Respected Kuwaiti Scholar on NECESSITY of Beating Your Wife

[Osomir]

I'll check back in tomorrow night to see what you come up with and to give you a more point by point response to your video since you desire it.

 

[daveman]

Well I did reply to them, but I would gladly give you a point by point reply to the entire video and links (a courtesy you haven't shown to a single one of my posts) if you answer my above question concerning your experience in these subjects.

Done did, Skippy. Of course, you will discount it all, because I have the temerity to disagree with you.

The Islamic scholar in the video advocated wife beating. You summarily dismissed him as a kook. His name is Abdur Raheem Green, and he is mainstream Muslim. If he was a kook he wouldn't have this career:

Abdur Raheem Green (born in 1962 as Anthony Vatswaf Galvin Green) is a British Imam and is a founder of the iERA. He is known in some Muslim communities for his work in Dawah, both in televised formal settings and informal contexts such as Hyde Park's Speakers Corner. He is a regular presenter on Peace TV.[1][2] He is currently engaged in education and media work on Peace TV and Islam Channel and is the chairman of the Islamic Education & Research Academy. Green has given talks on international platforms, such as the Peace Conference held in Mumbai.[3]​

Game, set, match. And he didn't mention a word about your silly damn handkerchief.

Lol slow your roll their chief; no need to explode prematurely. I'll get to you "game winning" post. You dodged giving a direct answer though:

Do you have any academic or professional experience related to any of the above subjects? Have you ever lived in an Islamic country (for one year or more)?

Yes, I have. I love Oman. Beautiful country. The hills above Salalah are beautiful during the springtime, and the drive from Muscat to the ferry taking you to Masirah Island is desolate but gorgeous. The architecture, both old and new, is fascinating. And the tour I took of the Grand Mosque was breathtaking.

I got along great with the Omanis. We'd be in the Al Fair grocery store closest to our house, and little old Omani grandmothers would squeal in delight at the sight of our blond-haired 1-year-old daughter. They always had to pick her up and hold her. It was so sweet.

We lived at 23°36'42.64"N, 58°27'39.67"E. Check it out on Google Maps.

Did you know Alexander the Great and his army camped at Masirah? Fascinating history.

Just in case you're wondering why this post took a while, I was locating the house we lived in on Google Earth. It's been 10 years since we lived there; took a while to find the place.

Any more questions?

Oh, and don't insult my intelligence by claiming I Googled all that stuff. That would just be your arrogance talking, and your arrogance is pretty ignorant.

On edit: Say, did you know the Sultan of Oman is gay? Just sayin'.

 

[daveman]

Do you have any academic or professional experience related to any of the above subjects? Have you ever lived in an Islamic country?

What vested interested do you think i have in whitewashing Islam? Why can't I just be disagreeing with you based on my own academic and professional experience and studies?

What part of "I've spent time in Islamic nations" is unclear to you?

Oman, UAE, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Egypt.

I disagree with you because you seem to be lacking in your studies.

Telling me that you've gone on vacation to a couple of countries isn't the same thing as answering my question. Given your relative shyness on the matter though, I can start to guess what your actual answer to those questions are.

Vacation? I didn't have time for vacation. I was working.

You seem to be making a lot of assumptions. Why is that, I wonder?

Oh, yes...you're an arrogant prick. That'll do it, every time.

 

[Esmeralda]

Osomir, Esmerelda, Jones, I'd like you all to stop pretending this post doesn't exist.

Well once again that is highly dependent on the jurisprudential area and type of sharia code set. For example that isn't really the way the Ottoman Empire (perhaps the most powerful Islamic empire in history) operated. I've had the opportunity to study historical legal cases from Ottoman era documents, and have seen rape cases against women where most of the witnesses called in court were women, (there weren't four males). A particular case that springs to my mind is one from 1854 in which a slave woman who was raped and impregnated by her master takes him to court and wins. Her name was Shemsigul, and she made it through the entire court process and ruling by the Grand Mufti without four male witnesses and did it not only as a woman, but as a slave as well, and one who had a child out of wedlock.

