Shlomo Sand - "The Invention of" Jewish history

[amity1844]

Israeli Researcher Challenges Jewish DNA links to Israel, Calls Those Who Disagree 'Nazi Sympathizers' - Forbes

Here's an analysis of the situation which I think is worth reading. It appears that this is simply one more propaganda effort by the Israel-haters.

Hey, thanks, that is an interesting article and it links to more interesting articles.

I don't think Dr. Ariella Oppenheim, who did the studies I was referring to is of this ilk, however. She was apparently tracing the so called "cohanim haplotype" through Palestinian population and argues that Palestinians descended from ancient Jews.

She has also demonstrated that the haplotypes of modern European Jews are about 72% descend from ancient Jews. I haven't read everything on this list yet by a long shot, but apparently the Khazars and other blood lines and in there, too, but not in significant amounts. So Arthur Koestler's The Thirteenth Tribe thesis is effectively debunked.

I'll let the Palestinians know to drop it!

Really I am loving these articles. I hope this type of research FINALLY and unequivocally puts all racism out to the backwater of history for all time.

 

[Roudy]

So your handler provides you with quotes from colonialists and Zionists, huh?

Ha ha ha, you are a joke. Mark Twain wasn't a colonialist moron. Neither were the historians writers and archeologists in those quotes.

Slapped again with the truth, huh?

Hey, look, I love Mark Twain, detest those who want to censor his work (why deny who we were?) but honestly as far as international affairs go, he was definitely a product of his time.

But you called him and other historians and archeologists who traveled and documented what they saw, "colonialists". Which means when you are fighting a false cause (as you are), with lies and false propaganda, you naturally have difficultly handling the truth. You're just a blabber mouth with absolutely nothing but the same old regurgitated repetitive crap. I bet you think the shit you post here is pretty original. Ha ha ha.

 

[Roudy]

Israeli Researcher Challenges Jewish DNA links to Israel, Calls Those Who Disagree 'Nazi Sympathizers' - Forbes

Here's an analysis of the situation which I think is worth reading. It appears that this is simply one more propaganda effort by the Israel-haters.

Hey, thanks, that is an interesting article and it links to more interesting articles.

I don't think Dr. Ariella Oppenheim, who did the studies I was referring to is of this ilk, however. She was apparently tracing the so called "cohanim haplotype" through Palestinian population and argues that Palestinians descended from ancient Jews.

She has also demonstrated that the haplotypes of modern European Jews are about 72% descend from ancient Jews. I haven't read everything on this list yet by a long shot, but apparently the Khazars and other blood lines and in there, too, but not in significant amounts. So Arthur Koestler's The Thirteenth Tribe thesis is effectively debunked.

I'll let the Palestinians know to drop it!

Really I am loving these articles. I hope this type of research FINALLY and unequivocally puts all racism out to the backwater of history for all time.

We already told you dipstick, other Arabs and people's in the region have more of the same "similarities" than do Palestinians. Perhaps it's from all the invasions, massacres, ethnic cleansing, and forced conversions Arabs conducted all over the region.

 

[Phoenall]

Shlomo Sand is a professor of history at Tel Aviv University who doesn’t mind going out on a limb.
He is best known for his very controversial book,
The Invention of the Jewish People: Shlomo Sand, Yael Lotan: 9781844676231: Amazon.com: Books The Invention of the Jewish People, originally published in Hebrew in 2008.
Here he addresses some of the …. er …..logic of Jewish history. (I don’t know how this fits in with Dr. Oppenheim’s genetic studies)

For those who like soundbytes, here is a 10 minute version:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cq6EPYLfcM0

and a longer version:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EmvANgw9Mk


Dr. Sand has recently (2013) iced the cake with a sequel that promises stir up at least as much excitement,
The Invention of the Land of Israel: From Holy Land to Homeland: Shlomo Sand, Geremy Forman: 9781844679461: Amazon.com: Books The Invention of the Land of Israel:

Sound byte version 13 minute version (begins at minute 13):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NR-dDwwXx2E

Longer version (Dr. Sand’s talk begins around minute 15):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5s_trEBcbU

The upshot of his work very nearly parallels arguments often heard about the Palestinians - that they were not a people.
Dr. Sand argues that Jews were not a people.

More of your ISLAMONAZI PROPAGANDA AND LIES.

 

[Phoenall]

No, it was not a wasteland. That is just Zionist mythology. We have pictures! See the Palestine without Zionism thread.
the Palestinians are the indigenous people, descended from the ancient Jews.

How could it have been a Zionist myth when Zionists were not even around when that was first said. Yes the pre 1960 Palestinians because they were the Jews, the modern Palestinians were still in Egypt, Syria, Saudi and Iran.

 

[Phoenall]

As soon as Israel turned the wasteland into a thriving metropolis, here come hoards of Palestinians to claim --- it's their land. Ya gotta love 'em for their great sense of humor. Heh Heh!

