Putin Declares War on the Ukraine

[MisterBeale]

I am engaging in logical discussion. Using the very methods available to the UN to deal with this matter in a peaceful manner.

The UN is a corrupt puppet of global oligarchs bent on corporate world domination.

I am really surprised you don't know this. It belongs in the scrap heap of history.

Agenda 21/2030 is tied at the hip with the Trilateral Commission and the World Economic Forum, and they have brought to the world this COVID bio-security paradigm, and this AGW climate change hoax as a means to try to impose complete global control.

The global oligarchs in charge of the UN need to be shot, not given more power.

The folks that need to deal with this situation are the foreign secretaries for the various nations that have an interest in resolving this matter.

. . . and the issue for us in the United States? Is whether we need to get involved at all. . . which most certainly we do NOT.

Lukashenko warns Belarus will go to war if Russia is attacked

Alexander Lukashenko warns that the West is trying to ‘drown’ the region in blood, but insists he doesn’t want war with Ukraine.

www.politico.eu

 

[TemplarKormac]

Not the P5. How many wars of aggression has the US engaged in over the last 70 years? Do really think selling weapons to countries keeps with the intent of the UN charter?

Why are we so focused on what the US did?

Peacekeeping isn't necessarily simply about engaging in diplomacy, is it? What good is diplomacy without deterrent action?

 

[MisterBeale]

Stawmen, all of them.

Oh you who are stuck in the past.

I have stated multiple times I am not talking about NATO.

NATO has been conducting exercises in UKRAINE, and has breaking the terms of the Minsk agreement! Why the hell do you think Russia is invading now?

Don't you have a clue what the hell is going on?!

The US, Britain, NATO. . . none of them have been willing to peacefully negotiate a settlement. . . I KEEP TELLING YOU THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

War in Europe and the Rise of Raw Propaganda​

War in Europe and the Rise of Raw Propaganda

Marshall McLuhan’s prophecy that “the successor to politics will be propaganda” has happened. Raw propaganda is now the rule in Western democracies, especially the US and Britain On matters of war and peace, ministerial deceit is reported as news. Inconvenient facts are censored, demons are...

www.counterpunch.org

". . . On 16 December, the United Nations tabled a resolution that called for “combating glorification of Nazism, neo-Nazism and other practices that contribute to fuelling contemporary forms of racism”. The only nations to vote against it were the United States and Ukraine.

Almost every Russian knows that it was across the plains of Ukraine’s “borderland” that Hitler’s divisions swept from the west in 1941, bolstered by Ukraine’s Nazi cultists and collaborators. The result was more than 20 million Russian dead.

Setting aside the manoeuvres and cynicism of geopolitics, whomever the players, this historical memory is the driving force behind Russia’s respect-seeking, self-protective security proposals, which were published in Moscow in the week the UN voted 130-2 to outlaw Nazism. They are:

+ NATO guarantees that it will not deploy missiles in nations bordering Russia. (They are already in place from Slovenia to Romania, with Poland to follow)
+ NATO to stop military and naval exercises in nations and seas bordering Russia.
+ Ukraine will not become a member of NATO.
+ the West and Russia to sign a binding East-West security pact.
+ the landmark treaty between the US and Russia covering intermediate-range nuclear weapons to be restored. (The US abandoned it in 2019)

These amount to a comprehensive draft of a peace plan for all of post-war Europe and ought to be welcomed in the West. But who understands their significance in Britain? What they are told is that Putin is a pariah and a threat to Christendom.

Russian-speaking Ukrainians, under economic blockade by Kyiv for seven years, are fighting for their survival. The “massing” army we seldom hear about are the thirteen Ukrainian army brigades laying siege to Donbas: an estimated 150,000 troops. If they attack, the provocation to Russia will almost certainly mean war.

In 2015, brokered by the Germans and French, the presidents of Russia, Ukraine, Germany and France met in Minsk and signed an interim peace deal. Ukraine agreed to offer autonomy to Donbas, now the self declared republics of Donetsk and Luhansk.

The Minsk agreement has never been given a chance. In Britain, the line, amplified by Boris Johnson, is that Ukraine is being “dictated to” by world leaders. For its part, Britain is arming Ukraine and training its army.

