Salon.com: "America is Ready for Socialism!" (Didn't we fight against Socialism in WW II?)

[Uncensored2008]

No economists says socialism requires democracy. In fact, in practice it can't work without abolishing democracy. In fact, socialism can't work period, but abolishing democracy is always one of the primary steps on the road to socialist oblivion.

Saying socialism requires democracy is like saying you can draw a triangle with four sides.

Socialism doesn't require democracy, it's true - BUT Lenin's grand experiment in St. Petersburg is probably the most pure example of democracy in history. People LITERALLY voted on whether to shoot their neighbors. Nothing was off the table, regional Soviets could and did vote to put families in the Arctic city into the wilds to freeze to death.

Ayn Rand's semi-autobiographical "We the Living" details the horror of what was done there. Socialism mixed with democracy results in the most evil that man is able to inflict on man. Petty squabbles become the catalyst to starve entire families to death as the voters decide the unfavored have no need to eat and have the ability to work until they fall dead.

I've engaged Socialist, and he is ignorant of both history and Marxian theory. But socialism mixed with pure democracy is pure evil.

 

[Uncensored2008]

[
The soviet union followed state capitalism, where the state owns the means of production,

Capitalism?

And you wonder why no one takes you seriously.

not the working class, many communists at the time criticized this when stalin came into power, since Lenin laid out the NEP and allowed some private ownership of production, which stalin crushed. Regardless, by what measure did the soviet union fail, apart from revisionists after stalin, not that I support the legacy of the USSR, but I love to examine its history.

Can you explain what Stalin did to the Kulaks? Will you stupidly claim that collectivism is capitalist?

You have no knowledge of history, you have no knowledge of economics, and the only knowledge you have of Marx is what you read on Wikipedia.

 

[westwall]

We fought socialism in world war 2? Really? We fought with the USSR against the fascist pigs. In the words of a fascist: "Fascism is a mix of corporate and state power"

We fought against collectivism, yes. Socialism is a form of collectivism. The National Socialist German Workers Party was most certainly an extreme form of socialism.

My God, the Right will do anything to distance themselves from Nazis.

Actually it's the other way round. There are only two types of government systems. Collectivist and individualist. Fascist, Socialist, Communist, are all the same house. They are merely painted slightly different colors. Individualist government in its extreme form is anarchy in other words no government.

Your claim that nazis are right wingers and socialists are left wingers but as any thinking person can tell you that is simply not true. That is a propaganda construct created by the Fabian Socialists to try and distance themselves from the wanton murder of the political systems they helped devise.

For someone who claims to be a "political junky" you sure don't know much about political systems.

 

[danielpalos]

Socialism merely requires social morals for free.

 

[Socialist]

[
The soviet union followed state capitalism, where the state owns the means of production,

Capitalism?

And you wonder why no one takes you seriously.

not the working class, many communists at the time criticized this when stalin came into power, since Lenin laid out the NEP and allowed some private ownership of production, which stalin crushed. Regardless, by what measure did the soviet union fail, apart from revisionists after stalin, not that I support the legacy of the USSR, but I love to examine its history.

Can you explain what Stalin did to the Kulaks? Will you stupidly claim that collectivism is capitalist?

You have no knowledge of history, you have no knowledge of economics, and the only knowledge you have of Marx is what you read on Wikipedia.

State Capitalism and Dictatorship
No, I will not claim forced collectivism is capitalist, no one is supporting stalin. I have no knowledge of history or marx? Wow, such an in depth analysis, great job, 10/10.

 

[Socialist]

We fought socialism in world war 2? Really? We fought with the USSR against the fascist pigs. In the words of a fascist: "Fascism is a mix of corporate and state power"

We fought against collectivism, yes. Socialism is a form of collectivism. The National Socialist German Workers Party was most certainly an extreme form of socialism.

My God, the Right will do anything to distance themselves from Nazis.

Actually it's the other way round. There are only two types of government systems. Collectivist and individualist. Fascist, Socialist, Communist, are all the same house. They are merely painted slightly different colors. Individualist government in its extreme form is anarchy in other words no government.

