President Obama DERELICT at his number 1 responsibilty

[WorldAHope]

It's interesting that those who think a harsh interrogation technique and it's impact on a terrorist's welfare is more important than obtaining intel that can prevent future attacks against innocent American lives.

Show us that those harsh interrogation techniques worked, that they produced a better quality intel.
Show us.
If you cannot, - then those methods were ineffective, as well as illegal.

See original OP.

"What was purposefully not released was how effective the "enhanced interrogation technics" were. The mastermind of 9/11--when originally asked "nicely" if there were any other attacks planned--stated: Just wait & see! After waterboarding--he told of the 2nd wave of attacks that were planned for Los Angeles--using Asians to take over another aircraft to hit the tallest building in L.A. (a library). We have learned from these technics--names, dates & places.

This plot to destroy the Library Tower (Rove called it the "Liberty Tower" in his latest CYA attempt on Hannity 4/21/09....the US Marshals sent to arrest Rove will most likely find him on that FOX studio set, and Cheney)
in LA was foiled in Feb 2002.
The waterboarding of KSM took place months after he was captured in March 2003.

Why al-Qaida's plot to bomb L.A.'s Library Tower didn't warrant torture. - By Timothy Noah - Slate Magazine

That "protection" racket Rove has been throwing at you birdbrains about LA's building was 100% lie.
And you swallowed it, hook line and stinker, without checking.
Haven't you learned ANYTHING the last 8 years ?

 

[Iriemon]

It's interesting that those who think a harsh interrogation technique and it's impact on a terrorist's welfare is more important than obtaining intel that can prevent future attacks against innocent American lives.

I don't recall anyone thinking that.

I think the concern expressed is the effect on the country's welfare if we are to be a people who say torture is OK.

Really? Cause it's certainly is coming through to me when I read all the posts on this.

Difference of perception. I don't recall reading one post where the main point was concern about the welfare of the terrorist. It's not mine.

Torture? No. Harsh interrogation techniques? Yes. As an 'only' method? No. To be used after less harsh techniques have been used and failed? Yes.

Torture according to the US who prosecuted Japanese and Americans for it. At least before the Bush administration took office.

 

[WorldAHope]

It's interesting that those who think a harsh interrogation technique and it's impact on a terrorist's welfare is more important than obtaining intel that can prevent future attacks against innocent American lives.

Show us that those harsh interrogation techniques worked, that they produced a better quality intel.
Show us.
If you cannot, - then those methods were ineffective, as well as illegal.

[from other post of same topic]
Look, if you have the luxury of time you can use psychological interrogation. It can work under those circumstances. One of the things that (horrors) made Guantanamo a good approach despite all its other flaws (like making its existence public for example) was injecting time into the equation. Am reasonable sure that is what [the Colonel] was referring to. Any military/CIA person with an intelligence background will say the same thing.

But he also knows that when time and danger are a problem and you are charged with protecting against a potentially advancing attack, all bets are pretty much off.

If these naive clowns trying to bend public opinion on this were to have an honest purpose to what they are doing, they would say that. Ever heard one of these single issue bell ringers come at you with a balanced view? If he did, the MSM would probably not run with it.

You seem to be part of the networked crew trying to make a last ditch organized attempt to promote the notions that

a) Torture is Good, it saved Americans, produced quality intelligence - we should do it more often

b) The laws that define harsh interrogation techniques as torture are bad, and can/should be ignored,
(in secrecy) as long as you get a lawyer write you a note saying it is okay to violate the written law.

Which means all "bad" laws can /should be ignored.
And we can torture all prisoners, international and domestic, with impunity.
If the President says "FUCK the laws". we don't have to follow any laws.

This is all an attempt to avert investigation and prosecution of crimes.
Not gonna work, is it ? Gonna be an investigation and a trial.
Of top Bush administration officials.
You'd be more popular and more effective if you helped OJ find the real killers of his wife and Ron Goldman.

 

[WillowTree]

Well, I see the Blame AMerica First rally is in full swing. don't make anyone uncomfortable now ya hear? fluff they little pillows!

 

[auditor0007]

I think both sides view this as being black and white, and it is not. While using these tactics against any suspected terrorist is not in our best interest, completely rejecting the use of these techniches may well backfire. Maybe this is why Obama will not look to prosecute anyone who has done this in the past. While Obama says we will no longer use these methods, maybe he realizes that a time might come when he will need to change his mind. At least that is my hope.

 

[garyd]

We water boarded 3 people not three hundred and I doubt we had to do any of them more than once or twice.

 

[Harry Dresden]

Just for the hell of it, you might want to read up on what George Washington said about torture.

