Republicans can’t have it both ways

[Slade3200]

So, uh, who is going to pay for all them poor babies that are going to pop out ff you make abortion illegal?

How about the two people who made it?

The problem no doubt would be squarely in your court to fix.

Really? I would think it is squarely on the shoulders of the two people who made the baby to fix it, but then again, I’m somebody who actually believes in taking responsibility for their actions, which I realize is a concept most of you have never heard of.

The problem is many don’t take that responsibility and the children suffer as a result and cycle of poverty and all the ugliness around it is perpetuated. We can’t control what other people decide to do

Exactly, so those people need to bear the consequences of their actions. Life isn't fair, plain and simple. You subsidize irresponsible behavior you simply encourage more of it.

So let’s go with that... ban abortions, cut welfare and gov assistance and let them deal with the effects of their actions... so what practical effects do you see occurring in our society?

Does poverty go up or down? What about crime? Quality of life? Medical needs? Etc

 

[emilynghiem]

Dear Billy000
1. given the belief that abortion is murder, just because you don't agree with murdering people for "lack of social support"
doesn't mean you agree to pay for their welfare THROUGH GOVT.

I don't believe you can just kill your full grown offspring, but that doesn't mean GOVT should pay for their care.
There are ADOPTION programs that work to place children with families by personal choice, instead of relying
on Govt to adopt them as wards of the state or welfare recipients.

This isn't either or

2. However I would agree with you that if you are going to let people ban abortions through the state
this opens the door to people banning executions, and yes I would agree that those people who
don't believe in paying for execution should have the option to pay for life imprisonment instead.
And those who don't want to pay for that can pay for executions if they want to (although the
cost per capital case can run $1 million or more in added costs just for the prosecution costs alone, so this tends to be prohibitive)

3. Billy000 what REALLY opened the door for Right to Life to have it "both ways"
is the Democrats did it first --
(a) not only by mandating "right to health care" and FORCING people
to pay for govt regulated insurance that contradicts "freedom of choice".
So basically they want to have "free choice" of abortion and contraception
but they want to FORCE OTHERS to pay for this, which isn't free choice.
You can't force health care through govt and then protest when other taxpayers
reject the terms of reproductive contraception. If you want "free choice"
you have to keep all this OUT OF GOVT so it isn't interfered with by other
taxpayers who don't have the same beliefs and can't be forced to fund them!
(b) imposing LGBT beliefs on schools and businesses, while still demanding
"separation of church and state" when it comes to CHRISTIAN BELIEFS and
practices in public schools and institutions. Again, YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS.

But that's exactly what LIBERALS AND DEMOCRATS were doing!

The last straw was pushing the LGBT agenda and beliefs through govt and public institutions.

This is what has opened the door for the Christian and Prolife to push THEIR beliefs
through as well!

Otherwise, it would be DISCRIMINATION BY CREED for Govt to ONLY ENDORSE these beliefs:
* right to health care for all
* LGBT beliefs, expression and practices
and not ALSO ENDORSE AND INCLUDE THESE BELIEFS
* right to life for all
* Christian beliefs, expression and practices

Democrats should learn this lesson: if you open the door for govt to include
faith based beliefs such as LGBT for ALL CITIZENS to be REQUIRED TO FOLLOW AND FUND
then you've just opened the door for
ALL FAITH BASED BELIEFS including right to life and Christian prayer as well.

well technically you're not correct. someone on death row is there because they deserved to be there by their actions and options. the unborn child had no options in its life. so your comparison is flawed. Not even in the same book.

Dear jc456
What I'm saying is the right of the people not to be forced to FUND these things against their beliefs is equal.

People have EQUAL RIGHT to demand to DEFUND abortion
as they do to DEFUND the death penalty. They don't have to pay for those programs if those violate their beliefs.

Then the issue remains of who is responsible for funding the ALTERNATIVES
A. in the case of the death penalty,
if the people who believe in it agree to fund it but don't agree or believe in funding rehabilitation and life in prison,
then the people who DO believe in it should be willing to fund that instead.
If you want to call it forcing the WRONGDOERS to pay for their own care,
that's essentially the same thing. Because when they don't have resources for that,
it still comes from the people supporting them which are generally the same anti-death penalty
advocates and churches that believe in funding Restorative Justice instead of Retributive.

B. however with funding either abortion or funding support for the children,
this isn't the case of forcing support "through govt as the only alternative."

What I would say is the equivalent is putting equal conditions
and law enforcement behind BARRING MEN from rape and abuse that otherwise leads to abortion.

If the right to life want to eliminate abortion, they would have to hold men equally responsible.

no, it's not. the child has no possible options to choose where the inmate incarcerated did. the choice to kill is given in the inmate, to kill a baby because it exists is evil. It isn't who we are as a society.

I think we are talking about two different things.
I am not talking about the child vs. the offender.

I am talking about the BELIEFS about FUNDING these two things:
* funding abortion
* funding executions

The person involved in these actions can be totally different situations,
but the BELIEFS still remain a personal choice of funding.

For example jc456
gun rights, voting rights, abortion rights, marriage rights.
NONE of these are the same situation
but the common factor in ALL of them is that
people have conflicting POLITICAL BELIEFS about them.

So regardless of the CONTENT OF THE CREED
the government should not be discriminating against one sides' beliefs or another.

Another example jc456
* LGBT beliefs
* Christian beliefs
These are not the same by any definition.
In fact LGBT beliefs are argued as a disorder while Christian beliefs are behind humanitarian outreach that has saved lives.
What they have in common is they are both
FAITH BASED BELIEFS
and thus by government acting neutrally regarding the beliefs people have as individuals
these BELIEFS should be treated the same

Their content is another matter, and I am happy to discuss that further.
But in terms of NOT FORCING PEOPLE TO FUND BIASED
POLICIES AGAINST THEIR BELIEFS, this applies equally to
* abortion
* executions
* marriage laws
* transgender identity and sex changes
etc.
NONE OF THESE ARE THE SAME
but they ALL involve BELIEFS that
Government CANNOT force people to change or fund against their will.
If people don't consent to fund such policies, they have the right to refuse
and to fund alternatives.

me too. people have different feelings with regard to killing innocence for killing innocence, vs killing a Manson inmate type for killing innocent people. I'd give my left nut to see Manson fry like a french fried twinkie, vs paying a couple who had sex and needs to pay for getting rid of their offspring. nope.

