Rome fell, will we also fall?

[Where_r_my_Keys]

We will not fall because there is no place to fall to. If America goes down in some way it will only be because the rest of the world is already in ashes. People like to compare us to ancient Rome and predict a great fall but that is impossible in an interconnected global society such as ours. In our case the entire world is Rome and there are no barbarians at the gates.

Our "barbarians"are not Visigoths and such. Rather the are those who recently came from "teaming shores".

Not entirely. Our biggest problem is the Organized Crime Syndicate which has taken over the government.

You and Charles Murray are "Cockeyed Optimists"....
Me....not so much..

You may like his new book, "By The People."
He has a plan.

Charles Murray is a eugenicist.

All leftists are eugenicists.

In fact, one can't BE a Leftist and NOT be a believer of all shallow forms of intellectual drivel, such as Eugenics.

(Reader, Eugenics was the "GLOBAL WARMING" of the late 19th and early 20th century. Wherein the words: 'DENIER' and other such tripe were commonly bandied about, as they are today for the "Climate Change" hysteria. Such is the basis of Welfare and all forms of social subsidy and remains entrenched in many cultural swamps, such as the Left's chronic cries against meat, fur and the hue and cry against vaccination.)

What's wrong with class warfare?

ROFL!

Sweet mother... They're helpless.

The wealthy and powerful have made war on the lower classes ...

ROFLMNAO!

Poor Gilligan...

 

[PoliticalChic]

LOL, thats some funny shit.

Manufacturing jobs left this country for two reasons: unions and taxes.

I do agree with you that we need a tariff system to keep cheat imports from competing with quality american products.

Democrats have controlled congress for most of the last 75 years, so the policies you complain about were mostly put in place by democrats (and liberal republicans).

Don't blame our formerly high standard of living and generous wages of the working class for that. It's the thing we should be aiming for, not trying to avoid. The "free market" people somehow thought it would be good for American workers to directly compete with third world slave labor and our wages and benefits fell and have never recovered. I wonder how they thought we could have a vibrant economy when the working class no longer has significant disposable income. As for who supports "free market" reforms take a look at who supports the Trans-Pacific partnership.

Did I say I blamed the people? no

The government has created an anti- business environment wherein the only way some companies could survive was to leave this country. That is terrible policy and no other country on earth does such things.

These policies come from a liberal mindset that we should feel guilty for being rich and successful as a country and we need to punish ourselves for that. That is, of course, lunacy. But both parties brought that kind of thinking to DC.

Unions, while necessary in the beginning, gained way too much power and drove the prices for american goods out of the competitive range. We have the highest corporate tax rate in the world, and instead of talking about reducing it to help create american jobs, congress talks about making it even higher to "punish" the evil corporations.

Its self destructive and we citizens just sit around and watch the idiots in DC destroy this great country, it makes me very sad.

OK since you think unions are unnecessary, how much further do we have to slide back towards the 1920s before they again become necessary? The average worker is now working 7+ hours of unpaid overtime, job and wage security is a thing of past, things like paid vacations and pensions are a rarity and wages have declined as productivity has skyrocketed. Things are going pretty good for the stockholders but the working class is being left behind. How long will the "unions are unnecessary" argument persist when the real picture is one where workers have not been so powerless since before the great depression.

Detroit is a shithole due to liberals and unions running it for years. Corruption within the UAW has been demonstrated many times.

the non union car factories in the south are doing great, paying good wages, and providing good benefits. (Mercedes, BMW, Toyota, VW, Subaru, Kia, Honda, Hyundai). We now have laws to prevent the abuses that the unions stood up for in the 1920s. Unions today are nothing more than fund raisers for the dem party.

Workers are getting fewer hours because of obamacare.

Detroit is a shithole because the capitalists used it up and abandoned it

It was not the workers who were getting rich

Actually....no.

It's largely because Democrats run it....but mostly because of the racist Coleman Young.

I should start keeping track of your lies.....but quit when it gets to Avagadro's Number.

