Problems With Socialized Medicine & Government Healthcare

[sangha]

Yes I did. Go read the links I posted early on. You keep on lieing about what I've said seeing as it's the only way you can win the argument. You've lied in every post for probably the last dozen or so about what I've said. I NEVER said the DoL had stats on France. They are of course U.S. figures. and you are the one who claimed those statistics for the U.S. were wrong.

No, you posted #'s that excluded the military and the instutionalized, two of the largest groups of health care consumers

Actually you made that up, because nowhere in the DoL numbers cited does it indicate those people were excluded.

Sure it didn't. And you never said that someone is going to want their money back from the DoD

I'm pretty sure no one is giving money to the dept of defense knowing their never going to get it back

 

[Bern80]

I see. You say it, then you deny saying it, so when I prove you said it, it's just "nitpicking"

And you follow it up with a claim that "no one" means "whoever is financing the govts' debt". FYI, the treasury finances the difference in the DoD budget, and the treasury does not want or expect the money back.

NO SHIT the treasury knows what was taken to pay for the DoD is not a loan. Anything else you'd like to add cpt. obvious? What I'm telling you is the difference in the DoD budget and what the treasury supplied via the taxpayers was paid for by someone.

Once again, when are you going to explain how the DoD, which has run a deficit for CENTURIES is unsustainable? The DoD's "credit card" has a balance of $548.9 billion. Last time I looked, $548.9 billion is a lot more than $10,000

Once again do YOU consider it sustainable to have a credit card debt and only pay the minimums on your balance each month?

 

[Bern80]

Sure it didn't. And you never said that someone is going to want their money back from the DoD

Well you never cited it any evidence for that statement and I certainly can't find anywhere in the links I provided where that is stated. So I'm forced to pull a page out of your play book; until you cite where it is stated that the DoL numbers don't include what you claim the only conclusion one can draw is that you made it up.

 

[sangha]

I see. You say it, then you deny saying it, so when I prove you said it, it's just "nitpicking"

And you follow it up with a claim that "no one" means "whoever is financing the govts' debt". FYI, the treasury finances the difference in the DoD budget, and the treasury does not want or expect the money back.

NO SHIT the treasury knows what was taken to pay for the DoD is not a loan. Anything else you'd like to add cpt. obvious? What I'm telling you is the difference in the DoD budget and what the treasury supplied via the taxpayers was paid for by someone.

No, what you told me is that

I'm pretty sure no one is giving money to the dept of defense knowing their never going to get it back

Now you're claiming that you meant that NOBODY expects to get any money back from the DoD

Once again, when are you going to explain how the DoD, which has run a deficit for CENTURIES is unsustainable? The DoD's "credit card" has a balance of $548.9 billion. Last time I looked, $548.9 billion is a lot more than $10,000

Once again do YOU consider it sustainable to have a credit card debt and only pay the minimums on your balance each month?

So now you have to make up stuff about paying the minimum?

Who is only paying the minimum each month? France? The DoD?

 

[sangha]

Sure it didn't. And you never said that someone is going to want their money back from the DoD

Well you never cited it any evidence for that statement and I certainly can't find anywhere in the links I provided where that is stated. So I'm forced to pull a page out of your play book; until you cite where it is stated that the DoL numbers don't include what you claim the only conclusion one can draw is that you made it up.

Of course I never quoted from the link, And you never said

I'm pretty sure no one is giving money to the dept of defense knowing their never going to get it back

 

[Bern80]

Sure it didn't. And you never said that someone is going to want their money back from the DoD

Well you never cited it any evidence for that statement and I certainly can't find anywhere in the links I provided where that is stated. So I'm forced to pull a page out of your play book; until you cite where it is stated that the DoL numbers don't include what you claim the only conclusion one can draw is that you made it up.

Of course I never quoted from the link, And you never said

I'm pretty sure no one is giving money to the dept of defense knowing their never going to get it back

Okay Sang. Which is more important to you? What I typed (even though most should have understood the context) or what my argument actually is?