Since the first Cold War, NATO has effectively marched right up to Russia’s most sensitive border having demonstrated its bloody aggression in Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and broken solemn promises to pull back. Having dragged European “allies” into American wars that do not concern them, the great unspoken is that NATO itself is the real threat to European security.

In Britain, a state and media xenophobia is triggered at the very mention of “Russia”. Mark the knee-jerk hostility with which the BBC reports Russia. Why? Is it because the restoration of imperial mythology demands, above all, a permanent enemy? Certainly, we deserve better."

 

[TemplarKormac]

I am really surprised you don't know this. It belongs in the scrap heap of history.

I agree, yet, we don't want our troops going to Ukraine. So what other options are left us?

Selling weapons to the Ukranians or rendering China and Russia ineffective in impeding the security machinations of the rest of Europe?

How do we resolve this issue without getting any of our troops killed? Is this not what you wanted?

 

[TemplarKormac]

NATO has been conducting exercises in UKRAINE, and has breaking the terms of the Minsk agreement! Why the hell do you think Russia is invading now?

Oh of course. But I am stating that the UN can make up for the lack of power NATO has, by enacting punitive measures against Russia and preemptive measures against the Chinese.

Once again, are we trying to avoid US boots on the ground or not?

 

[TemplarKormac]

Don't you have a clue what the hell is going on?!

I have plenty, but you are ignoring any suggestion or idea that could help us keep our troops from fighting in a useless war.

 

[TemplarKormac]

The US, Britain, NATO. . . none of them have been willing to peacefully negotiate a settlement. . . I KEEP TELLING YOU THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I keep telling you that I am not concerned with NATO. One UN member has attacked another, and as such, the UN has the power to deal with this matter now, not NATO.

Whatever NATO did is not relevant to what the US (and thereby the UN) can do now to keep American boots off Ukrainian soil. Now is a perfect time for the UN to fulfill its role as a peacekeeping apparatus.

 

[MisterBeale]

I agree, yet, we don't want our troops going to Ukraine. So what other options are left us?

Selling weapons to the Ukranians or rendering China and Russia ineffective in impeding the security machinations of the rest of Europe?

How do we resolve this issue without getting any of our troops killed? Is this not what you wanted?

WE NEGOTIATE.

This is what Russia wants;

+ NATO guarantees that it will not deploy missiles in nations bordering Russia. (They are already in place from Slovenia to Romania, with Poland to follow)
+ NATO to stop military and naval exercises in nations and seas bordering Russia.
+ Ukraine will not become a member of NATO.
+ the West and Russia to sign a binding East-West security pact.
+ the landmark treaty between the US and Russia covering intermediate-range nuclear weapons to be restored. (The US abandoned it in 2019)

We find a way to make it happen.

 

[TemplarKormac]

WE NEGOTIATE.

This is what Russia wants;



We find a way to make it happen.

The moment Russia invaded Ukraine, negotiations were taken off the table. By Russia. Simply put.

 

[MisterBeale]

Oh of course. But I am stating that the UN can make up for the lack of power NATO has, by enacting punitive measures against Russia and preemptive measures against the Chinese.

Once again, are we trying to avoid US boots on the ground or not?

Why?

Why does NATO, Britain, and the US get to use their military, and make up excuses to use force for imperialistic adventurism in support of our corporations in the pursuit of raw materials and capitol, or when we perceive threats to our national interests, but when other major powers do it, you think that all the other nations of the world are going to side with us?

And I fail to see why you want to ignore when we do it, calling it a straw man, but when our adversaries do it, well. . . then it is a good time to talk about the morality of the situation.

I have no patience for equivoquation, hypocracy, and digression, and for you to make the claim that it is off-topic and not relevant to point out, when we do it has no relavance to the issue is annoying as fuck. . . You have always had more integrity than that. I don't know why you refuse to see that the behavior of the US, NATO, and our allies here, especially when we are breaking treaties to CAUSE this behavior, are central to the issue here.

. . . I mean, it really is, idealistic, given you saw that wiki stub yourself. . . and YOU KNOW, the only way in hell that the UN would actually invoke that article, is in the case of genocide.

I boggles my mind that you think the UN could ever be used as such. . . but, why?

Why do you think it could?

 

[Rogue AI]

Why are we so focused on what the US did?