Thanks jc456 You bring up another point indirectly.
By recognizing and respecting people's equal right and choice to fund or defund
abortion, executions, or the alternatives to these,
this helps to HUMANIZE relations again, between people and with government.

Treating people like a collective movement or mob helps justify dismissing individual beliefs for political reasons.
And this dehumanization is what allows the human mind to kill or devalue life.

If we dismantle the walls of dehumanization going on politically
we also open up doors and bridges to understanding people as individuals instead of seeing
each other as "anonymous" enemies or political foes.

Respecting people's free choice to fund the alternatives we find more effective
means researching why people oppose certain policies and problems
and why we support other solutions as better. We should work together
to find the best ways to solve these pressing problems we don't agree how to pay for,
not fight because we fear or judge each other as adversarial "groups."

The more we work together effective prevention,
some day we won't have to face these battles that arise after the fact.

 

[Slade3200]

People who support their children get a job.
If you can screw, you can work...

Thank you. This is the greatest fear of the American Left . . . the fear that people will refuse to be victims and will take full responsibility for their own actions. Without a majority class of victims to exploit for political gain like fleeced sheep, every last ideological platform of the modern Democratic Party crumbles away into dust.

You think the Left fear people taking responsibility and working?! Are you high? Perhaps they just haven’t seen the Magic fairy dust that makes all these people go do that. In the mean time while youre looking for your magic there are real problems with poverty and homelessness and crime that need to be dealt with.

No. You are doubling down on the cult of victims talking point loop while attempting to martyr yourself for masses of people who need nothing from you in order to make their own way in life, as most adult Americans are more than capable of doing. Fear not, we understand. We understand that you and your ilk are incapable of not repeating the sacrosanct talking points of your masters; you're psychologically incapable of thinking for yourself. I presented a rational, logical and commonly know/accepted for centuries solution to the meat of the OP: responsible parents work hard to support their families. Regardless, you were unable to defy your ideologue masters' brainwashing and acknowledge that. Twenty-five years ago such behavior would have been frightening, outside of a social sciences lecture hall. Today? Not so much. It's normative reaction from the below average postmodernist automaton.

Your fighting a straw man right now and not responding to the things I actually say. This is a useless discussion. Go find a curbside soapbox to rant on if you need to release some steam and stop wasting my time.

 

[night_son]

People who support their children get a job.
If you can screw, you can work...

Thank you. This is the greatest fear of the American Left . . . the fear that people will refuse to be victims and will take full responsibility for their own actions. Without a majority class of victims to exploit for political gain like fleeced sheep, every last ideological platform of the modern Democratic Party crumbles away into dust.

You think the Left fear people taking responsibility and working?! Are you high? Perhaps they just haven’t seen the Magic fairy dust that makes all these people go do that. In the mean time while youre looking for your magic there are real problems with poverty and homelessness and crime that need to be dealt with.

No. You are doubling down on the cult of victims talking point loop while attempting to martyr yourself for masses of people who need nothing from you in order to make their own way in life, as most adult Americans are more than capable of doing. Fear not, we understand. We understand that you and your ilk are incapable of not repeating the sacrosanct talking points of your masters; you're psychologically incapable of thinking for yourself. I presented a rational, logical and commonly know/accepted for centuries solution to the meat of the OP: responsible parents work hard to support their families. Regardless, you were unable to defy your ideologue masters' brainwashing and acknowledge that. Twenty-five years ago such behavior would have been frightening, outside of a social sciences lecture hall. Today? Not so much. It's normative reaction from the below average postmodernist automaton.

Your fighting a straw man right now and not responding to the things I actually say. This is a useless discussion. Go find a curbside soapbox to rant on if you need to release some steam and stop wasting my time.

Thanks. I accept your terms of surrender.

 

[Dana7360]

So, uh, who is going to pay for all them poor babies that are going to pop out ff you make abortion illegal?

How about the two people who made it?

The problem no doubt would be squarely in your court to fix.

Really? I would think it is squarely on the shoulders of the two people who made the baby to fix it, but then again, I’m somebody who actually believes in taking responsibility for their actions, which I realize is a concept most of you have never heard of.

The problem is many don’t take that responsibility and the children suffer as a result and cycle of poverty and all the ugliness around it is perpetuated. We can’t control what other people decide to do

Exactly, so those people need to bear the consequences of their actions. Life isn't fair, plain and simple. You subsidize irresponsible behavior you simply encourage more of it.

That is very simplistic and not reality.

The reality is that here in America thousands if not millions of children have never met their father. Have never heard his voice. Have never had a father in their lives.

Why?

Because the man walked away from his own flesh and blood. Millions of men make women pregnant then turn their backs and walk away from their own flesh and blood. And it's just fine with our society. While people scream about abortion no one has any problem with men making new life then walking away from it without even looking back to see what they've done.

Thousands of them even deny their own children saying they aren't theirs. So DNA tests have to be done.

My sister's ex husband claimed that my sister had a miscarriage and there was no child. Even though there was no miscarriage and my sister had to take that child with her to court to prove that her ex was lying.

When I worked in the accounting field one of my jobs was garnishing people for debts and child support. Most of it was for child support. I had 2 tall file cabinets filled with files on all he deadbeat dads I received court orders on to garnish for child support. In all those files, ONE was a woman. Only because she set it up as a deduction on her paycheck at the time of the divorce so she wouldn't get behind in child support. I received countless phone calls from men threatening me for garnishing their wages even though it would have been illegal for me not to and a violation of a court order. I can't count how many I had to tell the money was for food, clothes and health care for their own flesh and blood and most didn't care. Most fought all they could to not support their own flesh and blood. Much less take any time to have a relationship with their own flesh and blood.

What are those children supposed to do? Starve? Have no clothes or a roof over their heads? Have no way to see a doctor if they need too?

When men stop walking away from their own flesh and blood we as a society will be able to stop supporting their children.

Until then talking about personal responsibility is nothing but a very lame excuse.

 

[emilynghiem]

People who support their children get a job.
If you can screw, you can work...

