Seattle Defeats The NRA

[2aguy]

There is a story perpetuated by propaganda ministries that the number of gun sales have gone up, and that is why murders have gone down. We've seen that story parroted right here in this topic.

This is why it is particularly funny to see someone saying that correlation does not equal causation when confronted with the fact the percentage of gun ownership has plunged.

"More guns" does not mean "more gun owners".

It's a simple fact there is a much smaller percentage of gun owners in America.

If the rubes buy into the story that gun ownership is linked to the murder rate, then how come they suddenly deny it is when shown the percentage of owners is at a record low?


Hmmmm...

Gun-Homicide Rate Decreased as Gun Ownership Increased


Based on data from a 2012 Congressional Research Service (CRS) report(and additional data from another Wonkblog article “There are now more guns than people in the United States”), the number of privately owned firearms in U.S. increased from about 185 million in 1993 to 357 million in 2013.

-------------------------------
Is gun ownership really down in America? | Fox News

Surely, gun control advocates such as GSS director Tom Smith view this decline as a good thing. In a 2003 book of mine, I quoted Smith as saying that the large drop in gun ownership would “make it easier for politicians to do the right thing on guns” and pass more restrictive regulations.

Other gun control advocates have mentioned to me that they hope that if people believe fewer people own guns, that may cause others to rethink their decision to own one themselves. It is part of the reason they dramatically exaggerate the risks of having guns in the home.

The Associated Press and Time ignored other polls by Gallup and ABC News/Washington Post.

These polls show that gun ownership rates have been flat over the same period. According to Gallup, household gun ownership has ranged from 51 percent in 1994 to 34 percent in 1999. In 2014, it was at 42 percent – comparable to the 43-45 percent figures during the 1970s.

A 2011 Gallup poll with the headline “Self-Reported Gun Ownership in U.S. Is Highest Since 1993” appears to have gotten no news coverage.

The ABC News/Washington Post poll shows an even more stable pattern, with household gun ownership between 44 and 46 percent in 1999. In 2013, the ownership rate was 43 percent.

There are other measures that suggest that we should be very careful of relying too heavily on polling to gauge the level of gun ownership. For example, the nationally number of concealed handgun permits has soared over the last decade: rising from about 2.7 million in 1999 to 4.6 million in 2007 to 11.1 million in 2014.

The National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) shows that the number of gun purchases has grown dramatically over time –doubling from 2006 to 2014.

I didn't realize that Gallup was part of the NRA.....

How about ABC news/Washington Post...are they also on the payroll of the NRA?

Do you have any real data or are you just wishful thinking again?
States with easy to obtain concealed carry permits are less safe from gun violence than States with difficult to obtain concealed carry permits - how do real statistics square with your -ehem- opinion... opinion poll?


Concealed Carry

In regulating the right to carry a concealed weapon, states generally fall into one of two camps: “may issue” and “shall issue.” In the “may issue” states, law enforcement agencies are granted discretion in determining who receives a permit. In the “shall issue” states, law enforcement has little to no discretion, and is obligated to issue a permit to just about any applicant that meets basic requirements. Four states do not require a permit to carry a concealed firearm.

Among the “may issue” states, the average rate of gun homicides in 2013 was only slightly lower than the rate among “shall issue” states, and states that do not require a permit to carry a concealed weapon.

​

.

Can you explain why it is that as more Americans own and carry guns.....we now have over 357 million guns in private hands, and over 13 million people carry guns for self defense......that our gun murder rate has gone down, not up? Our gun suicide rate has gone down, not up? Our gun accidental death rate has gone down, not Up?

I give you credit for working really-really hard trying to make your case but-----but... FAIL

Looking up lists, checking them twice... +,+, then cherry picking the parts that you like and ignoring the parts you don't just makes you look like an ideology driven gun freak - facts be damned.
The facts from your own link tell a different story from the one you wish it told, the fact that there are islands of violence in an otherwise relatively safe state doesn't take away from the fact that states with strong gun laws average having less gun violence than states with lax gun laws - no matter how you try to spin, slice and dice the numbers.

​

While conservatives are busying trying to shutdown any debate on gun control following the 45th school shooting this year by yelling about Chicago’s murder rates — apparently unaware that Chicago is the third largest city in the country but not even in the top five cities with the highest murder rate per capita — and reflexively decrying any mention of gun control as a “gun grab,” what if we just entertained their wildest conspiracy theories for just a bit?

A 2015 study found that when guns are used to kill people in the United States, they are overwhelmingly used for murder rather than self-defense. That study found that in 2012, there were only 259 justifiable homicides, or what is commonly referred to as self-defense, compared to 8,342 criminal firearm homicides. In 2008-2012, the report says, guns were used in 42,419 criminal homicides and only 1,108 justifiable homicides.​

.

