Reality and Morality

[Inevitable]

Good questions. I learned truths from the teachings of God the Holy Spirit.

And if someone else says the same thing...but disagrees with you..what then?

It depends on the disagreement.

I know that faith in Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation.

And someone that believes that salvation is found through the word of Allah, as revealed by his prophet Mohammad......deluded by the devil, are they?

It's the standard nowhere end to all religious conversations. Where it becomes so incredibly circular it's impossible to have any further discussion.

He has simply presented the argument that you are wrong because he is right.

It is the most simple form of begging the question.

The only thing left for him to do is prove that he is right. You and I both know he can't. The argument is over you have won.

And that's my point. Even using the logic of religion, almost all theists are self deluded. As almost all religions are mutually exclusive. So if one is right, all others are wrong. We have only 3 logical conclusions.

1) That god tells different people different things.
2) That only one sect is correct about the 'will of god' and all other theists are self deluded.
3) That no one is corrrect about the will of god.

The first conclusion obliterates the foundation of 'universal truth'. The second means that its ridiculously unlikely that any given mutually exclusive sect is right. The third means that no theist knows the will of God.

Which means, AT BEST, its ridiculously unlikely that any given sect is correct. And far, far more likely that they are wrong. And entirely possible that all of them are wrong. And that's if we accept the axioms 1) There is a god 2) he has a plan for us 3) that plan is knowable.

And none of those axioms are necessarily true either. Rendering theism as a whole a very, very poor bet for universal truth.

I agree with number three.

Universal truth really has nothing to do with theism.

 

[Inevitable]

And if someone else says the same thing...but disagrees with you..what then?

It depends on the disagreement.

I know that faith in Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation.

And someone that believes that salvation is found through the word of Allah, as revealed by his prophet Mohammad......deluded by the devil, are they?

It's the standard nowhere end to all religious conversations. Where it becomes so incredibly circular it's impossible to have any further discussion.

He has simply presented the argument that you are wrong because he is right.

It is the most simple form of begging the question.

The only thing left for him to do is prove that he is right. You and I both know he can't. The argument is over you have won.

And that's my point. Even using the logic of religion, almost all theists are self deluded. As almost all religions are mutually exclusive. So if one is right, all others are wrong. We have only 3 logical conclusions.

1) That god tells different people different things.
2) That only one sect is correct about the 'will of god' and all other theists are self deluded.
3) That no one is corrrect about the will of god.

The first conclusion obliterates the foundation of 'universal truth'. The second means that its ridiculously unlikely that any given mutually exclusive sect is right. The third means that no theist knows the will of God.

Which means, AT BEST, its ridiculously unlikely that any given sect is correct. And far, far more likely that they are wrong. And entirely possible that all of them are wrong. And that's if we accept the axioms 1) There is a god 2) he has a plan for us 3) that plan is knowable.

And none of those axioms are necessarily true either. Rendering theism as a whole a very, very poor bet for universal truth.

It is simple. One needs to have faith in Jesus Christ and depend on Him for the salvation. Jesus Christ is the only way for men's salvation from eternal punishment of their sins in Hell.

God is unchangeable in nature, therefore #1 is impossible. #3 is wrong because God revealed himself in the Bible.

God wills is that whomever truly believe in His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ, shall be saved.

This isn't relevant to the discussion. Your beliefs in how God reveals himself are no basis to say something is wrong.

This begs the doxastic question.

 

[MaxGrit]

Good questions. I learned truths from the teachings of God the Holy Spirit.

God blessed me with knowledge of Jesus Christ and the Bible.

The reality is that many people are deluded by the devil.

Did you really? You are justifying an immoral position with religion. You are basically saying that people who disagree with you, not God, are deluded by the devil. Thus attempting to justify the dismissal of any argument you disagree with. This begs the doxastic question. The conclusion that everybody that disagrees with your position is deluded by the devil, is dependant on your position that you are in agreement with God. Speaking from a Christian stand point it isn't possible that you are in agreement with God. Romans 3:23 you fall short of the grace of God. You are a sinner and you live the life of a sinner. If you claim that you don't you are then claiming you are Christ, because he is the only one without sin. So because of your sin nature you live in opposition to God and really depend on his good graces to be forgiven through the savior.