Thank you. This is the greatest fear of the American Left . . . the fear that people will refuse to be victims and will take full responsibility for their own actions. Without a majority class of victims to exploit for political gain like fleeced sheep, every last ideological platform of the modern Democratic Party crumbles away into dust.

You think the Left fear people taking responsibility and working?! Are you high? Perhaps they just haven’t seen the Magic fairy dust that makes all these people go do that. In the mean time while youre looking for your magic there are real problems with poverty and homelessness and crime that need to be dealt with.

No. You are doubling down on the cult of victims talking point loop while attempting to martyr yourself for masses of people who need nothing from you in order to make their own way in life, as most adult Americans are more than capable of doing. Fear not, we understand. We understand that you and your ilk are incapable of not repeating the sacrosanct talking points of your masters; you're psychologically incapable of thinking for yourself. I presented a rational, logical and commonly know/accepted for centuries solution to the meat of the OP: responsible parents work hard to support their families. Regardless, you were unable to defy your ideologue masters' brainwashing and acknowledge that. Twenty-five years ago such behavior would have been frightening, outside of a social sciences lecture hall. Today? Not so much. It's normative reaction from the below average postmodernist automaton.

Dear night_son and Slade3200
yes and no.
Yes, as a Democrat and progressive advocate for protecting minority interests underserved by economic disparity,
I fully admit there is a problem with the liberal platforms promoting more dependence on govt than focusing on liberating people to become self-sufficient through education and knowledge of laws, governance, business and finance.

However, because of the mass disparity in education and mentorship opportunities,
I understand that in the meantime, people are seeking support from government to organize enough help to
protect all members of the public from further oppression and exploitation by class.

I agree Democrats have not been going about this the right way, but cause more damage
by BLAMING the "party of the rich" and furthering this disparity by judging people by wealth, class and privilege.
This further ALIENATES the very minority interests from learning how to become
self-sufficient and self-governing, if this demonization and blame continues.

The solution IS to become just as knowledgeable as the "privileged classes"
in law and business/property management, so ALL people gain empowerment to enforce laws
and manage programs for their own communities instead of relying on top down govt or charity handouts.

The Green Party has been pushing especially for microlending programs,
worker owned cooperatives to teach management directly to worker groups,
and consensus based decision process that is more democratically inclusive.

The approach by Democrats is unsustainable, and doesn't solve problems
merely by bashing and blaming people for opposing dependence on govt which isn't the solution either!

What I'd like to see my fellow Progressives take on through both the Democratic and Green Party is to coordinate leadership, MENTORS and investors in setting up Campus cooperatives in every district that needs this support. And teach people how to manage their own
* health care cooperatives
* democratic representation by including all parties proportionally
* legal and financial education
* microlending and credit to invest in their own community development

Instead of dividing the nation as "the party of the poor blaming the rich"
vs. "the party of the rich blaming the poor"
if we agree to match mentors with interns in learning the skills
necessary for self-government, we can solve the problems of
poverty, oppression and also crime, abuse and corruption
but by FREE CHOICE of investing funds into sustainable
business plans and community programs instead of forcing these through govt without accountability to taxpayers.

www.campusplan.org
original campus plan for converting public housing into sustainable campus communities to break the cycle of poverty

www.earnedamnesty.org
extended plan to replicate sustainable campus towns along the border to solve
problems of criminal trafficking, sweatshop slave labor, and restitution owed for such crimes

www.grameenfoundation.org
www.paceuniversal.com
www.patientphysiciancooperatives.com
Examples of nonprofit programs already in operation
that can be replicated in every district and along the border
instead of fighting politically over problems these programs would solve more cost effectively!

 

[Dana7360]

You're right, life isn't fair. So, fuck the kid then, right? Nice pro life stance.

Again, shouldn't you be directing that comment to the people making the child? The onus isn't on me or anyone else to determine what happens to the kid or how he gets supported. It's on the parents and their families. Yes, maybe the kid will have a hard childhood. Boo fucking hoo. As I said, life ain't fair. There are millions of children all over the world in far worse conditions than a kid being poor here in America.

And again, when did I say I supported banning abortion?

Yes, they are bad parents, now what?

What about it?

Then the state has to step in to make sure that the child is properly cared for.

That costs tax dollars. Just as helping the biological parents to rase the child does.

So you can pay for the child to have a proper childhood so it will grow to be a contributing member of our society or you can pay for the child to be a ward of the state and probably continue to be a ward of the state in prison.

If you're just concerned about the money aspect, you're going to pay no matter what. Just choose which you want to pay. A little now and have a contributing member of our society or a lot later who is nothing but a spounge on society.

 

[Cellblock2429]

Republican policy usually just applies to the wealthy. Any other policy that applies to everyone else is just complete non sense.

Republicans can’t expect to outlaw abortion and continue to not do jack shit for kids born to poor single mothers. Basic social services isn’t some radical leftwing idea. They can whine and shame on the mothers for having kids they can’t afford all they want - it still doesn’t change the fact that the kid, you know, exists. What is supposed to happen to this kid born to a home he or she can’t thrive in? Also, if you are actually dumb enough to think women profit off of welfare by having kids then you should just relinquish your right to vote because you’re too stupid to have it. Do republicans not realize how expensive it is to raise a kid? Any government assistance the mom and kid get is a fraction of the overall cost of raising a kid for 18 years.

/——-/ Libs justify killing babies because they might have a tough life. How compassionate of them.

 

[HappyJoy]

So, uh, who is going to pay for all them poor babies that are going to pop out ff you make abortion illegal?

How about the two people who made it?

The problem no doubt would be squarely in your court to fix.

Really? I would think it is squarely on the shoulders of the two people who made the baby to fix it, but then again, I’m somebody who actually believes in taking responsibility for their actions, which I realize is a concept most of you have never heard of.

The problem is many don’t take that responsibility and the children suffer as a result and cycle of poverty and all the ugliness around it is perpetuated. We can’t control what other people decide to do

Exactly, so those people need to bear the consequences of their actions. Life isn't fair, plain and simple. You subsidize irresponsible behavior you simply encourage more of it.

That is very simplistic and not reality.

