Same bullshit, different decade: What members of the gay rights movement could learn from history

[Bfgrn]

WOW, what you just can't get through your thick head is God gave us a free will.

So, I surmise you've never heard of the 10 Commandments. Well, how does it feel to be ignorant of the Bible, again?

And it is NOT YOUR JOB to seek punishment against your fellow man.

Isn't that what you were doing with you "God the avenger" nonsense? Shhh, you don't get to lecture me on "seeking punishment." You're the one with the gavel and the gown, not me.

YOU ARE NOT GOD.

Neither are you. You can stop preaching to me now, I'd call you a Bible thumper, but that wouldn't do justice to Bible thumpers.

Ignorant of the Bible?

So are you saying we should follow the Old testament? If so, let's talk about God sanctioning abortion.

Numbers 5:12-31 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water..... This passage describes a ritual that a husband could force his wife to endure if he suspected that she had engaged in an adulterous relationship. He would take her and an offering of barely meal to the tabernacle, where the priest would make a magical drink consisting of holy water and sweepings from the tabernacle floor. He would have the woman drink the water while he recited a curse on her. The curse would state that her abdomen would swell and her thigh waste away if she had committed adultery. Otherwise, the curse would have no effect. If she were pregnant at this time, the curse would certainly induce an abortion. Yet nobody seems to have been concerned about the fate of any embryo or fetus that was present. Needless to say, there was no similar magical test that a woman could require her husband to take if she suspected him of adultery.

Ahh the "Ordeal of the Bitter Water." Believe it or not, I've read the commentaries.

Notice that nowhere in those verses does it mention pregnancy, or abortion, or God causing an abortion. Drinking the concoction did not cause an abortion, nor did it cause a miscarriage. It would cause her great pain and her belly to bloat. Yet you attributed "thigh to fall away" as "to cause a miscarriage." Did it ever occur to you that the punishment could be that of barrenness? While "thigh" refers to the general area of the sexual organs, "to fall away" literally means that her sexual organs would cease to function and wither away, or atrophy.

What that verse refers to is a test to determine marital fidelity for a woman suspected of committing adultery, abortion is not among the punishments for a breach of the law, the punishment for guilt would be barrenness. If she did it secretly with another man without her husband's knowledge, it would be in the time of the Israelites, that a breach of the sotah law (1 of the 613 mosaic laws) would bring death upon her and her paramour as a punishment. So, nicely done, bellboy, that verse has nothing to do with abortion and more to do with assessing guilt in the the alleged commission of adultery, and moreover has absolutely nothing to do with gay marriage.

Try as you may, you consistently reveal your Biblical incompetence. Your reliance on a debatable interpretation of a four word phrase in the citation is a testament to your dishonesty and inability to discuss the topic at hand. You have lost this debate for all intents and purposes.

No son, you don't get to misinterpret...

The Test for an Unfaithful Wife
11 Then the Lord said to Moses, 12 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If a man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him 13 so that another man has sexual relations with her, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act), 14 and if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure—or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure— 15 then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephaha]">[a] of barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour olive oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder-offering to draw attention to wrongdoing.

16 “‘The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the Lord. 17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. 18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the Lord, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. 19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a curseb]">[b] among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”

“‘Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.”

This has as much to do with gay marriage as the 10 commandments. Gay marriage breaks NONE of the 10 commandments, yet your bigotry has put it above real sins.

 

[TemplarKormac]

This has as much to do with gay marriage as the 10 commandments. Gay marriage breaks NONE of the 10 commandments, yet your bigotry has put it above real sins.

Really, even after I explained it to you, you keep parroting your nonsense. You're hopeless, bellboy. You're relying on the NIV translation. There are 27 other versions of the Bible out there, and thusly 27 different translations. You seriously don't believe you'll get away with your lies?

 

[TemplarKormac]

This has as much to do with gay marriage as the 10 commandments.

No, it doesn't. Gays don't whine about abortion much, they drone on about marriage. Abortion is a non sequitur as far as this discussion goes.

 

[TemplarKormac]

No son, you don't get to misinterpret...

I am not your son, I am your superior.

Now, explain this to me. How can you concoct something specifically for the intent of causing a miscarriage? In that era, their chemical knowledge was severely primitive and seeing as how RU-486 did not come along for oh, another 3500 years, it was impossible. The solution she drank was nothing more than water, a dash of dust from the temple floor, and a drop or two of ink washed from the scroll. None of what that solution consisted of would cause a miscarriage. None of it. So, the solution by itself wouldn't do anything to her. The real action came from God.

