Putin is about to launch the Russian version of Shock & Awe on Ukraine

[Oldestyle]

Once again, 200,000 are fully trained military reservists much like our national guard. We called up NG reservists during the Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan conflicts.
100,000 are conscripts for non combat rear echelon jobs that require very little training, like truck drivers, cooks, clerks, warehouse and supply personal, etc. which frees up the regular army soldiers for front line combat.
As of now, deploying soldiers from other military bases to Ukraine isn't required, but that "could" change "if" they are needed.
Question: are you really this obtuse or just trolling? ...

You ask me if I'm "obtuse" when you claim that Russia is winning this war? Amusing, Sunni!

 

[Moonglow]

When is that Rusky shock and awe going to start, lol.

 

[Oldestyle]

When is that Rusky shock and awe going to start, lol.

As soon as they finish closing off the Russian borders so they can halt the frantic rush of Russian men fleeing the country so they don't have to go die in Ukraine!

 

[para bellum]

And Prigozhin can get his Wagner PMC convicts patched up!

 

[Sunni Man]

When is that Rusky shock and awe going to start, lol.

Well it started a couple of days ago when Russia started launching long range missiles and striking targets all over Ukraine, destroying communication centers, electric power plants, supply warehouses,, water treatment facilities, troop staging/training areas, bridges and other infrastructure, etc. The massive missile attack has been reported on by all the major media outlets.
This is the first stage, and will be followed up very soon by a huge Russian ground offensive when the cold freezing temperatures arrive in few weeks and the ground is frozen solid. The Russian army excels at cold weather fighting because its soldiers and vehicles are fully equipped to deal with it.

 

[alexa]

With all due respect, Alexa? NATO isn't who invaded a sovereign nation killing thousands of civilians with rocket and artillery barrages! That was Putin and the Russians. Putin's actions in this conflict have been criminal and he simply doesn't care. He threatens the world with nuclear weapons because his conventional forces are losing badly.

With all due respect Oldestyle if it were as simple as one country invading another with all their might for no reason, then of course it would be unlikely that they would not have come in with all due force. But it quite simply is not as simple as that.

You have to go back to before Germany was reunited and the Russians only giving their agreement to this once the US/Nato had given their word that there would be no further escalation of Nato to countries further to the east than Germany. This was the assurance given and there are records on this. On Russia's side this is the problem and has been for decades now. The US/Nato worked with Ukraine towards it joining NATO from the 90's and there are also records of this. NATO was created to fight the USSR and arguably had no more purpose once it ended but instead the old Warsaw pact countries were encouraged to join going against the Promise of the US Government to Russia in the 90's. Russia saw itself being surrounded by NATO states and when it got to Georgia and Ukraine the US saying they would be included in NATO in 2008, it was just too much for Russia. They told you this was something which was going to result in them becoming involved. Lavrov 2008 is what I have seen. The US simply carried on, getting involved in manipulating the Ukranian Government.

We have a long time incursion by the United States/Nato against agreements on German Unification. One which I have heard made all of Russia's Military and Intelligence feel very ill at ease.

The US did not believe it was important to bother about Russia's opinion at all. It just carried on doing what it wanted going against it's word.

So that is part of what led to Russia coming into Ukraine and that is not something as simplistic as them just deciding one day they wanted more territory.

But that is only half. For the rest we need to look at the US involvement in the ousting of Ukraine's President in 2013 and Victoria Nuland telling the Ukranians what Politicians they would need put in what place in the new Parliament, the Parliament banning the speaking of Russian, though that only last two days or two weeks, the 8 year war with Russia speaking Ukranian's in the East which has resulted in tens of thousands dead on both sides, the massacre in Odessa, the fact that Russia speaking Ukranians are now treated as second hand citizens with not the same rights as Ukranian ones and the fact that there was an increase in fighting before gives you an idea why Russia came in.

Oddstyle

As for blaming "mud" for his armor being bogged down?

He didn't. I did. I know nothing of military.
Oddstyle

His tanks are being destroyed by the Javelin anti tank systems that Ukraine has been given.

Well they weren't at the time I was thinking about. You know I am sure these Javelins are really good but I have also heard some things which do not really fit in with the presumption that whatever Russia does is 'war crimes' and whatever Ukraine does, heroic. I have heard of Ukraine killing just ordinary citizens in their cars trying to escape including children.
Oddstyle

Frozen ground won't stop that from happening.

I suspect frozen ground is going to make a big difference simply because that American Military man was so certain of that and that they would be waiting till that time to send them in under the appointment of that man whose humanitarianism was not given much credit in Syria. That would be doing what has been said. Having been 'gentle' for any war until the recent air attacks, illustrating what shock and awe was to the US in Iraq from the work of the Russians in Ukraine.