So now you have to make up stuff about paying the minimum?

Who is only paying the minimum each month? France? The DoD?

We aren't even to France yet. The question stands on it's own and it's a simple yes or no. Pick one.

 

[sangha]

Well you never cited it any evidence for that statement and I certainly can't find anywhere in the links I provided where that is stated. So I'm forced to pull a page out of your play book; until you cite where it is stated that the DoL numbers don't include what you claim the only conclusion one can draw is that you made it up.

Of course I never quoted from the link, And you never said

Okay Sang. Which is more important to you? What I typed (even though most should have understood the context) or what my argument actually is?

I'm still waiting for you to make an argument. So far, all you've done is make claims

So now you have to make up stuff about paying the minimum?

Who is only paying the minimum each month? France? The DoD?

We aren't even to France yet. The question stands on it's own and it's a simple yes or no. Pick one.

Umm, I see no relevancy to your question. Neither the DoD nor the french health care systems finances its' budget with a credit card that it only pays the minimum on. When you can explain the relevancy of this to the DoD's budget, then I'll respond.

 

[Bern80]

Umm, I see no relevancy to your question. Neither the DoD nor the french health care systems finances its' budget with a credit card that it only pays the minimum on. When you can explain the relevancy of this to the DoD's budget, then I'll respond.

It is relevent because wether it is an individual or government both have debt. Both commited to paying for things that didn't immediatly have the money for. That difference needs to be paid for sometime, some way. In the case of an individual a balance goes on their credit card and you pay off the balance over time while the credit card company completes the transaction with the seller. The same scenario is applicable to government spending. The DoD and the French healh care system have commited to paying for x amount of dollars worth of stuff. The find, AFTER the treasury has kicked in their part they still don't have the money to cover x right now. We'll use some fake numbers because for purposes of this exercise the numbers are irrelevent. Either the DoD or French health care, whomever you want to use for this example, have say a budget of $100 million dollars for the year. Once they've collected all the tax revenue they can and fees and what not they find the only have 75 million.

My question is in the case of government, who pays the 25 million dollar difference that is still owed? It's not the taxpayers. They already kicked in their shaere. It can be done a few ways. Maybe they agree to pay the 100 million over time or maybe they are loaned the money. Let's look at it financed over a period of time;

Maybe the DoD gets it's various contractors to agree to paying that 100 million over 10 years. So they owe 10 million dollars every year for 10 years to pay for the current years budget, probably with interest. What happens the next year. We all know government budgets and we know they almost never go down. So the next years budget is also at least 100 million dollars. The decided to finance THAT over 10 years, now owing at least 20 million a year for the next 9 years (in the incredible unliklihood they don't do the same with next years budget). Now explain to me how either that is not a plausible scenario or why it's not a problem.

 

[sangha]

Umm, I see no relevancy to your question. Neither the DoD nor the french health care systems finances its' budget with a credit card that it only pays the minimum on. When you can explain the relevancy of this to the DoD's budget, then I'll respond.

It is relevent because wether it is an individual or government both have debt. Both commited to paying for things that didn't immediatly have the money for. That difference needs to be paid for sometime, some way.

And it is being paid for. And not in "some way"; It's paid for with tax revenues from the treasury. So how are credit cards relevant?

In the case of an individual a balance goes on their credit card and you pay off the balance over time while the credit card company completes the transaction with the seller. The same scenario is applicable to government spending. The DoD and the French healh care system have commited to paying for x amount of dollars worth of stuff. The find, AFTER the treasury has kicked in their part they still don't have the money to cover x right now. We'll use some fake numbers because for purposes of this exercise the numbers are irrelevent. Either the DoD or French health care, whomever you want to use for this example, have say a budget of $100 million dollars for the year. Once they've collected all the tax revenue they can and fees and what not they find the only have 75 million.