Also note how the passage mentions nothing of her being pregnant. She is simply being put before God to assess her marital fidelity. If she was guilty, she was rendered sexually infertile, and would never be able to have another child for the rest of her fertile life.

You can't dictate to me what you think the Bible says. I know what it says. Now, if you could simply read the rest of the book instead of cherrypicking it, then we'd get somewhere.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Gay marriage breaks NONE of the 10 commandments, yet your bigotry has put it above real sins.

You think that the 10 commandments are the only commandments in the Bible. Yeah, you know nothing about it.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Think of it this way. What you're doing is causing dissension among your fellow Christians. By this command, you shouldn't oppose a fellow Christian who doesn't specifically adhere to your way of following Christ.

"And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one
casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not
us: and we forbade him, because he followeth not us.

"But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man
which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly
speak evil of me.

"For he that is not against us is on our part."
(Mark 9:38-40 KJV)

 

[TemplarKormac]

Given that Jesus issued this commandment as he appeared to his disciples after he had risen from the dead, in Matthew 28:19-20:

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

It is safe to say that anyone connected to Jesus in one way or another, including Paul who wrote 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, would be carrying out that command, by issuing other supplemental commands:

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

I know more about the Bible than you can possibly ever hope to match.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Given that Jesus issued this commandment in Matthew 28:19-20:

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

It is safe to say that anyone connected to Jesus in one way or another, including Paul who wrote 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, would be carrying out that command, by issuing other commands:

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

I know more about the Bible than you can possibly ever hope to match.

Then tell us where the Bible forbids a Christian from doing business with a homosexual.

 

[Bfgrn]

No son, you don't get to misinterpret...

I am not your son, I am your superior.

Now, explain this to me. How can you concoct something specifically for the intent of causing a miscarriage? In that era, their chemical knowledge was severely primitive and seeing as how RU-486 did not come along for oh, another 3500 years, it was impossible. The solution she drank was nothing more than water, a dash of dust from the temple floor, and a drop or two of ink washed from the scroll. None of what that solution consisted of would cause a miscarriage. None of it. So, the solution by itself wouldn't do anything to her. The real action came from God.

Also note how the passage mentions nothing of her being pregnant. She is simply being put before God to assess her marital fidelity. If she was guilty, she was rendered sexually infertile, and would never be able to have another child for the rest of her fertile life.

You can't dictate to me what you think the Bible says. I know what it says. Now, if you could simply read the rest of the book instead of cherrypicking it, then we'd get somewhere.

And I am not a 'bellboy'....you certainly are an insecure one, aren't you? Keep pounding your chest, maybe it will make you feel that you are not getting your head handed to you here...son.

 

[TemplarKormac]

And I am not a 'bellboy'....you certainly are an insecure one, aren't you? Keep pounding your chest, maybe it will make you feel that you are not getting your head handed to you here...son

I am quite secure. You are overly melodramatic. But all you had for an argument was your melodrama and monloguing. Keep talking. It only shows how you lost this argument by leaps and bounds, bellboy.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Gay marriage breaks NONE of the 10 commandments, yet your bigotry has put it above real sins.

You think that the 10 commandments are the only commandments in the Bible. Yeah, you know nothing about it.

You yourself posted that Jesus said there was no difference between man and woman. Thus according to Jesus there can be no difference between a man/woman marriage and a man/man marriage and a woman/woman marriage,

therefore, none can be singled out as right or wrong, because they are all the same.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Those four passages speak of and call for a marriage between a man and a woman. They speak of men and women becoming "one flesh." Those verses use these words in conjunction with one another: "he," "she," "her," "him, "himself," "herself," "man," "woman," "male", "female," "wife", and "husband." So, as you can see they are distinct signs that God...nor the Bible had gay marriage in mind. You have no other recourse but to concede defeat this argument.

You posted that Christ said there was no difference between a man and woman.

Do I need to remind you of where you posted that?

Or do you prefer to simply lose the argument in silence?

 

[TemplarKormac]

I wonder. How long can you keep this up? How many days has this been going? Whoa, 10 days.

 

[NYcarbineer]

LOL. Look at bellboy pronouncing judgement on me for not accepting gay marriage.

You can do whatever you want in your church. If your pastor wants to spew discrimination against gays and preach God the avenger who doles out punishment and retribution, go for it man.