If we are going by your generalizations and stereotypes, you would probably assume that she would be stoned to death, killed, or otherwise punished for being raped, but she wasn't, and that is just one example out of thousands that defy popular western stereotypes and generalizations, and one that stems from a much earlier time period at that.

It really does depend on the specific region and community that you are looking at. Generalizations involving over a billion people spread out in such geographically and culturally diverse ways generally don't tend to hold up too well.



This statement strikes me as being somewhat ignorant of our own history as western peoples. We have done A LOT of violence while utilizing religious discourse as a means of justification. We're talking tens to hundreds of millions of deaths relating directly to Christian populations. I think we also tend to forget that most of Sub-Saharan Africa is pretty deeply Christian (in fact one of the fastest growing Christian regions in the world). We simply know enough about Christianity since we have grown up with it in our culture to be able to put such historical and modern violence into proper context and realize the diversity that exists within Christianity and the depth that other non-religious factors often play when it comes to violence within Christian populated areas. Unfortunately it seems that some of us don't really know enough about Islam to be able to show it the same courtesy; which is fine, but it becomes not fine when instead of reserving judgement due to our ignorance, we instead generalize and jump to conclusions despite the fact that say you might not really know much about Islamic law sets or traditional cultural sets within Islamic populations.

When it comes down to it, you have to be honest with yourself about the depth of your knowledge on the subject in question, and how that level of knowledge (whatever it may be) might affect your opinions and understanding of the topic at hand.

I'm talking about today, not 1854.

Abuse of U.S. Muslim Women Is Greater Than Reported, Advocacy Groups Say | Fox News

For Some Muslim Wives, Abuse Knows No Borders

Domestic Violence Series: A Hidden Evil and Muslim Communities | MuslimMatters.orgMuslimMatters.org

CFWIntro.pdf - By Nitro PDF Software



The steps for keeping evil from your family (because all evil comes from the wife, apparently):

Step 1: Admonishment.

Step 2. Withhold affection.

Step 3. Physical force -- "a light beating". May not leave any type of mark, may not break the skin, may not break a bone.

Sooo...are you going to keep whitewashing Islam's promotion of domestic abuse?

I don't pretend what this guy says wasn't said. What you need to stop pretending is that he speaks for mainstream Islam. He doesn't. It's like pretending that some extremist guy in Utah with 20 wives represents mainstream Mormons. Educated, modern day Muslims do not as a rule beat their wives or think it is okay to do so. The laws in the vast majority of Muslim countries do not allow men to beat their wives Those men who may be doing so are uneducated, usually poor, conservative/fundamentalist extremists, not mainstream Muslims. Though women's rights are behind those of first world countries in the West, things are changing. Try to put things in perspective: in the Gulf States, before WWII those places were primitive societies, mostly villages or Bedouins. They have progressed leaps and bounds in 60 or so years; they are still backward in some areas, including women's rights, but most women are not treated as badly as Victorian women were in the West only 100 years ago. And these things have to do with culture, not religion. No modern, mainstream, educated Muslim man is going to read the BS script you posted by this guy and say, oh, yea, I'll go home now and beat my wife to keep the family together. Most Muslim women can divorce their husbands, and many do for far less than domestic abuse.

As well, let's not pretend there is no domestic abuse in our countries. Far, far from it. We have no right to look at others and judge them until our own house is in order.

 

[rdean]

US House GOP Blocks Violence Against Women Act

Marco Rubio Leads Charge Of 22 GOP Male Senators To Block Violence Against Women Act

You'd think they were "Muslims".

Do Republicans understand that wives are also women? One wonders.

 

[Agent.Tom]

US House GOP Blocks Violence Against Women Act

Marco Rubio Leads Charge Of 22 GOP Male Senators To Block Violence Against Women Act

You'd think they were "Muslims".

Do Republicans understand that wives are also women? One wonders.

Are you really ignorant enough to believe that Republicans just "hate women" and therefore vote down any law created to protect them?

I'm willing to bet that the "violence against women act" was either (a) anything BUT an act created to stop real violence against women, or (b) infested and encrusted with rotten Liberal PORK that had nothing to do with the act itself. I can also pretty much also guarantee that the act itself never had any intention of helping women or even passing through the House... rather, it was contrived as a political football to be used in Liberal talking points that the low-information voters would fall for.

