Republicans to target unions, expand school choice in states

[Ray From Cleveland]

My son excelled in a charter school and is now an engineer. My 1 st daughter was entered into a charter school starting g kindergarten and was reading three grades above her class level in 1st grade.

Sent from my YD206 using USMessageBoard.com mobile app

In choosing a charter school, it's critical that a parent match the school to the child because there are huge differences in charter school, much more so than in public schools. There is a wide array of charter school types. Charter schools may be specialized, either as to their program focus such as a STEM academy or students served such as prior drop-outs, though many simply serve mainstream populations with a distinct academic approach. There are charter schools in all sorts of settings – rural, urban, and suburban and even online charter schools providing distance-learning opportunities. Some charter schools operate as neighborhood schools, having turned-around or converted traditional district schools. I have seen charter schools that specialize in teaching homeless children, ESL students, and Special Ed. Like private schools and public schools, they can be very good or very bad.

Charter schools are the answer for some parents but not all. Only about 3% of the students across the country attend charter schools. California has the largest enrollment, 8%.

Perhaps, but vouchers are not limited to just charter schools. Some use religious schools and others use their vouchers for a different public school in an area where they don't live.

That all depends on state laws.
Voucher programs give parents a choice that they would not have otherwise but do they improve education?
In the 5 states with highest test scores in public schools, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Maine, New Jersey, and Vermont, only Vermont has a voucher program. The 5 states with the lowest test scores in public schools, New Mexico, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, and West Virginia, only Louisiana and Mississippi have voucher programs. None of these states with voucher programs shows any significant improvement in test scores over public schools in those states.

Looking at the 13 states that have voucher programs, areas in which test scores are in the bottom quartile, students on vouchers scored 5% higher than those in public schools. However, those in top two quartiles scored higher in public schools.

Bottom line is that voucher programs give parents a choice. In really bad schools, students can do better with vouchers, if the parents pick the right schools. However, in really good public schools, kids do better than than those on vouchers.
http://public-schools.startclass.com/stories/13054/states-ranked-test-scores#1-New-Mexico

However as I posted earlier, you have more graduates from private school (with vouchers) than public schools. That's an accomplishment right there if you had a chid failing in the public school.

In 2014, there 250,000 students participating in voucher programs. The expected graduation this school year is 3.2 million from public schools in the US and 300,000 from private schools. Unless we're not on the same page, there are over 10 times as many students graduating from public schools as there are vouchers issued in the US.
Fast Facts
School voucher - Wikipedia

But not with charter schools though. This is less of an issue of what does better as a whole than it is individual choice. You can go to areas (middle-class and upper-class suburbs) where the public schools have a fine history. We used to have that here where I live. Then pin that up against private school to get desired results. You won't get the same results if you put lower income city public school against private, and lower income schools are where most of those voucher kids are going to come from.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

why don't you extend the class times then? why are you against an eight hour class schedule?

Extending school hours will do nothing. If you have 30+ kids in the class it is impossible to help all especially if you don't have an assistant. Smaller classrooms are the key to quality education. Especially the younger they are.

that's merely a cop out. Then the class schedule is bad. The teacher is then bad. dude, why is it majorities can learn in the environment and minorities don't seem to? Extra time gives the ability to go to those who need help right?

Ok. So how about you teach a class of 30+ 1st graders and see how easy it is.

Class size needs to be smaller. Not hours extended. High school students may be able to handle an eight hour school day but definitely not elementary and middle schoolers.

Why not? When I was in elementary and middle school, we had the same hours as high schoolers.

And how many hours in total did you go to school?

I really can't tell you and I don't know what that has to do with what I said. But what I can tell you is all students went to school the same hours.

 

[LeftofLeft]

I grew up in the district and now live in a neighboring state. Show US how vouchers did not improve education in the district yet the highest cost per pupil in the US is somehow yielding better results??

The stark reality is that the NEA Union does not like vouchers because it means less money for their coffers and cronies. I'll bet you'll site some NEA or NEA proxy study saying vouchers don't work?

Well, unfortunately, they are the only ones who've done studies on the subject.

D.C. School Voucher Plan Failing to Meet Goals

Only 75 of the 1,300 students who used a federal government voucher last year in the District of Columbia came from schools designated as "in need of improvement," according to the 2005 report by the People for the American Way (PFAW).

