Share faith...lose your job

[JakeStarkey]

An atheist asked me once how to know God. My answer was simply to serve his fellow man with love. I am troubled that any religious organization would require "conversion" (however that is defined) of someone in order to help him. The Christ helped the Syro-Phoenician woman (Mark 7:25 - 30) without requirement, even though as a Greek "heathen" she should have been ignored. If one runs a soup kitchen, one should be concerned about taking care of the poor, not proslytizing them as a requirement for help.

 

[KittenKoder]

It's your personal opinion that it's not 'right'. I don't see anything wrong with it at all, nor are they abusing anything.

There's that word conversion again. What kind of conversion? And what do you have to back up your assertion that this is wide spread?

Conversion is the practice of one belief system when you had been practicing another or none at all prior.

It is abuse, taking advantage of those who have little to no choice is the definition of abuse.

My "assertion" as I already pointed out to you, is that I have dealt with the system in on form or another through almost every state. I can count the number of states I have not lived in on my hands.

So, let me get this straight, you walk into a charitable christian organization and they ask you first if you are a christian and if you answer 'no', they tell you not to come back until you've 'converted'?

You are probably not really comprehending what I posted, so I won't repeat it again. Many do require a sort of conversion, yes, and I have seen many of them in most states. As I said, I have been almost everywhere in this country and been in the "system" a long time as well as worked in the "system".

 

[Newby]

I call bullshit on requiring conversion before you get help. I've been involved in charitable organizations through my church, and I've never heard of any such thing.

 

[Newby]

Conversion is the practice of one belief system when you had been practicing another or none at all prior.

It is abuse, taking advantage of those who have little to no choice is the definition of abuse.

My "assertion" as I already pointed out to you, is that I have dealt with the system in on form or another through almost every state. I can count the number of states I have not lived in on my hands.

So, let me get this straight, you walk into a charitable christian organization and they ask you first if you are a christian and if you answer 'no', they tell you not to come back until you've 'converted'?

You are probably not really comprehending what I posted, so I won't repeat it again. Many do require a sort of conversion, yes, and I have seen many of them in most states. As I said, I have been almost everywhere in this country and been in the "system" a long time as well as worked in the "system".

If they're so prevalent, then could you name some of these organizations that require a 'sort of' conversion? Whatever the hell that is.

 

[Newby]

What exactly do you have to do to prove that you're 'converted'? What are the steps to being 'converted'? Give some details.

 

[KittenKoder]

So, let me get this straight, you walk into a charitable christian organization and they ask you first if you are a christian and if you answer 'no', they tell you not to come back until you've 'converted'?

You are probably not really comprehending what I posted, so I won't repeat it again. Many do require a sort of conversion, yes, and I have seen many of them in most states. As I said, I have been almost everywhere in this country and been in the "system" a long time as well as worked in the "system".

If they're so prevalent, then could you name some of these organizations that require a 'sort of' conversion? Whatever the hell that is.

Wow ... did you completely ignore what I had posted on what conversion is?

"Religious practices (such as participating in services or listening to preachers also fall into this) which are not the ones you originally practiced."

Requiring them to go to sermons is also one form of conversion if they would not have gone otherwise. Either read the posts or don't bother addressing the point, because you are looking a fool now, at least to me.

 

[AllieBaba]

Okay, I'm sure you're just full of examples of how christian ministries that help the poor gain power by giving them food and clothing.

Organized religions hinge on the number of followers, there are some christians who do not follow the organization ideology thankfully but the churches are dependent on those. So to make people participate in their religious practices in order to get what they need to live is a form of gaining power, and it's wrong. It would be the same as if the KKK expected people to become white supremacists for food, or for Islamist extremists to expect you to be a suicide bomber for food.

If you want to help, give it to them without more than a request that they try to become self sufficient, anything more is indoctrination.

I've never denied that there are some out there that operate the way you describe, but it is not the majority that is being implied here. Furthermore, how many of those people helped actually join the church and become active, contributing members to the congregation? What percentage of the people that they help?

Adults are being indoctrinated? Once again you're assuming that the poor or hungry are mindless, stupid sheep that will do anything for the hand that helps them out? Is that your assertion?

Many, many people who come to the churches looking for a hand out are actively seeking God anyway. The churches help them, they aren't required to attend or listen to testimony as a condition. The churches also frequently find jobs for them, sometimes with the church (think Salvation Army) and sometimes not. People who are down see the example the Christians set and often decide to give it a try. I don't see that as indoctrination at all. I see it as people recognizing their current way of life isn't a successful one, and making the decision on their own to change their lives.

 

[AllieBaba]

P.S. I've put in my time at Christian food banks, and have in my past actually accessed them myself, so I speak from experience.

 

[Newby]

You are probably not really comprehending what I posted, so I won't repeat it again. Many do require a sort of conversion, yes, and I have seen many of them in most states. As I said, I have been almost everywhere in this country and been in the "system" a long time as well as worked in the "system".

If they're so prevalent, then could you name some of these organizations that require a 'sort of' conversion? Whatever the hell that is.

