Respected Kuwaiti Scholar on NECESSITY of Beating Your Wife

[Osomir]

I'll check back in tomorrow night to see what you come up with and to give you a more point by point response to your video since you desire it.

And while you're at it, detail your experience, education and training that give you the authority to speak for Islam.

I don't speak for Islam, I merely have my own opinions.

Academically, I have a dual degree in Economics and Political Science with a minor in Public Administration and concentration in Islamic history. I also have a masters in international affairs with a dual concentration in economic development and conflict. While getting my masters I took free electives in the construction of Shariah law sets.

Within the realm of conflict I specialize in Islamic terrorism, which is where my studying of and knowledge of Islam stems from (aside from a general love of theology), and am published academically in both the subjects of Islamic terrorism, and economic development.

My graduate thesis was an econometric analysis of women's rights in economic development (so I focused primarily on Africa, the Middle East, and Central Asia).

Professionally, I did print journalism for seven years. I started off initially in the central Asia region (with Burma and Daw Aung San Suu Kyi's and the NLD's struggle for democracy there), before focusing primarily On international conflict and development (sort of my niche). My primary focus was on Africa, though I covered anything terrorism related in the Middle East and Africa regions, as well as the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

After that I did consulting work on Middle Eastern and African issues and institutions for a university that was setting up an international affairs program. I also worked at an NGO that did agricultural policy in Sub-Saharan Africa (80% of African farmers are women, so it really played into both my interest in economic development, my interest in Africa in general, and my interest in women's rights).

I also worked a term appointment as an economist with the State Department in the Bureau of African Affairs. I know that you used to be in the Air Force so perhaps you can appreciate my liaison work with the Air Force Office of Scientific Research in DC while there.

Outside of that. I liaisoned with the Economist Intelligence Unit's construction of the Women's Economic Opportunity Index (which launched a little over a year ago), have done work as a middle man for US businesses and African political leaders (for investments in infrastructure mostly), and currently work doing development consulting work for an NGO that specializes in education in Uganda.

Aside from business trips or travel I tend to stay stateside because I wanted to raise a family and it is easier to do that if you aren't say, an FSO, so I operate primarily in the US.

Overall, I specialize in conflict, economic development, and women's rights. In order to address all of those things, I need to be able to understand theology and culture across groups and geographic regions; especially Islam and Christianity given my focus on Sub-Saharan Africa.

 

[Caroljo]

Those tenets are cruel, unfair, and inhumane. If mainstream Islam truly adheres to them, then that is to their shame.

Yea, but it keeps the wife in line and family together plus it's a way for the man to get his frustrations out. So it's a win-win all the way around.

Come on now, admit it, don't you just want to give your wife a crack now and again to keep her in line!

I hope nobody here thinks your serious! Lol!

 

[Caroljo]

Those tenets are cruel, unfair, and inhumane. If mainstream Islam truly adheres to them, then that is to their shame.

Mainstream Islam does not adhere to those ideas. You are given an example of one extremist and are asked to assume that he speaks for most Muslims. It's like believing the head of the Westboro Baptist Church speaks for all Christians. Don't be gullible.

You may be right that mainstream Islam does not adhere to them....but then why don't they speak out against it? This is a big area that Muslims and Christians are different. A true Christian will always speak out against anyone who claims they are Christians but don't spread the love of God. You see Christians here speaking out against the Westboro Church every time they are brought up. They speak out against the money hungry teliv-angelists on tv. How often do you hear even ONE muslim in America speak out against Islam and Sharia Law? I don't remember one.....I don't doubt there are mainstream muslims that don't believe those ideas, but they too scared to speak up.

 

[Osomir]

You may be right that mainstream Islam does not adhere to them....but then why don't they speak out against it? This is a big area that Muslims and Christians are different. A true Christian will always speak out against anyone who claims they are Christians but don't spread the love of God. You see Christians here speaking out against the Westboro Church every time they are brought up. They speak out against the money hungry teliv-angelists on tv.

How often have you marched in the street against the Mayi Mayi rebels?

 

[Osomir]

Don't get me wrong Caroljo I'm not trying to be cute with you, I'm merely emphasizing a post that I previously made on the topic in this thread which stated:

I agree that Islam has a general PR problem. But for what it is worth there can be, and are some demonstrations against "radical Islam".