Neither the DoD nor Frances' health care system borrow money to fund their deficits, so there is nothing to pay off over time. Once again, you're claiming that taxpayers are expecting a refund from the DoD.

My question is in the case of government, who pays the 25 million dollar difference that is still owed? It's not the taxpayers.

Yes it is the taxpayers, you idiot. In your example, the DoD (or the french health care system) gets $100million from the treasury. They owe nothing to no one. There is no one to pay back, and no one who expects to be paid back. Not the tax payers, and not the treasury

They already kicked in their shaere. It can be done a few ways. Maybe they agree to pay the 100 million over time or maybe they are loaned the money. Let's look at it financed over a period of time;

Maybe the DoD gets it's various contractors to agree to paying that 100 million over 10 years. So they owe 10 million dollars every year for 10 years to pay for the current years budget, probably with interest. What happens the next year. We all know government budgets and we know they almost never go down. So the next years budget is also at least 100 million dollars. The decided to finance THAT over 10 years, now owing at least 20 million a year for the next 9 years (in the incredible unliklihood they don't do the same with next years budget). Now explain to me how either that is not a plausible scenario or why it's not a problem.

No, the DoD got 100million from the treasury. The borrowed nothing. They paid their contractors. The DoD is not endebted to those contractors.

But at least I now know WHY your credit card argument is irrelevant. It's because you're such a loon, you think the DoD (and the french health care system) are financing their budgets with loans

Where did you get this wacky idea from ?

 

[Bern80]

Umm, I see no relevancy to your question. Neither the DoD nor the french health care systems finances its' budget with a credit card that it only pays the minimum on. When you can explain the relevancy of this to the DoD's budget, then I'll respond.

It is relevent because wether it is an individual or government both have debt. Both commited to paying for things that didn't immediatly have the money for. That difference needs to be paid for sometime, some way.

And it is being paid for. And not in "some way"; It's paid for with tax revenues from the treasury. So how are credit cards relevant?



Neither the DoD nor Frances' health care system borrow money to fund their deficits, so there is nothing to pay off over time. Once again, you're claiming that taxpayers are expecting a refund from the DoD.

My question is in the case of government, who pays the 25 million dollar difference that is still owed? It's not the taxpayers.

Yes it is the taxpayers, you idiot. In your example, the DoD (or the french health care system) gets $100million from the treasury. They owe nothing to no one. There is no one to pay back, and no one who expects to be paid back. Not the tax payers, and not the treasury

They already kicked in their shaere. It can be done a few ways. Maybe they agree to pay the 100 million over time or maybe they are loaned the money. Let's look at it financed over a period of time;

Maybe the DoD gets it's various contractors to agree to paying that 100 million over 10 years. So they owe 10 million dollars every year for 10 years to pay for the current years budget, probably with interest. What happens the next year. We all know government budgets and we know they almost never go down. So the next years budget is also at least 100 million dollars. The decided to finance THAT over 10 years, now owing at least 20 million a year for the next 9 years (in the incredible unliklihood they don't do the same with next years budget). Now explain to me how either that is not a plausible scenario or why it's not a problem.

No, the DoD got 100million from the treasury. The borrowed nothing. They paid their contractors. The DoD is not endebted to those contractors.

But at least I now know WHY your credit card argument is irrelevant. It's because you're such a loon, you think the DoD (and the french health care system) are financing their budgets with loans

Where did you get this wacky idea from ?

I can not for the life of me figure out how someone can possibly be so dumb as to conclude I said any of the above.

LISTEN YOU FUCKING MORON.

What I said was the DoDs budget is 100 million dollars. In taxes they collect 75 million dollars. THAT is how much they got from the treasury, not all 100 million. If they got all 100 million we wouldn't be talking about deficits at all because there wouldn't be one. How fucking retarded are you?

They don't borrow money to pay for their deficits. How EXACTLY do they pay what they owe then?