Your claim that nazis are right wingers and socialists are left wingers but as any thinking person can tell you that is simply not true. That is a propaganda construct created by the Fabian Socialists to try and distance themselves from the wanton murder of the political systems they helped devise.

For someone who claims to be a "political junky" you sure don't know much about political systems.

Fascism and socialism/communism are not at all related, it's pathetic to try to relate them, considering hitler invaded the soviet union and broke with the "socialist" message after acquiring power.

 

[Socialist]

No economists says socialism requires democracy. In fact, in practice it can't work without abolishing democracy. In fact, socialism can't work period, but abolishing democracy is always one of the primary steps on the road to socialist oblivion.

Saying socialism requires democracy is like saying you can draw a triangle with four sides.

Socialism doesn't require democracy, it's true - BUT Lenin's grand experiment in St. Petersburg is probably the most pure example of democracy in history. People LITERALLY voted on whether to shoot their neighbors. Nothing was off the table, regional Soviets could and did vote to put families in the Arctic city into the wilds to freeze to death.

Ayn Rand's semi-autobiographical "We the Living" details the horror of what was done there. Socialism mixed with democracy results in the most evil that man is able to inflict on man. Petty squabbles become the catalyst to starve entire families to death as the voters decide the unfavored have no need to eat and have the ability to work until they fall dead.

I've engaged Socialist, and he is ignorant of both history and Marxian theory. But socialism mixed with pure democracy is pure evil.

You keep bringing up st petersburg and yet, I cannot find anything remotely related to support your ludicrous claims. Oh lord, Ayn rand is your source? Socialism mixed with democracy results in the most evil? Based on what, one semi-autobiographical piece of writing by ayn rand and complete ignorance of the revolutionary period in the soviet union?

 

[bripat9643]

[
The soviet union followed state capitalism, where the state owns the means of production,

Capitalism?

And you wonder why no one takes you seriously.

not the working class, many communists at the time criticized this when stalin came into power, since Lenin laid out the NEP and allowed some private ownership of production, which stalin crushed. Regardless, by what measure did the soviet union fail, apart from revisionists after stalin, not that I support the legacy of the USSR, but I love to examine its history.

Can you explain what Stalin did to the Kulaks? Will you stupidly claim that collectivism is capitalist?

You have no knowledge of history, you have no knowledge of economics, and the only knowledge you have of Marx is what you read on Wikipedia.

State Capitalism and Dictatorship
No, I will not claim forced collectivism is capitalist, no one is supporting stalin. I have no knowledge of history or marx? Wow, such an in depth analysis, great job, 10/10.

You keep claiming you're not a Marxist, yet you are constantly spouting Marxist propaganda.

 

[Socialist]

Try again:
"In Marxist theory, socialism, also called lower-stage communism or the socialist mode of production, refers to a specific historical phase of economic development and its corresponding set of social relations that supersede capitalism in the schema of historical materialism. Socialism is defined as a mode of production where the sole criterion for production is use-value and therefore the law of value no longer directs economic activity. Production for use is coordinated through consciouseconomic planning, while distribution of economic output is based on the principle of To each according to his contribution. The social relations of socialism are characterized by the working-class effectively owning the means of production and the means of their livelihood, either through cooperative enterprises or by public ownership and self management, so that the social surplus accrues to the working class and society as a whole.[1]"

Well....it sure worked well for the old Soviet Union....didn't it? Socialism taking over the means of production. Yet another stupid idea thrown on the scrap heap of history.

The soviet union followed state capitalism, where the state owns the means of production, not the working class, many communists at the time criticized this when stalin came into power, since Lenin laid out the NEP and allowed some private ownership of production, which stalin crushed. Regardless, by what measure did the soviet union fail, apart from revisionists after stalin, not that I support the legacy of the USSR, but I love to examine its history.

Planned State economies have never worked. Ever. The USSR failed economically. How hard is that to understand?

Hence, the reason even China has gone to a hybrid capitalistic economic. Governments don't know shit about business or running the means of production efficiently.