But mostly, I think we have unrealistic expectations in that department as well.

When was the last time a group of Christians in the US protested against the LRA? Remember the Mumbai terrorist attack in 2008? The same exact day about twice as many people were killed in Nigeria's Jos area (mostly at the hands of a Christian mob), and not only did we not even have good coverage of it, but I don't recall any protests in the US against such violence from US Christians.

Same with Yau Yau's current revolt in South Sudan, Or the Mayi Mayi rebel atrocities in Eastern DR Congo, the the actions of the Nagaland Rebels in northeastern India.

And that's fine. Just because we are all Christians doesn't mean that we identify with one another, or even know about one another. Hell according to public polls, most rural people in Afghanistan don't even know what happened on 9/11. Why would they protest? That isn't their Islam.

We generally know enough about Christianity (since most of us were raised in majority Christian societies and studying western history) to be able to put groups like the LRA, God's Army, or war criminals like Yau Yau and Charles Taylor into proper historical, cultural and religious context. We generally don't seem to offer Islam the same courtesy though and I don't necessarily think that is due to a malicious nature on our part, but simply due to not knowing any better owing to an information gap.

 

[Caroljo]

Mainstream Islam does not adhere to those ideas. You are given an example of one extremist and are asked to assume that he speaks for most Muslims. It's like believing the head of the Westboro Baptist Church speaks for all Christians. Don't be gullible.

It's nice to meet you, Esmeralda.

I'm a skeptical and pragmatic individual. Mainstream Islam may not adhere to those ideas... they may say that they don't, either. There have been some times in my experience where I wonder why mainstream Muslims don't rigorously denounce radical Muslims, and point them out. It is something I've wondered for years, with good reason. Lately, my favorite liberal Bob Beckel has made more than his fair share of points regarding those mainstream Muslims who seem rather tepid about radical Islam. If those Muslims wanted my trust, they'd do all that they could to furiously denounce those murderers and throw them out of their midst. When I consider people, I consider their actions... not their words.

Most flavors of Christianity strongly denounce the WBC. I would like to see the same of Muslims and radical Islam.

You are expecting them to explain to YOU and denounce to YOU, the bad people in their culture, the people who are criminals, violent, evil. Do you explain to THEM and denounce to THEM all the bad people in your culture doing bad evil things to others? Do you go to the press and go to the Muslim people and explain and denounce all the serial killers, all the people who are mass murderers in cinemas and schools, all the men in the USA who are beating their wives, all the child rapists, all the rapists and murderers in the US? Do you turn to the Muslims and say how bad all this is and apologize to them for the acts of these bad people in your culture? Of course you don't. But you expect Muslims to give you an explanation, a denouncement, an apology for the evil people in their culture who do bad things. Why?

Why would we have to explain that? Islam is their religion. If someone is making a mocking of your beliefs, you say something! They aren't saying crap...not one word against the murders, suicide bombings, parents murdering their children because they embarassed them...why??

Mass murderer's, serial killers, are happening more and more. But anyone with a brain would know that you can't trust what they say when they say they're Christians, or they're Dems or Rebublicans or gay or whatever. Everyone knows for sure that Muslims are Muslims...just like Christians are Christians. There are muslims that won't open their mouths to speak against what murderous muslims are doing. There are Christians that won't speak out against other Christians that have come to accept gays, lesbians and abortions.

 

[Caroljo]

You may be right that mainstream Islam does not adhere to them....but then why don't they speak out against it? This is a big area that Muslims and Christians are different. A true Christian will always speak out against anyone who claims they are Christians but don't spread the love of God. You see Christians here speaking out against the Westboro Church every time they are brought up. They speak out against the money hungry teliv-angelists on tv.

How often have you marched in the street against the Mayi Mayi rebels?

Well....never....since I've never heard of them.