Just out of curiosity how much money do you owe that you don't think you owe?

 

[sangha]

It is relevent because wether it is an individual or government both have debt. Both commited to paying for things that didn't immediatly have the money for. That difference needs to be paid for sometime, some way.

And it is being paid for. And not in "some way"; It's paid for with tax revenues from the treasury. So how are credit cards relevant?



Neither the DoD nor Frances' health care system borrow money to fund their deficits, so there is nothing to pay off over time. Once again, you're claiming that taxpayers are expecting a refund from the DoD.



Yes it is the taxpayers, you idiot. In your example, the DoD (or the french health care system) gets $100million from the treasury. They owe nothing to no one. There is no one to pay back, and no one who expects to be paid back. Not the tax payers, and not the treasury

They already kicked in their shaere. It can be done a few ways. Maybe they agree to pay the 100 million over time or maybe they are loaned the money. Let's look at it financed over a period of time;

Maybe the DoD gets it's various contractors to agree to paying that 100 million over 10 years. So they owe 10 million dollars every year for 10 years to pay for the current years budget, probably with interest. What happens the next year. We all know government budgets and we know they almost never go down. So the next years budget is also at least 100 million dollars. The decided to finance THAT over 10 years, now owing at least 20 million a year for the next 9 years (in the incredible unliklihood they don't do the same with next years budget). Now explain to me how either that is not a plausible scenario or why it's not a problem.

No, the DoD got 100million from the treasury. The borrowed nothing. They paid their contractors. The DoD is not endebted to those contractors.

But at least I now know WHY your credit card argument is irrelevant. It's because you're such a loon, you think the DoD (and the french health care system) are financing their budgets with loans

Where did you get this wacky idea from ?

I can not for the life of me figure out how someone can possibly be so dumb as to conclude I said any of the above.

LISTEN YOU FUCKING MORON.

What I said was the DoDs budget is 100 million dollars. In taxes they collect 75 million dollars. THAT is how much they got from the treasury, not all 100 million. If they got all 100 million we wouldn't be talking about deficits at all because there wouldn't be one. How fucking retarded are you?

They don't borrow money to pay for their deficits. How EXACTLY do they pay what they owe then?

Just out of curiosity how much money do you owe that you don't think you owe?

God you are funny

The DoD doesn't collect anything in taxes. The IRS does. The money goes into the treasury. The treasury GIVES, not loans, all $100 million to the DoD because that's what an act of congress orders them to do.

But keep insisting that the DoD only receives a fraction of what Congress allocates to the DoD. I could always use additional laughs

 

[Bern80]

God you are funny

The DoD doesn't collect anything in taxes. The IRS does. The money goes into the treasury. The treasury GIVES, not loans, all $100 million to the DoD because that's what an act of congress orders them to do.

But keep insisting that the DoD only receives a fraction of what Congress allocates to the DoD. I could always use additional laughs

oh......so neither the DoD nor the French health care system run deficits after all. good to know.

 

[sangha]

God you are funny

The DoD doesn't collect anything in taxes. The IRS does. The money goes into the treasury. The treasury GIVES, not loans, all $100 million to the DoD because that's what an act of congress orders them to do.

But keep insisting that the DoD only receives a fraction of what Congress allocates to the DoD. I could always use additional laughs

oh......so neither the DoD nor the French health care system run deficits after all. good to know.

They do run deficits. They don't have to borrow money to pay for them. Instead, the legislature passes an appropriations bill which instructs the treasury to supply the money. There is no loan. There is no credit card. There is no interest.

Want to try again?

 

[Bern80]

God you are funny

The DoD doesn't collect anything in taxes. The IRS does. The money goes into the treasury. The treasury GIVES, not loans, all $100 million to the DoD because that's what an act of congress orders them to do.

But keep insisting that the DoD only receives a fraction of what Congress allocates to the DoD. I could always use additional laughs

oh......so neither the DoD nor the French health care system run deficits after all. good to know.

