Putin Declares War on the Ukraine

Who said I wanted war? The second time I've asked.

I want this to be absolved through non-lethal means. But we can't very well do that with two countries colluding to get in the way, can we?

And this? This speaks to your ignorance.

What were the Russian desires so that peace could continue?

I see you sit there and blame Russia and China. . . .

Let's see, tell me what Russia desired to maintain the peace, tell me what it desired in negotiations.
 
And this? This speaks to your ignorance.

What were the Russian desires so that peace could continue?

I see you sit there and blame Russia and China. . . .

Let's see, tell me what Russia desired to maintain the peace, tell me what it desired in negotiations.

What are you talking about?

It seems here I am thinking ahead while you sit mired in the past and the present.

Russia has caused geopolitical upheaval by invading Ukraine. If we want to keep our troops out, we invoke those methods.

And what escapes you is that this is what I would do.

I am blaming Russia and China for their future attempts to impede the actions of the UN Security Council by engaging in obstructive behavior we both know they will undertake. Their past behavior suggests their future behavior.

I won't go so low as to attack your reading comprehension, but it seems clear here yours was absent in this discussion.
 
I want this to be absolved through non-lethal means. But we can't very well do that with two countries colluding to get in the way, can we?

They won't work simply for the lack of willingness to try.

Again? The blame, most certainly seems, to all be on NATO, doesn't it? Neither Britain, nor the US, nor the puppet government in Kiev ever gave the Minsk agreement a chance to work, did they?

:dunno:
 

Putin Declares War on the Ukraine​



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So, we continually allow Russia and China to obstruct any UN (and ergo European) attempt to help Ukraine? Okay, if that undermines my intellectual credit, which I did not seek from you, so be it. I make my own intellectual capital, I don't need "credit" from myopic people such as yourself.

Their very existence as founding members of the UN, while good-natured at the founding, are now acting as impediments to its function now.

You want Europe to deal with their problems, remove the obstacles.

Wokeness be damned. Your protestations be damned.
Of course, the UN was designed to allow other countries a place to air their opinions and grievances, it never really applied to the P5.

Every nation is going to pursue their own interests, as is their right. That will not always be in our interests, nor ours in the interests of others. The US seems to have forgotten that. Fools in DC think they can return the world to a bygone time of the bi-polar Cold War. That's not going to happen. At best you get a three sided Cold War with the US, China, and Russia. That's not a winning combination for us.
 
When it goes to an arbitration for the use of that proposal at the UN you suggested? That is precisely what the Russians and Chinese will tell the community of nations that the US and its allies have been acting like. . . pirates, imperialists, mercantilists . . . on the international stage.

That is no excuse for what Russia has done, and what China would strive to do by obstructing the council, I would contend.

Namecalling is irrelevant when one country destroys the peace in the region while another impedes its reacquisition through obstruction.
 
What are you talking about?

It seems here I am thinking ahead while you sit mired in the past and the present.

Russia has caused geopolitical upheaval by invading Ukraine. If we want to keep our troops out, we invoke those methods.

And what escapes you is that this is what I would do.

I am blaming Russia and China for their future attempts to impede the actions of the UN Security Council by engaging in obstructive behavior we both know they will undertake. Their past behavior suggests their future behavior.

I won't go so low as to attack your reading comprehension, but it seems clear here yours was absent in this discussion.
Well then, I apologize.

I took this to mean;

I want this to be absolved through non-lethal means. But we can't very well do that with two countries colluding to get in the way, can we?

You were referring to Russia and China were you not?

.. . . and if you were? Then, does it not seem reasonable to conclude that you are, in fact, making a misinformed statement, when, it is in fact the NATO allies that are the ones getting in the way?

:dunno:
 
One of the numerous episodes of the shelling of Donbass by Ukrainian bandits. Now they are getting the payback
 
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Every nation is going to pursue their own interests, as is their right

Of course, but they surrendered those ambitions the moment they joined the UN, the US included. And if one country or three endangers the ambitions of the collective nations, whatever they might be, logically those threats should be removed. Whether it is woke or not is beside the point. But the mistake has already been made. Those ambitions are being dictated by two nations who have no business being on the council anymore.

Liberty for temporary safety.
 
That is no excuse for what Russia has done

. . . and when NATO bombed and invaded Libya, Iraq, and Afghanistan? It was no excuse either. :meow:

All of those nations, as told by members of the western alliance, were a "threat," to member states.

From my analysis, though I don't buy the story much on either side. . . I'd buy the narrative that Ukraine could produce a nuke much quicker than either Libya, Iraq, or Afghanistan, and if I were in Russia's shoes, would find it to be far more of a threat. . .

. . . think about it, if Mexico were a hostile nation capable of making a nuke, how long do you think it would go without being invaded, if it refused to come to the table and negotiate?

You do know, that NATO, the US, and the Ukrainian puppet state were NOT negotiating, right?

:dunno:

You just don't seem to want to engage in logical discussion. I tell you what.
 
. and if you were? Then, does it not seem reasonable to conclude that you are, in fact, making a misinformed statement, when, it is in fact the NATO allies that are the ones getting in the way?

NATO need not get involved. This is a UN matter, strictly speaking. NATO and the UN strive toward the same peaceful goals but are two distinct organizations.
 
. . . and when NATO bombed and invaded Libya, Iraq, and Afghanistan? It was no excuse either. :meow:

All of those nations, as told by members of the western alliance, were a "threat," to member states.

From my analysis, though I don't buy the story much on either side. . . I'd buy the narrative that Ukraine could produce a nuke much quicker than either Libya, Iraq, or Afghanistan, and if I were in Russia's shoes, would find it to be far more of a threat. . .

. . . think about it, if Mexico were a hostile nation capable of making a nuke, how long do you think it would go without being invaded, if it refused to come to the table and negotiate?

You do know, that NATO, the US, and the Ukrainian puppet state were NOT negotiating, right?

:dunno:

You just don't seem to want to engage in logical discussion. I tell you what.

Oh I see.

But NATO is irrelevant to this discussion.

I am talking about the UN, and only the UN.
 
NATO need not get involved. This is a UN matter, strictly speaking. NATO and the UN strive toward the same peaceful goals but are two distinct organizations.
Tell that to Yugoslavia.

. . . oh wait.

Tell that to Libya.

. . . oh wait.

NATO strives toward peaceful goals. :auiqs.jpg:

 
Of course, but they surrendered those ambitions the moment they joined the UN, the US included. And if one country or three endangers the ambitions of the collective nations, whatever they might be, logically those threats should be removed. Whether it is woke or not is beside the point. But the mistake has already been made. Those ambitions are being dictated by two nations who have no business being on the council anymore.

Liberty for temporary safety.
Not the P5. How many wars of aggression has the US engaged in over the last 70 year? Do really think selling weapons to countries keeps with the intent of the UN charter? One could argue the wars by proxy over years are just as bad or worse violations of the intent of the UN. All P5 members have engaged in this. Anyone with an ounce of integrity would hold them all to the same standard. I support most of what the US has done over the years. The difference is I don't begrudge others for doing the same.

The world is an uncertain place. I'll take liberty over theoretical safety any day. In case nobody has noticed, the world is changing. The technological gap that once made the US virtually Supreme is closing fast. Globalization has eroded our influence and created resentments across a broad scale. For now I support a reassessment of our situation, solidifying our own region, and preparing ourselves for the worst without actually provoking it.
 

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