• More than 200 students already enrolled in private schools have received vouchers.
• So few students applied for vouchers that the voucher program cannot be evaluated this year by comparing the performance of students who are using vouchers with that of those students who sought but could not get vouchers, although the voucher law requires that such a comparison be made.

Vouchers don't do much for students

Nationwide, many schools participating in voucher programs infuse religion through their curriculum. Zack Kopplin, a student activist who favors rigorous science education, has found more than 300 voucher schools across the U.S. that teach the Biblical story of creation as science; some also instruct children that the world is just several thousand years old and use textbooks describing the Loch Ness Monster as a living dinosaur. Parents at one such school in Louisiana received a newsletter calling secular scientists “sinful men.”

The widespread assumption in the US is that private schools do a better job educating children than public schools, but there is quite a bit of evidence to the contrary. One of the most comprehensive studies ever performed of school type and achievement in mathematics, a subject widely held to be the best measure of in-school learning showed public schools out performed private. Researchers in this study analyzed instruction and performance for over 300,000 elementary and middle school students in 15,108 public, charter, and private schools. The results left no doubt that public schools were performing much better than non-public schools.
Are private schools better than public schools? New book says ‘no’

Universally speaking, I believe public schools do better. The issue I have specifically is in the case of public schools that underperform, are dangerous, and/or aged facilities. Parents don't want their kids to have to go to that school yet may not have access to finances to send their kids to private schools. Vouchers enable that.

 

[aris2chat]

I grew up in the district and now live in a neighboring state. Show US how vouchers did not improve education in the district yet the highest cost per pupil in the US is somehow yielding better results??

The stark reality is that the NEA Union does not like vouchers because it means less money for their coffers and cronies. I'll bet you'll site some NEA or NEA proxy study saying vouchers don't work?

Well, unfortunately, they are the only ones who've done studies on the subject.

D.C. School Voucher Plan Failing to Meet Goals

Only 75 of the 1,300 students who used a federal government voucher last year in the District of Columbia came from schools designated as "in need of improvement," according to the 2005 report by the People for the American Way (PFAW).

• More than 200 students already enrolled in private schools have received vouchers.
• So few students applied for vouchers that the voucher program cannot be evaluated this year by comparing the performance of students who are using vouchers with that of those students who sought but could not get vouchers, although the voucher law requires that such a comparison be made.

Vouchers don't do much for students

Nationwide, many schools participating in voucher programs infuse religion through their curriculum. Zack Kopplin, a student activist who favors rigorous science education, has found more than 300 voucher schools across the U.S. that teach the Biblical story of creation as science; some also instruct children that the world is just several thousand years old and use textbooks describing the Loch Ness Monster as a living dinosaur. Parents at one such school in Louisiana received a newsletter calling secular scientists “sinful men.”

The widespread assumption in the US is that private schools do a better job educating children than public schools, but there is quite a bit of evidence to the contrary. One of the most comprehensive studies ever performed of school type and achievement in mathematics, a subject widely held to be the best measure of in-school learning showed public schools out performed private. Researchers in this study analyzed instruction and performance for over 300,000 elementary and middle school students in 15,108 public, charter, and private schools. The results left no doubt that public schools were performing much better than non-public schools.
Are private schools better than public schools? New book says ‘no’

Universally speaking, I believe public schools do better. The issue I have specifically is in the case of public schools that underperform, are dangerous, and/or aged facilities. Parents don't want their kids to have to go to that school yet may not have access to finances to send their kids to private schools. Vouchers enable that.

public schools lowering standards to just pass off students that can barely read and write............are you joking?

The US cannot compete with other nations if we keep focusing on quantity instead of quality. We need the best of the best motivating students, not awards for just showing up and doing nothing.

We need flexibility and teachers free to use imaginative teaching to inspire students. My sister-in-law used to teach special ed and was reprimanded for actually getting students to read instead of just babysitting them. How is that good teaching policy, because it make the few who did not learn as well look bad? They would rather a class full of equally incapable students than a few special ed students that need more personal attention?

My son did over year of classes by phone, went back to classrooms and then given the option to take his last year at a satellite school where students study at their own pace on computers. He graduated in four months with honors.

Not all students learn the same way and lowering standards is the worst thing a school can do IMO. I remember students competing to set the curve, better students also were responsible for helping those struggling for the betterment of the whole class.