And sorry.....nice use of the word "gun violence" because those states that the anti gun studies include for "gun violence" have more suicides, not gun murder..but they throw in suicides to get their numbers high.

Wyoming is a great example that you guys cite all the time......high gun ownership, high gun "violence" ....why?

Because they have more suicides and almost 0 gun murders.......but nice try.

 

[2aguy]

There is a story perpetuated by propaganda ministries that the number of gun sales have gone up, and that is why murders have gone down. We've seen that story parroted right here in this topic.

This is why it is particularly funny to see someone saying that correlation does not equal causation when confronted with the fact the percentage of gun ownership has plunged.

"More guns" does not mean "more gun owners".

It's a simple fact there is a much smaller percentage of gun owners in America.

If the rubes buy into the story that gun ownership is linked to the murder rate, then how come they suddenly deny it is when shown the percentage of owners is at a record low?


Hmmmm...

Gun-Homicide Rate Decreased as Gun Ownership Increased


Based on data from a 2012 Congressional Research Service (CRS) report(and additional data from another Wonkblog article “There are now more guns than people in the United States”), the number of privately owned firearms in U.S. increased from about 185 million in 1993 to 357 million in 2013.

-------------------------------
Is gun ownership really down in America? | Fox News

Surely, gun control advocates such as GSS director Tom Smith view this decline as a good thing. In a 2003 book of mine, I quoted Smith as saying that the large drop in gun ownership would “make it easier for politicians to do the right thing on guns” and pass more restrictive regulations.

Other gun control advocates have mentioned to me that they hope that if people believe fewer people own guns, that may cause others to rethink their decision to own one themselves. It is part of the reason they dramatically exaggerate the risks of having guns in the home.

The Associated Press and Time ignored other polls by Gallup and ABC News/Washington Post.

These polls show that gun ownership rates have been flat over the same period. According to Gallup, household gun ownership has ranged from 51 percent in 1994 to 34 percent in 1999. In 2014, it was at 42 percent – comparable to the 43-45 percent figures during the 1970s.

A 2011 Gallup poll with the headline “Self-Reported Gun Ownership in U.S. Is Highest Since 1993” appears to have gotten no news coverage.

The ABC News/Washington Post poll shows an even more stable pattern, with household gun ownership between 44 and 46 percent in 1999. In 2013, the ownership rate was 43 percent.

There are other measures that suggest that we should be very careful of relying too heavily on polling to gauge the level of gun ownership. For example, the nationally number of concealed handgun permits has soared over the last decade: rising from about 2.7 million in 1999 to 4.6 million in 2007 to 11.1 million in 2014.

The National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) shows that the number of gun purchases has grown dramatically over time –doubling from 2006 to 2014.

I didn't realize that Gallup was part of the NRA.....

How about ABC news/Washington Post...are they also on the payroll of the NRA?

Do you have any real data or are you just wishful thinking again?
States with easy to obtain concealed carry permits are less safe from gun violence than States with difficult to obtain concealed carry permits - how do real statistics square with your -ehem- opinion... opinion poll?


Concealed Carry

In regulating the right to carry a concealed weapon, states generally fall into one of two camps: “may issue” and “shall issue.” In the “may issue” states, law enforcement agencies are granted discretion in determining who receives a permit. In the “shall issue” states, law enforcement has little to no discretion, and is obligated to issue a permit to just about any applicant that meets basic requirements. Four states do not require a permit to carry a concealed firearm.

Among the “may issue” states, the average rate of gun homicides in 2013 was only slightly lower than the rate among “shall issue” states, and states that do not require a permit to carry a concealed weapon.

​

.

Can you explain why it is that as more Americans own and carry guns.....we now have over 357 million guns in private hands, and over 13 million people carry guns for self defense......that our gun murder rate has gone down, not up? Our gun suicide rate has gone down, not up? Our gun accidental death rate has gone down, not Up?

I give you credit for working really-really hard trying to make your case but-----but... FAIL

Looking up lists, checking them twice... +,+, then cherry picking the parts that you like and ignoring the parts you don't just makes you look like an ideology driven gun freak - facts be damned.
The facts from your own link tell a different story from the one you wish it told, the fact that there are islands of violence in an otherwise relatively safe state doesn't take away from the fact that states with strong gun laws average having less gun violence than states with lax gun laws - no matter how you try to spin, slice and dice the numbers.

​

While conservatives are busying trying to shutdown any debate on gun control following the 45th school shooting this year by yelling about Chicago’s murder rates — apparently unaware that Chicago is the third largest city in the country but not even in the top five cities with the highest murder rate per capita — and reflexively decrying any mention of gun control as a “gun grab,” what if we just entertained their wildest conspiracy theories for just a bit?

