time.I am glad to see the atheists here come to grip with the cognitive dissonance that disguises the fact they cannot prove or disprove the existence of God.
Atheists are under no obligation to "disprove the existence of God".
If you want others to believe in your god and to obey the dogma of your religion then yes, the onus is on you to provide evidence that your god exists while thousands of others don't.
I'm only human, and very flawed, I commit sin daily. And though I don't want to see anyone in Hell, I won't lose any sleep over those that will be there, as long as I do what I am commanded to do, which is just to tell you. For if a person is truly looking for answers, then God will provide those answers, but if they are not looking, or have hardened their heart against God, then they wont even accept answers when knocked down by them.
Your desire to sacrifice your own life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness to your imaginary deity is your right.
As far as I am concerned your deity is the worst sinner of all so no thanks, I will pass.
De, if you want folks to believe as you, the onus is on you as well.Just as Christians are under no obligation to prove the existence of God. We are only obligated to obey Him, spread the Gospel, God will prove Himself, to every person, in His time.I am glad to see the atheists here come to grip with the cognitive dissonance that disguises the fact they cannot prove or disprove the existence of God.
Atheists are under no obligation to "disprove the existence of God".
If you want others to believe in your god and to obey the dogma of your religion then yes, the onus is on you to provide evidence that your god exists while thousands of others don't.
What are your thoughts on this?
Obviously, this would be primarily a question for Christians (though non-Christian's could weigh in)
The concept is that with God being Sovereign, it was decided from the beginning whether certain people were going to be "saved" or not.
there is more it than this, but, that the general idea.....
.... For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction."
What are your thoughts on this?
Obviously, this would be primarily a question for Christians (though non-Christian's could weigh in)
The concept is that with God being Sovereign, it was decided from the beginning whether certain people were going to be "saved" or not.
there is more it than this, but, that the general idea.....
What does the Bible say about free will and predestination?
Keep in mind that the God of Abraham is a particularly evil being and even before people are born God sends them to hell or gives them a shitty life because that's just the evil kind of prick that he is.
- Rom.8:29-30 "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate.... Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
- Rom.9:11-22 "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
- Eph.1:4-5 "He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will."
O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps. Jeremiah 10:23
- 2 Th.2:11-12 "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned."
As you can plainly see God's will trumps free will every time. Only a real asshole would act like God.
What are your thoughts on this?
Obviously, this would be primarily a question for Christians (though non-Christian's could weigh in)
The concept is that with God being Sovereign, it was decided from the beginning whether certain people were going to be "saved" or not.
there is more it than this, but, that the general idea.....
What does the Bible say about free will and predestination?
Keep in mind that the God of Abraham is a particularly evil being and even before people are born God sends them to hell or gives them a shitty life because that's just the evil kind of prick that he is.
- Rom.8:29-30 "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate.... Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
- Rom.9:11-22 "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
- Eph.1:4-5 "He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will."
O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps. Jeremiah 10:23
- 2 Th.2:11-12 "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned."
As you can plainly see God's will trumps free will every time. Only a real asshole would act like God.
Isaiah 45:9 -
Woe to those who quarrel with their Maker, those who are nothing but potsherds among the potsherds on the ground. Does the clay say to the potter, 'What are you making?' Does your work say, 'The potter has no hands'?
Who are YOU to question God?
What are your thoughts on this?
Obviously, this would be primarily a question for Christians (though non-Christian's could weigh in)
The concept is that with God being Sovereign, it was decided from the beginning whether certain people were going to be "saved" or not.
there is more it than this, but, that the general idea.....
What does the Bible say about free will and predestination?
Keep in mind that the God of Abraham is a particularly evil being and even before people are born God sends them to hell or gives them a shitty life because that's just the evil kind of prick that he is.
- Rom.8:29-30 "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate.... Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
- Rom.9:11-22 "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
- Eph.1:4-5 "He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will."
O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps. Jeremiah 10:23
- 2 Th.2:11-12 "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned."
As you can plainly see God's will trumps free will every time. Only a real asshole would act like God.
Isaiah 45:9 -
Woe to those who quarrel with their Maker, those who are nothing but potsherds among the potsherds on the ground. Does the clay say to the potter, 'What are you making?' Does your work say, 'The potter has no hands'?
Who are YOU to question God?
Not questioning God at all and you know it. You know damn well all I did was post what God said. God said that he predestined humans for all the bad shit they face and there is nothing they can do about it. I think I need to elaborate.
What the Bible says about Free Will
Firstly: God determines who is going to heaven ...
"And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." -- Acts 13:48
"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate.... Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." -- Romans 8:29-30
"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began." -- 2 Timothy 1:9
"He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will." -- Ephesians 1:4-5
"God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation." -- 2 Thessalonians 2:13
and who is going to hell.
"God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned." -- 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
"For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation." -- Jude 4
Secondly: There's nothing you can do about it.
"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. .... For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction." -- Romans 9:11-22
What about these verses don't you understand?