 

[rightwinger]

This is what will lead to the downfall of the U.S. empire. Diminishing wealth among the masses as the privileged few hoard all available resources

It is what brings down most empires

The 47 percent believe they deserve a slice of the pie and the American Dream

This is what will lead to the downfall of the U.S. empire. Diminishing wealth among the masses as the privileged few hoard all available resources

It is what brings down most empires

The 47% have their slice, and its being provided free by the other 53%. And, for the record, there are more liberals in the top 1% than there are conservatives.

progressive ideologies always put all of the wealth and all of the power in a very small group of super elites and everyone else is kept in EQUAL misery as long as they do and think as directed by the elite few.

You have no idea what you are asking for.

Remember this post next time you are throwing your weight behind the wealthy and accusing the left of class warfare.

are you claiming that obama, the libs, and the dems have not been engaging in class warfare? Really ??

What's wrong with class warfare? Should the poor, the low income, the middle class simply disarm unilaterally?

Struggling workers and the poor should just accept their lot in life

The wealthy are meant to make the decisions in this world and anyone who objects is just showing class warfare

 

[rightwinger]

Don't blame our formerly high standard of living and generous wages of the working class for that. It's the thing we should be aiming for, not trying to avoid. The "free market" people somehow thought it would be good for American workers to directly compete with third world slave labor and our wages and benefits fell and have never recovered. I wonder how they thought we could have a vibrant economy when the working class no longer has significant disposable income. As for who supports "free market" reforms take a look at who supports the Trans-Pacific partnership.

Did I say I blamed the people? no

The government has created an anti- business environment wherein the only way some companies could survive was to leave this country. That is terrible policy and no other country on earth does such things.

These policies come from a liberal mindset that we should feel guilty for being rich and successful as a country and we need to punish ourselves for that. That is, of course, lunacy. But both parties brought that kind of thinking to DC.

Unions, while necessary in the beginning, gained way too much power and drove the prices for american goods out of the competitive range. We have the highest corporate tax rate in the world, and instead of talking about reducing it to help create american jobs, congress talks about making it even higher to "punish" the evil corporations.

Its self destructive and we citizens just sit around and watch the idiots in DC destroy this great country, it makes me very sad.

OK since you think unions are unnecessary, how much further do we have to slide back towards the 1920s before they again become necessary? The average worker is now working 7+ hours of unpaid overtime, job and wage security is a thing of past, things like paid vacations and pensions are a rarity and wages have declined as productivity has skyrocketed. Things are going pretty good for the stockholders but the working class is being left behind. How long will the "unions are unnecessary" argument persist when the real picture is one where workers have not been so powerless since before the great depression.

Detroit is a shithole due to liberals and unions running it for years. Corruption within the UAW has been demonstrated many times.

the non union car factories in the south are doing great, paying good wages, and providing good benefits. (Mercedes, BMW, Toyota, VW, Subaru, Kia, Honda, Hyundai). We now have laws to prevent the abuses that the unions stood up for in the 1920s. Unions today are nothing more than fund raisers for the dem party.

Workers are getting fewer hours because of obamacare.

Detroit is a shithole because the capitalists used it up and abandoned it

It was not the workers who were getting rich

Actually....no.

It's largely because Democrats run it....but mostly because of the racist Coleman Young.

I should start keeping track of your lies.....but quit when it gets to Avagadro's Number.

Democrats did not run the auto companies, they did not design the cars, they did not misjudge the global market

It was the capitalists who did that and then abandoned the city once they had used it up

 

[Where_r_my_Keys]

Detroit is a shithole because the capitalists used it up and abandoned it

It was not the workers who were getting rich

ROFLMNAO!

DELUSION .. P E R S O N I F I E D !

Detroit fails because of the deceit, FRAUD and Ignorance common to the species of reasoning that has long sine governed it.

But how cool is it that the Left truly BELIEVED that prosperity would grow from IDIOCY.

 

[Where_r_my_Keys]

Democrats did not run the auto companies

No... but they ran the Socialized Labor that crippled them.

 

[Where_r_my_Keys]

Struggling workers and the poor should just accept their lot in life

Now Reader, what you see in the above drivel, is the product of deceit... wherein the dullard offering such, demonstrates that they are literally incapable of engaging the issue, as it rests in reality.

So it creates a circumstance of its own imagination, from what Plato referred to as " ... the Straw of feeble intellect...".

Such represents a deceit, advanced through fraudulence, as a means to influence the ignorant.

There are endless examples of working poor who have risen to great wealth... as there are endless examples of those born to great wealth, who died penniless.