I started school at a disadvantage taking classes in three languages, but by my fifth year I was spending free time tutoring years 1-3 and helping with the kindergarten classes in a my free time in all three languages, and I still manages to spend time training in several competitive sports for international meets. At 6th I had some help with calculus for the first few weeks. Having someone explain it in a different way made it much easier to grasp. Sometimes a different approach is all that is needed to make it click.

Because if the situation I began one year in an american school that was teaching "new math" and greek make more sense. So glad when I was able to leave. The other classes were years too easy. American history was the only thing that was new, but the way the class was taught was boring, to tears. Read the book and could have taken the test within the month, but they dragged it out paragraph by paragraph.

My kids skated through without trying, no challenge for them.

Now schools are worse, much worse.

 

[initforme]

Time to send lowest of the low, p!us the violent kids, to private schools. They must accept all these kids and must create an individual education plan for each one. The teacher must cater to each individual student who cannot learn in a school environment.

 

[owebo]

Time to send lowest of the low, p!us the violent kids, to private schools. They must accept all these kids and must create an individual education plan for each one. The teacher must cater to each individual student who cannot learn in a school environment.

If they can afford it.....

 

[Flopper]

The other part of the problem is that where are all these private schools going to come from?

Right now, private schools make up only 9% of all students educated. To increase that, they'd have to invest in more buildings, hire more teachers, develop curriculums... How do you do that in a very short amount of time? How do you tell the fly-by-night scams from the good schools?

Also, how do you keep the people who are currently paying for their kids to get into the private schools from simply outbidding the voucher kids? Especially since they will be just as entitled to those vouchers?

I think the idea is that voucher programs will become such a huge success, new private schools will be popping everywhere. However, evidence so far shows that is certainly not the case.

There are some really serious obstacles to vouchers becoming a major part of our education system.

First, private school vouchers do not provide students and parents with real and meaningful choice. Most private schools where vouchers are offered have elected not to participate. Many of those that do participate have specialize in areas such as dropouts, ESL, gifted, etc. Many of the private schools that address mainstream students limit enrollment, allowing the school to select only the kind of students they want thus excluding many students. In a number of states, students currently attending private schools are allowed to apply for vouchers. In some districts as much as 90% of the vouchers go to students already enrolled in private schools.

Secondly, voucher programs don’t provide students and families with quality options. Studies consistently show that private school vouchers don't improve reading and math achievement. For example, in Milwaukee, Wisconsin – the country’s oldest voucher program – a recent study shows that the students in the voucher program do no better in reading or math than their peers in public schools. Similarly in Louisiana, 67% of public school students pass their standardized tests, whereas only 44% of voucher students do.
The Problems with Private School Vouchers | LFA: Join The Conversation - Public School Insights

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

The other part of the problem is that where are all these private schools going to come from?

Right now, private schools make up only 9% of all students educated. To increase that, they'd have to invest in more buildings, hire more teachers, develop curriculums... How do you do that in a very short amount of time? How do you tell the fly-by-night scams from the good schools?

Also, how do you keep the people who are currently paying for their kids to get into the private schools from simply outbidding the voucher kids? Especially since they will be just as entitled to those vouchers?

I think the idea is that voucher programs will become such a huge success, new private schools will be popping everywhere. However, evidence so far shows that is certainly not the case.

There are some really serious obstacles to vouchers becoming a major part of our education system.

First, private school vouchers do not provide students and parents with real and meaningful choice. Most private schools where vouchers are offered have elected not to participate. Many of those that do participate have specialize in areas such as dropouts, ESL, gifted, etc. Many of the private schools that address mainstream students limit enrollment, allowing the school to select only the kind of students they want thus excluding many students. In a number of states, students currently attending private schools are allowed to apply for vouchers. In some districts as much as 90% of the vouchers go to students already enrolled in private schools.

Secondly, voucher programs don’t provide students and families with quality options. Studies consistently show that private school vouchers don't improve reading and math achievement. For example, in Milwaukee, Wisconsin – the country’s oldest voucher program – a recent study shows that the students in the voucher program do no better in reading or math than their peers in public schools. Similarly in Louisiana, 67% of public school students pass their standardized tests, whereas only 44% of voucher students do.
The Problems with Private School Vouchers | LFA: Join The Conversation - Public School Insights

Vouchers can’t hurt

Widespread voucher usage could help make that economic surge happen. And for all the backlash, there is no serious downside to increasing vouchers. While vouchers have failed to transform struggling students into Harvard-bound prodigies, not one study has showed that vouchers students do worse than their economic peers in public schools, according to University of Arkansas education professor Patrick Wolf, a researcher on both the Washington and the Milwaukee studies.