A 2015 study found that when guns are used to kill people in the United States, they are overwhelmingly used for murder rather than self-defense. That study found that in 2012, there were only 259 justifiable homicides, or what is commonly referred to as self-defense, compared to 8,342 criminal firearm homicides. In 2008-2012, the report says, guns were used in 42,419 criminal homicides and only 1,108 justifiable homicides.​

.

L.A., Chicago Rank 1 and 2 for Gun Murders; N.O. Has Highest Rate

The Los Angeles and Chicago metropolitan areas had the most gun murders among the nation’s fifty most-populous metropolitan areas in 2009 and 2010 (the latest years for which data is available), according to a report released today by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

During those two years, 1,141 people were gunned to death in the Los Angeles metropolitan area and 1,139 were gunned to death in the Chicago metropolitan area. The New York metropolitan area ranked third with 1,101 gun homicides.

The Los Angeles, Chicago and New York metropolitan areas also ranked one, two and three for the number of young people, ages 10-19, who were killed by guns in 2009-2010, with 251 10-19 year olds being gunned down in Los Angeles, 213 in Chicago and 203 in New York.

And of course they have the strictest gun control in the Strictest gun control states.....

 

[The Rabbi]

There is a story perpetuated by propaganda ministries that the number of gun sales have gone up, and that is why murders have gone down. We've seen that story parroted right here in this topic.

This is why it is particularly funny to see someone saying that correlation does not equal causation when confronted with the fact the percentage of gun ownership has plunged.

"More guns" does not mean "more gun owners".

It's a simple fact there is a much smaller percentage of gun owners in America.

If the rubes buy into the story that gun ownership is linked to the murder rate, then how come they suddenly deny it is when shown the percentage of owners is at a record low?


Hmmmm...

Gun-Homicide Rate Decreased as Gun Ownership Increased


Based on data from a 2012 Congressional Research Service (CRS) report(and additional data from another Wonkblog article “There are now more guns than people in the United States”), the number of privately owned firearms in U.S. increased from about 185 million in 1993 to 357 million in 2013.

-------------------------------
Is gun ownership really down in America? | Fox News

Surely, gun control advocates such as GSS director Tom Smith view this decline as a good thing. In a 2003 book of mine, I quoted Smith as saying that the large drop in gun ownership would “make it easier for politicians to do the right thing on guns” and pass more restrictive regulations.

Other gun control advocates have mentioned to me that they hope that if people believe fewer people own guns, that may cause others to rethink their decision to own one themselves. It is part of the reason they dramatically exaggerate the risks of having guns in the home.

The Associated Press and Time ignored other polls by Gallup and ABC News/Washington Post.

These polls show that gun ownership rates have been flat over the same period. According to Gallup, household gun ownership has ranged from 51 percent in 1994 to 34 percent in 1999. In 2014, it was at 42 percent – comparable to the 43-45 percent figures during the 1970s.

A 2011 Gallup poll with the headline “Self-Reported Gun Ownership in U.S. Is Highest Since 1993” appears to have gotten no news coverage.

The ABC News/Washington Post poll shows an even more stable pattern, with household gun ownership between 44 and 46 percent in 1999. In 2013, the ownership rate was 43 percent.

There are other measures that suggest that we should be very careful of relying too heavily on polling to gauge the level of gun ownership. For example, the nationally number of concealed handgun permits has soared over the last decade: rising from about 2.7 million in 1999 to 4.6 million in 2007 to 11.1 million in 2014.

The National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) shows that the number of gun purchases has grown dramatically over time –doubling from 2006 to 2014.

I didn't realize that Gallup was part of the NRA.....

How about ABC news/Washington Post...are they also on the payroll of the NRA?

Do you have any real data or are you just wishful thinking again?
States with easy to obtain concealed carry permits are less safe from gun violence than States with difficult to obtain concealed carry permits - how do real statistics square with your -ehem- opinion... opinion poll?


Concealed Carry

In regulating the right to carry a concealed weapon, states generally fall into one of two camps: “may issue” and “shall issue.” In the “may issue” states, law enforcement agencies are granted discretion in determining who receives a permit. In the “shall issue” states, law enforcement has little to no discretion, and is obligated to issue a permit to just about any applicant that meets basic requirements. Four states do not require a permit to carry a concealed firearm.

Among the “may issue” states, the average rate of gun homicides in 2013 was only slightly lower than the rate among “shall issue” states, and states that do not require a permit to carry a concealed weapon.

​

.

Can you explain why it is that as more Americans own and carry guns.....we now have over 357 million guns in private hands, and over 13 million people carry guns for self defense......that our gun murder rate has gone down, not up? Our gun suicide rate has gone down, not up? Our gun accidental death rate has gone down, not Up?