The reality is that here in America thousands if not millions of children have never met their father. Have never heard his voice. Have never had a father in their lives.

Why?

Because the man walked away from his own flesh and blood. Millions of men make women pregnant then turn their backs and walk away from their own flesh and blood. And it's just fine with our society. While people scream about abortion no one has any problem with men making new life then walking away from it without even looking back to see what they've done.

Thousands of them even deny their own children saying they aren't theirs. So DNA tests have to be done.

My sister's ex husband claimed that my sister had a miscarriage and there was no child. Even though there was no miscarriage and my sister had to take that child with her to court to prove that her ex was lying.

When I worked in the accounting field one of my jobs was garnishing people for debts and child support. Most of it was for child support. I had 2 tall file cabinets filled with files on all he deadbeat dads I received court orders on to garnish for child support. In all those files, ONE was a woman. Only because she set it up as a deduction on her paycheck at the time of the divorce so she wouldn't get behind in child support. I received countless phone calls from men threatening me for garnishing their wages even though it would have been illegal for me not to and a violation of a court order. I can't count how many I had to tell the money was for food, clothes and health care for their own flesh and blood and most didn't care. Most fought all they could to not support their own flesh and blood. Much less take any time to have a relationship with their own flesh and blood.

What are those children supposed to do? Starve? Have no clothes or a roof over their heads? Have no way to see a doctor if they need too?

When men stop walking away from their own flesh and blood we as a society will be able to stop supporting their children.

Until then talking about personal responsibility is nothing but a very lame excuse.

Yeah, but the kid is the parents responsibility.

I can't imagine you will get another response from Taz, clearly he's no interested in nuance, not matter how glaringly obvious it is.

 

[emilynghiem]

So, uh, who is going to pay for all them poor babies that are going to pop out ff you make abortion illegal?

How about the two people who made it?

The problem no doubt would be squarely in your court to fix.

Really? I would think it is squarely on the shoulders of the two people who made the baby to fix it, but then again, I’m somebody who actually believes in taking responsibility for their actions, which I realize is a concept most of you have never heard of.

The problem is many don’t take that responsibility and the children suffer as a result and cycle of poverty and all the ugliness around it is perpetuated. We can’t control what other people decide to do

Exactly, so those people need to bear the consequences of their actions. Life isn't fair, plain and simple. You subsidize irresponsible behavior you simply encourage more of it.

So let’s go with that... ban abortions, cut welfare and gov assistance and let them deal with the effects of their actions... so what practical effects do you see occurring in our society?

Does poverty go up or down? What about crime? Quality of life? Medical needs? Etc

Dear Slade3200 shift the funding and terms of these programs back to States and to Party.

So if Democrats believe in funding universal health care and education for all,
the party members would have the right to defund prisons and executions
and go invest in teaching hospitals, internships and mentorship programs,
and building the social programs they believe in instead of paying for the death penalty and war.

Let Republicans fund the Wall, the military and VA reform and benefits for Vets
and anyone else they agree to fund welfare for under their terms as well.

Then, where there is a budget difference or shortfall, allow parties to
* mentor other parties to create business plans investors agree to back
* invest by donations, grants or business loans to fund these plans on agreed terms
* write off the investments and donations as tax deductible expenses

So the money still comes from taxpayers, but it's under terms they agree to fund and follow.
And the money is deducted from federal taxes, so people don't pay for social programs twice.

 

[night_son]

People who support their children get a job.
If you can screw, you can work...

Thank you. This is the greatest fear of the American Left . . . the fear that people will refuse to be victims and will take full responsibility for their own actions. Without a majority class of victims to exploit for political gain like fleeced sheep, every last ideological platform of the modern Democratic Party crumbles away into dust.

You think the Left fear people taking responsibility and working?! Are you high? Perhaps they just haven’t seen the Magic fairy dust that makes all these people go do that. In the mean time while youre looking for your magic there are real problems with poverty and homelessness and crime that need to be dealt with.

No. You are doubling down on the cult of victims talking point loop while attempting to martyr yourself for masses of people who need nothing from you in order to make their own way in life, as most adult Americans are more than capable of doing. Fear not, we understand. We understand that you and your ilk are incapable of not repeating the sacrosanct talking points of your masters; you're psychologically incapable of thinking for yourself. I presented a rational, logical and commonly know/accepted for centuries solution to the meat of the OP: responsible parents work hard to support their families. Regardless, you were unable to defy your ideologue masters' brainwashing and acknowledge that. Twenty-five years ago such behavior would have been frightening, outside of a social sciences lecture hall. Today? Not so much. It's normative reaction from the below average postmodernist automaton.

Dear night_son and Slade3200
yes and no.
Yes, as a Democrat and progressive advocate for protecting minority interests underserved by economic disparity,
I fully admit there is a problem with the liberal platforms promoting more dependence on govt than focusing on liberating people to become self-sufficient through education and knowledge of laws, governance, business and finance.

However, because of the mass disparity in education and mentorship opportunities,
I understand that in the meantime, people are seeking support from government to organize enough help to
protect all members of the public from further oppression and exploitation by class.

I agree Democrats have not been going about this the right way, but cause more damage
by BLAMING the "party of the rich" and furthering this disparity by judging people by wealth, class and privilege.
This further ALIENATES the very minority interests from learning how to become
self-sufficient and self-governing, if this demonization and blame continues.

The solution IS to become just as knowledgeable as the "privileged classes"
in law and business/property management, so ALL people gain empowerment to enforce laws
and manage programs for their own communities instead of relying on top down govt or charity handouts.

The Green Party has been pushing especially for microlending programs,
worker owned cooperatives to teach management directly to worker groups,
and consensus based decision process that is more democratically inclusive.

The approach by Democrats is unsustainable, and doesn't solve problems
merely by bashing and blaming people for opposing dependence on govt which isn't the solution either!

