Should God's Law be the Law of the Land?

[peach174]

While the Constitution does not explicitly refer to God, the concepts of law which it contains stem from the cultural assumptions of basic biblical truths widely held by the people of that time regardless of their actual piety towards God. In other words, it is an inarguable fact that not all Americans of that era actually held to the Christian faith, yet they held to the commonly accepted morals, ethics and standards of behavior derived from English Common Law, which drew from biblical law given to the Hebrews by God.

Underlying Biblical Principles
The rule of law laid out in the Constitution descends from the Ten Commandments. As they suffered at the hands of corrupt human authorities, the Constitutional delegates were aware of the flawed nature of human beings as shown in Genesis 3 and Jeremiah 17:9. Thus, they designed a system of checks and balances and separation of powers to prevent one individual or group from abusing the citizens through self-serving power ploys.

The three branches of government are reminiscent of the roles of God as described in Isaiah 33:22. The exception for Sundays in the time limit for the president to sign a bill into law in Article VII, Section 2 hints at the assumption that Sunday was a day of rest as set forth in Exodus 20.

Exodus 18 reveals that before Israel demanded that God give them a king, the Hebrews had a representative form of republican government, not unlike the system created in the Constitution.

Both Leviticus 19:34 and Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution require uniform treatment of immigrants. Deuteronomy 17:15 warns the Hebrews not to let a foreigner rule over them just as the Constitution requires the president to be a natural born citizen of the U.S.

The requirement in Article III Section 3 to establish guilt in cases of treason by the testimony of at least two witnesses recalls the biblical instruction in Deuteronomy 17:6 to have the testimony of two or three witnesses before putting a man to death

 

[JakeStarkey]

"And they knew that only a mostly religious and moral people would make that government work. We are incapable of the intelligence to override God's law without consequence"

...and this, Foxfyre, is why you encounter so many athiests who "hate" christianity. You folks seem to think that you have some kind of franchise on morality, which, of course, means that those of us who do not believe as you do are not moral. It is statements like that that make our skin crawl. It also creates devisiveness and anger. I have, in my life, seen just as much immorality within the Christain world as I have seen out of the Christain world. And, if one starts looking carefully at televangelists, one can understandably come to the conclusion that there is more immorality in the Christain world.

Most Christians believe in the command to witness to the world the lordship of Jesus Christ, Vandalshandle, so, yes, indeed, most Christians do believe their beliefs outweigh legal and social obligations to leave the neighbors alone if that is what they want.

Ironically, if God exists, no one, not you or me or Foxfyre, can "ban" God from the public classroom. You go tell God s/he can't come to school today. In fact, anyone can pray on public property at anytime. That person simply cannot disrupt the public business and infringe on his neighbor.

This argument is much ado about nothing.

 

[varelse]

Many who believe in the absolute truth of the Christian faith seem to believe that God's Laws should be the law or basis of the law in the US.

What think you?

Yes, your daughter needs to marry that guy who raped her in the alley and we need to start killing all the unbelievers...


Oddly, they never want to accept their god's rules on mandatory abortion in the case of adultery

It is my opinion that God's law IS the law of the land, and we break it at our peril.

So we need to stop all the anti-abortion stuff?

The FF, btw, were mostly deists


We should base all our laws on the NT- do whatever you want, rape whomever you wish, kill and rob all you desire. If caught, you must publicly renounce your crime, promise to do it no more, and walk away free. Prison on for those who refuse to do this.



What's with Jake and the infidel thing?

Name them. You won't, because you can't. You have no idea what you're spouting.

Th biggest is Chalcedon Foundation, but there are others. Wallbuilders is less explicit but they also want Christian dominance.

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/The-Family-Secret-Fundamentalism-American/dp/0060560053]Amazon.com: The Family: The Secret Fundamentalism at the Heart of American Power (9780060560058): Jeff Sharlet: Books[/ame]

 

[peach174]

You stated emphatically that God is not mentioned in the Constitution.



I showed you that it is. Now, if you don't want to be shown to be an idiot don't post like one.