 

[Caroljo]

Summary:
(1) Beating are not only allowed by the Koran they are promoted by the Koran.
(2) Without wife beatings the family dynamic breaks down and leads to divorce.
(3) Using harsh words towards a disobedient wife is a must, aka spousal mental abuse is an Islamic duty! Don't leave out breaking her down mentally also!
(4) Refusal of sex is a just reason to beat your wive.
(5) Beat your wive with one of the assortment of rods. They are the "Rods of Obedience." Do you see the size of some of those rods. They are huge. Broken bones all in the name of Islam, so it AOK.
(6) Beating one's wife is a Husband's RIGHT. He can't be prosecuted under the law, unless he kills her!
(7) A wife has no right to beat her husband, even in self-defense. "Islam spared the wife of a need to use violence." However, a wife can get another man to beat her husband, but only after she goes to court and the court awards it. Yep fat chance of that happening.
(8) Comical moment in the broadcast: Beating your wife with a handkerchief is considered "extreme" and even laughable. I would do no damage.
(9) Beating your wife sends a message: "I'm not pleased with your behavior."
(10) The cure to the mental disorders of sadism and masochism? You guessed it - BEATING YOUR WIFE!!! Not only does the Koran allow this it promotes it as a cure! Don't take the Koran's word for it, Islamic psychiatrist say it's the cure and regularly tell the husbands of their patients to start beating their wives!
(11) BIGGEST FABRICATION: The scholar actually claims: "No women died from Islamic wife beatings." OK nutbar!

So given your summary it doesn't seem as though you watched actually the video. Perhaps you simply copied and pasted this from another site?

Anyway:

"Beating" is a poor translation from the Arabic to the English. Any linguist, or theological scholar will tell you that this is often a problem when translating texts from one language to another. When we hear the word "beating" we think of violent domestic abuse. Unfortunately that happens all too often all over the world, but the "beating" in this video as it relates theologically to Islam is a purely symbolic gesture in which the husband is to strike his wife with a scarf (or handkerchief as he says in the video) in a way that does not leave a mark on her to symbolize how poorly the situation is. It is the last ditch effort to ward off divorce and it not for every ay use (It is not for everyday acts of disobedience, or for use in arguments). It is not something that is theologically allowed to be done out of anger either. This style of symbolism was passed down from Muhammad's farewell speech through Ibn Abbas.

To cover a few of your more off specific points:

3.) He doesn't say that speaking harshly is a must, he said that it is better for family unity to resolves things through dialogue, not domestic abuse, and he said that the type of dialogue depends on the personality of the women. His talk is quite misogynistic, but he lumps women into different categories depending on what they might respond to best.
The sticks in the video are not something that he is telling people to hit their wives with, just the opposite he is telling people that isn't acceptable.

4.) Not true. Though this is a general cultural belief that persists in many countries (including non-Islamic ones). The refusal of a woman to share the bed of her husband in Islam signifies marital problems. There are a number of steps to be taken before the symbolic hit with the scarf occurs, and generally such a thing under jurisprudential codes comes after months or even years of continued denial and problems. If a guy comes home from work and his wife doesn't want to have sex because she has a headache he isn't allowed theologically to hit her, let alone beat her.

5.) I'm not sure where this one even came from, the rods he is holding are rods that he says are completely unjust to hit your wife with. He replaces them later with the handkerchief that he waves around while talking about Ibn Abbas. And you mention broken bones, but the strike isn't even allowed to leave a bruise let alone break bones.

6.) Once again this happens all too often in developing countries, but theologically under traditional Islamic jurisprudential sets that isn't true at all. In fact even in this video he says that a woman has the right to take her husband to court for issues of mistreatment including domestic abuse. I have actual primary document records of such legal cases throughout the course of the Ottoman Empire if you'd like me to reference them.

7.) This is true. The symbolic striking is something that is generally for men to utilize though there have been cases where women utilize it as well. Islam was constructed during a time in which traditional patriarchal structures prevailed and that trickled into the theological aspects of Islam. We see the same sorts of patriarchal family structures in other religions as well. I don't particularly care for them, but then again that's one reason why I'm not religious.

8.) I think you misread the translation there.

10.) Yeah that was an odd segment, he said "beat your wife in a very specific way". He didn't elaborate on that, and the treatment of such disorders is not an area of Islamic jurisprudence that I have a lot of experience in, but I imagine it shouldn't be among the "harsh beatings" that he differentiates with earlier. Aka leave no mark, and not allowed to strike the face. I could be wrong there though, I've never studied such a case.

And Muslims are told they can lie as long as it is for Islamic greater good. So everything you just said could be a bunch of BS........

 

[Osomir]

And Muslims are told they can lie as long as it is for Islamic greater good. So everything you just said could be a bunch of BS........

So can any human.