Oddstyle

The truth is...whenever Russian troops have had to fight in close proximity to Ukrainian forces...they are losing badly. Morale is awful on the Russian side because their troops don't want to be in Ukraine fighting against people who were their allies a few short years ago!

Well so you say and as I said I do not know. I will wait to see developments, but I have heard no fat lady signing.

What I will say is I fear there is going to be something brutal. I also know the US/NATO side had plenty of warning it could come to this and totally ignored it, indeed took steps to make it more likely all the time. That is why it is my belief that this is nothing about helping Ukraine who apparently as good as had a peace agreement in April but much more about the US wanting to prove to Russia how much better than them it is.

 

[José]

Originally posted by Alexa
With all due respect Oldestyle if it were as simple as one country invading another with all their might for no reason, then of course it would be unlikely that they would not have come in with all due force. But it quite simply is not as simple as that.

This is where the conversation hits a concrete wall, Alexa.

In their minds the war in Ukraine IS as simple as that.

With few exceptions, most people here consider the batshit crazy western policy of living in an alternate universe where the Soviet Union was never dismantled, the mind-boggling policy of keeping a completely disfunctional, jurassic fossil of the Cold War named NATO alive in 2022 and expanding it to surrond the borders of european Russia to add insult to injury, is not only perfectly reasonable but also has nothing to do with the war in Ukraine.

They support keeping a dinosaur from the Cold War that lost all purpose 30 years ago on life support for all eternity because they are dinosaurs from the Cold War themselves (even if the disastrous policies of this dinosaur start threatening human civilization, no less).

So you're basically trying to convince people that what they consider a non-issue has any relevance to the conversation.

Any debate between two theologians about the nature of God has to be based on the mutually agreed belief that God exists. Without this basic, tacit agreement no theological debate is possible.

Any debate about Russia's military reaction to NATO expansion has to be based on the underlying assumption that military alliances treating a given nation as an enemy without any justification whatsoever is at least controversial. Otherwise you might just as well be debating the war in Ukraine with your pet (if you have one).

Whether you like it or not, the warped mind of the super patriotic american clown has an unshakeable belief that the only country in the world that cannot have their borders surrounded by a hostile military alliance are the United States of America.

 

[alexa]

Well it started a couple of days ago when Russia started launching long range missiles and striking targets all over Ukraine, destroying communication centers, electric power plants, supply warehouses,, water treatment facilities, troop staging/training areas, bridges and other infrastructure, etc. The massive missile attack has been reported on by all the major media outlets.

I really do not know what weapons Russia has but it seems it has recently got some new ones which may have been a help

In addition to the new wave of mobilization needed to fortify the frontlines in Ukraine ahead of further offensive operations, the Russian army started employing the Iranian-made Shahed-136 drones on the eastern front.

Dubbed Geran-2, the Russian army used the newly acquired suicide drones to target Ukrainian infrastructure in Odessa, Nikolaev, Dnipropetrovsk, and many other regions.

The successful use of the suicide drone by the Russian army has prompted Kyiv to expel the Iranian diplomatic representation in less than a month since its first documented use.

On 23 September, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky announced that the accreditation for the Iranian ambassador to Kiev will be revoked, “in response to such an unfriendly act by Tehran.”

Russian Jews look to migrate to Israel in face of Putin’s mobilization

Many former Israeli army soldiers may have to be drafted into the Russian Armed Forces to serve in Ukraine

thecradle.co

 

[georgephillip]

I saw that film, where's Mini Me?

Alleppo, maybe?

28 Before-And-After Pics Reveal What War Did To The Largest City In Syria

"Surovikin had combat experience in the 1990s conflicts in Tajikistan and Chechnya and, more recently, in Syria, where Moscow intervened in 2015 on the side of Bashar al-Assad’s government. He was accused of overseeing a brutal bombardment that destroyed much of the city of Aleppo."

‘Shrinking operation’: Russia names new Ukraine war commander

 

[para bellum]

Whether you like it or not, the warped mind of the super patriotic american clown has an unshakeable belief that the only country in the world that cannot have their borders surrounded by a hostile military alliance are the United States of America.

If NATO is such a hostile military threat, why has Putin emptied out the bases near the NATO borders and deployed those formations to Ukraine?

Why is the entire Poland-Lithuania border with Belarus essentially undefended?

What threat has NATO made against Russia?

NATO does not court new members. They have to apply for membership and jump through all kinds of hoops to get in. It takes years, and involves very large structural reforms for those countries who join NATO. Civilian control of the military, standards of training and equipping, democratic civil societies, etc.