That is not true. There is loads of documentary and photographic evidence of Palestine without Zionism.

Aren't the Amity girls so full of fun, pulling up the same old articles which the viewers have seen many, many times before. Do you ever think these gals would ever pull up any rebuttal to their articles. Meanwhile, you will notice how hard they are trying to get their Muslim brethren into Israel so that they can take over the governance of that country. See, isn't there some monument in Egypt showing the Jews carrying away the gold from Egypt during the Exodus, and some Egyptian fellow is now suing them to get it back. You have to remember that the Russians told Arafat to calls these Arabs by the name of Palestinians and make up a country for them that never was.. I can just picture the laughs at our State Department when they heard about it and said to each other "So this is the way you create a people and a country?" You might have caught the retired State Department employees who posted the following several years back....

Sure there was a Palestine. It was invented in the 1960s in a conference room at 1 Lubyanka, Dzershinsky Place, Red Square, Moscow, CCCP. It came complete with a "Palestinian people" too. In fact, its legacy leader was trained east of Moscow at the legendary Balashikha special-ops school.

Let's have some substantive comment, this is silly and shames you.

So then did the muslims invent a camera before anyone else and took pictures of the land of Palestine in the early 1800's when it was a desolate wasteland.

It is substantive comment that can be proven by doing a simple search of the subject, start of by asking what the term Palestinian meant to an arab muslim prior to 1960.

 

[amity1844]

Zionist immigration did not start to gain momentum until after world war 1. Before that the country was pretty much entirely unmarked. And there wasn't much change until the 1930s and beyond, depending on the area.

 

[Sally]

Zionist immigration did not start to gain momentum until after world war 1. Before that the country was pretty much entirely unmarked. And there wasn't much change until the 1930s and beyond, depending on the area.

But those Zionists are the ones who made the jobs available for the Arabs who came from their impovershed countries, just like we see poor people today immigrating to the Western world for jobs.

 

[Roudy]

Zionist immigration did not start to gain momentum until after world war 1. Before that the country was pretty much entirely unmarked. And there wasn't much change until the 1930s and beyond, depending on the area.

Make up your mind bigot. In another thread you started your article clearly explains how the land of Israel has a Jewish history and culture.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/showthread.php?p=9333498#post9331156

"Faisal's paternal line was Hashemite," he says, "meaning he was directly descended from Muhammad. But the mother of his maternal grandfather, King On, was descended from a family of forced Jewish converts to Islam that immigrated to the east bank of the Jordan, later returning to one of the villages west of the Jordan."

"Among such names are Kafr Yasif, Kafr Kana, Kafr Yatta, Kafr Manda, Kafr Samia, and many others," says Misinai. Indeed, Ben-Zvi in his 1932 book The Peoples of Our Land wrote that west of the Jordan River, 277 villages and sites - nearly two-thirds! - had names that were similar to or the same as the Jewish settlements on the same sites during Second Temple times."

"The Jews who went into exile held onto their culture, beliefs and religion, while those that remained behind held as long as they could to the Land of Israel. Both loves - love of Torah and love of land - come from the same wellsprings. It's time to repair the historic damage done by our enemies, the Romans, and reunite our people."

 

[irosie91]

Zionist immigration did not start to gain momentum until after world war 1. Before that the country was pretty much entirely unmarked. And there wasn't much change until the 1930s and beyond, depending on the area.

Could you explain what you mean by "before that the country was pretty much unmarked"? ---
to what country do you refer and what means "unmarked"???

 

[aris2chat]

Zionist immigration did not start to gain momentum until after world war 1. Before that the country was pretty much entirely unmarked. And there wasn't much change until the 1930s and beyond, depending on the area.

But those Zionists are the ones who made the jobs available for the Arabs who came from their impoverished countries, just like we see poor people today immigrating to the Western world for jobs.

Palestinians need the jobs and should be grateful for companies that want to invest in the WB.

 

[irosie91]

re shlomo sand big deal any country, any ethnic group, any nation
can be dissected in order to produce a work named

"the invention of the ________people" depending the
political climate----sometimes such dissections SELL'

Long ago (like decades ago) I read a book devoted to --
in sum and substance "the myth of the American Revolutionary
War" An interesting perspective----it turns out that
the whole thing was just a bunch of barbaric animals
at each others throats over land and water and who owns
that cow or that apple tree------and when the king sent
soldiers over to quell the riots in the "colonies"----the barbaric
colony boys killed them too.

 

[Challenger]

re shlomo sand big deal any country, any ethnic group, any nation
can be dissected in order to produce a work named

"the invention of the ________people" ...

I agree, most of the modern nation states of Europe didn't exist until the 18th and early 19th centuries. Nationalism and the idea of a "nation" is a modern concept. Sand explains this quite well in his book(s). "Israel" and "Israelis" were invented in 1948.