Based on your postings I would say that yes you believe in God, but you believe yourself to be either a prophet, a messiah, or a demigod, because you proclaim your words to be of God. It's a common mistake among Christians.

I know the truth. Therefore, it would be immoral to lie to others on what I know is true. Ultimately it is up to God to reveal truths to the elect. I simply attempt to let people know the truth about Jesus Christ, as revealed by God and his Word.

Keep in mind that God is truth. Therefore, I always strive to learn what is truly true.

You claim to know the truth, can you prove it?

Everything else in your post isn't relevant unless you can prove your claim.

God only requires that I speak the truth about His son, Jesus Christ. It's not my job to prove the truth. God does that part and He shall prove the truth in His Word to whomever He chooses.

I think you are misunderstanding. Prove you are speaking the truth about his son. I doubt you are, first you are a sinner and are against God by your vary nature and your own admission.

Basically you amount to little more than a street preacher claiming that the end is nigh.

Sorry, that's not my job. That task God leaves to Himself. You should be asking God.

 

[Inevitable]

Did you really? You are justifying an immoral position with religion. You are basically saying that people who disagree with you, not God, are deluded by the devil. Thus attempting to justify the dismissal of any argument you disagree with. This begs the doxastic question. The conclusion that everybody that disagrees with your position is deluded by the devil, is dependant on your position that you are in agreement with God. Speaking from a Christian stand point it isn't possible that you are in agreement with God. Romans 3:23 you fall short of the grace of God. You are a sinner and you live the life of a sinner. If you claim that you don't you are then claiming you are Christ, because he is the only one without sin. So because of your sin nature you live in opposition to God and really depend on his good graces to be forgiven through the savior.

Based on your postings I would say that yes you believe in God, but you believe yourself to be either a prophet, a messiah, or a demigod, because you proclaim your words to be of God. It's a common mistake among Christians.

I know the truth. Therefore, it would be immoral to lie to others on what I know is true. Ultimately it is up to God to reveal truths to the elect. I simply attempt to let people know the truth about Jesus Christ, as revealed by God and his Word.

Keep in mind that God is truth. Therefore, I always strive to learn what is truly true.

You claim to know the truth, can you prove it?

Everything else in your post isn't relevant unless you can prove your claim.

God only requires that I speak the truth about His son, Jesus Christ. It's not my job to prove the truth. God does that part and He shall prove the truth in His Word to whomever He chooses.

I think you are misunderstanding. Prove you are speaking the truth about his son. I doubt you are, first you are a sinner and are against God by your vary nature and your own admission.

Basically you amount to little more than a street preacher claiming that the end is nigh.

Sorry, that's not my job. That task God leaves to Himself. You should be asking God.

Than your argument is illogical. The burden of proof is on you. If you fail or shift the burden to your notion of God, you have failed to make a logical argument.

So far my argument is logically sound and yours isn't. Logic dictates that my argument is correct.

 

[MaxGrit]

And if someone else says the same thing...but disagrees with you..what then?

It depends on the disagreement.

I know that faith in Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation.

And someone that believes that salvation is found through the word of Allah, as revealed by his prophet Mohammad......deluded by the devil, are they?

It's the standard nowhere end to all religious conversations. Where it becomes so incredibly circular it's impossible to have any further discussion.

He has simply presented the argument that you are wrong because he is right.

It is the most simple form of begging the question.

The only thing left for him to do is prove that he is right. You and I both know he can't. The argument is over you have won.

And that's my point. Even using the logic of religion, almost all theists are self deluded. As almost all religions are mutually exclusive. So if one is right, all others are wrong. We have only 3 logical conclusions.

1) That god tells different people different things.
2) That only one sect is correct about the 'will of god' and all other theists are self deluded.
3) That no one is corrrect about the will of god.