Case in point: Amtrak and the Postal Services for two very specific examples.

Fed Ex and UPS make billions. CSX, Norfolk Southern and other rail make billions.

The Government....loses billions.

It failed economically? By what measures? Here is the GDP per capita:

China went to capitalism after reformism took over, and Mao made many mistakes that led to this..

Your graph is based on CIA data which the institution later admitted was totally inaccurate.

You're a sucker for propaganda.

Really? Mind backing that up, considering everything you disagree with is "marxist" propaganda.

 

[dblack]

No economists says socialism requires democracy. In fact, in practice it can't work without abolishing democracy. In fact, socialism can't work period, but abolishing democracy is always one of the primary steps on the road to socialist oblivion.

Saying socialism requires democracy is like saying you can draw a triangle with four sides.

Socialism doesn't require democracy, it's true - BUT Lenin's grand experiment in St. Petersburg is probably the most pure example of democracy in history. People LITERALLY voted on whether to shoot their neighbors. Nothing was off the table, regional Soviets could and did vote to put families in the Arctic city into the wilds to freeze to death.

Ayn Rand's semi-autobiographical "We the Living" details the horror of what was done there. Socialism mixed with democracy results in the most evil that man is able to inflict on man. Petty squabbles become the catalyst to starve entire families to death as the voters decide the unfavored have no need to eat and have the ability to work until they fall dead.

I've engaged Socialist, and he is ignorant of both history and Marxian theory. But socialism mixed with pure democracy is pure evil.

You keep bringing up st petersburg and yet, I cannot find anything remotely related to support your ludicrous claims. Oh lord, Ayn rand is your source? Socialism mixed with democracy results in the most evil? Based on what, one semi-autobiographical piece of writing by ayn rand and complete ignorance of the revolutionary period in the soviet union?

"Means of production" is me. Socialism is slavery.

 

[Socialist]

[
The soviet union followed state capitalism, where the state owns the means of production,

Capitalism?

And you wonder why no one takes you seriously.

not the working class, many communists at the time criticized this when stalin came into power, since Lenin laid out the NEP and allowed some private ownership of production, which stalin crushed. Regardless, by what measure did the soviet union fail, apart from revisionists after stalin, not that I support the legacy of the USSR, but I love to examine its history.

Can you explain what Stalin did to the Kulaks? Will you stupidly claim that collectivism is capitalist?

You have no knowledge of history, you have no knowledge of economics, and the only knowledge you have of Marx is what you read on Wikipedia.

State Capitalism and Dictatorship
No, I will not claim forced collectivism is capitalist, no one is supporting stalin. I have no knowledge of history or marx? Wow, such an in depth analysis, great job, 10/10.

You keep claiming you're not a Marxist, yet you are constantly spouting Marxist propaganda.

If anything, I'd consider myself a learning Marxist. Yes, we know everything you disagree with is marxist propaganda, just like the world health organization.

 

[bripat9643]

We fought socialism in world war 2? Really? We fought with the USSR against the fascist pigs. In the words of a fascist: "Fascism is a mix of corporate and state power"

We fought against collectivism, yes. Socialism is a form of collectivism. The National Socialist German Workers Party was most certainly an extreme form of socialism.

My God, the Right will do anything to distance themselves from Nazis.

Actually it's the other way round. There are only two types of government systems. Collectivist and individualist. Fascist, Socialist, Communist, are all the same house. They are merely painted slightly different colors. Individualist government in its extreme form is anarchy in other words no government.

Your claim that nazis are right wingers and socialists are left wingers but as any thinking person can tell you that is simply not true. That is a propaganda construct created by the Fabian Socialists to try and distance themselves from the wanton murder of the political systems they helped devise.

For someone who claims to be a "political junky" you sure don't know much about political systems.

Fascism and socialism/communism are not at all related, it's pathetic to try to relate them, considering hitler invaded the soviet union and broke with the "socialist" message after acquiring power.