They do run deficits. They don't have to borrow money to pay for them. Instead, the legislature passes an appropriations bill which instructs the treasury to supply the money. There is no loan. There is no credit card. There is no interest.

Want to try again?

So it would be your contention that deficits are meaningless as far as government spending is concerned?

Gonna do a hypothetical here and you tell me where I mess up okay.

Some countries budgest for fiscal year is a trilliion dollars. The treasury can't collect a trillion dollars in taxes, but somehow the treausury comes up with the money anyway? how exactly? Don't you fucking get it. This is what americans are so pissed off about. That government spends more than the treasuery and IRS collect from taxpayers. And your telling me, somehow the treasury comes up with the money anyway?

 

[sangha]

oh......so neither the DoD nor the French health care system run deficits after all. good to know.

They do run deficits. They don't have to borrow money to pay for them. Instead, the legislature passes an appropriations bill which instructs the treasury to supply the money. There is no loan. There is no credit card. There is no interest.

Want to try again?

So it would be your contention that deficits are meaningless as far as government spending is concerned?

So it would be your contention that the DoD finances some of its' activites by putting in on a DoD credit card and then only pays the minimum?

 

[Bern80]

They do run deficits. They don't have to borrow money to pay for them. Instead, the legislature passes an appropriations bill which instructs the treasury to supply the money. There is no loan. There is no credit card. There is no interest.

Want to try again?

So it would be your contention that deficits are meaningless as far as government spending is concerned?

So it would be your contention that the DoD finances some of its' activites by putting in on a DoD credit card and then only pays the minimum?

No. My contention is that the DoD and french health care system spend more than they take in in tax revenues.

 

[sangha]

So it would be your contention that deficits are meaningless as far as government spending is concerned?

So it would be your contention that the DoD finances some of its' activites by putting in on a DoD credit card and then only pays the minimum?

No. My contention is that the DoD and french health care system spend more than they take in in tax revenues.

Neither the DoD nor the french health care system "take in" any tax revenues. The IRS collects the money and deposits it in the treasurys' acct. Money is appropriated from the treasury by the legislature.

 

[bornright]

Sometimes we have to face a real problem before we can understand to consequences. I first off want to say I want the Congresswoman from Arizona to survive. Let us think about a scenerio in a few years where a person is wounded in such a manner as her. The cost is now and will be then unbelievably high and the odds of a complete recovery is low. Does this "liberal desired" government health care just refuse benefits because of the cost and time? Perhaps with her being a congresswoman she would recieve the benefits but would you? Will some medical board decide the cost is just too great and allow you to die? Please do not think that there will be a government medical board that will make the decision.

 

[Bern80]

So it would be your contention that the DoD finances some of its' activites by putting in on a DoD credit card and then only pays the minimum?

No. My contention is that the DoD and french health care system spend more than they take in in tax revenues.

Neither the DoD nor the french health care system "take in" any tax revenues. The IRS collects the money and deposits it in the treasurys' acct. Money is appropriated from the treasury by the legislature.

And the point is that the the treasury acct. (filled by the tax payers) doesn't have enough money in it to cover all of its expenses.

 

[sangha]

No. My contention is that the DoD and french health care system spend more than they take in in tax revenues.

Neither the DoD nor the french health care system "take in" any tax revenues. The IRS collects the money and deposits it in the treasurys' acct. Money is appropriated from the treasury by the legislature.

And the point is that the the treasury acct. (filled by the tax payers) doesn't have enough money in it to cover all of its expenses.

So are you saying the treasury is unsustainable?

Anyway, you're even wrong about this. The treasurys accts contain several trillions of dollars in notes, bonds, and other cash equivalents. It uses these assets as collateral for loans which it has the money to cover.

You really don't understand finance at all, do you? For example, if I made $50K last year and I spent $70K in the same time period (last year) does that mean I had to borrow money?