Peacekeeping isn't necessarily simply about engaging in diplomacy, is it? What good is diplomacy without deterrent action?

We have no legitimacy if we are equally guilty in the past. In context of the UN, China and Russia stood aside in many cases, or vetoed and we did it anyway. Why should they not expect the same when they act? In short, the UN is basically useless in regards to the P5, but does have some purpose on other issues. Kicking out Russia and silencing China doesn't help anything.

 

[MisterBeale]

I keep telling you that I am not concerned with NATO

. . and THAT, is why you haven't got a clue what is going on.

NATO is central to why there is a war going on here now.

The moment Russia invaded Ukraine, negotiations were taken off the table. By Russia. Simply put.

Those items were what Russia wanted for nearly a decade before it invaded.

When NATO continually broke the Minsk agreement, and it refused to come to the negotiating table with Ukraine? Ukraine, and the NATO allies ASKED for this war. . .

I think that is what you do not get.

. . . and now you want to find some way to put boots on the ground to repel this invasion that the US, Ukraine and NATO spent a decade asking for.

. . . and you actually think you could lawyer the UN into it????

 

[MisterBeale]

What's Happening in Ukraine? - Questions For Corbett​

What’s Happening in Ukraine? – Questions For Corbett #084 | The Corbett Report

www.corbettreport.com

 

[TemplarKormac]

Why?

Why does NATO, Britain, and the US get to use their military, and make up excuses to use force for imperialistic adventurism in support of our corporations in the pursuit of raw materials and capitol, or when we perceive threats to our national interests, but when other major powers do it, you think that all the other nations of the world are going to side with us?

So, it appears you think our "hypocrisy" should stop us from taking legitimate action this time around? How foolish.

 

[TemplarKormac]

We have no legitimacy if we are equally guilty in the past.

Our "guilt" should not impede any productive actions we could take now. Letting our past rule us and our hypocrisy restrain us will only put the world in further danger. Far more danger than any war of aggression the US has ever undertaken in the past. By orders of magnitude.

But fine. Let's let China and Russia run roughshod internationally, while we as the US winnow away what little remains of our legitimacy in the world by failing to employ preventative/preemptive non-lethal actions against current and future obstruction by so-called UN member states to peaceful solutions there for the taking.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Those items were what Russia wanted for nearly a decade before it invaded.

When NATO continually broke the Minsk agreement, and it refused to come to the negotiating table with Ukraine? Ukraine, and the NATO allies ASKED for this war. . .

I think that is what you do not get.

. . . and now you want to find some way to put boots on the ground to repel this invasion that the US, Ukraine and NATO spent a decade asking for.

. . . and you actually think you could lawyer the UN into it????

So?

What other arguments do you have other than "we're hypocrites and therefore should not act!" ?

Curious to know.

 

[TemplarKormac]

In short, the UN is basically useless in regards to the P5, but does have some purpose on other issues. Kicking out Russia and silencing China doesn't help anything.

So, our lack of legitimacy, you contend, dictates we do nothing.

We allow China and Russia to roam free in a peacekeeping body as hindrances to its legitimate efforts to keep the peace on the Eurasian continent and ultimately the rest of the world. Simply because we lack any legitimacy or moral credibility.

I can't accept that line of reasoning. We have tools we can use to put a stop to this as I have already laid out. It would achieve our ultimate goal of not putting one American foot on the ground in Ukraine.

However, it's all irrelevant in the end. My protestations mean nothing, nor do yours, Beal's, or anyone else's. The UN is going to act how it sees fit, much to the detriment of the rest of us.

I guess I am naive for hoping the UN could still carry out its original purpose. A saddening prospect, truly.

 

[candycorn]

Is anyone who posts here from the political right condemning Putin for murdering innocent people?

 

[AlexanderPK]

Calm the fuck down. Nobody who's sane will be hurt. Banderites will be annihilated and Ukraine returns to its normal life. Shame though Russia will have to channel its resources to restore broken industry and infrastructure.

 

[TemplarKormac]

I did run into this video, though. I'll be thinking on it when I'm not dog tired. Apart from the valid points he makes, if Ukraine is our fault, and we are truly hypocrites for our actions in the past, what's to say we can't enact remedies on both fronts?



Anyway, good night folks.