Of course they are related. They all view individuals as disposable to be used for whatever purpose the state wants. They all oppose private property rights, sound money, the free market, and freedom in general.

 

[Socialist]

No economists says socialism requires democracy. In fact, in practice it can't work without abolishing democracy. In fact, socialism can't work period, but abolishing democracy is always one of the primary steps on the road to socialist oblivion.

Saying socialism requires democracy is like saying you can draw a triangle with four sides.

Socialism doesn't require democracy, it's true - BUT Lenin's grand experiment in St. Petersburg is probably the most pure example of democracy in history. People LITERALLY voted on whether to shoot their neighbors. Nothing was off the table, regional Soviets could and did vote to put families in the Arctic city into the wilds to freeze to death.

Ayn Rand's semi-autobiographical "We the Living" details the horror of what was done there. Socialism mixed with democracy results in the most evil that man is able to inflict on man. Petty squabbles become the catalyst to starve entire families to death as the voters decide the unfavored have no need to eat and have the ability to work until they fall dead.

I've engaged Socialist, and he is ignorant of both history and Marxian theory. But socialism mixed with pure democracy is pure evil.

You keep bringing up st petersburg and yet, I cannot find anything remotely related to support your ludicrous claims. Oh lord, Ayn rand is your source? Socialism mixed with democracy results in the most evil? Based on what, one semi-autobiographical piece of writing by ayn rand and complete ignorance of the revolutionary period in the soviet union?

"Means of production" is me. Socialism is slavery.

No, it's really not, don't know where you would get that idea.

 

[dblack]

No economists says socialism requires democracy. In fact, in practice it can't work without abolishing democracy. In fact, socialism can't work period, but abolishing democracy is always one of the primary steps on the road to socialist oblivion.

Saying socialism requires democracy is like saying you can draw a triangle with four sides.

Socialism doesn't require democracy, it's true - BUT Lenin's grand experiment in St. Petersburg is probably the most pure example of democracy in history. People LITERALLY voted on whether to shoot their neighbors. Nothing was off the table, regional Soviets could and did vote to put families in the Arctic city into the wilds to freeze to death.

Ayn Rand's semi-autobiographical "We the Living" details the horror of what was done there. Socialism mixed with democracy results in the most evil that man is able to inflict on man. Petty squabbles become the catalyst to starve entire families to death as the voters decide the unfavored have no need to eat and have the ability to work until they fall dead.

I've engaged Socialist, and he is ignorant of both history and Marxian theory. But socialism mixed with pure democracy is pure evil.

You keep bringing up st petersburg and yet, I cannot find anything remotely related to support your ludicrous claims. Oh lord, Ayn rand is your source? Socialism mixed with democracy results in the most evil? Based on what, one semi-autobiographical piece of writing by ayn rand and complete ignorance of the revolutionary period in the soviet union?

"Means of production" is me. Socialism is slavery.

No, it's really not, don't know where you would get that idea.

I get it from your posts.

 

[Socialist]

We fought socialism in world war 2? Really? We fought with the USSR against the fascist pigs. In the words of a fascist: "Fascism is a mix of corporate and state power"

We fought against collectivism, yes. Socialism is a form of collectivism. The National Socialist German Workers Party was most certainly an extreme form of socialism.

My God, the Right will do anything to distance themselves from Nazis.

Actually it's the other way round. There are only two types of government systems. Collectivist and individualist. Fascist, Socialist, Communist, are all the same house. They are merely painted slightly different colors. Individualist government in its extreme form is anarchy in other words no government.

Your claim that nazis are right wingers and socialists are left wingers but as any thinking person can tell you that is simply not true. That is a propaganda construct created by the Fabian Socialists to try and distance themselves from the wanton murder of the political systems they helped devise.

For someone who claims to be a "political junky" you sure don't know much about political systems.

Fascism and socialism/communism are not at all related, it's pathetic to try to relate them, considering hitler invaded the soviet union and broke with the "socialist" message after acquiring power.

Of course they are related. They all view individuals as disposable to be used for whatever purpose the state wants. They all oppose private property rights, sound money, the free market, and freedom in general.