I give you credit for working really-really hard trying to make your case but-----but... FAIL

Looking up lists, checking them twice... +,+, then cherry picking the parts that you like and ignoring the parts you don't just makes you look like an ideology driven gun freak - facts be damned.
The facts from your own link tell a different story from the one you wish it told, the fact that there are islands of violence in an otherwise relatively safe state doesn't take away from the fact that states with strong gun laws average having less gun violence than states with lax gun laws - no matter how you try to spin, slice and dice the numbers.

​

While conservatives are busying trying to shutdown any debate on gun control following the 45th school shooting this year by yelling about Chicago’s murder rates — apparently unaware that Chicago is the third largest city in the country but not even in the top five cities with the highest murder rate per capita — and reflexively decrying any mention of gun control as a “gun grab,” what if we just entertained their wildest conspiracy theories for just a bit?

A 2015 study found that when guns are used to kill people in the United States, they are overwhelmingly used for murder rather than self-defense. That study found that in 2012, there were only 259 justifiable homicides, or what is commonly referred to as self-defense, compared to 8,342 criminal firearm homicides. In 2008-2012, the report says, guns were used in 42,419 criminal homicides and only 1,108 justifiable homicides.​

.

Sorry, the minute you quote a "study" from the Violence Policy Center it shows you have no idea what you are talking about.....

You know that actual studies show that americans use guns on average 1.5 million times a year, according to bill clinton......

And of course the 259 justifiable homicides does not include all the gun use for self defense....they are only counting dead bodies, not all the times guns are used. Why do you anti gunners never realize how stupid that stat is when you use it.

Why do you think the only defensive gun use that can be used in any stat is the one where the victim kills the violent attacker...........



And as to the Iron Highway...that is a load of crap. Guns are legal products. If someone breaks the law and takes them to New York there is a simple solution...you arrest the guys who use the guns for the crime. All of the other places that have people with gun stores and people actually carrying guns for self defense but the cities with the strictest gun control have the most gun crime.......because their thugs have guns and the law abiding people do not.

Transporting guns into NY is already illegal. What do you want to do to make it super illegal?
(Not you, 2aguy. We're on the same page here).

 

[The Rabbi]

There is a story perpetuated by propaganda ministries that the number of gun sales have gone up, and that is why murders have gone down. We've seen that story parroted right here in this topic.

This is why it is particularly funny to see someone saying that correlation does not equal causation when confronted with the fact the percentage of gun ownership has plunged.

"More guns" does not mean "more gun owners".

It's a simple fact there is a much smaller percentage of gun owners in America.

If the rubes buy into the story that gun ownership is linked to the murder rate, then how come they suddenly deny it is when shown the percentage of owners is at a record low?


Hmmmm...

Gun-Homicide Rate Decreased as Gun Ownership Increased


Based on data from a 2012 Congressional Research Service (CRS) report(and additional data from another Wonkblog article “There are now more guns than people in the United States”), the number of privately owned firearms in U.S. increased from about 185 million in 1993 to 357 million in 2013.

-------------------------------
Is gun ownership really down in America? | Fox News

Surely, gun control advocates such as GSS director Tom Smith view this decline as a good thing. In a 2003 book of mine, I quoted Smith as saying that the large drop in gun ownership would “make it easier for politicians to do the right thing on guns” and pass more restrictive regulations.

Other gun control advocates have mentioned to me that they hope that if people believe fewer people own guns, that may cause others to rethink their decision to own one themselves. It is part of the reason they dramatically exaggerate the risks of having guns in the home.

The Associated Press and Time ignored other polls by Gallup and ABC News/Washington Post.

These polls show that gun ownership rates have been flat over the same period. According to Gallup, household gun ownership has ranged from 51 percent in 1994 to 34 percent in 1999. In 2014, it was at 42 percent – comparable to the 43-45 percent figures during the 1970s.

A 2011 Gallup poll with the headline “Self-Reported Gun Ownership in U.S. Is Highest Since 1993” appears to have gotten no news coverage.

The ABC News/Washington Post poll shows an even more stable pattern, with household gun ownership between 44 and 46 percent in 1999. In 2013, the ownership rate was 43 percent.

There are other measures that suggest that we should be very careful of relying too heavily on polling to gauge the level of gun ownership. For example, the nationally number of concealed handgun permits has soared over the last decade: rising from about 2.7 million in 1999 to 4.6 million in 2007 to 11.1 million in 2014.

The National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) shows that the number of gun purchases has grown dramatically over time –doubling from 2006 to 2014.

I didn't realize that Gallup was part of the NRA.....

How about ABC news/Washington Post...are they also on the payroll of the NRA?

Do you have any real data or are you just wishful thinking again?
States with easy to obtain concealed carry permits are less safe from gun violence than States with difficult to obtain concealed carry permits - how do real statistics square with your -ehem- opinion... opinion poll?


