Reality and Morality

[MaxGrit]

God's standard is the only standard that matters because he's the ultimate Judge of all things.

That's a testimonial. Not evidence, reason, or logic.

Meaning that your argument only works if we already agree with you. If we don't, then you have nothing but your subjective beliefs.

Truth is always true.

But how do you know what you believe is truth? After all, folks of other faiths who believe just as surely that they are right contradict you.

Is God telling them some other 'truth'? Or are they merely delusional? And if they latter.....what distinguishes delusional religious faith from accurate religious faith....and how would you know the difference?

Good questions. I learned truths from the teachings of God the Holy Spirit.

And if someone else says the same thing...but disagrees with you..what then?

It depends on the disagreement.

I know that faith in Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation.

 

[Skylar]

That's a testimonial. Not evidence, reason, or logic.

Meaning that your argument only works if we already agree with you. If we don't, then you have nothing but your subjective beliefs.

Truth is always true.

But how do you know what you believe is truth? After all, folks of other faiths who believe just as surely that they are right contradict you.

Is God telling them some other 'truth'? Or are they merely delusional? And if they latter.....what distinguishes delusional religious faith from accurate religious faith....and how would you know the difference?

Good questions. I learned truths from the teachings of God the Holy Spirit.

And if someone else says the same thing...but disagrees with you..what then?

It depends on the disagreement.

I know that faith in Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation.

And someone that believes that salvation is found through the word of Allah, as revealed by his prophet Mohammad......deluded by the devil, are they?

 

[Inevitable]

God's standard is the only standard that matters because he's the ultimate Judge of all things.

That's a testimonial. Not evidence, reason, or logic.

Meaning that your argument only works if we already agree with you. If we don't, then you have nothing but your subjective beliefs.

Truth is always true.

But how do you know what you believe is truth? After all, folks of other faiths who believe just as surely that they are right contradict you.

Is God telling them some other 'truth'? Or are they merely delusional? And if they latter.....what distinguishes delusional religious faith from accurate religious faith....and how would you know the difference?

Good questions. I learned truths from the teachings of God the Holy Spirit.

God blessed me with knowledge of Jesus Christ and the Bible.

The reality is that many people are deluded by the devil.

Did you really? You are justifying an immoral position with religion. You are basically saying that people who disagree with you, not God, are deluded by the devil. Thus attempting to justify the dismissal of any argument you disagree with. This begs the doxastic question. The conclusion that everybody that disagrees with your position is deluded by the devil, is dependant on your position that you are in agreement with God. Speaking from a Christian stand point it isn't possible that you are in agreement with God. Romans 3:23 you fall short of the grace of God. You are a sinner and you live the life of a sinner. If you claim that you don't you are then claiming you are Christ, because he is the only one without sin. So because of your sin nature you live in opposition to God and really depend on his good graces to be forgiven through the savior.

Based on your postings I would say that yes you believe in God, but you believe yourself to be either a prophet, a messiah, or a demigod, because you proclaim your words to be of God. It's a common mistake among Christians.

 

[Inevitable]

Truth is always true.

But how do you know what you believe is truth? After all, folks of other faiths who believe just as surely that they are right contradict you.

Is God telling them some other 'truth'? Or are they merely delusional? And if they latter.....what distinguishes delusional religious faith from accurate religious faith....and how would you know the difference?

Good questions. I learned truths from the teachings of God the Holy Spirit.

And if someone else says the same thing...but disagrees with you..what then?

It depends on the disagreement.

I know that faith in Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation.

And someone that believes that salvation is found through the word of Allah, as revealed by his prophet Mohammad......deluded by the devil, are they?

It's the standard nowhere end to all religious conversations. Where it becomes so incredibly circular it's impossible to have any further discussion.

He has simply presented the argument that you are wrong because he is right.

It is the most simple form of begging the question.

The only thing left for him to do is prove that he is right. You and I both know he can't. The argument is over you have won.