Did you hear? Republicans hate clean water, clean air, and old people too!

 

[Avatar4321]

Osomir, Esmerelda, Jones, I'd like you all to stop pretending this post doesn't exist.

I'm talking about today, not 1854.

Abuse of U.S. Muslim Women Is Greater Than Reported, Advocacy Groups Say | Fox News

For Some Muslim Wives, Abuse Knows No Borders

Domestic Violence Series: A Hidden Evil and Muslim Communities | MuslimMatters.orgMuslimMatters.org

CFWIntro.pdf - By Nitro PDF Software

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4tMfUMHxRs

The steps for keeping evil from your family (because all evil comes from the wife, apparently):

Step 1: Admonishment.

Step 2. Withhold affection.

Step 3. Physical force -- "a light beating". May not leave any type of mark, may not break the skin, may not break a bone.

Sooo...are you going to keep whitewashing Islam's promotion of domestic abuse?

I don't pretend what this guy says wasn't said. What you need to stop pretending is that he speaks for mainstream Islam. He doesn't. It's like pretending that some extremist guy in Utah with 20 wives represents mainstream Mormons. Educated, modern day Muslims do not as a rule beat their wives or think it is okay to do so. The laws in the vast majority of Muslim countries do not allow men to beat their wives Those men who may be doing so are uneducated, usually poor, conservative/fundamentalist extremists, not mainstream Muslims. Though women's rights are behind those of first world countries in the West, things are changing. Try to put things in perspective: in the Gulf States, before WWII those places were primitive societies, mostly villages or Bedouins. They have progressed leaps and bounds in 60 or so years; they are still backward in some areas, including women's rights, but most women are not treated as badly as Victorian women were in the West only 100 years ago. And these things have to do with culture, not religion. No modern, mainstream, educated Muslim man is going to read the BS script you posted by this guy and say, oh, yea, I'll go home now and beat my wife to keep the family together. Most Muslim women can divorce their husbands, and many do for far less than domestic abuse.

As well, let's not pretend there is no domestic abuse in our countries. Far, far from it. We have no right to look at others and judge them until our own house is in order.

Are modern, educated mulsims mainstream though?

 

[Avatar4321]

US House GOP Blocks Violence Against Women Act

Marco Rubio Leads Charge Of 22 GOP Male Senators To Block Violence Against Women Act

You'd think they were "Muslims".

Do Republicans understand that wives are also women? One wonders.

Silly dean, he actually things that giving a law a name means that law actually does what the name of it says.

 

[Agent.Tom]

Are modern, educated mulsims mainstream though?

I've had a long-standing belief that the Muslims who condone violence and/or call for violence are the ORTHODOX Muslims. I think the world is just fortunate that Orthodox Islam is rejected by mainstream Muslims in favor of a more peaceful approach. To me, that would make mainstream Muslims reformers who reject certain teachings within the Quran.

 

[Esmeralda]

Osomir, Esmerelda, Jones, I'd like you all to stop pretending this post doesn't exist.

I don't pretend what this guy says wasn't said. What you need to stop pretending is that he speaks for mainstream Islam. He doesn't. It's like pretending that some extremist guy in Utah with 20 wives represents mainstream Mormons. Educated, modern day Muslims do not as a rule beat their wives or think it is okay to do so. The laws in the vast majority of Muslim countries do not allow men to beat their wives Those men who may be doing so are uneducated, usually poor, conservative/fundamentalist extremists, not mainstream Muslims. Though women's rights are behind those of first world countries in the West, things are changing. Try to put things in perspective: in the Gulf States, before WWII those places were primitive societies, mostly villages or Bedouins. They have progressed leaps and bounds in 60 or so years; they are still backward in some areas, including women's rights, but most women are not treated as badly as Victorian women were in the West only 100 years ago. And these things have to do with culture, not religion. No modern, mainstream, educated Muslim man is going to read the BS script you posted by this guy and say, oh, yea, I'll go home now and beat my wife to keep the family together. Most Muslim women can divorce their husbands, and many do for far less than domestic abuse.