Concealed Carry

In regulating the right to carry a concealed weapon, states generally fall into one of two camps: “may issue” and “shall issue.” In the “may issue” states, law enforcement agencies are granted discretion in determining who receives a permit. In the “shall issue” states, law enforcement has little to no discretion, and is obligated to issue a permit to just about any applicant that meets basic requirements. Four states do not require a permit to carry a concealed firearm.

Among the “may issue” states, the average rate of gun homicides in 2013 was only slightly lower than the rate among “shall issue” states, and states that do not require a permit to carry a concealed weapon.

​

.

Can you explain why it is that as more Americans own and carry guns.....we now have over 357 million guns in private hands, and over 13 million people carry guns for self defense......that our gun murder rate has gone down, not up? Our gun suicide rate has gone down, not up? Our gun accidental death rate has gone down, not Up?

I give you credit for working really-really hard trying to make your case but-----but... FAIL

Looking up lists, checking them twice... +,+, then cherry picking the parts that you like and ignoring the parts you don't just makes you look like an ideology driven gun freak - facts be damned.
The facts from your own link tell a different story from the one you wish it told, the fact that there are islands of violence in an otherwise relatively safe state doesn't take away from the fact that states with strong gun laws average having less gun violence than states with lax gun laws - no matter how you try to spin, slice and dice the numbers.

​

While conservatives are busying trying to shutdown any debate on gun control following the 45th school shooting this year by yelling about Chicago’s murder rates — apparently unaware that Chicago is the third largest city in the country but not even in the top five cities with the highest murder rate per capita — and reflexively decrying any mention of gun control as a “gun grab,” what if we just entertained their wildest conspiracy theories for just a bit?

A 2015 study found that when guns are used to kill people in the United States, they are overwhelmingly used for murder rather than self-defense. That study found that in 2012, there were only 259 justifiable homicides, or what is commonly referred to as self-defense, compared to 8,342 criminal firearm homicides. In 2008-2012, the report says, guns were used in 42,419 criminal homicides and only 1,108 justifiable homicides.​

.

L.A., Chicago Rank 1 and 2 for Gun Murders; N.O. Has Highest Rate

The Los Angeles and Chicago metropolitan areas had the most gun murders among the nation’s fifty most-populous metropolitan areas in 2009 and 2010 (the latest years for which data is available), according to a report released today by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

During those two years, 1,141 people were gunned to death in the Los Angeles metropolitan area and 1,139 were gunned to death in the Chicago metropolitan area. The New York metropolitan area ranked third with 1,101 gun homicides.

The Los Angeles, Chicago and New York metropolitan areas also ranked one, two and three for the number of young people, ages 10-19, who were killed by guns in 2009-2010, with 251 10-19 year olds being gunned down in Los Angeles, 213 in Chicago and 203 in New York.

And of course they have the strictest gun control in the Strictest gun control states.....

Place run by Democrats are way more dangerous than places run by Republicans. Places run by black Democrats are the worst.

 

[2aguy]

So here you go....this guy went south, and bought guns....he passed federally mandated background checks to buy the guns...and then took them where you can't buy guns...New York...and sold them illegally........

How exactly is that a problem with gun laws in the United States?

Each step he took to sell the guns illegally is already a crime.....


'Iron Pipeline' a conduit for illegal weapons to New York

“It’s legal and it’s illegal at the same time,” Bassier told her, explaining that he purchased the weapons legally in Georgia before reselling them illegally in New York.


See.....this is what you guys fail to point out....he bought the guns legally. That means he went through the federally mandated background check, passed that check and then took the guns to New York, and then sold them to criminals, thus breaking the law...

And that is already against the law...so to repeat...he broke existing laws when he sold the guns to criminals.

There is no issue here, he was captured and is going to jail for 25 years....

Do you want to give him more time...sure...go for it.

And just how exactly did they catch him? Did they have to license gun owners to do it? No.

Did they have to register guns to do it? No.

Did the background checks that we already have stop him? No.

Would creating universal background checks stop him? No. Why? Because he was already able to pass current background checks, which means even if you mandate background checks for individuals selling a legal product to another individual who has a clean record, they could sell the gun because the guy would still pass the universal background check.


The key point here.......it is harder for normal, law abiding New Yorkers to buy a gun than it is for a criminal to buy a gun....thanks to you guys.

 

[The Rabbi]

So here you go....this guy went south, and bought guns....he passed federally mandated background checks to buy the guns...and then took them where you can't buy guns...New York...and sold them illegally........

How exactly is that a problem with gun laws in the United States?

Each step he took to sell the guns illegally is already a crime.....


'Iron Pipeline' a conduit for illegal weapons to New York

Pass more laws!
See, libs dont care whether laws work or not. Just passing them means they "care" so they fulfill their responsibility. Because with them it's all about intention, not results.