Theologically though, Muslims can generally deceive on the battlefield in warfare, or lie by claiming not to be a Muslim if their life would otherwise be threatened, or can tell falsehoods under torture.

The notion of casual lying to advance the Islamic faith in Islam doesn't hold strong jurisprudential grounds in mainstream Islam. Even under torture or threat of death theologically (according to most popular customs) is to preferred to take death over renouncing your faith.

If you think anything i said is BS I would be happy to support it with theological references or you could actually tell me what you think is wrong and why and I can respond to your critiques with more targeted proof.

 

[Caroljo]

Please, what is the penalty for beating your wife in Kuwait or the Gaza strip?

http://www.unicef.org/gender/files/Kuwait-Gender-Eqaulity-Profile-2011.pdf

It isn't my responsibility to educate you. If you want to remain ignorant, do so. Be advised however that both Kuwait and Gaza are very small countries. There are 1.7 billion Muslims in the world. A tiny, tiny percentage of the live in Kuwait and Gaza. Also, Muslims live in many different countries and cultures. Laws are based on culture. Each country and each culture is different. As little as 15-20 years ago men who beat and killed their wives in some South American countries were not penalized, not arrested, not sent to prison. It is because of their macho culture. It's better there now, but closer to the cultures you are so set on finding fault with now. And those South American cultures are all Christian. Be informed instead of making decisions about things with little or no knowledge of that culture and other cultures and history.

Kuwait and Gaza were just examples but feel free to let me know, in what Muslim country do men recieve jail time for beating their wives? you sound like the ignorant one here champ.

It would have been simple for her to give you a quick answer to your question....but notice she decided to write 80 more words instead because it isn't her responsibility! You won't get an answer, not a true one anyway!

 

[JoeB131]

[
I'd like to see non-partisan citations for your idiotic claims, but there are none. Oh, well.

What do you consider "non-Partisan"?

Iraq: A Criminal Process
| Global Research

Highly partisan.

Iraq: A Criminal Process

Carpet bombing...​

When they start off with a lie, everything else they say can be discarded as worthless.

Asia Times Online :: Middle East News, Iraq, Iran current affairs

Highly partisan. We blew up a buried weapons cache. How barbaric!

Dumbass.

How can a publication outside the US be "Partisan"?

We carpet bombed Iraq. We've created a generation of vengeful orphans, and we are going to have to deal with that.

[

Again, I find it amusing how far you go to deny that we killed far more of them than they killed of us.

Make, sweet, sweet love to that hornet's nest.

Eat shit.

Oh, wait -- sorry. You already do.

Duly noted you lost the argument.

 

[daveman]

I'll check back in tomorrow night to see what you come up with and to give you a more point by point response to your video since you desire it.

And while you're at it, detail your experience, education and training that give you the authority to speak for Islam.

I don't speak for Islam, I merely have my own opinions.

Academically, I have a dual degree in Economics and Political Science with a minor in Public Administration and concentration in Islamic history. I also have a masters in international affairs with a dual concentration in economic development and conflict. While getting my masters I took free electives in the construction of Shariah law sets.

Within the realm of conflict I specialize in Islamic terrorism, which is where my studying of and knowledge of Islam stems from (aside from a general love of theology), and am published academically in both the subjects of Islamic terrorism, and economic development.

My graduate thesis was an econometric analysis of women's rights in economic development (so I focused primarily on Africa, the Middle East, and Central Asia).

Professionally, I did print journalism for seven years. I started off initially in the central Asia region (with Burma and Daw Aung San Suu Kyi's and the NLD's struggle for democracy there), before focusing primarily On international conflict and development (sort of my niche). My primary focus was on Africa, though I covered anything terrorism related in the Middle East and Africa regions, as well as the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

After that I did consulting work on Middle Eastern and African issues and institutions for a university that was setting up an international affairs program. I also worked at an NGO that did agricultural policy in Sub-Saharan Africa (80% of African farmers are women, so it really played into both my interest in economic development, my interest in Africa in general, and my interest in women's rights).

I also worked a term appointment as an economist with the State Department in the Bureau of African Affairs. I know that you used to be in the Air Force so perhaps you can appreciate my liaison work with the Air Force Office of Scientific Research in DC while there.