What I'd like to see my fellow Progressives take on through both the Democratic and Green Party is to coordinate leadership, MENTORS and investors in setting up Campus cooperatives in every district that needs this support. And teach people how to manage their own
* health care cooperatives
* democratic representation by including all parties proportionally
* legal and financial education
* microlending and credit to invest in their own community development

Instead of dividing the nation as "the party of the poor blaming the rich"
vs. "the party of the rich blaming the poor"
if we agree to match mentors with interns in learning the skills
necessary for self-government, we can solve the problems of
poverty, oppression and also crime, abuse and corruption
but by FREE CHOICE of investing funds into sustainable
business plans and community programs instead of forcing these through govt without accountability to taxpayers.

www.campusplan.org
original campus plan for converting public housing into sustainable campus communities to break the cycle of poverty

www.earnedamnesty.org
extended plan to replicate sustainable campus towns along the border to solve
problems of criminal trafficking, sweatshop slave labor, and restitution owed for such crimes

www.grameenfoundation.org
www.paceuniversal.com
www.patientphysiciancooperatives.com
Examples of nonprofit programs already in operation
that can be replicated in every district and along the border
instead of fighting politically over problems these programs would solve more cost effectively!

Thank you for taking the time, making this degree of effort to intercede.

 

[Billy000]

Republican policy usually just applies to the wealthy. Any other policy that applies to everyone else is just complete non sense.

Republicans can’t expect to outlaw abortion and continue to not do jack shit for kids born to poor single mothers. Basic social services isn’t some radical leftwing idea. They can whine and shame on the mothers for having kids they can’t afford all they want - it still doesn’t change the fact that the kid, you know, exists. What is supposed to happen to this kid born to a home he or she can’t thrive in? Also, if you are actually dumb enough to think women profit off of welfare by having kids then you should just relinquish your right to vote because you’re too stupid to have it. Do republicans not realize how expensive it is to raise a kid? Any government assistance the mom and kid get is a fraction of the overall cost of raising a kid for 18 years.

Regardless of the inane and trite ideological talking points your ilk regurgitate and wear like some sacramental aegis, the protest for legal abortion remains an outcry for justification, for an "out" from personal responsibility. Nowhere is this more clear than in the argument you put forward in this thread. The answer to your question, an answer known by most adult men since the beginning of time, is quite elegant for its biological simplicity and derivative only of common sense. The answer is: responsibility for paying for the life of a new child rests solely on the shoulders of his or her parents. In ancient times that burden could indeed be steep, as new parents might have to actually perform intensive physical labor in order to provide for their newborn's needs or perhaps even relocate their new family to kinder geography. Now, however, in this modern world of ours, a job that comes with this benefit known as health insurance will normally do the trick for the vast majority of men and women who choose not to sit around on their asses and wait for our government to pay for their lives.

Your argument here depends on millions of Americans to be in poverty, without employment and without associated health benefits. In other words, your argument attempts to persuade or convince those who read it that some silent legion of potential American Parents likely choose not to work and by working receive medical insurance, but instead suffer because the government will not supplement their mass ennui, apathy and all around chronic refusal to get a job. Big surprise, what this argument boils down to is potential American Parents being yet another group of perpetual victims of the state. See, in order for your ideological arguments to hold a drop of water, the people involved in whatever said argument must first be proven yet another group of victims.

Funny, isn't it? How fulfillment of common adult personal responsibility, how taking responsibility for one's actions (working a job, providing for family) render this abortion justification talking point completely null and fucking void. There is no majority of America where working age men and women sit around, refuse to get a job and expect manna to fall from the heaven to save and provide for their lives. Unless of course, we're talking cultures. Cultures where that is exactly what the Democrats expect certain inner city peoples to do. Your ilk, your ideology? In order to function at all requires victims who never escape victimhood. Without victimizing segments of our population and then making votes and money off their story of suffering, the American Left could not exist. But you fucked up, friend. Your side suddenly decided to make murdering unborn children your new call to martyrdom, your new messiah. Once across that particular line you just can't go back.

See, this post is long but all fluff and no facts dictating your position. You make the patently false claim that parents profit off of government welfare when I’ve already explained that doesn’t make any economic sense. Sure, people would want to exploit welfare if they had the chance, but the reality is that they just can’t.

And again, pathetically, you ignore the issue of the child specifically. Like it or not, the child exists regardless of how irresponsible the mother may be. It’s so incredibly lame.

 

[Billy000]

Republican policy usually just applies to the wealthy. Any other policy that applies to everyone else is just complete non sense.

Republicans can’t expect to outlaw abortion and continue to not do jack shit for kids born to poor single mothers. Basic social services isn’t some radical leftwing idea. They can whine and shame on the mothers for having kids they can’t afford all they want - it still doesn’t change the fact that the kid, you know, exists. What is supposed to happen to this kid born to a home he or she can’t thrive in? Also, if you are actually dumb enough to think women profit off of welfare by having kids then you should just relinquish your right to vote because you’re too stupid to have it. Do republicans not realize how expensive it is to raise a kid? Any government assistance the mom and kid get is a fraction of the overall cost of raising a kid for 18 years.

SSDD.

Name the time where republicans cut one single penny from the social safety futon.

You can't because they never have.

Straw man fail...Find something else to snivel and wring your hands about.

Uhh welol doing that wouldn’t make any sense because the assistance people get is way behind on the rate of inflation and cost of living.

 

[night_son]

Republican policy usually just applies to the wealthy. Any other policy that applies to everyone else is just complete non sense.

Republicans can’t expect to outlaw abortion and continue to not do jack shit for kids born to poor single mothers. Basic social services isn’t some radical leftwing idea. They can whine and shame on the mothers for having kids they can’t afford all they want - it still doesn’t change the fact that the kid, you know, exists. What is supposed to happen to this kid born to a home he or she can’t thrive in? Also, if you are actually dumb enough to think women profit off of welfare by having kids then you should just relinquish your right to vote because you’re too stupid to have it. Do republicans not realize how expensive it is to raise a kid? Any government assistance the mom and kid get is a fraction of the overall cost of raising a kid for 18 years.

Regardless of the inane and trite ideological talking points your ilk regurgitate and wear like some sacramental aegis, the protest for legal abortion remains an outcry for justification, for an "out" from personal responsibility. Nowhere is this more clear than in the argument you put forward in this thread. The answer to your question, an answer known by most adult men since the beginning of time, is quite elegant for its biological simplicity and derivative only of common sense. The answer is: responsibility for paying for the life of a new child rests solely on the shoulders of his or her parents. In ancient times that burden could indeed be steep, as new parents might have to actually perform intensive physical labor in order to provide for their newborn's needs or perhaps even relocate their new family to kinder geography. Now, however, in this modern world of ours, a job that comes with this benefit known as health insurance will normally do the trick for the vast majority of men and women who choose not to sit around on their asses and wait for our government to pay for their lives.