You're really falling in line with the "great man" theory, where you view the actions under stalin/hitler as representative of the entirety of what socialism/communism/etc actually represent, while continually ignoring the centuries of works and critiques from all sides in relation to them, along with modern socialist movements.

 

[Socialist]

No economists says socialism requires democracy. In fact, in practice it can't work without abolishing democracy. In fact, socialism can't work period, but abolishing democracy is always one of the primary steps on the road to socialist oblivion.

Saying socialism requires democracy is like saying you can draw a triangle with four sides.

Socialism doesn't require democracy, it's true - BUT Lenin's grand experiment in St. Petersburg is probably the most pure example of democracy in history. People LITERALLY voted on whether to shoot their neighbors. Nothing was off the table, regional Soviets could and did vote to put families in the Arctic city into the wilds to freeze to death.

Ayn Rand's semi-autobiographical "We the Living" details the horror of what was done there. Socialism mixed with democracy results in the most evil that man is able to inflict on man. Petty squabbles become the catalyst to starve entire families to death as the voters decide the unfavored have no need to eat and have the ability to work until they fall dead.

I've engaged Socialist, and he is ignorant of both history and Marxian theory. But socialism mixed with pure democracy is pure evil.

You keep bringing up st petersburg and yet, I cannot find anything remotely related to support your ludicrous claims. Oh lord, Ayn rand is your source? Socialism mixed with democracy results in the most evil? Based on what, one semi-autobiographical piece of writing by ayn rand and complete ignorance of the revolutionary period in the soviet union?

"Means of production" is me. Socialism is slavery.

No, it's really not, don't know where you would get that idea.

I get it from your posts.

Please, back that up, considering the means of production is a complex.
"
The social relationship between individuals in the circulation, production, and use of a commodity is one side of its status. Is it being used to funfill the need of others, or is it being created to fulfill ones own need in exchange?

Another side of it is how does a commodity fulfill human use? A factory produces things for use but itself does not fulfill a human use. A jacket only fulfills a single human's use.
"

 

[bripat9643]

We fought against collectivism, yes. Socialism is a form of collectivism. The National Socialist German Workers Party was most certainly an extreme form of socialism.

My God, the Right will do anything to distance themselves from Nazis.

Actually it's the other way round. There are only two types of government systems. Collectivist and individualist. Fascist, Socialist, Communist, are all the same house. They are merely painted slightly different colors. Individualist government in its extreme form is anarchy in other words no government.

Your claim that nazis are right wingers and socialists are left wingers but as any thinking person can tell you that is simply not true. That is a propaganda construct created by the Fabian Socialists to try and distance themselves from the wanton murder of the political systems they helped devise.

For someone who claims to be a "political junky" you sure don't know much about political systems.

Fascism and socialism/communism are not at all related, it's pathetic to try to relate them, considering hitler invaded the soviet union and broke with the "socialist" message after acquiring power.

Of course they are related. They all view individuals as disposable to be used for whatever purpose the state wants. They all oppose private property rights, sound money, the free market, and freedom in general.

You're really falling in line with the "great man" theory, where you view the actions under stalin/hitler as representative of the entirety of what socialism/communism/etc actually represent, while continually ignoring the centuries of works and critiques from all sides in relation to them, along with modern socialist movements.

The "works and critiques" are irrelevant. Socialists all endorse the same thing: giving government control over your means of survival.

 

[bripat9643]

Socialism doesn't require democracy, it's true - BUT Lenin's grand experiment in St. Petersburg is probably the most pure example of democracy in history. People LITERALLY voted on whether to shoot their neighbors. Nothing was off the table, regional Soviets could and did vote to put families in the Arctic city into the wilds to freeze to death.

Ayn Rand's semi-autobiographical "We the Living" details the horror of what was done there. Socialism mixed with democracy results in the most evil that man is able to inflict on man. Petty squabbles become the catalyst to starve entire families to death as the voters decide the unfavored have no need to eat and have the ability to work until they fall dead.