 

[MaxGrit]

Morality in all cases is based on empathy. To say morality comes from religion is false. Religion demands obedience not morality. Often times people use religion to justify immoral acts. Claiming they were simply following the rules.

Empathy allows us to be sensitive to the suffering of others and thus our morality is objective and it is based on science.

Morality comes from God. His perfect being enables us to know about what perfect morals are.

Empathy is a part of morality, therefore morality cannot be based on empathy. Another way to put it is that you can only say that empathy is good because there already existed a moral standard to define good and bad.

Morality doesn't come from God. Good and bad are very subjective. There are different religions, cultures, and social constructs that dictate what is good or bad. If a supreme God controlled that it would be exactly the same across the board. I personally believe God is supreme and singular. But you are saying there are hundreds of different gods because there are hundreds of different moralities.

Morality comes solely from man. It is a result of empathy strictly. And empathy is science. Religion often gets into dehumanizing people who aren't obedient. Thus in some ways religion is immoral.

What you described is the philosophy for the insane. It amazes me that a lot of people are actually so stupid that they would not see how it's simply illogical nonsense.

 

[Inevitable]

Here is a good source for theists and atheists alike to better understand morality.

This explains morality without making use of gods. This is good for theists because you have taken God out of the discussion of morality and that your morals are objective. I am a theist. This is my understanding of morality, it doesn't require a god.
Morality 1: Good without gods:

 

[MaxGrit]

God's standard is the only standard that matters because he's the ultimate Judge of all things.

That's a testimonial. Not evidence, reason, or logic.

Meaning that your argument only works if we already agree with you. If we don't, then you have nothing but your subjective beliefs.

Truth is always true.

But how do you know what you believe is truth? After all, folks of other faiths who believe just as surely that they are right contradict you.

Is God telling them some other 'truth'? Or are they merely delusional? And if they latter.....what distinguishes delusional religious faith from accurate religious faith....and how would you know the difference?

Good questions. I learned truths from the teachings of God the Holy Spirit.

God blessed me with knowledge of Jesus Christ and the Bible.

The reality is that many people are deluded by the devil.

Did you really? You are justifying an immoral position with religion. You are basically saying that people who disagree with you, not God, are deluded by the devil. Thus attempting to justify the dismissal of any argument you disagree with. This begs the doxastic question. The conclusion that everybody that disagrees with your position is deluded by the devil, is dependant on your position that you are in agreement with God. Speaking from a Christian stand point it isn't possible that you are in agreement with God. Romans 3:23 you fall short of the grace of God. You are a sinner and you live the life of a sinner. If you claim that you don't you are then claiming you are Christ, because he is the only one without sin. So because of your sin nature you live in opposition to God and really depend on his good graces to be forgiven through the savior.

Based on your postings I would say that yes you believe in God, but you believe yourself to be either a prophet, a messiah, or a demigod, because you proclaim your words to be of God. It's a common mistake among Christians.

I know the truth. Therefore, it would be immoral to lie to others on what I know is true. Ultimately it is up to God to reveal truths to the elect. I simply attempt to let people know the truth about Jesus Christ, as revealed by God and his Word.

Keep in mind that God is truth. Therefore, I always strive to learn what is truly true.

 

[Inevitable]

Morality in all cases is based on empathy. To say morality comes from religion is false. Religion demands obedience not morality. Often times people use religion to justify immoral acts. Claiming they were simply following the rules.

Empathy allows us to be sensitive to the suffering of others and thus our morality is objective and it is based on science.

Morality comes from God. His perfect being enables us to know about what perfect morals are.

Empathy is a part of morality, therefore morality cannot be based on empathy. Another way to put it is that you can only say that empathy is good because there already existed a moral standard to define good and bad.

Morality doesn't come from God. Good and bad are very subjective. There are different religions, cultures, and social constructs that dictate what is good or bad. If a supreme God controlled that it would be exactly the same across the board. I personally believe God is supreme and singular. But you are saying there are hundreds of different gods because there are hundreds of different moralities.