So as not to strain your brain, I will answer the question about Belarus. Belarus cannot defend itself from from Poland, because that would also mean Belarus could defend itself from Russia. Putin won't allow that.

 

[José]

Originally posted by para bellum
NATO does not court new members. They have to apply for membership and jump through all kinds of hoops to get in.

The only hoop candidates have to jump is the geopolical interest of the United States otherwise Turkey would have been expelled a long time ago. The same geopolitical interest that led the alliance to absorb 80% of Eastern Europe in order to surround Russia.

People ask what threat NATO pose to Russia and that the very fact that Russia opposes the expansion proves the country is a threat.

Lemme see if I understand... the country being militarily surrounded proves its "aggressive" intentions by opposing being encircled and the countries actually doing the surrounding prove their "peaceful" intentions by extending its military alliance to Russia's border.

This is the most basic principles of logic being turned upside down.

 

[José]

I'm not opposed to the existence of a security plan that guarantees the safety of America's european allies, para bellum.

I oppose the surreal, absurd idea of a military alliance that "protects" Europe from a geopolitical scenario that ceased to exist 30 years ago!! How insane is that??

I won't even say Europe needs, I will say the world needs because nuclear conflict is everybody business (no matter how remote you consider this threat to be, by its own nature it's still extremely serious).

The WORLD needs a new pan-european security arrangement (preferably including Russia) not an aberration of thought like NATO that "protects" Europe from a political entity that ceased to exist 30 years ago!!

The absurdity of a 21th century Europe "protecting" itself from the geopolitical reality of another century brought everything you can imagine to Europe (militarism, war, refugees, economic crisis, you name it), everything but peace.

If you want a security arrangement for Europe that brings the world closer to a nuclear conflict at least make sure this arrangement reflects the present geopolitical scenario and a real threat not an imaginary one.

Destroying human civilization for nothing is more than a little bit over the top, in my book.

 

[georgephillip]

I'm amused by your take on things, George! The Russians are losing territory all over Ukraine and now they're going to try and stem those losses with conscripts that want to fight even less than the regular troops that are now getting their asses kicked by a highly motivated and energized Ukrainian military fighting for their homeland!

Those "conscripts" include 300,000 former members of the Russian armed forces and 70,000 first-time volunteers willing to risk their lives to prevent a hostile military alliance digging in on their western border. None of this would be happening absent the US fomenting an illegal coup in Kiev in 2014

Those "highly motivated and energized" Ukrainians were NOT fighting regular Russian troops for the most part, and they lost 100,000 dead with 300,000 to 400,000 wounded according to Col Douglas Macgregor. If those numbers are close to reality, it might explain recent reports of NATO paying Al-Qaeda and ISIS fighters to ply their trade in Ukraine?

 

[georgephillip]

Putin thinks he can cow the Ukrainian people by targeting civilian targets. It's a bad miscalculation. What he's managed to do is make the average Ukrainian HATE Russia with a burning passion! Russia is going to lose this war. The only question now is how badly.

Do you think the average Japanese HATED the US with a burning passion AFTER the fire bombing of Tokyo? How did their hatred affect what happened next Ukraine made significant gains against territory defended by a small number of irregular Russian fighters and paid a huge price in dead and wounded. The only way Zelensky manages a stalemate is if NATO gets involved on the ground and that will trigger WWIII. Will you find that amusing too?

 

[Oldestyle]

With all due respect Oldestyle if it were as simple as one country invading another with all their might for no reason, then of course it would be unlikely that they would not have come in with all due force. But it quite simply is not as simple as that.

You have to go back to before Germany was reunited and the Russians only giving their agreement to this once the US/Nato had given their word that there would be no further escalation of Nato to countries further to the east than Germany. This was the assurance given and there are records on this. On Russia's side this is the problem and has been for decades now. The US/Nato worked with Ukraine towards it joining NATO from the 90's and there are also records of this. NATO was created to fight the USSR and arguably had no more purpose once it ended but instead the old Warsaw pact countries were encouraged to join going against the Promise of the US Government to Russia in the 90's. Russia saw itself being surrounded by NATO states and when it got to Georgia and Ukraine the US saying they would be included in NATO in 2008, it was just too much for Russia. They told you this was something which was going to result in them becoming involved. Lavrov 2008 is what I have seen. The US simply carried on, getting involved in manipulating the Ukranian Government.

We have a long time incursion by the United States/Nato against agreements on German Unification. One which I have heard made all of Russia's Military and Intelligence feel very ill at ease.

The US did not believe it was important to bother about Russia's opinion at all. It just carried on doing what it wanted going against it's word.