As well, let's not pretend there is no domestic abuse in our countries. Far, far from it. We have no right to look at others and judge them until our own house is in order.

Are modern, educated mulsims mainstream though?

Yes, the vast majority are.

 

[Avatar4321]

I don't pretend what this guy says wasn't said. What you need to stop pretending is that he speaks for mainstream Islam. He doesn't. It's like pretending that some extremist guy in Utah with 20 wives represents mainstream Mormons. Educated, modern day Muslims do not as a rule beat their wives or think it is okay to do so. The laws in the vast majority of Muslim countries do not allow men to beat their wives Those men who may be doing so are uneducated, usually poor, conservative/fundamentalist extremists, not mainstream Muslims. Though women's rights are behind those of first world countries in the West, things are changing. Try to put things in perspective: in the Gulf States, before WWII those places were primitive societies, mostly villages or Bedouins. They have progressed leaps and bounds in 60 or so years; they are still backward in some areas, including women's rights, but most women are not treated as badly as Victorian women were in the West only 100 years ago. And these things have to do with culture, not religion. No modern, mainstream, educated Muslim man is going to read the BS script you posted by this guy and say, oh, yea, I'll go home now and beat my wife to keep the family together. Most Muslim women can divorce their husbands, and many do for far less than domestic abuse.

As well, let's not pretend there is no domestic abuse in our countries. Far, far from it. We have no right to look at others and judge them until our own house is in order.

Are modern, educated mulsims mainstream though?

Yes, the vast majority are.

Based on what evidence? I'd love to believe this but I want i like seeing facts.

 

[Esmeralda]

Are modern, educated mulsims mainstream though?

Yes, the vast majority are.

Based on what evidence? I'd love to believe this but I want i like seeing facts.

I base most of it on the fact I have lived among these people for 6 years of my life. I worked with them, many were and still are friends, and I have socialized with many, many Muslim people, been in homes, been to weddings, traveled with them.

Most of the people I 've known are middled class. Office workers, school teachers, etc. I also know and have known, personally, many upper class professional people, doctors, successful business men, etc.

There are also many lower class, working class people who work for the companies I worked for. As well, there are people like maids, building superintendents, and so on that I have either dealt with personaly or know people who have. Many of these people speak English, or you are in a group where at least one or more speak English and translate.

There are poor, uneducated people who are 'backward' and who may follow more fundamentalist, extremist views, but not most. For example, one Muslim woman I was friendly with, who is upper middle class, we were talking about how most of the people who immigrate to foreign countries are the poor people, the poorly educated people. She and I had many long, detaile discussions on the subject of the poor image of Muslims in Western countries. I have also had two extemely close relationships with young Muslim women, one married and one still single-- this was sort of like an aunt or older sister relationship. We talked about everything under the sun. This is when I was living in their countries. People are comfortable with me because I am very accepting, respectful and don't judge. And I listen. And I DON'T tell them my culture is better than theirs or encourage or advise them to dump their own cultural viewpoints and mores to adopt mine.

Muslims who move to the West, migrate for economic reasons. they are the ones who are more conservative and fundamentalist and just less sophisticated culturally. They are the ones in most countries they immigrate to from whom people get the idea of what Muslims are like. But, unless you spend real time (not tourist time) in a country, you don't realize what most people are like there. The people who don't immigrate are the people who are better educated and more modern. They are also the vast majority of Muslims from that country. So, the people you see in the US, for example, who have migrated to the US from a Muslim country, they are the poor people, the less educated, and a very small percentage of all of the people from their country. They do not represent all of the people in their home country. They represent the lower level as far as education and cultural development.

When living in Muslim countries, I interact with Muslim people, especially women, as much as I do with American women when I am living in America. I have found that the Muslim women I knew and spent time with were virtually no different than the American women I know and have spent time with. They may be more traditional as far as family values, but they are educated, they work, they drive, they don't let their husbands push them around, they are strong and proud women. Some 'cover' to various extents, some dress exactly like modern Western women. It all depends on how traditional the indivdual woman is and/or how traditional her family is. And I've known quite a few who are divorced. Divorce is common. That came as a surprise to me, as it may to most in the West.