Your argument here depends on millions of Americans to be in poverty, without employment and without associated health benefits. In other words, your argument attempts to persuade or convince those who read it that some silent legion of potential American Parents likely choose not to work and by working receive medical insurance, but instead suffer because the government will not supplement their mass ennui, apathy and all around chronic refusal to get a job. Big surprise, what this argument boils down to is potential American Parents being yet another group of perpetual victims of the state. See, in order for your ideological arguments to hold a drop of water, the people involved in whatever said argument must first be proven yet another group of victims.

Funny, isn't it? How fulfillment of common adult personal responsibility, how taking responsibility for one's actions (working a job, providing for family) render this abortion justification talking point completely null and fucking void. There is no majority of America where working age men and women sit around, refuse to get a job and expect manna to fall from the heaven to save and provide for their lives. Unless of course, we're talking cultures. Cultures where that is exactly what the Democrats expect certain inner city peoples to do. Your ilk, your ideology? In order to function at all requires victims who never escape victimhood. Without victimizing segments of our population and then making votes and money off their story of suffering, the American Left could not exist. But you fucked up, friend. Your side suddenly decided to make murdering unborn children your new call to martyrdom, your new messiah. Once across that particular line you just can't go back.

See, this post is long but all fluff and no facts dictating your position. You make the patently false claim that parents profit off of government welfare when I’ve already explained that doesn’t make any economic sense. Sure, people would want to exploit welfare if they had the chance, but the reality is that they just can’t.

And again, pathetically, you ignore the issue of the child specifically. Like it or not, the child exists regardless of how irresponsible the mother may be. It’s so incredibly lame.

Hard for you to redefine the word 'lame' when I am reading the definition in real-time. Lame is a kinder manner of describing your effort to triple down on regurgitating how America is brimming with victims incapable of paying for their own lives or the lives of their soon-to-be-born children as justification for murdering them before birth (that part is lame for sure and in no small part, sadistic). Why does you response "feel" like somebody coached your in devising it? Perhaps you're just in over your head?

 

[emilynghiem]

Republican policy usually just applies to the wealthy. Any other policy that applies to everyone else is just complete non sense.

Republicans can’t expect to outlaw abortion and continue to not do jack shit for kids born to poor single mothers. Basic social services isn’t some radical leftwing idea. They can whine and shame on the mothers for having kids they can’t afford all they want - it still doesn’t change the fact that the kid, you know, exists. What is supposed to happen to this kid born to a home he or she can’t thrive in? Also, if you are actually dumb enough to think women profit off of welfare by having kids then you should just relinquish your right to vote because you’re too stupid to have it. Do republicans not realize how expensive it is to raise a kid? Any government assistance the mom and kid get is a fraction of the overall cost of raising a kid for 18 years.

Regardless of the inane and trite ideological talking points your ilk regurgitate and wear like some sacramental aegis, the protest for legal abortion remains an outcry for justification, for an "out" from personal responsibility. Nowhere is this more clear than in the argument you put forward in this thread. The answer to your question, an answer known by most adult men since the beginning of time, is quite elegant for its biological simplicity and derivative only of common sense. The answer is: responsibility for paying for the life of a new child rests solely on the shoulders of his or her parents. In ancient times that burden could indeed be steep, as new parents might have to actually perform intensive physical labor in order to provide for their newborn's needs or perhaps even relocate their new family to kinder geography. Now, however, in this modern world of ours, a job that comes with this benefit known as health insurance will normally do the trick for the vast majority of men and women who choose not to sit around on their asses and wait for our government to pay for their lives.

Your argument here depends on millions of Americans to be in poverty, without employment and without associated health benefits. In other words, your argument attempts to persuade or convince those who read it that some silent legion of potential American Parents likely choose not to work and by working receive medical insurance, but instead suffer because the government will not supplement their mass ennui, apathy and all around chronic refusal to get a job. Big surprise, what this argument boils down to is potential American Parents being yet another group of perpetual victims of the state. See, in order for your ideological arguments to hold a drop of water, the people involved in whatever said argument must first be proven yet another group of victims.

Funny, isn't it? How fulfillment of common adult personal responsibility, how taking responsibility for one's actions (working a job, providing for family) render this abortion justification talking point completely null and fucking void. There is no majority of America where working age men and women sit around, refuse to get a job and expect manna to fall from the heaven to save and provide for their lives. Unless of course, we're talking cultures. Cultures where that is exactly what the Democrats expect certain inner city peoples to do. Your ilk, your ideology? In order to function at all requires victims who never escape victimhood. Without victimizing segments of our population and then making votes and money off their story of suffering, the American Left could not exist. But you fucked up, friend. Your side suddenly decided to make murdering unborn children your new call to martyrdom, your new messiah. Once across that particular line you just can't go back.

See, this post is long but all fluff and no facts dictating your position. You make the patently false claim that parents profit off of government welfare when I’ve already explained that doesn’t make any economic sense. Sure, people would want to exploit welfare if they had the chance, but the reality is that they just can’t.

And again, pathetically, you ignore the issue of the child specifically. Like it or not, the child exists regardless of how irresponsible the mother may be. It’s so incredibly lame.

Dear Billy000
Given the complaints about welfare from BOTH the recipients (who get punished if
they get a job or car or anything to try to get out of poverty)
AND the taxpayers who don't want to fund garbage programs,
this shows how BAD and ineffective govt welfare is because
of lack of oversight and counseling that govt cannot provide one on one as needed.

The disaster with FEMA disaster relief is another indication
that federal govt is not designed to handle individual cases one on one.
People including me and my neighbors were lucky to get anything at all after Harvey,
and every phone call and document required for screening or appeal, after the system
failed to distinguish real cases from fraud, became part of the trauma.

It's not that taxpayers don't want to help, but they want it to be
more accountable and not become a bureaucratic mess through govt
trying to mainstream the process and treat everyone the same when they're not!