Outside of that. I liaisoned with the Economist Intelligence Unit's construction of the Women's Economic Opportunity Index (which launched a little over a year ago), have done work as a middle man for US businesses and African political leaders (for investments in infrastructure mostly), and currently work doing development consulting work for an NGO that specializes in education in Uganda.

Aside from business trips or travel I tend to stay stateside because I wanted to raise a family and it is easier to do that if you aren't say, an FSO, so I operate primarily in the US.

Overall, I specialize in conflict, economic development, and women's rights. In order to address all of those things, I need to be able to understand theology and culture across groups and geographic regions; especially Islam and Christianity given my focus on Sub-Saharan Africa.

Given all your education, I wonder why you downplay Islamic domestic abuse?

Where did you get your education in terrorism?

 

[daveman]

What do you consider "non-Partisan"?

Iraq: A Criminal Process
| Global Research

Highly partisan.

Iraq: A Criminal Process

Carpet bombing...​

When they start off with a lie, everything else they say can be discarded as worthless.

Highly partisan. We blew up a buried weapons cache. How barbaric!

Dumbass.

How can a publication outside the US be "Partisan"?

We carpet bombed Iraq. We've created a generation of vengeful orphans, and we are going to have to deal with that.

[

Again, I find it amusing how far you go to deny that we killed far more of them than they killed of us.

Make, sweet, sweet love to that hornet's nest.

Eat shit.

Oh, wait -- sorry. You already do.

Duly noted you lost the argument.

You stamping your feet and pouting doesn't make any of you lies true, boy.

 

[Zona]

Kuwaiti Scholar Jassem Al-Mutawa: Wife Beating in Islam Treats Women Suffering from Masochism - YouTube

These are from the mouth of the lion. He said them and he owns them. Nothing out of context.

Summary:
(1) Beating are not only allowed by the Koran they are promoted by the Koran.
(2) Without wife beatings the family dynamic breaks down and leads to divorce.
(3) Using harsh words towards a disobedient wife is a must, aka spousal mental abuse is an Islamic duty! Don't leave out breaking her down mentally also!
(4) Refusal of sex is a just reason to beat your wive.
(5) Beat your wive with one of the assortment of rods. They are the "Rods of Obedience." Do you see the size of some of those rods. They are huge. Broken bones all in the name of Islam, so it AOK.
(6) Beating one's wife is a Husband's RIGHT. He can't be prosecuted under the law, unless he kills her!
(7) A wife has no right to beat her husband, even in self-defense. "Islam spared the wife of a need to use violence." However, a wife can get another man to beat her husband, but only after she goes to court and the court awards it. Yep fat chance of that happening.
(8) Comical moment in the broadcast: Beating your wife with a handkerchief is considered "extreme" and even laughable. I would do no damage.
(9) Beating your wife sends a message: "I'm not pleased with your behavior."
(10) The cure to the mental disorders of sadism and masochism? You guessed it - BEATING YOUR WIFE!!! Not only does the Koran allow this it promotes it as a cure! Don't take the Koran's word for it, Islamic psychiatrist say it's the cure and regularly tell the husbands of their patients to start beating their wives!
(11) BIGGEST FABRICATION: The scholar actually claims: "No women died from Islamic wife beatings." OK nutbar!

Damn.

but i wonder what is the percentage of divorces there.

 

[daveman]

Question for Osomir and Esmerelda:

What are your thoughts on Islamic female genital mutilation?

 

[Caroljo]

Don't get me wrong Caroljo I'm not trying to be cute with you, I'm merely emphasizing a post that I previously made on the topic in this thread which stated:

I agree that Islam has a general PR problem. But for what it is worth there can be, and are some demonstrations against "radical Islam".

But mostly, I think we have unrealistic expectations in that department as well.

When was the last time a group of Christians in the US protested against the LRA? Remember the Mumbai terrorist attack in 2008? The same exact day about twice as many people were killed in Nigeria's Jos area (mostly at the hands of a Christian mob), and not only did we not even have good coverage of it, but I don't recall any protests in the US against such violence from US Christians.

Same with Yau Yau's current revolt in South Sudan, Or the Mayi Mayi rebel atrocities in Eastern DR Congo, the the actions of the Nagaland Rebels in northeastern India.

And that's fine. Just because we are all Christians doesn't mean that we identify with one another, or even know about one another. Hell according to public polls, most rural people in Afghanistan don't even know what happened on 9/11. Why would they protest? That isn't their Islam.