Muslims live in many different cultures, as diverse as Christian cultures. To think all Muslims are alike is a false idea. It's like thinking a woman who lives in Guatemala is exactly like a woman who lives in Nova Scotia. They may both be Christian, but their cultures are very different and their lifestyle is very different, as is their interpretation of Chrisitanity.

I have known a lot of young women in some very traditional Middle Eastern countries; a lot of them, actually, because of my work which is international in scope. Because of the type of work I do, I have had long, involved talks with them. They will not be forced into a marriage they don't want. They will not be forced to marry an older men. Those I knew who were engaged, the fiance was a young man very near their own age. Others expressed their expectation of when they marry, marrying a young, handsome man their own age, just as most Western young women expect to do. They would not put up with any kind of physical abuse. They planned to attend college and have professions. This is typical of most middle class Muslim young women. And for the working classes it is not much different. The young women I knew who got married while I knew them married men within a couple years of age as themselves.

I do know that women's rights are often not what they are in many parts of the West. But we need to realize, women's rights in our countries are a relatively new thing. It was only a few short decades ago that women had few if any rights in the US. Women were hesitant to accuse someone of rape because the woman would be put on trial if she did. If a woman got pregnant before marriage, it was she who bore the entire burden of shame, not the man. Women who were not virgins at marriage were considered sluts, and this was as recent as the 1950's. Women were not allowed to vote until the 1920's. Many other things existed, such as in Victorian times when women may not have been allowed to own property, were themselves considered 'chattle,' i.e., property, and could not get divorced. In Victorian times, if a man wanted to get rid of his wife, he could sign a paper and have her committed to an insane asylum, just on his signature and that of a male doctor. In the US, the first woman allowed to attend medical school was about 100 years ago. Muslim cultures need to catch up, but our condeming them as barbaric just shows our own lack of hindsight. Women have been treated shabbily by our own cultures since the beginning of civilization. The main problem we see in any country today where women's rights are not fair and equal is in countries that are not modernized. Saudi Arabia is a rare execption throughout the Muslim world. In most places, women have far more rights. They drive, they vote, they have professions, they get divorces, etc. They are not forced to 'cover,' that is a personal choice based on how traditional your own values are.

And we are judging Middle Eastern countries that only 60 years ago were little more than small fishing or pearling villages and Bedouins roaming the desert expecting them to have all the modern ideas and understandings we do. They may have money and cars and huge shopping malls, but for any culture, the progress of cultural ideas into modernity is more slowly developed than the ability to adapt to modern technology.

It might be helpful to understand that when living and working in a foreign country, I spend most of my time, professional and social, with the people of that country rather than living a parallel life and only or mostly associating with people from the US or other Western countries.

 

[JoeB131]

Can you actually refute the message, or do you just say, "Oh, Ramsey Clark".

Did we bomb Baghdad or not? Facts are the facts, guy.

We bombed Baghdad. We did not CARPET bomb Baghdad.

Dumbass.

Only an America-hating, Saddam-loving terrorist-felcher would say we did.

You know, like you and Clark.

Guy, I was in the military during the Gulf War. We bombed the fuck out of Iraq. We killed half a million Iraqis, most of them civilians.

So your attempt to say, "you are only a terrorist if you kill civilians, otherwise you are a freedom fighter" is just silly.

 

[daveman]

I don't pretend what this guy says wasn't said. What you need to stop pretending is that he speaks for mainstream Islam. He doesn't. It's like pretending that some extremist guy in Utah with 20 wives represents mainstream Mormons. Educated, modern day Muslims do not as a rule beat their wives or think it is okay to do so. The laws in the vast majority of Muslim countries do not allow men to beat their wives Those men who may be doing so are uneducated, usually poor, conservative/fundamentalist extremists, not mainstream Muslims. Though women's rights are behind those of first world countries in the West, things are changing. Try to put things in perspective: in the Gulf States, before WWII those places were primitive societies, mostly villages or Bedouins. They have progressed leaps and bounds in 60 or so years; they are still backward in some areas, including women's rights, but most women are not treated as badly as Victorian women were in the West only 100 years ago. And these things have to do with culture, not religion. No modern, mainstream, educated Muslim man is going to read the BS script you posted by this guy and say, oh, yea, I'll go home now and beat my wife to keep the family together. Most Muslim women can divorce their husbands, and many do for far less than domestic abuse.

