Zone1 Scriptural and logical evidence of Purgatory

[nomadic5]

No you really don't have evidence.

All you have is the bible and the god of the faps fallacy

ok, whatever

 

[kjw47]

Maybe you shouldn't look for the WORD. The WORD Bible is not there either. And there are other concepts not found there also.

but there is plenty about a place of purgation and being purged AFTER death.

In the Old T, there is the book of Maccabbees, thrown out by Luther and other protestants.

then there is (I believe it is) Mt 18:23 where it speaks of one who is Forgiven but then refuses to forgive his fellow man who owed less than he did, so he is "turned over to the torturers until the last penny is paid."

There is no purgatory-All go to Sheol=Hades=The grave-All thought stops on the day of ones death. Psalm 146:4)--They await the resurrection which occurs after the tribulation and Armageddon.

 

[nomadic5]

There is no purgatory-All go to Sheol=Hades=The grave-All thought stops on the day of ones death. Psalm 146:4)--They await the resurrection which occurs after the tribulation and Armageddon.

guess you'll find out some day?

But you will likely be in that Place of Eternal Regret.

 

[kjw47]

guess you'll find out some day?

But you will likely be in that Place of Eternal Regret.

I already know the facts.

 

[Clyde 154]

Matthew 5:48

says Be perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect

ha ha... right. As if we can be perfect, we who are sinners and can't seem to help being such until the day we die (and maybe even afterward. Jesus said FEW find the narrow way to Heaven...[ didn't have to tell me twice ])

so there's (one of many) Scripture psgs

Here's the logical part

If God is all good and all wise and all loving

He isn't going to toss someone into Hell... Oh, wait.. isn't going to allow someone who follows Him to pitch him/herself into Hell just because of imperfections (violations of Mt 5:48)... imperfections the person may have struggled to overcome but wasn't always successful.. and then death came before it was anticipated...

It quite a stretch to attempt to define a concept that is not found anywhere in the Holy Scriptures by using one misapplied Word...i.e, PERFECT. God is not the author of confusion (1 Cor. 14:33) and most certainly does not used convoluted man made traditions to muddy the Scriptural Waters. The Scriptures self define what is meant by the Greek Word that when translated into English means perfect.



The passage you quote is not to be taken literally to walk in perfection, if walking without sin is how you define perfection. The bible, inspired by the Holy Spirit does not contradict itself. The scriptures teach that everyone sins, (Romans 3:23)....if you say you have sin in your life you are a liar and that in itself is a sin. (1 John 1:8-10)

(Matt. 5:48) The Greek word that is used in Matt. 5:48 is used in other places.......as defined by the subject matter and context it self defines as striving for perfection....i.e, completeness, or to grow to completeness. There was only 1 man born of a woman that walked a sin free life (Jesus Christ) -- Gal. 4:4, 2 Cor. 5:21. The Greek word for Perfection used in Matthew 5 is used again in Matthew 19:20-22.....as defined by the content of the entire verse.......perfection means fully grown or complete.

Paul uses the word again when He tells the disciples of Corinth to GROW UP.....BECOME MATURE or COMPLETE CHRISTIANS (1 Cor. 14:20)

If you are confused about a word and its proper translation, simply go to a portion of the scriptures that define exactly what is meant by the word in question. The Scriptures define perfection as something that is strived for in being a COMPLETE man of God, or a completed work. It means that the Word of God furnishes everything that is required for the Christian to be completely equipped for the struggle along life's path.....with advise or guidance, from God as presented via the truth delivered from Heaven.........the Holy Scriptures.

"All scripture is given by inspiration from God (literally translated it means God Breathed), and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in rightesousness: THAT THE MAN OF GOD MAY BE "PERFECT"...........THROUGHLY FURNISHED UNTO ALL GOODWORKS." -- 2 Tim. 3:16-17 Its the Word of God that is perfect, not the men reading the Word.

That Greek word for perfection? The same Greek word used to describe "The perfect Law of Liberty".....i.,e the Completed New Testament Covenant of Christ Jesus (James 1:25)

PERFECT in Konie Greek: Telefos (when used as adjective)..........Teleoo (when used as noun).