“It’s either no significant difference or a positive effect,” says Wolf. He also notes that evidence supports the notion that vouchers boost academic outcomes more than other, less controversial reforms, such as class size reductions and additional mentoring.

Nor will vouchers hurt public schools: a March report by the Foundation for Educational Choice showed that in 18 out of 19 studies done on the impact of vouchers, public schools improved after the introduction of a voucher program.

Like all teens, low-income students have plenty to worry about: driving lessons, acneand whether it’s OK to like Justin Bieber or whether he’s strictly for the tween set. What they shouldn’t have to worry about is having access to good schools. It’s time to increase voucher availability, ensuring that all children, regardless of whether their parents flip burgers or manage hedge funds, have a chance to soar to the top.
Vouchers can’t hurt

Why school vouchers are worth a shot - USATODAY.com

 

[Flopper]

In choosing a charter school, it's critical that a parent match the school to the child because there are huge differences in charter school, much more so than in public schools. There is a wide array of charter school types. Charter schools may be specialized, either as to their program focus such as a STEM academy or students served such as prior drop-outs, though many simply serve mainstream populations with a distinct academic approach. There are charter schools in all sorts of settings – rural, urban, and suburban and even online charter schools providing distance-learning opportunities. Some charter schools operate as neighborhood schools, having turned-around or converted traditional district schools. I have seen charter schools that specialize in teaching homeless children, ESL students, and Special Ed. Like private schools and public schools, they can be very good or very bad.

Charter schools are the answer for some parents but not all. Only about 3% of the students across the country attend charter schools. California has the largest enrollment, 8%.

Perhaps, but vouchers are not limited to just charter schools. Some use religious schools and others use their vouchers for a different public school in an area where they don't live.

That all depends on state laws.
Voucher programs give parents a choice that they would not have otherwise but do they improve education?
In the 5 states with highest test scores in public schools, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Maine, New Jersey, and Vermont, only Vermont has a voucher program. The 5 states with the lowest test scores in public schools, New Mexico, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, and West Virginia, only Louisiana and Mississippi have voucher programs. None of these states with voucher programs shows any significant improvement in test scores over public schools in those states.

Looking at the 13 states that have voucher programs, areas in which test scores are in the bottom quartile, students on vouchers scored 5% higher than those in public schools. However, those in top two quartiles scored higher in public schools.

Bottom line is that voucher programs give parents a choice. In really bad schools, students can do better with vouchers, if the parents pick the right schools. However, in really good public schools, kids do better than than those on vouchers.
http://public-schools.startclass.com/stories/13054/states-ranked-test-scores#1-New-Mexico

However as I posted earlier, you have more graduates from private school (with vouchers) than public schools. That's an accomplishment right there if you had a chid failing in the public school.

In 2014, there 250,000 students participating in voucher programs. The expected graduation this school year is 3.2 million from public schools in the US and 300,000 from private schools. Unless we're not on the same page, there are over 10 times as many students graduating from public schools as there are vouchers issued in the US.
Fast Facts
School voucher - Wikipedia

But not with charter schools though. This is less of an issue of what does better as a whole than it is individual choice. You can go to areas (middle-class and upper-class suburbs) where the public schools have a fine history. We used to have that here where I live. Then pin that up against private school to get desired results. You won't get the same results if you put lower income city public school against private, and lower income schools are where most of those voucher kids are going to come from.

Charter Schools are nothing like private schools. Charter Schools are independently operated public schools started by parents, teachers, community organizations, and for-profit companies. These schools receive tax dollars, but the sponsoring group may also come up with private funding. Charter Schools do not charge tuition. They are also subject to most of the same laws and regulations that govern public schools. Unlike private schools, they are subject to the same disclosure requirements as public schools which include test scores, facility qualifications, and statistics related to discipline and crime. Most states require the same minimum level of training for teachers in Charter Schools as in public schools. Another difference is that most Charter Schools unlike private schools are usually specialized. For example, there are high school charter schools that specialized in math and science or the arts and there are those that cater to children of homeless parents, ESOL students, gifted students, students with learning disabilities and dropouts. Charter Schools are similar to private schools in that they have freedom in regard to curriculum and teaching methods.

You post hits on an interesting aspect of US education that does not exist in many of the countries that are said to have a better educational system than the US. In the US, the disparity between the best public schools and the worst is huge. This probably because the countries with the best test scores have highly centralized control of curriculum, funding, and achievement goals which is not the case in the US.