Wow ... did you completely ignore what I had posted on what conversion is?

"Religious practices (such as participating in services or listening to preachers also fall into this) which are not the ones you originally practiced."

Requiring them to go to sermons is also one form of conversion if they would not have gone otherwise. Either read the posts or don't bother addressing the point, because you are looking a fool now, at least to me.

If that's what you call conversion, you need help. So, they have to go to a church service before they are given help? That's what you are claiming now?

This is what you said, which is completely different than what you are now claiming:

Conversion is the practice of one belief system when you had been practicing another or none at all prior.

 

[KittenKoder]

P.S. I've put in my time at Christian food banks, and have in my past actually accessed them myself, so I speak from experience.

Food banks don't usually do that (it would be impractical anyway), I was talking more along the lines of homeless "missions", shelters that are basically religious recruitment centers.

 

[JakeStarkey]

I think I can see both sides of the discussion now. Having to listen to the sermon in order to get shelter and a shower and a couple of meals is a form of forced proslytizing. If I were needy and in that situation, I could easily sit there and doze with my eyes open, but I do understand with KittenKoder is saying. I also believe that such situations are not "christian" in practice, in my opinion.

 

[Shogun]

Jim Baker from the 80's has what to do with the topic? Your assertion that there are people who have misused religion in the past, and misuse religion right now means that all christians are doing the same thing? Is that really your argument here? Seriously?

Do I care if you're impressed? Ego much?

don't get all bent out of shape because I can literally show you example after example of dogma junkie motherfuckers using the dangled carrot of food or salvation to accrue power, wealth and influence. By all means, batshit crazy nutter, go ahead and keep denying gravity.

I don't give a damn how many you show. You've yet to explain how they're gaining 'wealth, power, and influence' by feeding the poor and speaking to them about God while they're helping them.

of COURSE you don't. Batshit crazy xtians have NEVER been all that moved by evidence.

Review the 19th and 20th century in europe, Extra Crunchy.

 

[Shogun]

it's the church's money and if they want to minister to those they are helping while they are helping them, that's their perogative.


THAT is really all you needed to say, isn't it Extra Crunchy? Nothing like a good ole rationalized excuse for the dangled carrot from a self righteous dogma junkie to really prove my point. Maybe we should take a lesson from your kind and require you to believe in evolution before your demographic drains the welfare coffers....

 

[Ravi]

If you were my employee and harassed the other employees over this or any subject I'd fire you, too.

I said nothing about "harrassment." That is your incorrect perception. I have no problem with being fired for sharing my faith, if I did it in the leading of God. If I did it "just because I can," I believe I would be doing it with a negative motive.

You see, The Holy Spirit in me is an awesome thing. He is alive, and really does have something to say. When I yield to His leading, He will take care of me regarding those who would want to fire me. If they do fire me, I just take that as God's permission, and move on to wherever God leads me. It is an exciting life.

You said, and I quote:

I share my faith whenever and wherever I am led to do so. I have an awesome relationship with God, and He is like a ball of energy inside of me. I do work for the government, and God goes with me there. I work in the schools, and God goes with me there. If He has something to say, I experience an energy that I cannot explain, and I share.

To me that sounds like you have absolutely no control over yourself and are apt to start sermonizing at any given moment. THAT is harassment of the other employees, IMO.

That's fine if you don't mind getting fired for being a pain in the ass, but don't go pretending you are being persecuted.

 

[Smartt33]

You are probably not really comprehending what I posted, so I won't repeat it again. Many do require a sort of conversion, yes, and I have seen many of them in most states. As I said, I have been almost everywhere in this country and been in the "system" a long time as well as worked in the "system".

If they're so prevalent, then could you name some of these organizations that require a 'sort of' conversion? Whatever the hell that is.

Wow ... did you completely ignore what I had posted on what conversion is?

"Religious practices (such as participating in services or listening to preachers also fall into this) which are not the ones you originally practiced."

Requiring them to go to sermons is also one form of conversion if they would not have gone otherwise. Either read the posts or don't bother addressing the point, because you are looking a fool now, at least to me.

I have been a Christian for 52 years, and I have been all over the country also. I have not seen any Christian organization require conversion, or even going to meetings and listen to sermons, in order to get charity. It is offered, but not required.

Then there are those extreme people who are prosperity gospel preachers, false prophets, etc, who are very demanding. They are far and few between among "Christian charity organizations."

So, It is basically a lie, with a select few exceptions.

Where is the outcry of the Muslims requiring heads if a person doesn't convert. And, those creepy land salesmen who require you to view their long presentations before you get your "FREE" prize that you have "WON". This kind of thing is wrong, no matter who does it.

 

[Smartt33]

it's the church's money and if they want to minister to those they are helping while they are helping them, that's their perogative.


THAT is really all you needed to say, isn't it Extra Crunchy? Nothing like a good ole rationalized excuse for the dangled carrot from a self righteous dogma junkie to really prove my point. Maybe we should take a lesson from your kind and require you to believe in evolution before your demographic drains the welfare coffers....

