Republicans to target unions, expand school choice in states

[Nia88]

If you give a poor kid a voucher, it doesn't fix all the other problems.

The other end of it is that school choice usually means that the charter or private school cherry picks the kids they want. I went to Catholic Schools in the 1970's. You know what happened to the kids who were trouble makers, who had learning disabilities, etc.

They got fobbed off on the public schools.

So, no, taking money from the Public Schools and giving them to private schools doesn't really fix the problem.

You hit the nail on the head.


Immigrant children excel in the same public school American children have but the difference is their parents instill the importance of education in them. They don't allow their kids to bring home Cs.

Conservatives don't how important the public school education is. The focus should be on bettering them. In Finland their teachers are treated like doctors. They have to have masters degrees and education is give top priority in terms of budget.

Yeah it was so cool to see Finland land a man on the moon and all the so many more inventions they had then the U.S.A.

That has nothing to do with their current education system. Japan and and India didn't send a man on the moon either but they are still outperforming American kids in science and maths.

Fact remains Finland has a better education system than ours. Children only attend school 5 hours a day. And they have reasonable breaktimes.

 

[Nia88]

Have you ever taught a class with 39 kids; I have. In such an environment, kids that need any extra help don't get. There is not enough class time to cover the material and have any interaction with the kids. Most teachers in that environment, hardly even know their students. On parent teacher night, a parent wants to discuss the problem Johnny is having in math and you can't remember which Johnny is their son. Thankfully, I only had to spend two years teaching in the zoo. Frankly, I wish every parent had the opportunity to teach an overloaded class of 3rd graders.

In private schools, larger class sizes may well be tolerable since the school has the opportunity to select their students, no special ed kids, no juvenile delinquents, no kids that can't speak English, no kids that are 3 grade levels behind. Public schools have to take whatever walks in the door.

why don't you extend the class times then? why are you against an eight hour class schedule?

Extending school hours will do nothing. If you have 30+ kids in the class it is impossible to help all especially if you don't have an assistant. Smaller classrooms are the key to quality education. Especially the younger they are.

that's merely a cop out. Then the class schedule is bad. The teacher is then bad. dude, why is it majorities can learn in the environment and minorities don't seem to? Extra time gives the ability to go to those who need help right?

Ok. So how about you teach a class of 30+ 1st graders and see how easy it is.

Class size needs to be smaller. Not hours extended. High school students may be able to handle an eight hour school day but definitely not elementary and middle schoolers.

Why not? When I was in elementary and middle school, we had the same hours as high schoolers.

And how many hours in total did you go to school?

 

[frigidweirdo]

My son excelled in a charter school and is now an engineer. My 1 st daughter was entered into a charter school starting g kindergarten and was reading three grades above her class level in 1st grade.

Sent from my YD206 using USMessageBoard.com mobile app

In choosing a charter school, it's critical that a parent match the school to the child because there are huge differences in charter school, much more so than in public schools. There is a wide array of charter school types. Charter schools may be specialized, either as to their program focus such as a STEM academy or students served such as prior drop-outs, though many simply serve mainstream populations with a distinct academic approach. There are charter schools in all sorts of settings – rural, urban, and suburban and even online charter schools providing distance-learning opportunities. Some charter schools operate as neighborhood schools, having turned-around or converted traditional district schools. I have seen charter schools that specialize in teaching homeless children, ESL students, and Special Ed. Like private schools and public schools, they can be very good or very bad.

Charter schools are the answer for some parents but not all. Only about 3% of the students across the country attend charter schools. California has the largest enrollment, 8%.

Perhaps, but vouchers are not limited to just charter schools. Some use religious schools and others use their vouchers for a different public school in an area where they don't live.

That all depends on state laws.
Voucher programs give parents a choice that they would not have otherwise but do they improve education?
In the 5 states with highest test scores in public schools, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Maine, New Jersey, and Vermont, only Vermont has a voucher program. The 5 states with the lowest test scores in public schools, New Mexico, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, and West Virginia, only Louisiana and Mississippi have voucher programs. None of these states with voucher programs shows any significant improvement in test scores over public schools in those states.