This dependence on "going through govt" DEFIES the very arguments
of Liberal Progressives in ACCOMMDATING diversity, of treating
people as INDIVIDUALS instead of assuming and treating people as a class.

I know the intent is good, but thinking you can just get govt to act
as a "single payer" and let people have free choice on their side is not
how govt works. Govt has to answer to ALL people, and Billy000
half the nation does NOT believe in running social programs through federal govt.
It unconstitutionally violates the BELIEFS of opponents, as much as
forcing God or Jesus on people through govt would violate rights and beliefs of nontheists.

If people CHOOSE to go through Churches or Govt for YOUR benefits,
then you should have the free choice of WHICH programs to participate in and to fund.
Just like any other religious organization or nonprofit charity.

The minute funding is FORCED, there is no accountability for the terms of expenditure
which people do not agree on anyway. That's why conservatives making up half
the nation argue for free market choice to go through private programs they
can select based on accountability and cost effective services that DESERVE their funding
and EARN their trust and reputation for providing counseling and services to help
the poor and those in need to remedy their situations instead of relying on unchecked handouts through govt.

 

[jc456]

So, uh, who is going to pay for all them poor babies that are going to pop out ff you make abortion illegal?

How about the two people who made it?

The problem no doubt would be squarely in your court to fix.

Really? I would think it is squarely on the shoulders of the two people who made the baby to fix it, but then again, I’m somebody who actually believes in taking responsibility for their actions, which I realize is a concept most of you have never heard of.

The problem is many don’t take that responsibility and the children suffer as a result and cycle of poverty and all the ugliness around it is perpetuated. We can’t control what other people decide to do

Exactly, so those people need to bear the consequences of their actions. Life isn't fair, plain and simple. You subsidize irresponsible behavior you simply encourage more of it.

That is very simplistic and not reality.

The reality is that here in America thousands if not millions of children have never met their father. Have never heard his voice. Have never had a father in their lives.

Why?

Because the man walked away from his own flesh and blood. Millions of men make women pregnant then turn their backs and walk away from their own flesh and blood. And it's just fine with our society. While people scream about abortion no one has any problem with men making new life then walking away from it without even looking back to see what they've done.

Thousands of them even deny their own children saying they aren't theirs. So DNA tests have to be done.

My sister's ex husband claimed that my sister had a miscarriage and there was no child. Even though there was no miscarriage and my sister had to take that child with her to court to prove that her ex was lying.

When I worked in the accounting field one of my jobs was garnishing people for debts and child support. Most of it was for child support. I had 2 tall file cabinets filled with files on all he deadbeat dads I received court orders on to garnish for child support. In all those files, ONE was a woman. Only because she set it up as a deduction on her paycheck at the time of the divorce so she wouldn't get behind in child support. I received countless phone calls from men threatening me for garnishing their wages even though it would have been illegal for me not to and a violation of a court order. I can't count how many I had to tell the money was for food, clothes and health care for their own flesh and blood and most didn't care. Most fought all they could to not support their own flesh and blood. Much less take any time to have a relationship with their own flesh and blood.

What are those children supposed to do? Starve? Have no clothes or a roof over their heads? Have no way to see a doctor if they need too?

When men stop walking away from their own flesh and blood we as a society will be able to stop supporting their children.

Until then talking about personal responsibility is nothing but a very lame excuse.

Yeah, but the kid is the parents responsibility.

I can't imagine you will get another response from Taz, clearly he's no interested in nuance, not matter how glaringly obvious it is.

no innocent life is worthy of death.

 

[HappyJoy]

How about the two people who made it?

Really? I would think it is squarely on the shoulders of the two people who made the baby to fix it, but then again, I’m somebody who actually believes in taking responsibility for their actions, which I realize is a concept most of you have never heard of.

The problem is many don’t take that responsibility and the children suffer as a result and cycle of poverty and all the ugliness around it is perpetuated. We can’t control what other people decide to do

Exactly, so those people need to bear the consequences of their actions. Life isn't fair, plain and simple. You subsidize irresponsible behavior you simply encourage more of it.

That is very simplistic and not reality.

The reality is that here in America thousands if not millions of children have never met their father. Have never heard his voice. Have never had a father in their lives.

Why?

Because the man walked away from his own flesh and blood. Millions of men make women pregnant then turn their backs and walk away from their own flesh and blood. And it's just fine with our society. While people scream about abortion no one has any problem with men making new life then walking away from it without even looking back to see what they've done.

Thousands of them even deny their own children saying they aren't theirs. So DNA tests have to be done.

My sister's ex husband claimed that my sister had a miscarriage and there was no child. Even though there was no miscarriage and my sister had to take that child with her to court to prove that her ex was lying.

When I worked in the accounting field one of my jobs was garnishing people for debts and child support. Most of it was for child support. I had 2 tall file cabinets filled with files on all he deadbeat dads I received court orders on to garnish for child support. In all those files, ONE was a woman. Only because she set it up as a deduction on her paycheck at the time of the divorce so she wouldn't get behind in child support. I received countless phone calls from men threatening me for garnishing their wages even though it would have been illegal for me not to and a violation of a court order. I can't count how many I had to tell the money was for food, clothes and health care for their own flesh and blood and most didn't care. Most fought all they could to not support their own flesh and blood. Much less take any time to have a relationship with their own flesh and blood.

What are those children supposed to do? Starve? Have no clothes or a roof over their heads? Have no way to see a doctor if they need too?

When men stop walking away from their own flesh and blood we as a society will be able to stop supporting their children.

Until then talking about personal responsibility is nothing but a very lame excuse.

Yeah, but the kid is the parents responsibility.

I can't imagine you will get another response from Taz, clearly he's no interested in nuance, not matter how glaringly obvious it is.

no innocent life is worthy of death.

Neat, it's almost like you value an embryo the same as a child. We both know that didn't go so well for you today.

 

[jc456]

The problem is many don’t take that responsibility and the children suffer as a result and cycle of poverty and all the ugliness around it is perpetuated. We can’t control what other people decide to do

Exactly, so those people need to bear the consequences of their actions. Life isn't fair, plain and simple. You subsidize irresponsible behavior you simply encourage more of it.

That is very simplistic and not reality.