Are you saying that Christian organizations should not do that which they are commanded to do, preach and teach about the awesome good news of the Savior Jesus?

They do not force it on anyone, and you cannot include radical groups in this discussion because they are not the average Christian groups. They provide opportunity for hearing the message of Salvation. I cannot name any mainstream Christian organization that "forces" the Gospel on anyone. Can you?

 

[Smartt33]

If you were my employee and harassed the other employees over this or any subject I'd fire you, too.

I said nothing about "harrassment." That is your incorrect perception. I have no problem with being fired for sharing my faith, if I did it in the leading of God. If I did it "just because I can," I believe I would be doing it with a negative motive.

You see, The Holy Spirit in me is an awesome thing. He is alive, and really does have something to say. When I yield to His leading, He will take care of me regarding those who would want to fire me. If they do fire me, I just take that as God's permission, and move on to wherever God leads me. It is an exciting life.

You said, and I quote:

I share my faith whenever and wherever I am led to do so. I have an awesome relationship with God, and He is like a ball of energy inside of me. I do work for the government, and God goes with me there. I work in the schools, and God goes with me there. If He has something to say, I experience an energy that I cannot explain, and I share.

To me that sounds like you have absolutely no control over yourself and are apt to start sermonizing at any given moment. THAT is harassment of the other employees, IMO.

That's fine if you don't mind getting fired for being a pain in the ass, but don't go pretending you are being persecuted.

Naw, it is not harassment. But we disagree, so be it. I am in control, I could not allow God to speak and lead me, but I choose to allow it.

 

[Newby]

it's the church's money and if they want to minister to those they are helping while they are helping them, that's their perogative.


THAT is really all you needed to say, isn't it Extra Crunchy? Nothing like a good ole rationalized excuse for the dangled carrot from a self righteous dogma junkie to really prove my point. Maybe we should take a lesson from your kind and require you to believe in evolution before your demographic drains the welfare coffers....

It's their money and they can do what they want with it, period. If you don't like it, don't donate, which I'm sure you don't. You can sit here all damn day saying that there are requirements to receive charity, but in the end your words are false no matter how many times you repeat them.

 

[HUGGY]

If they're so prevalent, then could you name some of these organizations that require a 'sort of' conversion? Whatever the hell that is.

Wow ... did you completely ignore what I had posted on what conversion is?

"Religious practices (such as participating in services or listening to preachers also fall into this) which are not the ones you originally practiced."

Requiring them to go to sermons is also one form of conversion if they would not have gone otherwise. Either read the posts or don't bother addressing the point, because you are looking a fool now, at least to me.

I have been a Christian for 52 years, and I have been all over the country also. I have not seen any Christian organization require conversion, or even going to meetings and listen to sermons, in order to get charity. It is offered, but not required.

Then there are those extreme people who are prosperity gospel preachers, false prophets, etc, who are very demanding. They are far and few between among "Christian charity organizations."

So, It is basically a lie, with a select few exceptions.

Where is the outcry of the Muslims requiring heads if a person doesn't convert. And, those creepy land salesmen who require you to view their long presentations before you get your "FREE" prize that you have "WON". This kind of thing is wrong, no matter who does it.

So, It is basically a lie, with a select few exceptions.


You are so full of shit.

Here are a few "exceptions" Every fuckin 12 step program in existance. Maybe a couple thousand.

 

[Shogun]

it's the church's money and if they want to minister to those they are helping while they are helping them, that's their perogative.


THAT is really all you needed to say, isn't it Extra Crunchy? Nothing like a good ole rationalized excuse for the dangled carrot from a self righteous dogma junkie to really prove my point. Maybe we should take a lesson from your kind and require you to believe in evolution before your demographic drains the welfare coffers....

Are you saying that Christian organizations should not do that which they are commanded to do, preach and teach about the awesome good news of the Savior Jesus?

They do not force it on anyone, and you cannot include radical groups in this discussion because they are not the average Christian groups. They provide opportunity for hearing the message of Salvation. I cannot name any mainstream Christian organization that "forces" the Gospel on anyone. Can you?

i'm saying that your jesus myth and all the ramifications of "what you are commanded to do" in no way shape or form trumps the legal ramifications of your actions. You don't mind getting fired? Fine. Hasta la vista. If your entire excuse is that jebus commands you to ignore your job function for the sake of spontaneous revival on company time then don't both crying about persecution when you get fired.


trust me, no one wants to hear your trite bullshit. No one cares that you think miracle brother joe healed your eyesight by the power vested in the name of jebus. No one wants your outmoded dogma crap this side of the age of enlightenment. Indeed, YOUR kind are facing extinction. enjoy your emaciated attendance if you can manage to keep using dangled food like carrot on a poverty stick.





and yes, I can include anyone I want in my example. It's funny when you silly bastards try to distance yourself from the same pattern that we see time and again. Feel free to take your silly superstitious ass back the dark ages where your kind thrived.