Looking at the 13 states that have voucher programs, areas in which test scores are in the bottom quartile, students on vouchers scored 5% higher than those in public schools. However, those in top two quartiles scored higher in public schools.

Bottom line is that voucher programs give parents a choice. In really bad schools, students can do better with vouchers, if the parents pick the right schools. However, in really good public schools, kids do better than than those on vouchers.
http://public-schools.startclass.com/stories/13054/states-ranked-test-scores#1-New-Mexico

However as I posted earlier, you have more graduates from private school (with vouchers) than public schools. That's an accomplishment right there if you had a chid failing in the public school.

The problem here is that you are making too many assumptions.

Firstly, just because a kid goes to private school, doesn't mean they'll succeed. But generally the reasons for kids to succeed in private schools is more down to other factors than the school itself.

Rich people are more likely to be intelligent, and therefore pass off their genes to their offspring.
Rich people are more likely to live in stable families which help kids.
Rich people are more likely to buy better food which in turn helps their kids study better.
Rich people are more likely to understand the impact of education on children as they probably had a better education than poorer people.

Generalizations of course. I knew a rich kid whose mother died when he was young and shipped off to private school because he father didn't have a clue and he did worse than me and I went to a not very good school. However I did have a stable family, did have average to above average genes, did eat healthy food etc.

 

[frigidweirdo]

If you give a poor kid a voucher, it doesn't fix all the other problems.

The other end of it is that school choice usually means that the charter or private school cherry picks the kids they want. I went to Catholic Schools in the 1970's. You know what happened to the kids who were trouble makers, who had learning disabilities, etc.

They got fobbed off on the public schools.

So, no, taking money from the Public Schools and giving them to private schools doesn't really fix the problem.

You hit the nail on the head.


Immigrant children excel in the same public school American children have but the difference is their parents instill the importance of education in them. They don't allow their kids to bring home Cs.

Conservatives don't how important the public school education is. The focus should be on bettering them. In Finland their teachers are treated like doctors. They have to have masters degrees and education is give top priority in terms of budget.

Yeah it was so cool to see Finland land a man on the moon and all the so many more inventions they had then the U.S.A.

More to do with size of country than anything else. A population of 5.4 million people, compared to a population of 300 million.

Their GDP per capita is $42,000 which is not bad at all, but yet their GDP overall is much smaller than the US's because they have a much smaller population size, which then reduces the amount of spare cash hanging around to send people to the moon. They are part of the EU which has done quite a lot of things, and many people do go off to Finland to go study at their universities.

 

[Wyatt earp]

If you give a poor kid a voucher, it doesn't fix all the other problems.

The other end of it is that school choice usually means that the charter or private school cherry picks the kids they want. I went to Catholic Schools in the 1970's. You know what happened to the kids who were trouble makers, who had learning disabilities, etc.

They got fobbed off on the public schools.

So, no, taking money from the Public Schools and giving them to private schools doesn't really fix the problem.

You hit the nail on the head.


Immigrant children excel in the same public school American children have but the difference is their parents instill the importance of education in them. They don't allow their kids to bring home Cs.

Conservatives don't how important the public school education is. The focus should be on bettering them. In Finland their teachers are treated like doctors. They have to have masters degrees and education is give top priority in terms of budget.

Yeah it was so cool to see Finland land a man on the moon and all the so many more inventions they had then the U.S.A.

That has nothing to do with their current education system. Japan and and India didn't send a man on the moon either but they are still outperforming American kids in science and maths.

Fact remains Finland has a better education system than ours. Children only attend school 5 hours a day. And they have reasonable breaktimes.

Again what's the fucking point? Do they know how to change a tire off a rim with just using a car, a ramp and some lube?