George Washington?.....every time he went to the dentist he was tortured.....

 

[Evangelical]

So I ask you Obama voters: Do you feel "safer" now?

I bit. I think Obama is undermining the anti-Americanism that fuels recruits for the bad guys. A change in direction from that last 8 years. That's good!

You voted for it--You got it!

Well, he wasn't my first choice, but

How many terrorists does Al-Qaeda need to recruit? If America manages to piss off just 19 Muslims then Al-Qaeda can kill 3,000 Americans and you're a dumbshit.

 

[Evangelical]

We water boarded 3 people not three hundred and I doubt we had to do any of them more than once or twice.

Well 128 times, which is actually ironic, because apparently water boarding is so horrific that a person can suffer it 128 times....

I'd like to see someone suffer the iron maiden 128 times, or suffer their knees being broken by mallets 128 consecutive times after the previous time has healed over.

Or I'd like to see a person suffer having their heads sawed off 128 times.

I would imagine that homosexual buttsex is a lot more painful and uncomfortable than waterboarding.

 

[rayboyusmc]

Every schoolchild knows that Gen. George Washington made extraordinary efforts to protect America's civilian population from the ravages of war. Fewer Americans know that Revolutionary War leaders, including Washington and the Continental Congress, considered the decent treatment of enemy combatants to be one of the principal strategic preoccupations of the American Revolution.

"In 1776," wrote historian David Hackett Fischer in "Washington's Crossing," "American leaders believed it was not enough to win the war. They also had to win in a way that was consistent with the values of their society and the principles of their cause. One of their greatest achievements … was to manage the war in a manner that was true to the expanding humanitarian ideals of the American Revolution."

The fact that the patriots refused to abandon these principles, even in the dark times when the war seemed lost, when the enemy controlled our cities and our ragged army was barefoot and starving, credits the character of Washington and the founding fathers and puts to shame the conduct of America's present leadership.

Fischer writes that leaders in both the Continental Congress and the Continental Army resolved that the War of Independence would be conducted with a respect for human rights. This was all the more extraordinary because these courtesies were not reciprocated by King George's armies. Indeed, the British conducted a deliberate campaign of atrocities against American soldiers and civilians. While Americans extended quarter to combatants as a matter of right and treated their prisoners with humanity, British regulars and German mercenaries were threatened by their own officers with severe punishment if they showed mercy to a surrendering American soldier. Captured Americans were tortured, starved and cruelly maltreated aboard prison ships.

Washington decided to behave differently. After capturing 1,000 Hessians in the Battle of Trenton, he ordered that enemy prisoners be treated with the same rights for which our young nation was fighting. In an order covering prisoners taken in the Battle of Princeton, Washington wrote: "Treat them with humanity, and let them have no reason to Complain of our Copying the brutal example of the British Army in their treatment of our unfortunate brethren…. Provide everything necessary for them on the road."

John Adams argued that humane treatment of prisoners and deep concern for civilian populations not only reflected the American Revolution's highest ideals, they were a moral and strategic requirement. His thoughts on the subject, expressed in a 1777 letter to his wife, might make a profitable read for Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld as we endeavor to win hearts and minds in Iraq. Adams wrote: "I know of no policy, God is my witness, but this — Piety, Humanity and Honesty are the best Policy. Blasphemy, Cruelty and Villainy have prevailed and may again. But they won't prevail against America, in this Contest, because I find the more of them are employed, the less they succeed."

Even British military leaders involved in the atrocities recognized their negative effects on the overall war effort. In 1778, Col. Charles Stuart wrote to his father, the Earl of Bute: "Wherever our armies have marched, wherever they have encamped, every species of barbarity has been executed. We planted an irrevocable hatred wherever we went, which neither time nor measure will be able to eradicate."

In the end, our founding fathers not only protected our national values, they defeated a militarily superior enemy. Indeed, it was their disciplined adherence to those values that helped them win a hopeless struggle against the best soldiers in Europe.

In accordance with this proud American tradition, President Lincoln instituted the first formal code of conduct for the humane treatment of prisoners of war in 1863. Lincoln's order forbade any form of torture or cruelty, and it became the model for the 1929 Geneva Convention. Dwight Eisenhower made a point to guarantee exemplary treatment to German POWs in World War II, and Gen. Douglas McArthur ordered application of the Geneva Convention during the Korean War, even though the U.S. was not yet a signatory. In the Vietnam War, the United States extended the convention's protection to Viet Cong prisoners even though the law did not technically require it.