Morality comes solely from man. It is a result of empathy strictly. And empathy is science. Religion often gets into dehumanizing people who aren't obedient. Thus in some ways religion is immoral.

What you described is the philosophy for the insane. It amazes me that a lot of people are actually so stupid that they would not see how it's simply illogical nonsense.

So it is insane for no other reason than you say it is? Again this begs the question.

You are attempting to dismiss something as insane without explaining why it is insane because you know you cannot logically defend your position.

What logical fallacy have I made? Explain how my positron is illogical nonsense. You have made a claim that my position is illogical, stupid and insane. Logically speaking it is your burden to prove that my positron is illogical stupid or insane.

First define stupid and insane objectively out at least to a point we can both agree on its meaning.

Then explain the illogical position I hold.

I won't be holding my breath.

 

[MaxGrit]

All men are sinners, being born with a nature of sin. I am a sinner, who by the grace of God alone was saved.

God's grace alone grants salvation to the elect, who God predestined before the foundation of the world to be saved by His grace in granting them faith in Jesus Christ.

The elect that are granted God's grace are born again by the Holy Spirit. God draws them, by the Holy Spirit, into faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[Inevitable]

That's a testimonial. Not evidence, reason, or logic.

Meaning that your argument only works if we already agree with you. If we don't, then you have nothing but your subjective beliefs.

Truth is always true.

But how do you know what you believe is truth? After all, folks of other faiths who believe just as surely that they are right contradict you.

Is God telling them some other 'truth'? Or are they merely delusional? And if they latter.....what distinguishes delusional religious faith from accurate religious faith....and how would you know the difference?

Good questions. I learned truths from the teachings of God the Holy Spirit.

God blessed me with knowledge of Jesus Christ and the Bible.

The reality is that many people are deluded by the devil.

Did you really? You are justifying an immoral position with religion. You are basically saying that people who disagree with you, not God, are deluded by the devil. Thus attempting to justify the dismissal of any argument you disagree with. This begs the doxastic question. The conclusion that everybody that disagrees with your position is deluded by the devil, is dependant on your position that you are in agreement with God. Speaking from a Christian stand point it isn't possible that you are in agreement with God. Romans 3:23 you fall short of the grace of God. You are a sinner and you live the life of a sinner. If you claim that you don't you are then claiming you are Christ, because he is the only one without sin. So because of your sin nature you live in opposition to God and really depend on his good graces to be forgiven through the savior.

Based on your postings I would say that yes you believe in God, but you believe yourself to be either a prophet, a messiah, or a demigod, because you proclaim your words to be of God. It's a common mistake among Christians.

I know the truth. Therefore, it would be immoral to lie to others on what I know is true. Ultimately it is up to God to reveal truths to the elect. I simply attempt to let people know the truth about Jesus Christ, as revealed by God and his Word.

Keep in mind that God is truth. Therefore, I always strive to learn what is truly true.

You claim to know the truth, can you prove it?

Everything else in your post isn't relevant unless you can prove your claim.

 

[Inevitable]

All men are sinners, being born with a nature of sin. I am a sinner, who by the grace of God alone was saved.

God's grace alone grants salvation to the elect, who God predestined before the foundation of the world to be saved by His grace in granting them faith in Jesus Christ.

The elect that are granted God's grace are born again by the Holy Spirit. God draws them, by the Holy Spirit, into faith in Jesus Christ.

None of this is relevant to the discussion.

 

[Skylar]

All men are sinners, being born with a nature of sin. I am a sinner, who by the grace of God alone was saved.

And I have no doubt your belief in this is heart felt. The issue is.....how can someone who doesn't already believe as you do verify that your version of 'truth' is accurate, and say, some Imam's isn't? Especially when you both use the same basis of faith in God as the foundation of your beliefs?

That's the rub. God doesn't show up and tell us the difference. Its up to each person to glean the answer to these questions. And often people using this process don't come to the same results.

 

[MaxGrit]

Morality in all cases is based on empathy. To say morality comes from religion is false. Religion demands obedience not morality. Often times people use religion to justify immoral acts. Claiming they were simply following the rules.