Also the 'blessings of liberty' in the Preamble were a compromise to avoid giving any religious authority license to use the Constitution to impose religious doctrine on anybody as well as protect religion from any coercion by the federal government. But it clearly referred to the wording of the Declaration of Independence that they, to a man, saw as the justification and purpose of the U.S. Constitution:

When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed

Further, almost all preambles to state constitutions begin with gratitude expressed to God for their liberties, and the very few who word it some other way manage to work that into to the body of the Constitution.

We cannot exclude that reverence for God and that understanding of rights given by God as being the core foundation of what this country was intended to be. And any who would take that understanding of God out of the equation are those who pave the way for us to return to bondage under government authority that will assign us the rights that we may have and can just as easily take them away.

It is my belief that God is still in his heaven and the supreme law of the land whether or not the people believe that or understand that or appreciate that. And we ignore it at our peril.

Still no mention of the Christian god.


"And any who would take that understanding of God out of the equation are those who pave the way for us to return to bondage under government authority that will assign us the rights that we may have and can just as easily take them away".

You're hoping to re-write and re-define the clear intent of the FF's. They knew that religions propagate and they knew that once in control, religious tenets are biased towards themselves and poorly disposed towards competitive belief systems. We don't have to assume their intent -- even if they were Christians (and some of 'em were), the intent is clear: the state is precluded from dictating any and all religious conscience to any free people. Hence, the First Amendment.

Dictating any or all religions?
The first amendment says establishment of religion.
It means that no state can favor one religion over another, like they did in Europe.

Our Founders wanted to make sure that government could never again interfere with or oppress religious freedoms or establish one Christian denomination over another as the religion of state to the detriment of all others.

 

[Sunshine]

You stated emphatically that God is not mentioned in the Constitution.



I showed you that it is. Now, if you don't want to be shown to be an idiot don't post like one.

Also the 'blessings of liberty' in the Preamble were a compromise to avoid giving any religious authority license to use the Constitution to impose religious doctrine on anybody as well as protect religion from any coercion by the federal government. But it clearly referred to the wording of the Declaration of Independence that they, to a man, saw as the justification and purpose of the U.S. Constitution:

When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed

Further, almost all preambles to state constitutions begin with gratitude expressed to God for their liberties, and the very few who word it some other way manage to work that into to the body of the Constitution.

We cannot exclude that reverence for God and that understanding of rights given by God as being the core foundation of what this country was intended to be. And any who would take that understanding of God out of the equation are those who pave the way for us to return to bondage under government authority that will assign us the rights that we may have and can just as easily take them away.

It is my belief that God is still in his heaven and the supreme law of the land whether or not the people believe that or understand that or appreciate that. And we ignore it at our peril.

Still no mention of the Christian god.


"And any who would take that understanding of God out of the equation are those who pave the way for us to return to bondage under government authority that will assign us the rights that we may have and can just as easily take them away".

You're hoping to re-write and re-define the clear intent of the FF's. They knew that religions propagate and they knew that once in control, religious tenets are biased towards themselves and poorly disposed towards competitive belief systems. We don't have to assume their intent -- even if they were Christians (and some of 'em were), the intent is clear: the state is precluded from dictating any and all religious conscience to any free people. Hence, the First Amendment.

Actually AD (Anno Domini ) means 'in the year of our Lord' and it is spelled out in the Constitution. It is referring to Jesus.

Anno Domini - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Damn you are one slow bitch.

 

[Sunshine]

Also the 'blessings of liberty' in the Preamble were a compromise to avoid giving any religious authority license to use the Constitution to impose religious doctrine on anybody as well as protect religion from any coercion by the federal government. But it clearly referred to the wording of the Declaration of Independence that they, to a man, saw as the justification and purpose of the U.S. Constitution:



Further, almost all preambles to state constitutions begin with gratitude expressed to God for their liberties, and the very few who word it some other way manage to work that into to the body of the Constitution.

We cannot exclude that reverence for God and that understanding of rights given by God as being the core foundation of what this country was intended to be. And any who would take that understanding of God out of the equation are those who pave the way for us to return to bondage under government authority that will assign us the rights that we may have and can just as easily take them away.