 

[2aguy]

More on the myth of the iron pipeline

http://nypost.com/2015/10/28/the-trouble-with-brattons-iron-pipeline-gun-complaint/



It’s not as if suppressing gun rights for law-abiding citizens in New York has solved the crime problem. One of our neighbors, Vermont, is the closest of the 50 states to the constitutional ideal. For those over the age of 15, there just aren’t restrictions on carrying a pistol. No permit needed.

What’s the result? When it comes to the rate of gun homicides, Vermont is consistently close to the safest state, if not the safest state, in the union. In 2010, FBI figures put the rate of murders in Vermont at less than a quarter of the rate in New York.

 

[2aguy]

Excuse me........why isn't Vermont a hell hole because of easy access to guns....and don't give me any crap about it being a small state.......if easy access to guns causes gun murder, then Vermont should be hell on earth regardless of it's size....

And yet it isn't..........and you can't get any easier access to guns than vermont....

The Vermont-New York Heroin-and-Guns Carousel That Can Make Dealers a 1,400% Profit


FACT NO.1: Vermont has some of the loosest gun laws in the country. You can legally buy 50-caliber sniper rifles with scopes, sawed-off shotguns, semiautomatic pistols that can kill a moose, and armor-piercing bullets. No background check, no waiting period or limit on how many guns you can buy or own. You can use a false name and need no identification or registration. The magazine size is not restricted. And you can display the new gun on your hip or stuff it in your underpants for all the state cares. All legal. And as long as you “don’t know” the firearms will be used for criminal purposes, you can immediately resell the guns to a 21-year-old with racist insignias on his jacket, two prison escapees from upstate New York, a whacked-out drug dealer, a certified paranoid with a tinfoil hat, or a drunk 16-year-old (that’s the age to own a handgun without parental consent; there’s no age restriction on possessing a rifle or shotgun).

FACT NO.2: Vermont has consistently the first-or second-lowest per capita murder rate in the country. The state had only eight murders in 2012, only two of which related to firearms.

“And so we can absolutely say,” Cooke concludes, “a) an abundance of firearms and a set of loose regulations do not inevitably lead to more crime, and b) that the widespread suggestion that they do is dishonest.”

 

[The Rabbi]

Excuse me........why isn't Vermont a hell hole because of easy access to guns....and don't give me any crap about it being a small state.......if easy access to guns causes gun murder, then Vermont should be hell on earth regardless of it's size....

And yet it isn't..........and you can't get any easier access to guns than vermont....

The Vermont-New York Heroin-and-Guns Carousel That Can Make Dealers a 1,400% Profit


FACT NO.1: Vermont has some of the loosest gun laws in the country. You can legally buy 50-caliber sniper rifles with scopes, sawed-off shotguns, semiautomatic pistols that can kill a moose, and armor-piercing bullets. No background check, no waiting period or limit on how many guns you can buy or own. You can use a false name and need no identification or registration. The magazine size is not restricted. And you can display the new gun on your hip or stuff it in your underpants for all the state cares. All legal. And as long as you “don’t know” the firearms will be used for criminal purposes, you can immediately resell the guns to a 21-year-old with racist insignias on his jacket, two prison escapees from upstate New York, a whacked-out drug dealer, a certified paranoid with a tinfoil hat, or a drunk 16-year-old (that’s the age to own a handgun without parental consent; there’s no age restriction on possessing a rifle or shotgun).

FACT NO.2: Vermont has consistently the first-or second-lowest per capita murder rate in the country. The state had only eight murders in 2012, only two of which related to firearms.

“And so we can absolutely say,” Cooke concludes, “a) an abundance of firearms and a set of loose regulations do not inevitably lead to more crime, and b) that the widespread suggestion that they do is dishonest.”

Its because they have very few blacks there, and Hispanics.

 

[2aguy]

And of course there is the truth about the anti gunners and their stats....

No, states with higher gun ownership mean don't have more gun murders

That looks a lot like a shotgun blast, because at least in 2014, the statistical case that high state gun ownership translates to more gun homicides was non-existent. This is what happens when you just look at the relevant numbers instead of cherrypicking whatever numbers tell the story you want. There's no significant statistical correlation here, whether or not you choose to include D.C. (the outlier, way up above the others). And in fact, when you just look at last year's gun homicide rate by state (calculated from FBI and Census data), you see that many of the states that they claim have low "gun death" rates actually have comparatively high rates of gun murders. New Jersey, for example, had a much higher gun murder rate than Idaho and Vermont.

----------------------
So now you see why Vox, Mother Jones and others deliberately confuse the issue of gun violence by including gun deaths that don't involve violence: because their cherrypicking makes it seem like people in states with high gun ownership are more likely to shoot other people, when in fact it just isn't so. Perhaps there's another argument to be had about suicide, but it's a very different sort of debate. When most people think about gun control, they're worried about whether it can help stop them from being shot, not about whether it will prevent them from having a gun in case they become incredibly depressed and decide to end it all.