The states in the US with the best test scores, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Maine, New Jersey, and Vermont scored an average of 30% better than the worst states, New Mexico, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, and West Virginia. When you look at the best and worst school districts, the difference is even more startling.

In the US, only one of the top 5 states had a voucher program. 3 of the worst states had voucher systems. This accounts for much of the misunderstanding in the private vs public school battle. People that live in states with high performing public schools can't understand why people are so down on public schools in other parts of the country. People that live in the worst performing states tend to see all public schools in the US as under performing, mismanaged, and riddled with crime and discipline problems.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Perhaps, but vouchers are not limited to just charter schools. Some use religious schools and others use their vouchers for a different public school in an area where they don't live.

That all depends on state laws.
Voucher programs give parents a choice that they would not have otherwise but do they improve education?
In the 5 states with highest test scores in public schools, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Maine, New Jersey, and Vermont, only Vermont has a voucher program. The 5 states with the lowest test scores in public schools, New Mexico, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, and West Virginia, only Louisiana and Mississippi have voucher programs. None of these states with voucher programs shows any significant improvement in test scores over public schools in those states.

Looking at the 13 states that have voucher programs, areas in which test scores are in the bottom quartile, students on vouchers scored 5% higher than those in public schools. However, those in top two quartiles scored higher in public schools.

Bottom line is that voucher programs give parents a choice. In really bad schools, students can do better with vouchers, if the parents pick the right schools. However, in really good public schools, kids do better than than those on vouchers.
http://public-schools.startclass.com/stories/13054/states-ranked-test-scores#1-New-Mexico

However as I posted earlier, you have more graduates from private school (with vouchers) than public schools. That's an accomplishment right there if you had a chid failing in the public school.

In 2014, there 250,000 students participating in voucher programs. The expected graduation this school year is 3.2 million from public schools in the US and 300,000 from private schools. Unless we're not on the same page, there are over 10 times as many students graduating from public schools as there are vouchers issued in the US.
Fast Facts
School voucher - Wikipedia

But not with charter schools though. This is less of an issue of what does better as a whole than it is individual choice. You can go to areas (middle-class and upper-class suburbs) where the public schools have a fine history. We used to have that here where I live. Then pin that up against private school to get desired results. You won't get the same results if you put lower income city public school against private, and lower income schools are where most of those voucher kids are going to come from.

Charter Schools are nothing like private schools. Charter Schools are independently operated public schools started by parents, teachers, community organizations, and for-profit companies. These schools receive tax dollars, but the sponsoring group may also come up with private funding. Charter Schools do not charge tuition. They are also subject to most of the same laws and regulations that govern public schools. Unlike private schools, they are subject to the same disclosure requirements as public schools which include test scores, facility qualifications, and statistics related to discipline and crime. Most states require the same minimum level of training for teachers in Charter Schools as in public schools. Another difference is that most Charter Schools unlike private schools are usually specialized. For example, there are high school charter schools that specialized in math and science or the arts and there are those that cater to children of homeless parents, ESOL students, gifted students, students with learning disabilities and dropouts. Charter Schools are similar to private schools in that they have freedom in regard to curriculum and teaching methods.
You post hits on an interesting aspect of US education that does not exist in many of the countries that are said to have a better educational system than the US. The states in the US with the best test scores, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Maine, New Jersey, and Vermont scored an average of 30% better than the worst states, New Mexico, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, and West Virginia. When you look at the best and worst school districts, the difference is even more startling.

In the US, only one of the top 5 states had a voucher program. 3 of the worst states had voucher systems. This accounts for much of the misunderstanding in the private vs public school battle. People that live in states with high performing public schools can't understand why people are so down on public schools in other parts of the country. People that live in the worst performing states tend to see all public schools in the US as under performing, mismanaged, and riddled with crime and discipline problems.

Which is why it should boil down to an individual choice.

You are going to find different results depending on what study you use to determine which system is better. But I think that it should be evaluated by the parents when they make their choice. I can tell you of some great public schools in our suburbs here in Cleveland, and I can point to public schools that are falling apart with a large percentage of HS dropouts. It's all a matter of what city or state you are in, what availabilities you have, and of course, resources.

School X does better in math and science than school Y. Okay, but what about on an individual basis? Are the students that opted to attend school Y doing better than they were in school X? That's the most important question.