Empathy allows us to be sensitive to the suffering of others and thus our morality is objective and it is based on science.

Morality comes from God. His perfect being enables us to know about what perfect morals are.

Empathy is a part of morality, therefore morality cannot be based on empathy. Another way to put it is that you can only say that empathy is good because there already existed a moral standard to define good and bad.

Morality doesn't come from God. Good and bad are very subjective. There are different religions, cultures, and social constructs that dictate what is good or bad. If a supreme God controlled that it would be exactly the same across the board. I personally believe God is supreme and singular. But you are saying there are hundreds of different gods because there are hundreds of different moralities.

Morality comes solely from man. It is a result of empathy strictly. And empathy is science. Religion often gets into dehumanizing people who aren't obedient. Thus in some ways religion is immoral.

What you described is the philosophy for the insane. It amazes me that a lot of people are actually so stupid that they would not see how it's simply illogical nonsense.

So it is insane for no other reason than you say it is? Again this begs the question.

You are attempting to dismiss something as insane without explaining why it is insane because you know you cannot logically defend your position.

What logical fallacy have I made? Explain how my positron is illogical nonsense. You have made a claim that my position is illogical, stupid and insane. Logically speaking it is your burden to prove that my positron is illogical stupid or insane.

First define stupid and insane objectively out at least to a point we can both agree on its meaning.

Then explain the illogical position I hold.

I won't be holding my breath.

If a person really believe in relative morality, then logically that person have to agree that morality doesn't truly exist. For example, since good and evil are relative, logic dictates that the concept of good and evil are meaningless without true distinction.

Relativism, truly realized, leads to a chaos in which there is no truths, no knowledge, no logic. Insanity.

 

[Skylar]

But how do you know what you believe is truth? After all, folks of other faiths who believe just as surely that they are right contradict you.

Is God telling them some other 'truth'? Or are they merely delusional? And if they latter.....what distinguishes delusional religious faith from accurate religious faith....and how would you know the difference?

Good questions. I learned truths from the teachings of God the Holy Spirit.

And if someone else says the same thing...but disagrees with you..what then?

It depends on the disagreement.

I know that faith in Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation.

And someone that believes that salvation is found through the word of Allah, as revealed by his prophet Mohammad......deluded by the devil, are they?

It's the standard nowhere end to all religious conversations. Where it becomes so incredibly circular it's impossible to have any further discussion.

He has simply presented the argument that you are wrong because he is right.

It is the most simple form of begging the question.

The only thing left for him to do is prove that he is right. You and I both know he can't. The argument is over you have won.

And that's my point. Even using the logic of religion, almost all theists are self deluded. As almost all religions are mutually exclusive. So if one is right, all others are wrong. We have only 3 logical conclusions.

1) That god tells different people different things.
2) That only one sect is correct about the 'will of god' and all other theists are self deluded.
3) That no one is corrrect about the will of god.

The first conclusion obliterates the foundation of 'universal truth'. The second means that its ridiculously unlikely that any given mutually exclusive sect is right. The third means that no theist knows the will of God.

Which means, AT BEST, its ridiculously unlikely that any given sect is correct. And far, far more likely that they are wrong. And entirely possible that all of them are wrong. And that's if we accept the axioms 1) There is a god 2) he has a plan for us 3) that plan is knowable.

And none of those axioms are necessarily true either. Rendering theism as a whole a very, very poor bet for universal truth.

 

[Skylar]

If a person really believe in relative morality, then logically that person have to agree that morality doesn't truly exist. For example, since good and evil are relative, logic dictates that the concept of good and evil are meaningless without true distinction.

Relativism, truly realized, leads to a chaos in which there is no truths, no knowledge, no logic. Insanity.

But as all those other theists who are 'deluded by the devil' prove, religion doesn't insulate you from relativism either. As God isn't here to break ties. If two people have two opposing interpretations, there's nothing to indicate which is right and which is wrong. Or if either are right. Its just us and our own subjective interpretations.