 

[2aguy]

And another article that looks at cooking the books on gun ownership......

Would Cracking Down on Guns in the U.S. Really Reduce Violence? , by Robert VerBruggen, National Review

There is actually no simple correlation between states’ homicide rates and their gun-ownership rates or gun laws.
This has been shown numerous times, by different people, using different data sets.

A year ago, I took state gun-ownership levels reported by the Washington Post (based on a Centers for Disease Control survey) and compared them with murder rates from the FBI: no correlation.

The legal scholar Eugene Volokh has compared states’ gun laws (as rated by the anti-gun Brady Campaign) with their murder rates: no correlation.

David Freddoso of the Washington Examiner, a former National Review reporter, failed to find a correlation even between gun ownership in a state and gun murders specifically, an approach that sets aside the issue of whether gun availability has an effect on non-gun crime. (Guns can deter unarmed criminals, for instance, and criminals without guns may simply switch to other weapons.)


, I recently redid my analysis with a few tweaks. Instead of relying on a single year of survey data, I averaged three years. (The CDC survey, the best available for state-level numbers, included data on gun ownership only in 2001, 2002, and 2004. Those were the years I looked at.)

And instead of comparing CDC data with murder rates from a different agency, I relied on the CDC’s own estimates of death by assault in those years. Again: no correlation.

 

[Rustic]

Barking up the wrong tree, Career politicians and their supporters have no clue, more laws will never work.
Like putting a Band-Aid on a broken arm, it looks good to the dumbasses but anyone with any common sense conceid that it will never work...

Walls and regulations are only good for one thing, taking away people's freedoms...

 

[2aguy]

And the real neat thing the author finds.....that non gun murder is higher in states that have high gun murder...which shows that the state has a lot of violent killers, and it isn't guns that are the problem........

Left-leaning media outlets, from Mother Jones to National Journal, get around this absence of correlation by reporting numbers on “gun deaths” rather than gun homicides or homicides in general. More than 60 percent of gun deaths nationally are suicides, and places with higher gun ownership typically see a higher percentage of their suicides committed with a gun. Focusing on the number of gun deaths practically guarantees a finding that guns and violence go together.

While it may be true that public policy should also seek to reduce suicide, it is homicide — often a dramatic mass killing — that usually prompts the media and politicians to call for gun control, and it is homicide that most influences people as they consider supporting measures to take away their fellow citizens’ access to guns.

There are large gaps among the states when it comes to homicide, with rates ranging all the way from about two to twelve per 100,000 in 2013, the most recent year of data available from the CDC. These disparities show that it’s not just guns that cause the United States to have, on average, a higher rate of homicide than other developed countries do.


Not only is there no correlation between gun ownership and overall homicide within a state, but there is a strong correlation between gun homicide and non-gun homicide — suggesting that they spring from similar causes, and that some states are simply more violent than others. A closer look at demographic and geographic patterns provides some clues as to why this is.

 

[The Rabbi]

And the real neat thing the author finds.....that non gun murder is higher in states that have high gun murder...which shows that the state has a lot of violent killers, and it isn't guns that are the problem........

Left-leaning media outlets, from Mother Jones to National Journal, get around this absence of correlation by reporting numbers on “gun deaths” rather than gun homicides or homicides in general. More than 60 percent of gun deaths nationally are suicides, and places with higher gun ownership typically see a higher percentage of their suicides committed with a gun. Focusing on the number of gun deaths practically guarantees a finding that guns and violence go together.

While it may be true that public policy should also seek to reduce suicide, it is homicide — often a dramatic mass killing — that usually prompts the media and politicians to call for gun control, and it is homicide that most influences people as they consider supporting measures to take away their fellow citizens’ access to guns.

There are large gaps among the states when it comes to homicide, with rates ranging all the way from about two to twelve per 100,000 in 2013, the most recent year of data available from the CDC. These disparities show that it’s not just guns that cause the United States to have, on average, a higher rate of homicide than other developed countries do.


Not only is there no correlation between gun ownership and overall homicide within a state, but there is a strong correlation between gun homicide and non-gun homicide — suggesting that they spring from similar causes, and that some states are simply more violent than others. A closer look at demographic and geographic patterns provides some clues as to why this is.

I think you just schlonged the opposition here.

 

[deltex1]

.

Taxpayers win, sort of...!

The amount of revenue this tax will bring in barely scratches the surface of covering the cost of gun violence in Seattle.


Judge upholds Seattle 'gun violence tax,' dismisses NRA suit
By Associated Press
22 December 2015

<snip>

Between 2006 and 2010, there were on average 131 firearms deaths a year in King County, according to Public Health-Seattle and King County. An additional 536 people required hospitalization for shooting injuries during that time.