Today, our president is again challenged to align the conduct of a war with the values of our nation. America's treatment of its prisoners is a test of our faith in our country and the character of our leaders.

Copyright 2005 Los Angeles Times

Abandon your values at your own risk.

 

[rayboyusmc]

Well, I see the Blame AMerica First rally is in full swing.

As usual, you are full of fake right wing pseudo patriotic crap Willow.

We are blaming Bush, Cheney and Company - Not America.

Fucking bullshit, my Dear.

 

[dilloduck]

Well, I see the Blame AMerica First rally is in full swing.

As usual, you are full of fake right wing pseudo patriotic crap Willow.

We are blaming Bush, Cheney and Company - Not America.

Fucking bullshit, my Dear.

What alternative method of quickly gathering intelligence from captured terrorists do you recommend?

 

[Harry Dresden]

Well, I see the Blame AMerica First rally is in full swing.

As usual, you are full of fake right wing pseudo patriotic crap Willow.

We are blaming Bush, Cheney and Company - Not America.

Fucking bullshit, my Dear.

What alternative method of quickly gathering intelligence from captured terrorists do you recommend?

put them in a room with Nancy Pelosi,or threaten to send them to Detroit.....they'll talk...

 

[dilloduck]

As usual, you are full of fake right wing pseudo patriotic crap Willow.

We are blaming Bush, Cheney and Company - Not America.

Fucking bullshit, my Dear.

What alternative method of quickly gathering intelligence from captured terrorists do you recommend?

put them in a room with Nancy Pelosi,or threaten to send them to Detroit.....they'll talk...

Seriously---if using POWs to gather intelligence that might shorten a war and save lives is just too cruel they may as well be just be shot.

 

[Iriemon]

Well, I see the Blame AMerica First rally is in full swing.

As usual, you are full of fake right wing pseudo patriotic crap Willow.

We are blaming Bush, Cheney and Company - Not America.

Fucking bullshit, my Dear.

What alternative method of quickly gathering intelligence from captured terrorists do you recommend?

Same ones cops use.

 

[Red Dawn]

What alternative method of quickly gathering intelligence from captured terrorists do you recommend?

put them in a room with Nancy Pelosi,or threaten to send them to Detroit.....they'll talk...

Seriously---if using POWs to gather intelligence that might shorten a war and save lives is just too cruel they may as well be just be shot.

So if we ever fought a war with China, russia, or north korea, you recommend that they waterboard, and torture captured americans, in the name of their national security interests?

 

[rayboyusmc]

Just sthow out the baby with the fear. THat's the right wing response right now.

Or pull up tthe crap lyne cheney did: We use torture methods in our SERE training on our troops, so that must not be torture.

You will also notice the RNC is now using "Banana Republic" as one of their talking point.s

 

[WillowTree]

Well, I see the Blame AMerica First rally is in full swing.

As usual, you are full of fake right wing pseudo patriotic crap Willow.

We are blaming Bush, Cheney and Company - Not America.

Fucking bullshit, my Dear.

Newp,, it's always blame america first with you guys,, like hill said,, mexico's problems are the fault of the usa and just yesterday guess what? pakeeeestans's problems are the fault of the usa,, yep the Blame America First club rally is indeed in full swing raymyboy

 

[Harry Dresden]

put them in a room with Nancy Pelosi,or threaten to send them to Detroit.....they'll talk...

Seriously---if using POWs to gather intelligence that might shorten a war and save lives is just too cruel they may as well be just be shot.

So if we ever fought a war with China, russia, or north korea, you recommend that they waterboard, and torture captured americans, in the name of their national security interests?

and you dont think they would?......open up your eyes dude.....geezus....like lil Kim is gonna care what anyone thinks.....or is it better to stick bamboo under their finger nails?...for anyone to think,and i dont care if your a lib or consv....that we are the only country that has tortured or waterboarded someone.....then that person is a delusional FOOL....actually an IDIOT....

 

[Iriemon]

Seriously---if using POWs to gather intelligence that might shorten a war and save lives is just too cruel they may as well be just be shot.

So if we ever fought a war with China, russia, or north korea, you recommend that they waterboard, and torture captured americans, in the name of their national security interests?

and you dont think they would?......open up your eyes dude.....geezus....like lil Kim is gonna care what anyone thinks.....or is it better to stick bamboo under their finger nails?...for anyone to think,and i dont care if your a lib or consv....that we are the only country that has tortured or waterboarded someone.....then that person is a delusional FOOL....actually an IDIOT....

So when we capture the Korean interrogators who waterboarded our guys 183 times, you're going to say, that's ok, waterboarding isn't torture?