He is mainstream, actually.

Abdur Raheem Green (born in 1962 as Anthony Vatswaf Galvin Green) is a British Imam and is a founder of the iERA. He is known in some Muslim communities for his work in Dawah, both in televised formal settings and informal contexts such as Hyde Park's Speakers Corner. He is a regular presenter on Peace TV.[1][2] He is currently engaged in education and media work on Peace TV and Islam Channel and is the chairman of the Islamic Education & Research Academy. Green has given talks on international platforms, such as the Peace Conference held in Mumbai.[3]​

As well, let's not pretend there is no domestic abuse in our countries. Far, far from it. We have no right to look at others and judge them until our own house is in order.

Horseshit. Since I don't engage is wife-beating, I can condemn it wherever I see it. It happens in the West, and that's bad. It happens in the Muslim world, and that's bad.

Why can't you bring yourself to criticize Islam? Are you afraid you'll lose lefty street cred? Afraid you'll get fatwah'ed?

 

[daveman]

US House GOP Blocks Violence Against Women Act

Marco Rubio Leads Charge Of 22 GOP Male Senators To Block Violence Against Women Act

You'd think they were "Muslims".

Do Republicans understand that wives are also women? One wonders.

Whatever you do, derp, you just keep your blinders on and don't condemn Islam for treating women like property.

 

[daveman]

US House GOP Blocks Violence Against Women Act

Marco Rubio Leads Charge Of 22 GOP Male Senators To Block Violence Against Women Act

You'd think they were "Muslims".

Do Republicans understand that wives are also women? One wonders.

Silly dean, he actually things that giving a law a name means that law actually does what the name of it says.

Like the Affordable Care Act driving insurance premiums up 100-400%.

See, progs are not equipped for critical thinking. They listen to what a politician says, and unquestioningly believe it. They ignore what he does, which often completely contradicts what he says.

 

[daveman]

Can you actually refute the message, or do you just say, "Oh, Ramsey Clark".

Did we bomb Baghdad or not? Facts are the facts, guy.

We bombed Baghdad. We did not CARPET bomb Baghdad.

Dumbass.

Only an America-hating, Saddam-loving terrorist-felcher would say we did.

You know, like you and Clark.

Guy, I was in the military during the Gulf War. We bombed the fuck out of Iraq. We killed half a million Iraqis, most of them civilians.

So your attempt to say, "you are only a terrorist if you kill civilians, otherwise you are a freedom fighter" is just silly.

I'd like to see non-partisan citations for your idiotic claims, but there are none. Oh, well.

 

[daveman]

I'll check back in tomorrow night to see what you come up with and to give you a more point by point response to your video since you desire it.

And while you're at it, detail your experience, education and training that give you the authority to speak for Islam.

 

[JoeB131]

[
I'd like to see non-partisan citations for your idiotic claims, but there are none. Oh, well.

What do you consider "non-Partisan"?

Iraq: A Criminal Process | Global Research

Asia Times Online :: Middle East News, Iraq, Iran current affairs

Again, I find it amusing how far you go to deny that we killed far more of them than they killed of us.

Make, sweet, sweet love to that hornet's nest.

 

[daveman]

[
I'd like to see non-partisan citations for your idiotic claims, but there are none. Oh, well.

What do you consider "non-Partisan"?

Iraq: A Criminal Process
| Global Research

Highly partisan.

Iraq: A Criminal Process

Carpet bombing...​

When they start off with a lie, everything else they say can be discarded as worthless.

Asia Times Online :: Middle East News, Iraq, Iran current affairs

Highly partisan. We blew up a buried weapons cache. How barbaric!

Dumbass.

Again, I find it amusing how far you go to deny that we killed far more of them than they killed of us.

Make, sweet, sweet love to that hornet's nest.

Eat shit.

Oh, wait -- sorry. You already do.