 

[JustAGuy1]

I conclude from the fact that protesters are not coming to this thread that they are of ill will

bad faith

in their anti-Catholic-ness. I doubt I am wrong.

I say they have some worldly agenda for rejecting the Catholic faith... worldly as in: I have a good life not being Catholic.. maybe I'll go to Hell for not investigating what purports to be the One True religion established by Jesus Christ but... I'm fine with that bc Hell is likely a partying place anyhow...

to that I say

See what Jesus, Most Trustworthy Person on Earth EVER

had to say about it

He calls it "eternal punishment" (mt 25:31)

doesn't sound much like a party to me...

Get the hell over yourself, Hubris much?

 

[nomadic5]

I already know the facts.

I know. You know everything. Catholics, on the other hand, just fell off the turnip truck

 

[nomadic5]

Get the hell over yourself, Hubris much?

The last sentence is grammatically incorrect.

 

[nomadic5]

I


The passage you quote is not to be taken literally to walk in perfection, if walking without sin is how you define perfection. The bible, inspired by the Holy Spirit does not contradict itself. The scriptures teach that everyone sins, (Romans 3:23)....if you say you have sin in your life you are a liar and that in itself is a sin. (1 John 1:8-10)

This is all I read.

Keep believing what you want rather than what Jesus wants

I see a bad end in that

 

[kjw47]

I know. You know everything. Catholics, on the other hand, just fell off the turnip truck

Catholicism=2Thess 2:3-they never had Jesus. To this day cant even understand some simple bible milk. Like no Israelite male had long hair( 1Cor 11:14) but in all their pics and such show a hippie Jesus bringing dishonor to his Fathers name.
The bible condemns-statues, icons and graven images, yet the churches and houses are filled with all 3. And the NT teaches-call no man Father( in a spiritual teacher sense) Matt 23:9) it wasnt talking about Dads. Yet the clergy are called Father, the Pope is called holy Father, yet he Fathered 0 spiritually, God fathered it all. The Father is the holy Father. And Only a faithless man surrounds himself with killers for protection. There is a lot wrong in Catholicism.

 

[Arlette]

Jesus didn't say-narrow is the way to heaven. He said Narrow is the road to life.( be saved)
All who know God, know 100% there is no literal eternal suffering.
There is no purgatory in the bible either.

We only know what Jesus' biographers said. Jesus was illiterate

 

[kjw47]

We only know what Jesus' biographers said. Jesus was illiterate

Not hardly.

 

[JustAGuy1]

God has revealed to me the reality ofboth

one example: how is it at all logical, as some atheists and others claim, that this life has no meaning at all.. What would be the point of our often miserable existence? All these problems and never any end except ceasing to exist?

Does that make sense?

Some of us don't have a complaint about ceasing to exist bc it means relief from misery...

Yet the Ancient Church taught ending it all is a mortal sin and I say that is so... not only bc the Church taught it (still does) but because it causes a lot of pain to those left behind and it is a sin to distrust God to that extent... etc...

"ofboth"

"Sentence construction" issues kid, see how that works?

 

[JustAGuy1]

We only know what Jesus' biographers said. Jesus was illiterate

Was He? Can you show us where the Bible says that? I can show you where is called a great teacher and a Rabbi. Nothing illiterate about that honey.

 

[Arlette]

Was He? Can you show us where the Bible says that? I can show you where is called a great teacher and a Rabbi. Nothing illiterate about that honey.

The Bible? The Bible of talking snakes and virgin birth? That Bible?

 

[JustAGuy1]

The Bible? The Bible of talking snakes and virgin birth? That Bible?

That's the one. Prove Jesus was "illiterate" or slink away as the troll you are.

 

[Arlette]

That's the one. Prove Jesus was "illiterate" or slink away as the troll you are.

He didn't write a damn thing down cause he was illiterate

 

[JustAGuy1]

He didn't write a damn thing down cause he was illiterate

You're wrong and you're an ugly Troll.