The first conclusion obliterates the foundation of 'universal truth'. The second means that its ridiculously unlikely that any given mutually exclusive sect is right. The third means that no theist knows the will of God.

Which means, AT BEST, its ridiculously unlikely that any given sect is correct. And far, far more likely that they are wrong. And entirely possible that all of them are wrong. And that's if we accept the axioms 1) There is a god 2) he has a plan for us 3) that plan is knowable.

And none of those axioms are necessarily true either. Rendering theism as a whole a very, very poor bet for universal truth.

I agree with number three.

Universal truth really has nothing to do with theism.

LoL. It's impossible to be certain with #3. I doubt you know what others know, which makes your claim of universal error to be based on pure fantasy. LoL.

 

[Inevitable]

It depends on the disagreement.

I know that faith in Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation.

And someone that believes that salvation is found through the word of Allah, as revealed by his prophet Mohammad......deluded by the devil, are they?

It's the standard nowhere end to all religious conversations. Where it becomes so incredibly circular it's impossible to have any further discussion.

He has simply presented the argument that you are wrong because he is right.

It is the most simple form of begging the question.

The only thing left for him to do is prove that he is right. You and I both know he can't. The argument is over you have won.

And that's my point. Even using the logic of religion, almost all theists are self deluded. As almost all religions are mutually exclusive. So if one is right, all others are wrong. We have only 3 logical conclusions.

1) That god tells different people different things.
2) That only one sect is correct about the 'will of god' and all other theists are self deluded.
3) That no one is corrrect about the will of god.

The first conclusion obliterates the foundation of 'universal truth'. The second means that its ridiculously unlikely that any given mutually exclusive sect is right. The third means that no theist knows the will of God.

Which means, AT BEST, its ridiculously unlikely that any given sect is correct. And far, far more likely that they are wrong. And entirely possible that all of them are wrong. And that's if we accept the axioms 1) There is a god 2) he has a plan for us 3) that plan is knowable.

And none of those axioms are necessarily true either. Rendering theism as a whole a very, very poor bet for universal truth.

I agree with number three.

Universal truth really has nothing to do with theism.

LoL. It's impossible to be certain with #3. I doubt you know what others know, which makes your claim of universal error to be based on pure fantasy. LoL.

If somebody knows something but cannot prove what they know is true it is simply speculation.

So the only possible one that can be true is number three unless you can prove otherwise.

 

[MaxGrit]

I know the truth. Therefore, it would be immoral to lie to others on what I know is true. Ultimately it is up to God to reveal truths to the elect. I simply attempt to let people know the truth about Jesus Christ, as revealed by God and his Word.

Keep in mind that God is truth. Therefore, I always strive to learn what is truly true.

You claim to know the truth, can you prove it?

Everything else in your post isn't relevant unless you can prove your claim.

God only requires that I speak the truth about His son, Jesus Christ. It's not my job to prove the truth. God does that part and He shall prove the truth in His Word to whomever He chooses.

I think you are misunderstanding. Prove you are speaking the truth about his son. I doubt you are, first you are a sinner and are against God by your vary nature and your own admission.

Basically you amount to little more than a street preacher claiming that the end is nigh.

Sorry, that's not my job. That task God leaves to Himself. You should be asking God.

Than your argument is illogical. The burden of proof is on you. If you fail or shift the burden to your notion of God, you have failed to make a logical argument.

So far my argument is logically sound and yours isn't. Logic dictates that my argument is correct.

LoL.

 

[MaxGrit]

And someone that believes that salvation is found through the word of Allah, as revealed by his prophet Mohammad......deluded by the devil, are they?

It's the standard nowhere end to all religious conversations. Where it becomes so incredibly circular it's impossible to have any further discussion.

He has simply presented the argument that you are wrong because he is right.

It is the most simple form of begging the question.

The only thing left for him to do is prove that he is right. You and I both know he can't. The argument is over you have won.

And that's my point. Even using the logic of religion, almost all theists are self deluded. As almost all religions are mutually exclusive. So if one is right, all others are wrong. We have only 3 logical conclusions.