We generally know enough about Christianity (since most of us were raised in majority Christian societies and studying western history) to be able to put groups like the LRA, God's Army, or war criminals like Yau Yau and Charles Taylor into proper historical, cultural and religious context. We generally don't seem to offer Islam the same courtesy though and I don't necessarily think that is due to a malicious nature on our part, but simply due to not knowing any better owing to an information gap.

I think I understand what you're saying....but I believe muslims that live in the US today most likely have the means to know what is going on with their religion in other parts of the world. They are not in nowhere land that they would not have heard of it. So I don't believe there's any excuse why the US muslims are not condemning what others are doing in the name of their religion.

 

[JoeB131]

Question for Osomir and Esmerelda:

What are your thoughts on Islamic female genital mutilation?

Can't speak for them, but probably the same as CHRISTIAN genital mutilation.

It isn't endorsed by any religion, but certain cultures support it, and some of them are Christian.

 

[daveman]

Question for Osomir and Esmerelda:

What are your thoughts on Islamic female genital mutilation?

Can't speak for them, but probably the same as CHRISTIAN genital mutilation.

It isn't endorsed by any religion, but certain cultures support it, and some of them are Christian.

Christians don't do FGM.

However, the Muslim Brotherhood, whom President Obama supports, do:

Religious views on female genital mutilation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In May of 2012 it was reported by several news sources that the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt was working to decriminalize female circumcision (FGM). According to reporter Mariz Tadros, "in Egypt the Muslim Brotherhood have offered to circumcise women for a nominal fee as part of their community services, a move that threatens to reverse decades of local struggle against the harmful practice. ... The Brotherhood’s strategy to undermine the national campaign to end FGM is three-pronged. Firstly, they contest the notion that the practice is not religiously prescribed. Many of the Brothers (and Salafis) argue that while it is not mandatory, it is nevertheless mukarama (preferable, pleasing in the eyes of God). They also quote hadith (saying attributed to the Prophet) which stipulates that FGM should involve “cutting, but only lightly”.​

Barbaric.

Joe, if you're referring to male circumcision, circumcised males can still orgasm.

Circumcised females cannot.

 

[JoeB131]

Question for Osomir and Esmerelda:

What are your thoughts on Islamic female genital mutilation?

Can't speak for them, but probably the same as CHRISTIAN genital mutilation.

It isn't endorsed by any religion, but certain cultures support it, and some of them are Christian.

Christians don't do FGM.

However, the Muslim Brotherhood, whom President Obama supports, do:


Barbaric.

Joe, if you're referring to male circumcision, circumcised males can still orgasm.

Circumcised females cannot.

Correcting your ignorance is a full time job.

Religious views on female genital mutilation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The traditional cultural practice of FGM predates both Islam and Christianity. A Greek papyrus from 163 B.C. mentions girls in Ancient Egypt undergoing circumcision [1] but it is not widely accepted to have originated in Egypt and the Nile valley at the time of the Pharaohs.[2] By Graeco-Roman times, however, it was an accepted practice


The U.S. Department of Health and Human Services states that the custom of FGM "cuts across religions and is practiced by Muslims, Christians, Jews and followers of indigenous religions

 

[Esmeralda]

Question for Osomir and Esmerelda:

What are your thoughts on Islamic female genital mutilation?

Here are 3 novels by modern female Arabic writers. Read them and get some perspective on the life of modern Arabic women.

From Sleep Unbound by Andree Chedid (the author is female; the protagonist of the novel is a Christian Arabic woman in Egypt)

Chaos of the Senses by A. Mosteghanemi- Algeria


Reading Lolita in Tehran by Azar Nafisi

One thing you will see is that how women are treated varies by culture. It is not the same for all Muslim women in all countries. Also, Chistian women in certain cultures don't fare any better; it's culture, not religion. Another thing to not is that there are women out there, Arabic women, Muslim women writing modern novels, commenting on the place and role of women in modern Arabic society. In the last century, a lot of things changed for women in the West, in large part because of women writers, both fiction and not fiction. The same will happen in Arabic culture too. It is happening.

Female circumcision: I think it is not as prevalent as some think. I am definitely very much against it, of course: it is horrific. I have to go now. Will get back to this later.