The belief in objective truth doesn't mean that you know it. Or could know it. Given that by the logic of religion, almost every theist to have ever lived is self deluded, odds are ridiculously poor that you're not one of them.

 

[MaxGrit]

Truth is always true.

But how do you know what you believe is truth? After all, folks of other faiths who believe just as surely that they are right contradict you.

Is God telling them some other 'truth'? Or are they merely delusional? And if they latter.....what distinguishes delusional religious faith from accurate religious faith....and how would you know the difference?

Good questions. I learned truths from the teachings of God the Holy Spirit.

God blessed me with knowledge of Jesus Christ and the Bible.

The reality is that many people are deluded by the devil.

Did you really? You are justifying an immoral position with religion. You are basically saying that people who disagree with you, not God, are deluded by the devil. Thus attempting to justify the dismissal of any argument you disagree with. This begs the doxastic question. The conclusion that everybody that disagrees with your position is deluded by the devil, is dependant on your position that you are in agreement with God. Speaking from a Christian stand point it isn't possible that you are in agreement with God. Romans 3:23 you fall short of the grace of God. You are a sinner and you live the life of a sinner. If you claim that you don't you are then claiming you are Christ, because he is the only one without sin. So because of your sin nature you live in opposition to God and really depend on his good graces to be forgiven through the savior.

Based on your postings I would say that yes you believe in God, but you believe yourself to be either a prophet, a messiah, or a demigod, because you proclaim your words to be of God. It's a common mistake among Christians.

I know the truth. Therefore, it would be immoral to lie to others on what I know is true. Ultimately it is up to God to reveal truths to the elect. I simply attempt to let people know the truth about Jesus Christ, as revealed by God and his Word.

Keep in mind that God is truth. Therefore, I always strive to learn what is truly true.

You claim to know the truth, can you prove it?

Everything else in your post isn't relevant unless you can prove your claim.

God only requires that I speak the truth about His son, Jesus Christ. It's not my job to prove the truth. God does that part and He shall prove the truth in His Word to whomever He chooses.

 

[Synthaholic]

Is it that time of the month again for PoliticalChic, where she desperately tries to convince everyone that she's an "intellect"? <---did that for you, Hollie.

 

[Inevitable]

Morality in all cases is based on empathy. To say morality comes from religion is false. Religion demands obedience not morality. Often times people use religion to justify immoral acts. Claiming they were simply following the rules.

Empathy allows us to be sensitive to the suffering of others and thus our morality is objective and it is based on science.

Morality comes from God. His perfect being enables us to know about what perfect morals are.

Empathy is a part of morality, therefore morality cannot be based on empathy. Another way to put it is that you can only say that empathy is good because there already existed a moral standard to define good and bad.

Morality doesn't come from God. Good and bad are very subjective. There are different religions, cultures, and social constructs that dictate what is good or bad. If a supreme God controlled that it would be exactly the same across the board. I personally believe God is supreme and singular. But you are saying there are hundreds of different gods because there are hundreds of different moralities.

Morality comes solely from man. It is a result of empathy strictly. And empathy is science. Religion often gets into dehumanizing people who aren't obedient. Thus in some ways religion is immoral.

What you described is the philosophy for the insane. It amazes me that a lot of people are actually so stupid that they would not see how it's simply illogical nonsense.

So it is insane for no other reason than you say it is? Again this begs the question.

You are attempting to dismiss something as insane without explaining why it is insane because you know you cannot logically defend your position.

What logical fallacy have I made? Explain how my positron is illogical nonsense. You have made a claim that my position is illogical, stupid and insane. Logically speaking it is your burden to prove that my positron is illogical stupid or insane.

First define stupid and insane objectively out at least to a point we can both agree on its meaning.

Then explain the illogical position I hold.

I won't be holding my breath.

If a person really believe in relative morality, then logically that person have to agree that morality doesn't truly exist. For example, since good and evil are relative, logic dictates that the concept of good and evil are meaningless without true distinction.