 

[Mashmont]

A Summary Chart of the differences between Biblical Truth and Catholicism

by Richard Bennett

“Thy Word is Truth”
John 17:17



​

Biblical Truth The Light of God’s Word​ ​	Topic​	New Catechism Catechism of the Catholic Church (1994)​
The Bible only is the Standard for Truth​ “....the scripture cannot be broken.” John. 10:35 “Sanctify them through Thy truth: Thy word is truth.” John. 17:17 “That ye might learn in us not to think...above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.” 1 Corinthians 4:6 “Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.” Proverbs. 30:6 “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” 2 Timothy 3:16-17 “Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered...” Mark. 7:13​	The Basis of​ Truth​	Truth is based on Scripture, Tradition, and the Pope​ “Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together and communicate one with the other.” Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) Para 80 And [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. CCC Para 81 “As a result the [Roman Catholic] Church...does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence.” CCC Para 82 “The Supreme Pontiff, in virtue of his office, possesses infallible teaching authority when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful...he proclaims with a definitive act that a doctrine of faith or morals is to be held as such.” CCC Para 891​
Salvation is by Grace Alone Through Faith​ “Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.” Romans 3:24 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: It is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” Ephesians 2:8, 9 “For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.” Rom 5:17 “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us...” Titus 3:5-6 “I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.” Galatians 2:21​	Salvation by Grace Alone​	For Salvation Grace becomes merely a help and is given through the sacraments of the Church​ “Grace is the help God gives us to respond to our vocation of becoming his adopted sons. It introduces us into the intimacy of the Trinitarian life.” CCC Para2021 The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation. ’Sacramental grace’ is the grace of the Holy Spirit, given by Christ and proper to each sacrament. CCC Para1129 “One who desires to obtain reconciliation with God and with the Church, must confess to a priest all the unconfessed grave sins he remembers after having carefully examined his conscience.” CCC Para 1493​
Faith is the Gift of God and comes by the Word of God​ “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.” Acts 16:31 “For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake.” Philippians 1:29 “So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” Romans 10:17​	Faith is God-given ​ and sustained​	Faith comes through the Mother Church​ ​ “It is the Church that believes first, and so bears, nourishes and sustains my faith.” CCC Para 168 “Salvation comes from God alone; but because we receive the life of faith through the Church, she is our mother:...” Para 169 “Believing” is an ecclesial act. The Church’s faith precedes, engenders, supports and nourishes our faith. The Church is the mother of all believers. ‘No one can have God as Father who does not have the Church as Mother’” CCC Para 181​
Christ’s Sacrifice was His alone and once offered​ “...Jesus said, ‘It is finished:...’” John. 19:30 “But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God” Hebrews 10:12 “...when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;” Hebrews. 1:3​	Christ’s Atonement Sufficient Finished Sacrifice​	Christ’s Sacrifice continues, and is also of the Church​ In this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner.” CCC Para 1367 “The Eucharist is also the sacrifice of the [Roman Catholic] Church. The Church which is the Body of Christ participates in the offering of her Head. With him, she herself is offered whole and entire.” CCC Para 1368​