Do they know how to blow up a tire with out an air compressor or air pump?


People in socialist country's don't know any fucking better, they are used to being controlled sheep.


Give them a 3 month tax holiday and then reinstate the taxes..


Watch them riot watch them revolt, when they finally figure out how much they really pay.


.

 

[Wyatt earp]

If you give a poor kid a voucher, it doesn't fix all the other problems.

The other end of it is that school choice usually means that the charter or private school cherry picks the kids they want. I went to Catholic Schools in the 1970's. You know what happened to the kids who were trouble makers, who had learning disabilities, etc.

They got fobbed off on the public schools.

So, no, taking money from the Public Schools and giving them to private schools doesn't really fix the problem.

You hit the nail on the head.


Immigrant children excel in the same public school American children have but the difference is their parents instill the importance of education in them. They don't allow their kids to bring home Cs.

Conservatives don't how important the public school education is. The focus should be on bettering them. In Finland their teachers are treated like doctors. They have to have masters degrees and education is give top priority in terms of budget.

Yeah it was so cool to see Finland land a man on the moon and all the so many more inventions they had then the U.S.A.

That has nothing to do with their current education system. Japan and and India didn't send a man on the moon either but they are still outperforming American kids in science and maths.

Fact remains Finland has a better education system than ours. Children only attend school 5 hours a day. And they have reasonable breaktimes.

And what's up with this 5 hour stuff?

So what you are telling us is they are teaching the three R's and not this liberal mumbo jumbo stuff?

.

 

[JoeB131]

I grew up in the district and now live in a neighboring state. Show US how vouchers did not improve education in the district yet the highest cost per pupil in the US is somehow yielding better results??

The stark reality is that the NEA Union does not like vouchers because it means less money for their coffers and cronies. I'll bet you'll site some NEA or NEA proxy study saying vouchers don't work?

Well, unfortunately, they are the only ones who've done studies on the subject.

D.C. School Voucher Plan Failing to Meet Goals

Only 75 of the 1,300 students who used a federal government voucher last year in the District of Columbia came from schools designated as "in need of improvement," according to the 2005 report by the People for the American Way (PFAW).

• More than 200 students already enrolled in private schools have received vouchers.
• So few students applied for vouchers that the voucher program cannot be evaluated this year by comparing the performance of students who are using vouchers with that of those students who sought but could not get vouchers, although the voucher law requires that such a comparison be made.

Vouchers don't do much for students

Nationwide, many schools participating in voucher programs infuse religion through their curriculum. Zack Kopplin, a student activist who favors rigorous science education, has found more than 300 voucher schools across the U.S. that teach the Biblical story of creation as science; some also instruct children that the world is just several thousand years old and use textbooks describing the Loch Ness Monster as a living dinosaur. Parents at one such school in Louisiana received a newsletter calling secular scientists “sinful men.”

 

[Nia88]

If you give a poor kid a voucher, it doesn't fix all the other problems.

The other end of it is that school choice usually means that the charter or private school cherry picks the kids they want. I went to Catholic Schools in the 1970's. You know what happened to the kids who were trouble makers, who had learning disabilities, etc.

They got fobbed off on the public schools.

So, no, taking money from the Public Schools and giving them to private schools doesn't really fix the problem.

You hit the nail on the head.


Immigrant children excel in the same public school American children have but the difference is their parents instill the importance of education in them. They don't allow their kids to bring home Cs.

Conservatives don't how important the public school education is. The focus should be on bettering them. In Finland their teachers are treated like doctors. They have to have masters degrees and education is give top priority in terms of budget.

Yeah it was so cool to see Finland land a man on the moon and all the so many more inventions they had then the U.S.A.

That has nothing to do with their current education system. Japan and and India didn't send a man on the moon either but they are still outperforming American kids in science and maths.

Fact remains Finland has a better education system than ours. Children only attend school 5 hours a day. And they have reasonable breaktimes.

And what's up with this 5 hour stuff?