1) That god tells different people different things.
2) That only one sect is correct about the 'will of god' and all other theists are self deluded.
3) That no one is corrrect about the will of god.

The first conclusion obliterates the foundation of 'universal truth'. The second means that its ridiculously unlikely that any given mutually exclusive sect is right. The third means that no theist knows the will of God.

Which means, AT BEST, its ridiculously unlikely that any given sect is correct. And far, far more likely that they are wrong. And entirely possible that all of them are wrong. And that's if we accept the axioms 1) There is a god 2) he has a plan for us 3) that plan is knowable.

And none of those axioms are necessarily true either. Rendering theism as a whole a very, very poor bet for universal truth.

I agree with number three.

Universal truth really has nothing to do with theism.

LoL. It's impossible to be certain with #3. I doubt you know what others know, which makes your claim of universal error to be based on pure fantasy. LoL.

If somebody knows something but cannot prove what they know is true it is simply speculation.

So the only possible one that can be true is number three unless you can prove otherwise.

Sigh. Would you please prove that the following statement is true : "if somebody knows something, but cannot prove what they know is true, it is simply speculation"

 

[MaxGrit]

FYI, logic has nothing to do with proving truths. A logical statement is either logically true or logically false. This logical T/F aspect is independent from the conclusion and its truth claim.

A logically true statement with true premises yields a logically true conclusion that is true.

A logically true statement with false premises yields a logically true conclusion that is false.

Take care.

 

[Inevitable]

FYI, logic has nothing to do with proving truths. A logical statement is either logically true or logically false. This logical T/F aspect is independent from the conclusion and its truth claim.

A logically true statement with true premises yields a logically true conclusion that is true.

A logically true statement with false premises yields a logically true conclusion that is false.

Take care.

In the absence of proof the most logical conclusion is probably true.

Your position depends on fallacy, begging the question, ad hominem, and shifting the burden of proof onto a very subjective source.

I can say quite definitively that your position is illogical. My position is grounded in logic. The probability is that I am correct.

 

[Inevitable]

It's the standard nowhere end to all religious conversations. Where it becomes so incredibly circular it's impossible to have any further discussion.

He has simply presented the argument that you are wrong because he is right.

It is the most simple form of begging the question.

The only thing left for him to do is prove that he is right. You and I both know he can't. The argument is over you have won.

And that's my point. Even using the logic of religion, almost all theists are self deluded. As almost all religions are mutually exclusive. So if one is right, all others are wrong. We have only 3 logical conclusions.

1) That god tells different people different things.
2) That only one sect is correct about the 'will of god' and all other theists are self deluded.
3) That no one is corrrect about the will of god.

The first conclusion obliterates the foundation of 'universal truth'. The second means that its ridiculously unlikely that any given mutually exclusive sect is right. The third means that no theist knows the will of God.

Which means, AT BEST, its ridiculously unlikely that any given sect is correct. And far, far more likely that they are wrong. And entirely possible that all of them are wrong. And that's if we accept the axioms 1) There is a god 2) he has a plan for us 3) that plan is knowable.

And none of those axioms are necessarily true either. Rendering theism as a whole a very, very poor bet for universal truth.

I agree with number three.

Universal truth really has nothing to do with theism.

LoL. It's impossible to be certain with #3. I doubt you know what others know, which makes your claim of universal error to be based on pure fantasy. LoL.

If somebody knows something but cannot prove what they know is true it is simply speculation.

So the only possible one that can be true is number three unless you can prove otherwise.

Sigh. Would you please prove that the following statement is true : "if somebody knows something, but cannot prove what they know is true, it is simply speculation"

I know for a fact that the moon is man made.

 

[Inevitable]

You claim to know the truth, can you prove it?

Everything else in your post isn't relevant unless you can prove your claim.

God only requires that I speak the truth about His son, Jesus Christ. It's not my job to prove the truth. God does that part and He shall prove the truth in His Word to whomever He chooses.