No, my pastor preaches from the very same Bible you're using as a cudgel. God isn't going to punish people who go by what standards he set forward for marriage. As far as Christianity is concerned, marriage is a union between a man and a woman. Read, and be laid low:

Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.

22Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansingb her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— 30for we are members of his body. 31“For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”32This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

Ephesians 5:22-33

--------------------------------

3Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”

4“Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’a 5and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’b ? 6So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

Matthew 19:4-6

--------------------------------

21So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribsg and then closed up the place with flesh. 22Then the Lord God made a woman from the ribh he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.

23The man said,

“This is now bone of my bones

and flesh of my flesh;

she shall be called ‘woman,’

for she was taken out of man.”

24That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.

Genesis 2:21-24

--------------------------------

2But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband. 3The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband.

1 Corinthians 7:2-3

--------------------------------

Those four passages speak of and call for a marriage between a man and a woman. They speak of men and women becoming "one flesh." Those verses use these words in conjunction with one another: "he," "she," "her," "him, "himself," "herself," "man," "woman," "male", "female," "wife", and "husband." So, as you can see they are distinct signs that God...nor the Bible had gay marriage in mind. You have no other recourse but to concede defeat this argument.

Christ demanded subservient wives and condemned divorce? lol

Oh btw all that scripture you posted that you think is a condemnation of same sex marriage can as easily be seen as a condemnation of celibacy,

or a condemnation of the person who chooses not to marry.

 

[NYcarbineer]

I wonder. How long can you keep this up? How many days has this been going? Whoa, 10 days.

I enjoy seeing you lose an argument.

 

[TemplarKormac]

And while we are on the subject of abortion, you can answer this question, can't you? This is Ravi Zacharias (of whom I got to see in person at Stegeman Coliseum) in an open forum interview on a talkshow at Ohio State University, in the mid 1990's:

"At Ohio State University, I participated in an open forum on a radio talk show.

From the start, callers were antagonistic. I could feel the tension as soon as the lines lit up. One angry woman, referring to abortion, said, "All you people have is an agenda you're trying to promote. You want to take away our rights and invade our private lives."

Abortion had not even been brought up.

"Just a minute," I replied. "We didn't even raise the subject."

"What is your position on abortion, then?"

I said, "Can I ask you a question? On every university campus I visit, someone stands up and says that God is an evil God to allow all this evil into our world. This person typically says, 'A plane crashes: Thirty people die, and twenty people live. What kind of God would arbitrarily choose some to live and some to die?' "But when we play God and determine whether a child within a mother's womb should live, we argue for that as a moral right. So when human beings are given the privilege of playing God, it's called a moral right. When God plays God, we call it an immoral act. Can you justify this for me?"

That was the end of the conversation."

Growing Your Church Through Evangelism and Outreach, Chapter entitled 'Reaching the Happy Thinking Pagan' by Ravi Zacharias, pp 18-19

 

[NYcarbineer]

I said, "Can I ask you a question? On every university campus I visit, someone stands up and says that God is an evil God to allow all this evil into our world. This person typically says, 'A plane crashes: Thirty people die, and twenty people live. What kind of God would arbitrarily choose some to live and some to die?' "But when we play God and determine whether a child within a mother's womb should live, we argue for that as a moral right. So when human beings are given the privilege of playing God, it's called a moral right. When God plays God, we call it an immoral act. Can you justify this for me?"

That's a comically fallacious argument. Christians do not believe that God's will is evil.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Now, I have better things to do with my day. You can wallow in your defeat. Goodbye.

 

[NYcarbineer]

I wonder. How long can you keep this up? How many days has this been going? Whoa, 10 days.

I can ask the questions, including those with rhetorical value, longer than you can refuse to answer them.

So far...

1. You refuse to respond to the request to cite where in the Bible the Christian is forbidden to do business with a homosexual.

You refuse because the answer is 'nowhere', and you can't bear to say that word.

But since the answer is 'nowhere', it is a valid conclusion to reach that such a belief is not based on Scripture.

It must therefore have been made up. Is it okay to make up beliefs and call them Christian?

Is okay to make up a Christian belief, and then try to place it under the protection of the 1st Amendment as a sincere religious belief and therefore immune to any legal limitation?

 

[NYcarbineer]

Now, I have better things to do with my day. You can wallow in your defeat. Goodbye.

Jesus just turned water into wine. I turn men into assholes.