So what you are telling us is they are teaching the three R's and not this liberal mumbo jumbo stuff?

.

Schools in America never stopped teaching three r's. But when you have overcrowded classrooms with children who don't take school seriously because their parents haven't instilled a school work ethic in them, reading and math skills go down the drain.

 

[Wyatt earp]

If you give a poor kid a voucher, it doesn't fix all the other problems.

The other end of it is that school choice usually means that the charter or private school cherry picks the kids they want. I went to Catholic Schools in the 1970's. You know what happened to the kids who were trouble makers, who had learning disabilities, etc.

They got fobbed off on the public schools.

So, no, taking money from the Public Schools and giving them to private schools doesn't really fix the problem.

You hit the nail on the head.


Immigrant children excel in the same public school American children have but the difference is their parents instill the importance of education in them. They don't allow their kids to bring home Cs.

Conservatives don't how important the public school education is. The focus should be on bettering them. In Finland their teachers are treated like doctors. They have to have masters degrees and education is give top priority in terms of budget.

Yeah it was so cool to see Finland land a man on the moon and all the so many more inventions they had then the U.S.A.

That has nothing to do with their current education system. Japan and and India didn't send a man on the moon either but they are still outperforming American kids in science and maths.

Fact remains Finland has a better education system than ours. Children only attend school 5 hours a day. And they have reasonable breaktimes.

And what's up with this 5 hour stuff?

So what you are telling us is they are teaching the three R's and not this liberal mumbo jumbo stuff?

.

Schools in America never stopped teaching three r's. But when you have overcrowded classrooms with children who don't take school seriously because their parents haven't instilled a school work ethic in them, reading and math skills go down the drain.

So you don't want to address the elephant in the room?


And why is that? What happened in America the past 50 plus years?


.

 

[Nia88]

You hit the nail on the head.


Immigrant children excel in the same public school American children have but the difference is their parents instill the importance of education in them. They don't allow their kids to bring home Cs.

Conservatives don't how important the public school education is. The focus should be on bettering them. In Finland their teachers are treated like doctors. They have to have masters degrees and education is give top priority in terms of budget.

Yeah it was so cool to see Finland land a man on the moon and all the so many more inventions they had then the U.S.A.

That has nothing to do with their current education system. Japan and and India didn't send a man on the moon either but they are still outperforming American kids in science and maths.

Fact remains Finland has a better education system than ours. Children only attend school 5 hours a day. And they have reasonable breaktimes.

And what's up with this 5 hour stuff?

So what you are telling us is they are teaching the three R's and not this liberal mumbo jumbo stuff?

.

Schools in America never stopped teaching three r's. But when you have overcrowded classrooms with children who don't take school seriously because their parents haven't instilled a school work ethic in them, reading and math skills go down the drain.

So you don't want to address the elephant in the room?


And why is that? What happened in America the past 50 plus years?


.

A lot of things happened in the past 50 years. What exactly are you referring to?

 

[Flopper]

My son excelled in a charter school and is now an engineer. My 1 st daughter was entered into a charter school starting g kindergarten and was reading three grades above her class level in 1st grade.

Sent from my YD206 using USMessageBoard.com mobile app

In choosing a charter school, it's critical that a parent match the school to the child because there are huge differences in charter school, much more so than in public schools. There is a wide array of charter school types. Charter schools may be specialized, either as to their program focus such as a STEM academy or students served such as prior drop-outs, though many simply serve mainstream populations with a distinct academic approach. There are charter schools in all sorts of settings – rural, urban, and suburban and even online charter schools providing distance-learning opportunities. Some charter schools operate as neighborhood schools, having turned-around or converted traditional district schools. I have seen charter schools that specialize in teaching homeless children, ESL students, and Special Ed. Like private schools and public schools, they can be very good or very bad.

Charter schools are the answer for some parents but not all. Only about 3% of the students across the country attend charter schools. California has the largest enrollment, 8%.