Even if a kid goes from a D to a C average because of vouchers, isn't that worth the money to keep them and even expand them? While it may be the rest of his or her classmates in school X are doing better than his new school Y, would that be a good reason to stop him from attending if he or she is individually doing better?

 

[Flopper]

That all depends on state laws.
Voucher programs give parents a choice that they would not have otherwise but do they improve education?
In the 5 states with highest test scores in public schools, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Maine, New Jersey, and Vermont, only Vermont has a voucher program. The 5 states with the lowest test scores in public schools, New Mexico, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, and West Virginia, only Louisiana and Mississippi have voucher programs. None of these states with voucher programs shows any significant improvement in test scores over public schools in those states.

Looking at the 13 states that have voucher programs, areas in which test scores are in the bottom quartile, students on vouchers scored 5% higher than those in public schools. However, those in top two quartiles scored higher in public schools.

Bottom line is that voucher programs give parents a choice. In really bad schools, students can do better with vouchers, if the parents pick the right schools. However, in really good public schools, kids do better than than those on vouchers.
http://public-schools.startclass.com/stories/13054/states-ranked-test-scores#1-New-Mexico

However as I posted earlier, you have more graduates from private school (with vouchers) than public schools. That's an accomplishment right there if you had a chid failing in the public school.

In 2014, there 250,000 students participating in voucher programs. The expected graduation this school year is 3.2 million from public schools in the US and 300,000 from private schools. Unless we're not on the same page, there are over 10 times as many students graduating from public schools as there are vouchers issued in the US.
Fast Facts
School voucher - Wikipedia

But not with charter schools though. This is less of an issue of what does better as a whole than it is individual choice. You can go to areas (middle-class and upper-class suburbs) where the public schools have a fine history. We used to have that here where I live. Then pin that up against private school to get desired results. You won't get the same results if you put lower income city public school against private, and lower income schools are where most of those voucher kids are going to come from.

Charter Schools are nothing like private schools. Charter Schools are independently operated public schools started by parents, teachers, community organizations, and for-profit companies. These schools receive tax dollars, but the sponsoring group may also come up with private funding. Charter Schools do not charge tuition. They are also subject to most of the same laws and regulations that govern public schools. Unlike private schools, they are subject to the same disclosure requirements as public schools which include test scores, facility qualifications, and statistics related to discipline and crime. Most states require the same minimum level of training for teachers in Charter Schools as in public schools. Another difference is that most Charter Schools unlike private schools are usually specialized. For example, there are high school charter schools that specialized in math and science or the arts and there are those that cater to children of homeless parents, ESOL students, gifted students, students with learning disabilities and dropouts. Charter Schools are similar to private schools in that they have freedom in regard to curriculum and teaching methods.
You post hits on an interesting aspect of US education that does not exist in many of the countries that are said to have a better educational system than the US. The states in the US with the best test scores, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Maine, New Jersey, and Vermont scored an average of 30% better than the worst states, New Mexico, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, and West Virginia. When you look at the best and worst school districts, the difference is even more startling.

In the US, only one of the top 5 states had a voucher program. 3 of the worst states had voucher systems. This accounts for much of the misunderstanding in the private vs public school battle. People that live in states with high performing public schools can't understand why people are so down on public schools in other parts of the country. People that live in the worst performing states tend to see all public schools in the US as under performing, mismanaged, and riddled with crime and discipline problems.

Which is why it should boil down to an individual choice.

You are going to find different results depending on what study you use to determine which system is better. But I think that it should be evaluated by the parents when they make their choice. I can tell you of some great public schools in our suburbs here in Cleveland, and I can point to public schools that are falling apart with a large percentage of HS dropouts. It's all a matter of what city or state you are in, what availabilities you have, and of course, resources.

School X does better in math and science than school Y. Okay, but what about on an individual basis? Are the students that opted to attend school Y doing better than they were in school X? That's the most important question.

Even if a kid goes from a D to a C average because of vouchers, isn't that worth the money to keep them and even expand them? While it may be the rest of his or her classmates in school X are doing better than his new school Y, would that be a good reason to stop him from attending if he or she is individually doing better?

I actually believe vouchers are good option in districts, not states where public schools are failing badly, not because I believe parents will be able to chose the best alternative but because some districts are so poorly managed or underfunded that improvement is just not possible and just about anything parents chose would be an improvement. When the situation is that bad parents should be given an option.