I think you are misunderstanding. Prove you are speaking the truth about his son. I doubt you are, first you are a sinner and are against God by your vary nature and your own admission.

Basically you amount to little more than a street preacher claiming that the end is nigh.

Sorry, that's not my job. That task God leaves to Himself. You should be asking God.

Than your argument is illogical. The burden of proof is on you. If you fail or shift the burden to your notion of God, you have failed to make a logical argument.

So far my argument is logically sound and yours isn't. Logic dictates that my argument is correct.

LoL.

You have failed to point out the illogical components of my argument, or any thing which suggests my argument is illogical.

When you said my position was insane you failed to explain why, thus you have logical fallacy called ad hominem. When You insisted what you said was true yet failed to prove it that is logical fallacy of shifting the burden of proof. When you say that what you think is truth because God is truth and therefore what you perceive God to be is truth, that is circular logic and is a fallacy.

Now I am not saying that just because your argument is rife with fallacy that your beliefs are fallacies, just that your argument is illogical and therefore not convincing.

You have accused me of being illogical and insane, yet you fail to articulate why. Just saying something doesn't make it true. That is relativism and if I remember correctly you falsely accused me of that.

So if you have something beyond a teenage girl's response I will listen. But effectively you have lost this argument.

 

[MaxGrit]

LoL.

You are an insane atheist who's too stupid to see obvious truths and errors. Your confusion and difficulty in understanding why you're insane is a mark of your atheist insanity.

You continually demonstrate poor reading comprehension. Your lack of intelligence makes it a lot harder for you to think critically. It is apparent that you are simply too stupid to understand obvious concepts without lengthy explanations on my part.

Let me point out something obvious: I'm not in an argument with you.

I already told you twice that it's not my job to convince. Are you simply too stupid to understand that?

 

[Inevitable]

LoL.

You are an insane atheist who's too stupid to see obvious truths and errors. Your confusion and difficulty in understanding why you're insane is a mark of your atheist insanity.

You continually demonstrate poor reading comprehension. Your lack of intelligence makes it a lot harder for you to think critically. It is apparent that you are simply too stupid to understand obvious concepts without lengthy explanations on my part.

Let me point out something obvious: I'm not in an argument with you.

I already told you twice that it's not my job to convince. Are you simply too stupid to understand that?

I know, everybody who disagrees with you is a big stupid doo doo head.

Great argument. Very sound and logical.

 

[MaxGrit]

LoL.

You are an insane atheist who's too stupid to see obvious truths and errors. Your confusion and difficulty in understanding why you're insane is a mark of your atheist insanity.

You continually demonstrate poor reading comprehension. Your lack of intelligence makes it a lot harder for you to think critically. It is apparent that you are simply too stupid to understand obvious concepts without lengthy explanations on my part.

Let me point out something obvious: I'm not in an argument with you.

I already told you twice that it's not my job to convince. Are you simply too stupid to understand that?

I know, everybody who disagrees with you is a big stupid doo doo head.

Great argument. Very sound and logical.

Yep. I know with absolute certainly that I am correct about certain issues.

 

[Inevitable]

LoL.

You are an insane atheist who's too stupid to see obvious truths and errors. Your confusion and difficulty in understanding why you're insane is a mark of your atheist insanity.

You continually demonstrate poor reading comprehension. Your lack of intelligence makes it a lot harder for you to think critically. It is apparent that you are simply too stupid to understand obvious concepts without lengthy explanations on my part.

Let me point out something obvious: I'm not in an argument with you.

I already told you twice that it's not my job to convince. Are you simply too stupid to understand that?

I know, everybody who disagrees with you is a big stupid doo doo head.

Great argument. Very sound and logical.

Yep. I know with absolute certainly that I am correct about certain issues.

LoL.

You are an insane atheist who's too stupid to see obvious truths and errors. Your confusion and difficulty in understanding why you're insane is a mark of your atheist insanity.

You continually demonstrate poor reading comprehension. Your lack of intelligence makes it a lot harder for you to think critically. It is apparent that you are simply too stupid to understand obvious concepts without lengthy explanations on my part.