Perhaps, but vouchers are not limited to just charter schools. Some use religious schools and others use their vouchers for a different public school in an area where they don't live.

That all depends on state laws.
Voucher programs give parents a choice that they would not have otherwise but do they improve education?
In the 5 states with highest test scores in public schools, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Maine, New Jersey, and Vermont, only Vermont has a voucher program. The 5 states with the lowest test scores in public schools, New Mexico, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, and West Virginia, only Louisiana and Mississippi have voucher programs. None of these states with voucher programs shows any significant improvement in test scores over public schools in those states.

Looking at the 13 states that have voucher programs, areas in which test scores are in the bottom quartile, students on vouchers scored 5% higher than those in public schools. However, those in top two quartiles scored higher in public schools.

Bottom line is that voucher programs give parents a choice. In really bad schools, students can do better with vouchers, if the parents pick the right schools. However, in really good public schools, kids do better than than those on vouchers.
http://public-schools.startclass.com/stories/13054/states-ranked-test-scores#1-New-Mexico

However as I posted earlier, you have more graduates from private school (with vouchers) than public schools. That's an accomplishment right there if you had a chid failing in the public school.

In 2014, there 250,000 students participating in voucher programs. The expected graduation this school year is 3.2 million from public schools in the US and 300,000 from private schools. Unless we're not on the same page, there are over 10 times as many students graduating from public schools as there are vouchers issued in the US.
Fast Facts
School voucher - Wikipedia

 

[Flopper]

I grew up in the district and now live in a neighboring state. Show US how vouchers did not improve education in the district yet the highest cost per pupil in the US is somehow yielding better results??

The stark reality is that the NEA Union does not like vouchers because it means less money for their coffers and cronies. I'll bet you'll site some NEA or NEA proxy study saying vouchers don't work?

Well, unfortunately, they are the only ones who've done studies on the subject.

D.C. School Voucher Plan Failing to Meet Goals

Only 75 of the 1,300 students who used a federal government voucher last year in the District of Columbia came from schools designated as "in need of improvement," according to the 2005 report by the People for the American Way (PFAW).

• More than 200 students already enrolled in private schools have received vouchers.
• So few students applied for vouchers that the voucher program cannot be evaluated this year by comparing the performance of students who are using vouchers with that of those students who sought but could not get vouchers, although the voucher law requires that such a comparison be made.

Vouchers don't do much for students

Nationwide, many schools participating in voucher programs infuse religion through their curriculum. Zack Kopplin, a student activist who favors rigorous science education, has found more than 300 voucher schools across the U.S. that teach the Biblical story of creation as science; some also instruct children that the world is just several thousand years old and use textbooks describing the Loch Ness Monster as a living dinosaur. Parents at one such school in Louisiana received a newsletter calling secular scientists “sinful men.”

The widespread assumption in the US is that private schools do a better job educating children than public schools, but there is quite a bit of evidence to the contrary. One of the most comprehensive studies ever performed of school type and achievement in mathematics, a subject widely held to be the best measure of in-school learning showed public schools out performed private. Researchers in this study analyzed instruction and performance for over 300,000 elementary and middle school students in 15,108 public, charter, and private schools. The results left no doubt that public schools were performing much better than non-public schools.
Are private schools better than public schools? New book says ‘no’

 

[JoeB131]

The widespread assumption in the US is that private schools do a better job educating children than public schools, but there is quite a bit of evidence to the contrary. One of the most comprehensive studies ever performed of school type and achievement in mathematics, a subject widely held to be the best measure of in-school learning showed public schools out performed private. Researchers in this study analyzed instruction and performance for over 300,000 elementary and middle school students in 15,108 public, charter, and private schools. The results left no doubt that public schools were performing much better than non-public schools.

I think the problem is that the vouchers crowd doesn't understand that correlation doesn't equal causality.