However, I think most parents are no better at choosing the best school for their kids than they are choosing the best shoes. It is not at all clear that parents chose schools primarily on the basis of academic effectiveness. School uniforms, the demographics of a school, and sports programs are easier to observe, and parents often consider these, along with religious values, to be more important than the quality of academic instruction This has been shown consistently in studies of parents’ school-choice behavior.

 

[Wyatt earp]

Yeah it was so cool to see Finland land a man on the moon and all the so many more inventions they had then the U.S.A.

That has nothing to do with their current education system. Japan and and India didn't send a man on the moon either but they are still outperforming American kids in science and maths.

Fact remains Finland has a better education system than ours. Children only attend school 5 hours a day. And they have reasonable breaktimes.

And what's up with this 5 hour stuff?

So what you are telling us is they are teaching the three R's and not this liberal mumbo jumbo stuff?

.

Schools in America never stopped teaching three r's. But when you have overcrowded classrooms with children who don't take school seriously because their parents haven't instilled a school work ethic in them, reading and math skills go down the drain.

So you don't want to address the elephant in the room?


And why is that? What happened in America the past 50 plus years?


.

A lot of things happened in the past 50 years. What exactly are you referring to?

The biggest thing, liberalism taking over.


.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

However as I posted earlier, you have more graduates from private school (with vouchers) than public schools. That's an accomplishment right there if you had a chid failing in the public school.

In 2014, there 250,000 students participating in voucher programs. The expected graduation this school year is 3.2 million from public schools in the US and 300,000 from private schools. Unless we're not on the same page, there are over 10 times as many students graduating from public schools as there are vouchers issued in the US.
Fast Facts
School voucher - Wikipedia

But not with charter schools though. This is less of an issue of what does better as a whole than it is individual choice. You can go to areas (middle-class and upper-class suburbs) where the public schools have a fine history. We used to have that here where I live. Then pin that up against private school to get desired results. You won't get the same results if you put lower income city public school against private, and lower income schools are where most of those voucher kids are going to come from.

Charter Schools are nothing like private schools. Charter Schools are independently operated public schools started by parents, teachers, community organizations, and for-profit companies. These schools receive tax dollars, but the sponsoring group may also come up with private funding. Charter Schools do not charge tuition. They are also subject to most of the same laws and regulations that govern public schools. Unlike private schools, they are subject to the same disclosure requirements as public schools which include test scores, facility qualifications, and statistics related to discipline and crime. Most states require the same minimum level of training for teachers in Charter Schools as in public schools. Another difference is that most Charter Schools unlike private schools are usually specialized. For example, there are high school charter schools that specialized in math and science or the arts and there are those that cater to children of homeless parents, ESOL students, gifted students, students with learning disabilities and dropouts. Charter Schools are similar to private schools in that they have freedom in regard to curriculum and teaching methods.
You post hits on an interesting aspect of US education that does not exist in many of the countries that are said to have a better educational system than the US. The states in the US with the best test scores, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Maine, New Jersey, and Vermont scored an average of 30% better than the worst states, New Mexico, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, and West Virginia. When you look at the best and worst school districts, the difference is even more startling.

In the US, only one of the top 5 states had a voucher program. 3 of the worst states had voucher systems. This accounts for much of the misunderstanding in the private vs public school battle. People that live in states with high performing public schools can't understand why people are so down on public schools in other parts of the country. People that live in the worst performing states tend to see all public schools in the US as under performing, mismanaged, and riddled with crime and discipline problems.

Which is why it should boil down to an individual choice.

You are going to find different results depending on what study you use to determine which system is better. But I think that it should be evaluated by the parents when they make their choice. I can tell you of some great public schools in our suburbs here in Cleveland, and I can point to public schools that are falling apart with a large percentage of HS dropouts. It's all a matter of what city or state you are in, what availabilities you have, and of course, resources.

School X does better in math and science than school Y. Okay, but what about on an individual basis? Are the students that opted to attend school Y doing better than they were in school X? That's the most important question.

Even if a kid goes from a D to a C average because of vouchers, isn't that worth the money to keep them and even expand them? While it may be the rest of his or her classmates in school X are doing better than his new school Y, would that be a good reason to stop him from attending if he or she is individually doing better?

I actually believe vouchers are good option in districts, not states where public schools are failing badly, not because I believe parents will be able to chose the best alternative but because some districts are so poorly managed or underfunded that improvement is just not possible and just about anything parents chose would be an improvement. When the situation is that bad parents should be given an option.