Relativism, truly realized, leads to a chaos in which there is no truths, no knowledge, no logic. Insanity.

I don't believe in relative morality. I believe it's based on empathy and science. It's really not relative at all.

 

[Inevitable]

But how do you know what you believe is truth? After all, folks of other faiths who believe just as surely that they are right contradict you.

Is God telling them some other 'truth'? Or are they merely delusional? And if they latter.....what distinguishes delusional religious faith from accurate religious faith....and how would you know the difference?

Good questions. I learned truths from the teachings of God the Holy Spirit.

God blessed me with knowledge of Jesus Christ and the Bible.

The reality is that many people are deluded by the devil.

Did you really? You are justifying an immoral position with religion. You are basically saying that people who disagree with you, not God, are deluded by the devil. Thus attempting to justify the dismissal of any argument you disagree with. This begs the doxastic question. The conclusion that everybody that disagrees with your position is deluded by the devil, is dependant on your position that you are in agreement with God. Speaking from a Christian stand point it isn't possible that you are in agreement with God. Romans 3:23 you fall short of the grace of God. You are a sinner and you live the life of a sinner. If you claim that you don't you are then claiming you are Christ, because he is the only one without sin. So because of your sin nature you live in opposition to God and really depend on his good graces to be forgiven through the savior.

Based on your postings I would say that yes you believe in God, but you believe yourself to be either a prophet, a messiah, or a demigod, because you proclaim your words to be of God. It's a common mistake among Christians.

I know the truth. Therefore, it would be immoral to lie to others on what I know is true. Ultimately it is up to God to reveal truths to the elect. I simply attempt to let people know the truth about Jesus Christ, as revealed by God and his Word.

Keep in mind that God is truth. Therefore, I always strive to learn what is truly true.

You claim to know the truth, can you prove it?

Everything else in your post isn't relevant unless you can prove your claim.

God only requires that I speak the truth about His son, Jesus Christ. It's not my job to prove the truth. God does that part and He shall prove the truth in His Word to whomever He chooses.

I think you are misunderstanding. Prove you are speaking the truth about his son. I doubt you are, first you are a sinner and are against God by your vary nature and your own admission.

Basically you amount to little more than a street preacher claiming that the end is nigh.

 

[MaxGrit]

Good questions. I learned truths from the teachings of God the Holy Spirit.

And if someone else says the same thing...but disagrees with you..what then?

It depends on the disagreement.

I know that faith in Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation.

And someone that believes that salvation is found through the word of Allah, as revealed by his prophet Mohammad......deluded by the devil, are they?

It's the standard nowhere end to all religious conversations. Where it becomes so incredibly circular it's impossible to have any further discussion.

He has simply presented the argument that you are wrong because he is right.

It is the most simple form of begging the question.

The only thing left for him to do is prove that he is right. You and I both know he can't. The argument is over you have won.

And that's my point. Even using the logic of religion, almost all theists are self deluded. As almost all religions are mutually exclusive. So if one is right, all others are wrong. We have only 3 logical conclusions.

1) That god tells different people different things.
2) That only one sect is correct about the 'will of god' and all other theists are self deluded.
3) That no one is corrrect about the will of god.

The first conclusion obliterates the foundation of 'universal truth'. The second means that its ridiculously unlikely that any given mutually exclusive sect is right. The third means that no theist knows the will of God.

Which means, AT BEST, its ridiculously unlikely that any given sect is correct. And far, far more likely that they are wrong. And entirely possible that all of them are wrong. And that's if we accept the axioms 1) There is a god 2) he has a plan for us 3) that plan is knowable.

And none of those axioms are necessarily true either. Rendering theism as a whole a very, very poor bet for universal truth.

It is simple. One needs to have faith in Jesus Christ and depend on Him for the salvation. Jesus Christ is the only way for men's salvation from eternal punishment of their sins in Hell.

God is unchangeable in nature, therefore #1 is impossible. #3 is wrong because God revealed himself in the Bible.

God wills is that whomever truly believe in His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ, shall be saved.