 

[irosie91]

re shlomo sand big deal any country, any ethnic group, any nation
can be dissected in order to produce a work named

"the invention of the ________people" ...

I agree, most of the modern nation states of Europe didn't exist until the 18th and early 19th centuries. Nationalism and the idea of a "nation" is a modern concept. Sand explains this quite well in his book(s). "Israel" and "Israelis" were invented in 1948.

Sand makes a trite point and explains it well-------ok I can agree with that
statement -----in fact Well Said, Challenger, sorta. Nationalism is not
really a "modern concept" however. The Romans of 2000 years ago were
INTENSELY nationalistic-----in fact so were the EARLIER greeks. Platp was a bit
of a FANATIC greek. In sum----sand wrote a book----he needed a jump off
point----upon which to elaborate.

 

[Phoenall]

re shlomo sand big deal any country, any ethnic group, any nation
can be dissected in order to produce a work named

"the invention of the ________people" ...

I agree, most of the modern nation states of Europe didn't exist until the 18th and early 19th centuries. Nationalism and the idea of a "nation" is a modern concept. Sand explains this quite well in his book(s). "Israel" and "Israelis" were invented in 1948.

While Palestine and Palestinians was invented by Arafat in 1964, before this time the terms were profanities describing the Jews.

 

[Phoenall]

re shlomo sand big deal any country, any ethnic group, any nation
can be dissected in order to produce a work named

"the invention of the ________people" ...

I agree, most of the modern nation states of Europe didn't exist until the 18th and early 19th centuries. Nationalism and the idea of a "nation" is a modern concept. Sand explains this quite well in his book(s). "Israel" and "Israelis" were invented in 1948.

Sand makes a trite point and explains it well-------ok I can agree with that
statement -----in fact Well Said, Challenger, sorta. Nationalism is not
really a "modern concept" however. The Romans of 2000 years ago were
INTENSELY nationalistic-----in fact so were the EARLIER greeks. Platp was a bit
of a FANATIC greek. In sum----sand wrote a book----he needed a jump off
point----upon which to elaborate.

Just as the English have shown a nationalistic side since 1066

 

[Billo_Really]

Oh thank you so much for this fascinating article. What a difference this will make to everybody's own thinking. Heh Heh!

Shut up, you sarcastic piece of shit!

Sands called your bluff!

 

[amity1844]

re shlomo sand big deal any country, any ethnic group, any nation
can be dissected in order to produce a work named

"the invention of the ________people" ...

I agree, most of the modern nation states of Europe didn't exist until the 18th and early 19th centuries. Nationalism and the idea of a "nation" is a modern concept. Sand explains this quite well in his book(s). "Israel" and "Israelis" were invented in 1948.

You are VERY right about nationalism, but i would date to as early as the 16th century in certain respects. It is a renaissance idea.

The Palestinian version goes back to 1848 when they had a revolt.

Rashid Khalidi published a book called The Palestinian Identity that has lots of quotes and primary sources.

 

[amity1844]

Ha ha ha, you are a joke. Mark Twain wasn't a colonialist moron. Neither were the historians writers and archeologists in those quotes.

Slapped again with the truth, huh?

Hey, look, I love Mark Twain, detest those who want to censor his work (why deny who we were?) but honestly as far as international affairs go, he was definitely a product of his time.

But you called him and other historians and archeologists who traveled and documented what they saw, "colonialists". Which means when you are fighting a false cause (as you are), with lies and false propaganda, you naturally have difficultly handling the truth. You're just a blabber mouth with absolutely nothing but the same old regurgitated repetitive crap. I bet you think the shit you post here is pretty original. Ha ha ha.

We gave you the correct quotes. Turns out you left out about 3/4 of the Mark Twain description of Palestine. The part where he talks about how LUSH and DENSELY POPULATED it is, wit rich black soul and practically every tillable inch under cultivation.

Now why would you leave that part out?

 

[Sally]

Hey, look, I love Mark Twain, detest those who want to censor his work (why deny who we were?) but honestly as far as international affairs go, he was definitely a product of his time.

But you called him and other historians and archeologists who traveled and documented what they saw, "colonialists". Which means when you are fighting a false cause (as you are), with lies and false propaganda, you naturally have difficultly handling the truth. You're just a blabber mouth with absolutely nothing but the same old regurgitated repetitive crap. I bet you think the shit you post here is pretty original. Ha ha ha.

We gave you the correct quotes. Turns out you left out about 3/4 of the Mark Twain description of Palestine. The part where he talks about how LUSH and DENSELY POPULATED it is, wit rich black soul and practically every tillable inch under cultivation.

Now why would you leave that part out?

Mark Twain was a journalist with a discerning eye before he became a fiction writer. He and others who traveled through the area earlier on certainly had eyes to see, and they really didn't see all these Arabs around that you want the viewers to think there were.