What the cult of idiocy would have you believe is that those born poor must remain poor... and you can rest assured that nothing produces that reality faster and more completely, than Leftist policy.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Did I say I blamed the people? no

The government has created an anti- business environment wherein the only way some companies could survive was to leave this country. That is terrible policy and no other country on earth does such things.

These policies come from a liberal mindset that we should feel guilty for being rich and successful as a country and we need to punish ourselves for that. That is, of course, lunacy. But both parties brought that kind of thinking to DC.

Unions, while necessary in the beginning, gained way too much power and drove the prices for american goods out of the competitive range. We have the highest corporate tax rate in the world, and instead of talking about reducing it to help create american jobs, congress talks about making it even higher to "punish" the evil corporations.

Its self destructive and we citizens just sit around and watch the idiots in DC destroy this great country, it makes me very sad.

OK since you think unions are unnecessary, how much further do we have to slide back towards the 1920s before they again become necessary? The average worker is now working 7+ hours of unpaid overtime, job and wage security is a thing of past, things like paid vacations and pensions are a rarity and wages have declined as productivity has skyrocketed. Things are going pretty good for the stockholders but the working class is being left behind. How long will the "unions are unnecessary" argument persist when the real picture is one where workers have not been so powerless since before the great depression.

Detroit is a shithole due to liberals and unions running it for years. Corruption within the UAW has been demonstrated many times.

the non union car factories in the south are doing great, paying good wages, and providing good benefits. (Mercedes, BMW, Toyota, VW, Subaru, Kia, Honda, Hyundai). We now have laws to prevent the abuses that the unions stood up for in the 1920s. Unions today are nothing more than fund raisers for the dem party.

Workers are getting fewer hours because of obamacare.

Detroit is a shithole because the capitalists used it up and abandoned it

It was not the workers who were getting rich

Actually....no.

It's largely because Democrats run it....but mostly because of the racist Coleman Young.

I should start keeping track of your lies.....but quit when it gets to Avagadro's Number.

Democrats did not run the auto companies, they did not design the cars, they did not misjudge the global market

It was the capitalists who did that and then abandoned the city once they had used it up

The vile Coleman Young announced he didn't want any whites in his town.

But you knew that, didn't you.

 

[rightwinger]

Democrats did not run the auto companies

No... but they ran the Socialized Labor that crippled them.

I didn't see the workers rolling in wealth. They were just fighting to maintain the standard of living they had in the 50s

Socialized labor would not have run the companies into the ground like the capitalits did. They were only concerned with quarterly profits and ignored long term capital investments

 

[rightwinger]

OK since you think unions are unnecessary, how much further do we have to slide back towards the 1920s before they again become necessary? The average worker is now working 7+ hours of unpaid overtime, job and wage security is a thing of past, things like paid vacations and pensions are a rarity and wages have declined as productivity has skyrocketed. Things are going pretty good for the stockholders but the working class is being left behind. How long will the "unions are unnecessary" argument persist when the real picture is one where workers have not been so powerless since before the great depression.

Detroit is a shithole due to liberals and unions running it for years. Corruption within the UAW has been demonstrated many times.

the non union car factories in the south are doing great, paying good wages, and providing good benefits. (Mercedes, BMW, Toyota, VW, Subaru, Kia, Honda, Hyundai). We now have laws to prevent the abuses that the unions stood up for in the 1920s. Unions today are nothing more than fund raisers for the dem party.

Workers are getting fewer hours because of obamacare.

Detroit is a shithole because the capitalists used it up and abandoned it

It was not the workers who were getting rich

Actually....no.

It's largely because Democrats run it....but mostly because of the racist Coleman Young.

I should start keeping track of your lies.....but quit when it gets to Avagadro's Number.

Democrats did not run the auto companies, they did not design the cars, they did not misjudge the global market

It was the capitalists who did that and then abandoned the city once they had used it up

The vile Coleman Young announced he didn't want any whites in his town.

But you knew that, didn't you.

He did?
What a bad man

Is that why the car companies left? Mean ole Coleman must have hurt their feelings

 

[Meathead]

Democrats did not run the auto companies

No... but they ran the Socialized Labor that crippled them.