Let me point out something obvious: I'm not in an argument with you.

I already told you twice that it's not my job to convince. Are you simply too stupid to understand that?

I know, everybody who disagrees with you is a big stupid doo doo head.

Great argument. Very sound and logical.

Yep. I know with absolute certainly that I am correct about certain issues.

And that is of no use in discussion. So why enter a discussion if you aren't willing to discuss anything?

Morality isn't obedience and it never will be.

 

[Inevitable]

LoL.

You are an insane atheist who's too stupid to see obvious truths and errors. Your confusion and difficulty in understanding why you're insane is a mark of your atheist insanity.

You continually demonstrate poor reading comprehension. Your lack of intelligence makes it a lot harder for you to think critically. It is apparent that you are simply too stupid to understand obvious concepts without lengthy explanations on my part.

Let me point out something obvious: I'm not in an argument with you.

I already told you twice that it's not my job to convince. Are you simply too stupid to understand that?

I know, everybody who disagrees with you is a big stupid doo doo head.

Great argument. Very sound and logical.

Yep. I know with absolute certainly that I am correct about certain issues.

The point is, believe whatever you want. But without evidence and support for your beliefs expect mockery and derision

 

[Gadawg73]

Growing up in the deep south many claimed it was immoral to play cards and for women to wear pants. Interracial marriage, running your business on Sunday, integrated schools and churches were all sins. Wayman G. Wannamaker, great American, pulling guard on the sweep and often known orator was told by his grandmother in Hahira, Ga. 1964 that masturbation was a sin and God would blind him if he kept it up. The good southern Baptist Wayman was he did not want to receive God's Wrath so he said he was just going to do it up and until he needed glasses.

 

[Inevitable]

Growing up in the deep south many claimed it was immoral to play cards and for women to wear pants. Interracial marriage, running your business on Sunday, integrated schools and churches were all sins. Wayman G. Wannamaker, great American, pulling guard on the sweep and often known orator was told by his grandmother in Hahira, Ga. 1964 that masturbation was a sin and God would blind him if he kept it up. The good southern Baptist Wayman was he did not want to receive God's Wrath so he said he was just going to do it up and until he needed glasses.

That is pretty funny.

This post illustrates how religion often times is immoral. Morality comes from our empathy through education. Example.

We now know masturbation doesn't cause blindness through education we actually understand that it is healthy. We empathise with people who are told that their vary nature is wrong, we adjust are morality to allow it.

 

[MaxGrit]

LoL.

You are an insane atheist who's too stupid to see obvious truths and errors. Your confusion and difficulty in understanding why you're insane is a mark of your atheist insanity.

You continually demonstrate poor reading comprehension. Your lack of intelligence makes it a lot harder for you to think critically. It is apparent that you are simply too stupid to understand obvious concepts without lengthy explanations on my part.

Let me point out something obvious: I'm not in an argument with you.

I already told you twice that it's not my job to convince. Are you simply too stupid to understand that?

I know, everybody who disagrees with you is a big stupid doo doo head.

Great argument. Very sound and logical.

Yep. I know with absolute certainly that I am correct about certain issues.

LoL.

You are an insane atheist who's too stupid to see obvious truths and errors. Your confusion and difficulty in understanding why you're insane is a mark of your atheist insanity.

You continually demonstrate poor reading comprehension. Your lack of intelligence makes it a lot harder for you to think critically. It is apparent that you are simply too stupid to understand obvious concepts without lengthy explanations on my part.

Let me point out something obvious: I'm not in an argument with you.

I already told you twice that it's not my job to convince. Are you simply too stupid to understand that?

I know, everybody who disagrees with you is a big stupid doo doo head.

Great argument. Very sound and logical.

Yep. I know with absolute certainly that I am correct about certain issues.

And that is of no use in discussion. So why enter a discussion if you aren't willing to discuss anything?

Morality isn't obedience and it never will be.

Amoral atheists don't know what morality is.