However, I think most parents are no better at choosing the best school for their kids than they are choosing the best shoes. It is not at all clear that parents chose schools primarily on the basis of academic effectiveness. School uniforms, the demographics of a school, and sports programs are easier to observe, and parents often consider these, along with religious values, to be more important than the quality of academic instruction This has been shown consistently in studies of parents’ school-choice behavior.

So if you really believe that parents are not responsible for making the decisions on behalf of their children, you think government can?

 

[JoeB131]

Yeah, because public schools are clean on that too, or is only the gay sex you object to?

Instapundit » Search Results » teach women not to rape

Plus, most Parishonal schools are separating themselves from the parish, and being run by Laity through the Diocese, it's almost as if they are expecting some form of Voucher reform...

Here's the thing. When a female Public School Teacher makes every 14 year old boy's dream come true, she gets her ass fired.

When a Catholic Priest puts a kid in therapy for the rest of his life, the Catholic Church moves the pervert to another parish. and another. And another.

 

[JoeB131]

That you are a bitter miserable person has nothing to do with the countless other people who turned out just fine when a little discipline and shame were applied to their upbringing.

And the current situation where Teachers are scared shitless of their own students is SOOOOO much better.

Yeah, good times.

Like when that Nun said God had a good reason for my mom to die.
And when another nun said God Drowned every baby in the world because they were wicked.

Uh, guy, that kind of shit is all sorts of fucked up. Thank God it's cool to be a lesbian today and the Church can't fuck these women up and unleash them on kids anymore.

Fuck the Catholic CHurch.

 

[owebo]

Yeah, because public schools are clean on that too, or is only the gay sex you object to?

Instapundit » Search Results » teach women not to rape

Plus, most Parishonal schools are separating themselves from the parish, and being run by Laity through the Diocese, it's almost as if they are expecting some form of Voucher reform...

Here's the thing. When a female Public School Teacher makes every 14 year old boy's dream come true, she gets her ass fired.

When a Catholic Priest puts a kid in therapy for the rest of his life, the Catholic Church moves the pervert to another parish. and another. And another.

Then there are your political heroes at orgy island.....

 

[JoeB131]

Universally speaking, I believe public schools do better. The issue I have specifically is in the case of public schools that underperform, are dangerous, and/or aged facilities. Parents don't want their kids to have to go to that school yet may not have access to finances to send their kids to private schools. Vouchers enable that.

Not really. All they do is create a larger pool for the Private schools to choose from, but they still end up picking the kids who are easiest to teach.

 

[martybegan]

Yeah, because public schools are clean on that too, or is only the gay sex you object to?

Instapundit » Search Results » teach women not to rape

Plus, most Parishonal schools are separating themselves from the parish, and being run by Laity through the Diocese, it's almost as if they are expecting some form of Voucher reform...

Here's the thing. When a female Public School Teacher makes every 14 year old boy's dream come true, she gets her ass fired.

When a Catholic Priest puts a kid in therapy for the rest of his life, the Catholic Church moves the pervert to another parish. and another. And another.

Sort of what they did at US gymnastics then. got it.

You take your hard on for organized religion or religion in general and then look for things to reinforce your own bigotry.

 

[martybegan]

That you are a bitter miserable person has nothing to do with the countless other people who turned out just fine when a little discipline and shame were applied to their upbringing.

And the current situation where Teachers are scared shitless of their own students is SOOOOO much better.

Yeah, good times.

Like when that Nun said God had a good reason for my mom to die.
And when another nun said God Drowned every baby in the world because they were wicked.

Uh, guy, that kind of shit is all sorts of fucked up. Thank God it's cool to be a lesbian today and the Church can't fuck these women up and unleash them on kids anymore.

Fuck the Catholic CHurch.

Fuck yourself right back, bigot.

Oh wah wah, someone was mean to me.....

 

[JoeB131]

Sort of what they did at US gymnastics then. got it.

You take your hard on for organized religion or religion in general and then look for things to reinforce your own bigotry.

We were talking about schools, not US Gymnastics... whatever that is.

Fuck yourself right back, bigot.

Oh wah wah, someone was mean to me.....

Hey, the only thing keeping your sick ass church alive is that the Catholic Church is smuggling in lots of Illegals to fill those pews with asses.

Trumpenfuhrer is going to fix that one, really quick.