I didn't see the workers rolling in wealth. They were just fighting to maintain the standard of living they had in the 50s

Socialized labor would not have run the companies into the ground like the capitalits did. They were only concerned with quarterly profits and ignored long term capital investments

America can no longer compete in a world economy and expect the results of the mid to late-20th century. Those days are long gone. We are also not the same people we used to be. Germany and those homogeneous socialist states of Europe are not going to thrive much further in the face of a revived Asia.

It's a different ballgame altogether. The America of yesteryear is gone forever. The best we can do is do is adapt to current realities.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

America can no longer compete in a world economy and expect the results of the mid to late-20th century. Those days are long gone. We are also not the same people we used to be.

It's a different ballgame altogether. The America of yesteryear is gone forever. The best we can do is do is adapt to current realities.

^^^^^^^^^ this.

 

[rightwinger]

Democrats did not run the auto companies

No... but they ran the Socialized Labor that crippled them.

I didn't see the workers rolling in wealth. They were just fighting to maintain the standard of living they had in the 50s

Socialized labor would not have run the companies into the ground like the capitalits did. They were only concerned with quarterly profits and ignored long term capital investments

America can no longer compete in a world economy and expect the results of the mid to late-20th century. Those days are long gone. We are also not the same people we used to be. Germany and those homogeneous socialist states of Europe are not going to thrive much further in the face of a revived Asia.

It's a different ballgame altogether. The America of yesteryear is gone forever. The best we can do is do is adapt to current realities.

A $5 an hour wage scale?

 

[guno]

OK since you think unions are unnecessary, how much further do we have to slide back towards the 1920s before they again become necessary? The average worker is now working 7+ hours of unpaid overtime, job and wage security is a thing of past, things like paid vacations and pensions are a rarity and wages have declined as productivity has skyrocketed. Things are going pretty good for the stockholders but the working class is being left behind. How long will the "unions are unnecessary" argument persist when the real picture is one where workers have not been so powerless since before the great depression.

Detroit is a shithole due to liberals and unions running it for years. Corruption within the UAW has been demonstrated many times.

the non union car factories in the south are doing great, paying good wages, and providing good benefits. (Mercedes, BMW, Toyota, VW, Subaru, Kia, Honda, Hyundai). We now have laws to prevent the abuses that the unions stood up for in the 1920s. Unions today are nothing more than fund raisers for the dem party.

Workers are getting fewer hours because of obamacare.

Detroit is a shithole because the capitalists used it up and abandoned it

It was not the workers who were getting rich

Actually....no.

It's largely because Democrats run it....but mostly because of the racist Coleman Young.

I should start keeping track of your lies.....but quit when it gets to Avagadro's Number.

Democrats did not run the auto companies, they did not design the cars, they did not misjudge the global market

It was the capitalists who did that and then abandoned the city once they had used it up

The vile Coleman Young announced he didn't want any whites in his town.

But you knew that, didn't you.

Sez the little brown asian girl

 

[Where_r_my_Keys]

Democrats did not run the auto companies

No... but they ran the Socialized Labor that crippled them.

I didn't see the workers rolling in wealth. They were just fighting to maintain the standard of living they had in the 50s

Socialized labor would not have run the companies into the ground like the capitalits did. They were only concerned with quarterly profits and ignored long term capital investments

America can no longer compete in a world economy and expect the results of the mid to late-20th century. Those days are long gone. We are also not the same people we used to be. Germany and those homogeneous socialist states of Europe are not going to thrive much further in the face of a revived Asia.

It's a different ballgame altogether. The America of yesteryear is gone forever. The best we can do is do is adapt to current realities.

"America", thrives in any circumstances... .

You're referring to the United States, which is the nation which rose from the concept: America.

The United States, has in its cities, lost any kinship with America, having long ago embraced Foreign Ideas, Hostile to the Principles that Define: America. And those people have paid the unenviable price for their foolishness.

Should the United States ever regain a united, collective recognition and respect for, defense of and adherence to American principle.... it would nearly instantly find itself in escalating, collective prosperity.

But as long as it embraces the addled ideas of feckless reasoning, which seeks to secure a faster, easier way, it will continue to decay and rot, at the hands of idiots such as those presently assembled in subversive evil that is the US Executive Branch.

 

[Rexx Taylor]

give it another year, New York could wind up in the toilet so long as Vilhem The Great is still Mayor.