So that is part of what led to Russia coming into Ukraine and that is not something as simplistic as them just deciding one day they wanted more territory.

But that is only half. For the rest we need to look at the US involvement in the ousting of Ukraine's President in 2013 and Victoria Nuland telling the Ukranians what Politicians they would need put in what place in the new Parliament, the Parliament banning the speaking of Russian, though that only last two days or two weeks, the 8 year war with Russia speaking Ukranian's in the East which has resulted in tens of thousands dead on both sides, the massacre in Odessa, the fact that Russia speaking Ukranians are now treated as second hand citizens with not the same rights as Ukranian ones and the fact that there was an increase in fighting before gives you an idea why Russia came in.

Oddstyle

He didn't. I did. I know nothing of military.
Oddstyle

Well they weren't at the time I was thinking about. You know I am sure these Javelins are really good but I have also heard some things which do not really fit in with the presumption that whatever Russia does is 'war crimes' and whatever Ukraine does, heroic. I have heard of Ukraine killing just ordinary citizens in their cars trying to escape including children.
Oddstyle


I suspect frozen ground is going to make a big difference simply because that American Military man was so certain of that and that they would be waiting till that time to send them in under the appointment of that man whose humanitarianism was not given much credit in Syria. That would be doing what has been said. Having been 'gentle' for any war until the recent air attacks, illustrating what shock and awe was to the US in Iraq from the work of the Russians in Ukraine.

Oddstyle


Well so you say and as I said I do not know. I will wait to see developments, but I have heard no fat lady signing.

What I will say is I fear there is going to be something brutal. I also know the US/NATO side had plenty of warning it could come to this and totally ignored it, indeed took steps to make it more likely all the time. That is why it is my belief that this is nothing about helping Ukraine who apparently as good as had a peace agreement in April but much more about the US wanting to prove to Russia how much better than them it is.

You have a rather slanted view of European history, Alexa! While there has been a connection between what is now Ukraine and Russia dating back to before the Mongols conquered much of what is now Ukraine...the way that the Soviets treated the Ukrainians during the Holodomor Famine was so despicable (basically attempting to starve the Ukrainians to death) that it showed rather pointedly that Russia has never viewed Ukraine as an equal but rather sees them as a subservient "territory" of Russia!

As for NATO? NATO was created to defend Europe from the Soviet Union not to ATTACK the USSR! NATO has never attacked the Soviet Union or the newly formed Russia despite constant attempts by the USSR and now Russia to expand its influence.

 

[Oldestyle]

Do you think the average Japanese HATED the US with a burning passion AFTER the fire bombing of Tokyo? How did their hatred affect what happened next Ukraine made significant gains against territory defended by a small number of irregular Russian fighters and paid a huge price in dead and wounded. The only way Zelensky manages a stalemate is if NATO gets involved on the ground and that will trigger WWIII. Will you find that amusing too?

I don't know where you get your news from, George but it's almost comical. Putin is in serious trouble in the Ukraine and that trouble will not be alleviated by sending poorly trained and completely unmotivated troops to fight there. The more Russians he sacrifices...the quicker his demise will come.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Do you think the average Japanese HATED the US with a burning passion AFTER the fire bombing of Tokyo? How did their hatred affect what happened next Ukraine made significant gains against territory defended by a small number of irregular Russian fighters and paid a huge price in dead and wounded. The only way Zelensky manages a stalemate is if NATO gets involved on the ground and that will trigger WWIII. Will you find that amusing too?

It is too late for a stalemate. Russia is losing the war and there is no way Russia can reverse the trend. Russia will either agree to withdraw from Ukraine or be driven out, and then Ukraine will become a member of NATO but by formally accepting these conditions, Russia can try to negotiate some relief from the sanctions.

 

[georgephillip]

I don't know where you get your news from, George but it's almost comical. Putin is in serious trouble in the Ukraine and that trouble will not be alleviated by sending poorly trained and completely unmotivated troops to fight there. The more Russians he sacrifices...the quicker his demise will come.

What percentage of Russia's standing army is currently deployed to Ukraine?

 

[georgephillip]

It is too late for a stalemate. Russia is losing the war and there is no way Russia can reverse the trend. Russia will either agree to withdraw from Ukraine or be driven out, and then Ukraine will become a member of NATO but by formally accepting these conditions, Russia can try to negotiate some relief from the sanctions.

I don't see any evidence for that Ukrainian victory.
If you have some, show it.

 

[Ringo]

Three things can be watched for a long time:
A burning wood in the fireplace,
ocean waves rushing ashore
and echelons with russian military equipment moving towards Ukraine...