​

God is the Only All Holy One and the Only Source of Holiness​ “Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.” Isaiah. 6:3 “Who shall not fear Thee, O Lord, and glorify Thy name? For Thou only art Holy: for all nations shall come and worship before Thee...” Revelation. 15: 4 “There is none holy as the Lord: for there is none beside Thee: neither is there any rock like our God.” 1 Samuel.2:2 “I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.” Isaiah 42:8​	God, the Only All Holy One​	Mary is also the All-Holy One and the Source of Holiness​ “By asking Mary to pray for us, we acknowledge ourselves to be poor sinners and we address ourselves to the ‘Mother of Mercy,’ the All Holy One.” CCC Para 2677 “From the [Roman Catholic] Church he learns the example of holiness and recognizes its model and source in the all-holy Virgin Mary....” CCC Para 2030 “The Fathers of the Eastern tradition call the Mother of God ‘the All-Holy’ (Panagia), and celebrate her as ‘free from any stain of sin, as though fashioned by the Holy Spirit and formed as a new creature’” CCC Para 493​
In Salvation the Lord Jesus Christ Alone Mediates​ “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.” 1Timothy. 2:5 “Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name [Jesus Christ] under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved.” Acts 4:12​	One Mediator​	In Salvation “Mary” Also Mediates​ ​ “Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation.... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the [Roman Catholic] Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.” CCC Para 969​
God Hates Idolatry​ “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything...Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them.” Exodus. 20:4-5 “And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even Ten Commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the Lord spake...Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure....” Dt. 4:13, 15-16 “Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen” 1 John. 5:21​	Idolatry​	The Roman Catholic Church Rationalizes Idolatry​ “The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype, and whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it.” CCC Para 2132 “Basing itself on the mystery of the incarnate Word, the seventh ecumenical council at Nicaea (787) justified...the veneration of icons - of Christ, but also of the Mother of God, the angels, and all the saints. By becoming incarnate, the Son of God introduced a new ‘economy’ of images.” CCC Para 2131​
This Pagan Practice is Forbidden in the Bible​ “There shall not be found among you any one... that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer, [one who calls up the dead].” Deut. 18:10-11 “And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits [divination; contacting the dead], and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people. Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I Am the Lord your God.” Leviticus. 20:6-7​	Communion with the Dead​	This Practice is Recommended by Rome​ “Communion with the dead. In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead...Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping “them, bur also of making their intercession for us effective.” CCC Para 958 “The witnesses who have preceded us into the kingdom, especially those whom the Church recognizes as saints, share in the living tradition of prayer...Their intercession is their most exalted service...We can and should ask them to intercede for us and for the whole world.” CCC Para 26​

Man must have good works to reach Heaven. Not only is this Scriptural, it is also obvious. I have no idea why Protestants dispute this.

Romans 2:6 God “will repay each person according to his deeds.”

 

[Clyde 154]

This is all I read.

Keep believing what you want rather than what Jesus wants

I see a bad end in that

I believe what the scriptures tell me, as that is the perfection we should seek after and study. "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not be ashamed, RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH." -- 2 Tim. 2:15


The Scriptures tell me that the Greek word for "perfect" (TELEION) when translated from Greek to English.....means, Complete or Whole not sinless. Use your head for more than a hatrack......think with reason and logic, test all things (1 Thess. 5:21). No man is perfect........no one on earth, except Jesus Christ, has walked without sin. Heaven will be a very lonely place if it takes perfection to enter Heaven, it will be empty. Why? Because Jesus tells us that its impossible to communicate with the dead after the Spirit leaves their body.....when the rich man asked for the chance to warn his relatives that were still living, he was told it was impossible for the living to communicate to the dead (Luke 16). That's what the scriptures tell me.

God would have all men saved, He wants everyone to come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim. 2:4). What is the perfect we as Christian's should seek? The TRUTH delivered by Jesus to mankind, as that was the reason that Jesus came to earth in the form of a man.......to deliver truth from heaven, EVERYONE WHO IS OF THE TRUTH HEARS HIS VOICE. (John 18:37) Why can't you hear the voice of truth spoken by the Christ?

Christians are told to strive for perfection in the attempt to emulate the Christ.....but, being a Christian does not make you immune to this reality called life, with its struggles and temptations. God has given us all things that pertain to life and godliness......the truth from heaven delivered by Jesus Christ (2 Peter 1:3) God has given us the PERFECT (TELEION) LAW of LIBERTY (James 1:25)........that constitutes the Holy Scriptures..........declaring that the scriptures can make the man of God PERFECT (TELEION).....COMPLETED....throughly furnished for righteous works (2 Tim. 3:17

Why can't you find the word "PURGATORY" in the Holy Scriptures? Because the word does not originate from the Holy Spirit of Truth that inspired all scripture (2 Tim. 3:16).....the word "PURGAORTY" comes from the RCC....in the form of man made tradition, just like Worshiping the mother of Jesus (Mary)......Original Sin........The separation of the latiy and clergy with the clergy dressing up like pimps on payday.....while the supposed Leader (Pope) claims to be "infallible". None of these traditions can be found in the Holy Scriptures.