I've engaged Socialist, and he is ignorant of both history and Marxian theory. But socialism mixed with pure democracy is pure evil.

You keep bringing up st petersburg and yet, I cannot find anything remotely related to support your ludicrous claims. Oh lord, Ayn rand is your source? Socialism mixed with democracy results in the most evil? Based on what, one semi-autobiographical piece of writing by ayn rand and complete ignorance of the revolutionary period in the soviet union?

"Means of production" is me. Socialism is slavery.

No, it's really not, don't know where you would get that idea.

I get it from your posts.

Please, back that up, considering the means of production is a complex.
"
The social relationship between individuals in the circulation, production, and use of a commodity is one side of its status. Is it being used to funfill the need of others, or is it being created to fulfill ones own need in exchange?

Another side of it is how does a commodity fulfill human use? A factory produces things for use but itself does not fulfill a human use. A jacket only fulfills a single human's use.
"

You're spewing Marxist propaganda.

 

[Socialist]

My God, the Right will do anything to distance themselves from Nazis.

Actually it's the other way round. There are only two types of government systems. Collectivist and individualist. Fascist, Socialist, Communist, are all the same house. They are merely painted slightly different colors. Individualist government in its extreme form is anarchy in other words no government.

Your claim that nazis are right wingers and socialists are left wingers but as any thinking person can tell you that is simply not true. That is a propaganda construct created by the Fabian Socialists to try and distance themselves from the wanton murder of the political systems they helped devise.

For someone who claims to be a "political junky" you sure don't know much about political systems.

Fascism and socialism/communism are not at all related, it's pathetic to try to relate them, considering hitler invaded the soviet union and broke with the "socialist" message after acquiring power.

Of course they are related. They all view individuals as disposable to be used for whatever purpose the state wants. They all oppose private property rights, sound money, the free market, and freedom in general.

You're really falling in line with the "great man" theory, where you view the actions under stalin/hitler as representative of the entirety of what socialism/communism/etc actually represent, while continually ignoring the centuries of works and critiques from all sides in relation to them, along with modern socialist movements.

The "works and critiques" are irrelevant. Socialists all endorse the same thing: giving government control over your means of survival.

No socialist wants this, you may be referring to communists calling for a vanguard party and utilization of the state to protect the revolution, which I personally have trouble agreeing with, but to each his own, considering the history of the USSR/china/etc is extremely vivid and interesting when looking at it without following the "great man" bullshit. Have you not heard of libertarian socialists? Anarchists?

 

[dblack]

Socialism doesn't require democracy, it's true - BUT Lenin's grand experiment in St. Petersburg is probably the most pure example of democracy in history. People LITERALLY voted on whether to shoot their neighbors. Nothing was off the table, regional Soviets could and did vote to put families in the Arctic city into the wilds to freeze to death.

Ayn Rand's semi-autobiographical "We the Living" details the horror of what was done there. Socialism mixed with democracy results in the most evil that man is able to inflict on man. Petty squabbles become the catalyst to starve entire families to death as the voters decide the unfavored have no need to eat and have the ability to work until they fall dead.

I've engaged Socialist, and he is ignorant of both history and Marxian theory. But socialism mixed with pure democracy is pure evil.

You keep bringing up st petersburg and yet, I cannot find anything remotely related to support your ludicrous claims. Oh lord, Ayn rand is your source? Socialism mixed with democracy results in the most evil? Based on what, one semi-autobiographical piece of writing by ayn rand and complete ignorance of the revolutionary period in the soviet union?

"Means of production" is me. Socialism is slavery.

No, it's really not, don't know where you would get that idea.

I get it from your posts.

Please, back that up, considering the means of production is a complex.
"
The social relationship between individuals in the circulation, production, and use of a commodity is one side of its status. Is it being used to funfill the need of others, or is it being created to fulfill ones own need in exchange?

Another side of it is how does a commodity fulfill human use? A factory produces things for use but itself does not fulfill a human use. A jacket only fulfills a single human's use.
"

Word salad notwithstanding, socialism claims the individual as state property. Fuck that shit.