 

[Where_r_my_Keys]

give it another year, New York could wind up in the toilet so long as Vilhem The Great is still Mayor.

The MOMENT that NY can no longer pay the subsidies offsetting the inadequacies of those who have succumbed to the folly of Left-think... it will fall to its inevitable catastrophic end.

There is, quite literally, NO POTENTIAL FOR VIABILITY in Left-think. As such is the exact formula for Chaos, Calamity and Catastrophe.

 

[Londoner]

The Republican Party and its message machine are funded by special interests who draw massive subsidies form the State. They oppose meager foodstamp aid to the unemployed and unemployable while sucking trillions from the nanny State, who protects their mideast oil fields, stabilizes their global supply chains/trade routes and subsidizes the cost and research for their technology, e.g., see the satellite system or aerospace technology & the pentagon budget.

Would love to hear the OP compare the demand-side policies of the 50s-60s (when we had high taxes, robust safety nets and the most robust economic growth in the last 100 yrs) to the supply-side policies of the last 30 years, where government and consumer debt has exploded and the benefits of economic growth have been increasingly concentrated amongst corporate monoliths who fund elections and control policy through lobbying.

Rather than constantly repeating tired talking points that were developed in the 80s, please could the OP do some heavy lifting and say something interesting? The OP isn't saying anything knew, nor are his opponents like myself. The topic has gotten stale. Maybe the OP should do a comparative analysis of the wage/benefit structure in the 50s (when the economy was booming because American consumers had the wages to flock into main street stores) to the wage/benefit structure of today, where the new Walmart wage/benefit system means that consumers must assume ever higher levels of debt to keep the mass consumption model going.

Indeed, the OP should help us understand how our transition to low wages/slashed benefits lifted profits in one segment of society, but also lead to toxic levels of consumer borrowing in another. The OP might even compare household debt in 1955 to household debt starting in the 80s. We had larger safety nets in the 50s, and Eisenhower kept the top tax rate in the 90% range- yet the economy boomed and consumers were not sliding into crippling debt. We need to work through the implications of this.

I'm not saying that demand-centered policies are better than supply-side policies, although I do believe that a mixture of both gives us a the best shot at avoiding the pitfalls common when one strategy is overplayed. What I am saying is this: Can the OP - who I know is smart - show us that he understands all this stuff - and then maybe say something interesting about it? I understand the bumper stickers about welfare parasites and how we need to incentivize productivity and excellence, but I'd like to hear a more complicated treatment of the issues.

 

[Where_r_my_Keys]

The Republican Party and its message machine are funded by special interests ...

ROFLMNAO!

I just ADORE the Sweeter Irony.

I mean WHO would not be tickled by the hysterical nature of special interests coming to lament special interests?

 

[Londoner]

I mean WHO would not be tickled by the hysterical nature of special interests coming to lament special interests?

I never said the Left wasn't driven by special interests and hypocrisy. Bill Clinton passed NAFTA and licked the boots of Wall Street whilst claiming to feel the pain of workers.

I was pointing out the hilarity of a political movement which defines itself against welfare but whose message machine, candidates and think tanks are funded by large corporations who draw massive subsidies from the State.

But I was also asking for an analysis of the demand-centered policies of postwar liberalism (specifically focusing on the debt levels & tax / growth rates of the 50-60s) compared to the supply-side policies that started in the 80s (which carried much higher levels of debt along with lower economic growth and an alarming concentration of economic and political power > Koch/Soros).

Obviously, we want an economy that incentivizes excellence and punishes parasites, but I wanted someone on the Right to at least demonstrate an understanding of the difference between the two economic models (rather than constantly repeating talking points that we've heard since the 80s).

The talking points on both sides sound tired, boring and simplistic when not accompanied by a fuller, more complex explanation that displays some kind of deeper understanding. So again, since the OP is the one cutting and pasting, is there any way he can shed some light on the topic by providing a deeper, more analytical treatment of the issues involved? This is why I suggested comparing the tax/growth/debt levels of the 50s-60s to the 80s and beyond - so we could move beyond talking points. [Personally, I think the supply-siders fucked up demand as much as the demand-siders fucked up economic incentives - but we can't really get into it if people enter the debate armed only with talking points rather than theories, statistics & historical context]