Officials say the direct medical costs of treating 253 gunshot victims at Harborview Medical Center in 2014 totaled more than $17 million. Taxpayers paid more than $12 million of that. City officials estimate the new tax would bring in $300,000 to $500,000 a year, but gun shop owners told council members those numbers were inflated. They said the law would cost them customers and sales and could force them to move out of the city.


<snip.

.

Now I can take Seattle and Virginia off my bucket list...

 

[2aguy]

.

Taxpayers win, sort of...!

The amount of revenue this tax will bring in barely scratches the surface of covering the cost of gun violence in Seattle.


Judge upholds Seattle 'gun violence tax,' dismisses NRA suit
By Associated Press
22 December 2015

<snip>

Between 2006 and 2010, there were on average 131 firearms deaths a year in King County, according to Public Health-Seattle and King County. An additional 536 people required hospitalization for shooting injuries during that time.

Officials say the direct medical costs of treating 253 gunshot victims at Harborview Medical Center in 2014 totaled more than $17 million. Taxpayers paid more than $12 million of that. City officials estimate the new tax would bring in $300,000 to $500,000 a year, but gun shop owners told council members those numbers were inflated. They said the law would cost them customers and sales and could force them to move out of the city.


<snip.

.

Now I can take Seattle and Virginia off my bucket list...

I imagine Illinois is already on it?

 

[2aguy]

Where exactly do criminals get their guns...not gun shows....


These ideas, while important, do not address the core of the gun-violence problem: male-on-male acts of aggression, largely by men with criminal records, sometimes quite extensive ones. Few career criminals get their guns from licensed dealers, where a background check would be run and records kept. Inmate surveys indicate that criminals overwhelmingly get their guns through social connections instead.

A recent study of 99 criminals facing weapons charges in the Chicago area revealed why they were more likely to have acquired guns through social connections than in private deals with strangers. Illicit gun sellers avoid doing business with strangers because they worry about being caught in a sting operation; buyers, meanwhile, are fearful of being sold a gun that has been used in a crime.

Most of the guns that criminals use are old and change hands repeatedly, sometimes being borrowed rather than sold. However, legally purchased guns often quickly make their way to criminals; several inmates reported that gun suppliers bought weapons in stores, reported them stolen, and resold them.

Read more at: Would Cracking Down on Guns in the U.S. Really Reduce Violence? , by Robert VerBruggen, National Review


So....the absolute best way to lower gun crime....divert more police money and manpower to sting operations and finding snitches...........that and long jail sentences...

And as I always point out.......by doing the above...you actually target criminals, and stopping them...and you leave normal, law abiding gun owners alone.

 

[Abishai100]

Seattle Brew: American Arrogance

Seattle is a very interesting city culturally. Geographically, its position in the American Northwest makes it a symbolic U.S. state for traffic meditation (since it serves as a lighthouse for traffic concerns rather than a beacon or hub such as San Diego, Miami, or New York). It is also the place where Grunge Rock created the first real revival in American rock and roll after the '60s and before the Brit-pop invasion. And who doesn't like the Seahawks (e.g., Steve Largent, Matt Hasselbeck)?

Seattle is therefore a great place to talk about 'populism politics,' and this NRA decision could prove to be a watershed or watermark in America's historical dialogue surrounding a citizen's right to bear arms.

If this kind of a legal event took place in a more traffic-anxious American city such as Los Angeles or Boston, I think we'd talk much more about economics rather than political philosophy, no?

 

[Iceweasel]

Seattle Brew: American Arrogance

Seattle is a very interesting city culturally. Geographically, its position in the American Northwest makes it a symbolic U.S. state for traffic meditation (since it serves as a lighthouse for traffic concerns rather than a beacon or hub such as San Diego, Miami, or New York). It is also the place where Grunge Rock created the first real revival in American rock and roll after the '60s and before the Brit-pop invasion. And who doesn't like the Seahawks (e.g., Steve Largent, Matt Hasselbeck)?

Seattle is therefore a great place to talk about 'populism politics,' and this NRA decision could prove to be a watershed or watermark in America's historical dialogue surrounding a citizen's right to bear arms.

If this kind of a legal event took place in a more traffic-anxious American city such as Los Angeles or Boston, I think we'd talk much more about economics rather than political philosophy, no?

You are trying really hard to make facts fit into some kind of belief. Seattle is uber liberal and they keep getting shot down by the state court when they try to ban guns so this is as far as they could get for now.

 

[SuperDemocrat]

And watch gun dealers move out f Seattle to the suburbs, depriving the city of tax revenue.
AMazingly every attempt to "stilck it" to gun owners falls flat.

That is probably what they want. Tax and regulate it do death.