The reality is that here in America thousands if not millions of children have never met their father. Have never heard his voice. Have never had a father in their lives.

Why?

Because the man walked away from his own flesh and blood. Millions of men make women pregnant then turn their backs and walk away from their own flesh and blood. And it's just fine with our society. While people scream about abortion no one has any problem with men making new life then walking away from it without even looking back to see what they've done.

Thousands of them even deny their own children saying they aren't theirs. So DNA tests have to be done.

My sister's ex husband claimed that my sister had a miscarriage and there was no child. Even though there was no miscarriage and my sister had to take that child with her to court to prove that her ex was lying.

When I worked in the accounting field one of my jobs was garnishing people for debts and child support. Most of it was for child support. I had 2 tall file cabinets filled with files on all he deadbeat dads I received court orders on to garnish for child support. In all those files, ONE was a woman. Only because she set it up as a deduction on her paycheck at the time of the divorce so she wouldn't get behind in child support. I received countless phone calls from men threatening me for garnishing their wages even though it would have been illegal for me not to and a violation of a court order. I can't count how many I had to tell the money was for food, clothes and health care for their own flesh and blood and most didn't care. Most fought all they could to not support their own flesh and blood. Much less take any time to have a relationship with their own flesh and blood.

What are those children supposed to do? Starve? Have no clothes or a roof over their heads? Have no way to see a doctor if they need too?

When men stop walking away from their own flesh and blood we as a society will be able to stop supporting their children.

Until then talking about personal responsibility is nothing but a very lame excuse.

Yeah, but the kid is the parents responsibility.

I can't imagine you will get another response from Taz, clearly he's no interested in nuance, not matter how glaringly obvious it is.

no innocent life is worthy of death.

Neat, it's almost like you value an embryo the same as a child. We both know that didn't go so well for you today.

they are the same thing, it's like a tadpole becomes a frog. you need some schooling. and a freezer in a fire doesn't melt.

 

[HappyJoy]

Exactly, so those people need to bear the consequences of their actions. Life isn't fair, plain and simple. You subsidize irresponsible behavior you simply encourage more of it.

That is very simplistic and not reality.

The reality is that here in America thousands if not millions of children have never met their father. Have never heard his voice. Have never had a father in their lives.

Why?

Because the man walked away from his own flesh and blood. Millions of men make women pregnant then turn their backs and walk away from their own flesh and blood. And it's just fine with our society. While people scream about abortion no one has any problem with men making new life then walking away from it without even looking back to see what they've done.

Thousands of them even deny their own children saying they aren't theirs. So DNA tests have to be done.

My sister's ex husband claimed that my sister had a miscarriage and there was no child. Even though there was no miscarriage and my sister had to take that child with her to court to prove that her ex was lying.

When I worked in the accounting field one of my jobs was garnishing people for debts and child support. Most of it was for child support. I had 2 tall file cabinets filled with files on all he deadbeat dads I received court orders on to garnish for child support. In all those files, ONE was a woman. Only because she set it up as a deduction on her paycheck at the time of the divorce so she wouldn't get behind in child support. I received countless phone calls from men threatening me for garnishing their wages even though it would have been illegal for me not to and a violation of a court order. I can't count how many I had to tell the money was for food, clothes and health care for their own flesh and blood and most didn't care. Most fought all they could to not support their own flesh and blood. Much less take any time to have a relationship with their own flesh and blood.

What are those children supposed to do? Starve? Have no clothes or a roof over their heads? Have no way to see a doctor if they need too?

When men stop walking away from their own flesh and blood we as a society will be able to stop supporting their children.

Until then talking about personal responsibility is nothing but a very lame excuse.

Yeah, but the kid is the parents responsibility.

I can't imagine you will get another response from Taz, clearly he's no interested in nuance, not matter how glaringly obvious it is.

no innocent life is worthy of death.

Neat, it's almost like you value an embryo the same as a child. We both know that didn't go so well for you today.

they are the same thing, it's like a tadpole becomes a frog. you need some schooling. and a freezer in a fire doesn't melt.

Melt? Dude, keep up the excuses.

Tadpole? They live outside the frog, right? You might as well have used a calf/cow comparison.

 

[jc456]

That is very simplistic and not reality.

The reality is that here in America thousands if not millions of children have never met their father. Have never heard his voice. Have never had a father in their lives.

Why?

Because the man walked away from his own flesh and blood. Millions of men make women pregnant then turn their backs and walk away from their own flesh and blood. And it's just fine with our society. While people scream about abortion no one has any problem with men making new life then walking away from it without even looking back to see what they've done.

Thousands of them even deny their own children saying they aren't theirs. So DNA tests have to be done.

My sister's ex husband claimed that my sister had a miscarriage and there was no child. Even though there was no miscarriage and my sister had to take that child with her to court to prove that her ex was lying.

When I worked in the accounting field one of my jobs was garnishing people for debts and child support. Most of it was for child support. I had 2 tall file cabinets filled with files on all he deadbeat dads I received court orders on to garnish for child support. In all those files, ONE was a woman. Only because she set it up as a deduction on her paycheck at the time of the divorce so she wouldn't get behind in child support. I received countless phone calls from men threatening me for garnishing their wages even though it would have been illegal for me not to and a violation of a court order. I can't count how many I had to tell the money was for food, clothes and health care for their own flesh and blood and most didn't care. Most fought all they could to not support their own flesh and blood. Much less take any time to have a relationship with their own flesh and blood.

What are those children supposed to do? Starve? Have no clothes or a roof over their heads? Have no way to see a doctor if they need too?

When men stop walking away from their own flesh and blood we as a society will be able to stop supporting their children.

Until then talking about personal responsibility is nothing but a very lame excuse.

Yeah, but the kid is the parents responsibility.

I can't imagine you will get another response from Taz, clearly he's no interested in nuance, not matter how glaringly obvious it is.

no innocent life is worthy of death.

Neat, it's almost like you value an embryo the same as a child. We both know that didn't go so well for you today.

they are the same thing, it's like a tadpole becomes a frog. you need some schooling. and a freezer in a fire doesn't melt.

Melt? Dude, keep up the excuses.

Tadpole? They live outside the frog, right? You might as well have used a calf/cow comparison.