I went to Catholic Schools, and while I have a lot of criticism of the Church (I ran away from it in a serpentine pattern in the 1980's) they did an okay job on the stuff not involving magic fairies in the sky.

But the thing was, - my parents were involved. They put up their own money, and they made sure I was doing my homework and understood the material.

Will the parent who gets a voucher make the same commitment? Or will they say,"Hey, it's a little nicer" and call it a day?

 

[JoeB131]

The other part of the problem is that where are all these private schools going to come from?

Right now, private schools make up only 9% of all students educated. To increase that, they'd have to invest in more buildings, hire more teachers, develop curriculums... How do you do that in a very short amount of time? How do you tell the fly-by-night scams from the good schools?

Also, how do you keep the people who are currently paying for their kids to get into the private schools from simply outbidding the voucher kids? Especially since they will be just as entitled to those vouchers?

 

[martybegan]

The other part of the problem is that where are all these private schools going to come from?

Right now, private schools make up only 9% of all students educated. To increase that, they'd have to invest in more buildings, hire more teachers, develop curriculums... How do you do that in a very short amount of time? How do you tell the fly-by-night scams from the good schools?

Also, how do you keep the people who are currently paying for their kids to get into the private schools from simply outbidding the voucher kids? Especially since they will be just as entitled to those vouchers?

In NYC they are closing tons of Catholic Schools due to low enrollment. Plenty of infrastructure available.

And the Idea isn't to replace public education, the idea is to make it better by giving it viable competitor.

 

[martybegan]

The other part of the problem is that where are all these private schools going to come from?

Right now, private schools make up only 9% of all students educated. To increase that, they'd have to invest in more buildings, hire more teachers, develop curriculums... How do you do that in a very short amount of time? How do you tell the fly-by-night scams from the good schools?

Also, how do you keep the people who are currently paying for their kids to get into the private schools from simply outbidding the voucher kids? Especially since they will be just as entitled to those vouchers?

Private schools can set their own rules, i.e., if your kids act up, it's Nun+Ruler time.

 

[JoeB131]

In NYC they are closing tons of Catholic Schools due to low enrollment. Plenty of infrastructure available.

And the Idea isn't to replace public education, the idea is to make it better by giving it viable competitor.

Well, yeah, when you let priests bone kids up the ass, you will have a drop in enrollment, for some reason.

Not sure why you are so keen on getting more kids in that system.

 

[JoeB131]

Private schools can set their own rules, i.e., if your kids act up, it's Nun+Ruler time.

Actually, that was pretty fucked up. I mean, the kid might grow up to be a religion hating atheist who mocks religion at every opportunity.

Oh, wait, that totally happened.

Hey, I remember when one of those fucked up old frustrated lesbians told me God had a good reason for my mom to die. Fucking hilarious.

 

[martybegan]

In NYC they are closing tons of Catholic Schools due to low enrollment. Plenty of infrastructure available.

And the Idea isn't to replace public education, the idea is to make it better by giving it viable competitor.

Well, yeah, when you let priests bone kids up the ass, you will have a drop in enrollment, for some reason.

Not sure why you are so keen on getting more kids in that system.

Yeah, because public schools are clean on that too, or is only the gay sex you object to?

Instapundit » Search Results » teach women not to rape

Plus, most Parishonal schools are separating themselves from the parish, and being run by Laity through the Diocese, it's almost as if they are expecting some form of Voucher reform...

 

[martybegan]

Private schools can set their own rules, i.e., if your kids act up, it's Nun+Ruler time.

Actually, that was pretty fucked up. I mean, the kid might grow up to be a religion hating atheist who mocks religion at every opportunity.

Oh, wait, that totally happened.

Hey, I remember when one of those fucked up old frustrated lesbians told me God had a good reason for my mom to die. Fucking hilarious.

That you are a bitter miserable person has nothing to do with the countless other people who turned out just fine when a little discipline and shame were applied to their upbringing.

And the current situation where Teachers are scared shitless of their own students is SOOOOO much better.