It is my belief that God is still in his heaven and the supreme law of the land whether or not the people believe that or understand that or appreciate that. And we ignore it at our peril.

Still no mention of the Christian god.


"And any who would take that understanding of God out of the equation are those who pave the way for us to return to bondage under government authority that will assign us the rights that we may have and can just as easily take them away".

You're hoping to re-write and re-define the clear intent of the FF's. They knew that religions propagate and they knew that once in control, religious tenets are biased towards themselves and poorly disposed towards competitive belief systems. We don't have to assume their intent -- even if they were Christians (and some of 'em were), the intent is clear: the state is precluded from dictating any and all religious conscience to any free people. Hence, the First Amendment.

Dictating any or all religions?
The first amendment says establishment of religion.
It means that no state can favor one religion over another, like they did in Europe.

Our Founders wanted to make sure that government could never again interfere with or oppress religious freedoms or establish one Christian denomination over another as the religion of state to the detriment of all others.

But Atheists want any and ALL mention of God removed from our society.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Infidel - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

one who is not a Christian or who opposes Christianity. 2. a : an unbeliever with respect to a particular religion. b : one who acknowledges no religious belief.

 

[varelse]

Our Founders wanted to make sure that government could never again interfere with or oppress religious freedoms or establish one Christian denomination over another as the religion of state to the detriment of all others.

Wrong. They wanted only to ensure the federal government didn't. The several states did exactly that since they were colonies, and the FF wanted to ensure each state could continue to do so without interference from each other.

 

[pinqy]

Further, almost all preambles to state constitutions begin with gratitude expressed to God for their liberties, and the very few who word it some other way manage to work that into to the body of the Constitution.

Well, it's not quite as prevalent as you claim, but the main point is that such references are specifically not in the Federal Constitution.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Our Founders wanted to make sure that government could never again interfere with or oppress religious freedoms or establish one Christian denomination over another as the religion of state to the detriment of all others.

Wrong. They wanted only to ensure the federal government didn't. The several states did exactly that since they were colonies, and the FF wanted to ensure each state could continue to do so without interference from each other.

Yup, and the states who had established religions eventually got rid of them. The incorporation of the 1st Amendment by SCOTUS under the due process clause of the 14th Amendment now makes it a federal matter. No state can violate the 1st Amendment.

 

[Foxfyre]

You stated emphatically that God is not mentioned in the Constitution.



I showed you that it is. Now, if you don't want to be shown to be an idiot don't post like one.

Also the 'blessings of liberty' in the Preamble were a compromise to avoid giving any religious authority license to use the Constitution to impose religious doctrine on anybody as well as protect religion from any coercion by the federal government. But it clearly referred to the wording of the Declaration of Independence that they, to a man, saw as the justification and purpose of the U.S. Constitution:

When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed

Further, almost all preambles to state constitutions begin with gratitude expressed to God for their liberties, and the very few who word it some other way manage to work that into to the body of the Constitution.

We cannot exclude that reverence for God and that understanding of rights given by God as being the core foundation of what this country was intended to be. And any who would take that understanding of God out of the equation are those who pave the way for us to return to bondage under government authority that will assign us the rights that we may have and can just as easily take them away.

It is my belief that God is still in his heaven and the supreme law of the land whether or not the people believe that or understand that or appreciate that. And we ignore it at our peril.

Still no mention of the Christian god.


"And any who would take that understanding of God out of the equation are those who pave the way for us to return to bondage under government authority that will assign us the rights that we may have and can just as easily take them away".

You're hoping to re-write and re-define the clear intent of the FF's. They knew that religions propagate and they knew that once in control, religious tenets are biased towards themselves and poorly disposed towards competitive belief systems. We don't have to assume their intent -- even if they were Christians (and some of 'em were), the intent is clear: the state is precluded from dictating any and all religious conscience to any free people. Hence, the First Amendment.

Yes, the Founders intended that the people be governed by no pope and no monarch, hence the First Amendment that was to ensure the right of the people to govern themselves in matters of religion. Almost all of them were Christians however.

George Washington: "While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian."
--The Writings of Washington, pp. 342-343.

John Adams: "Now I will avow, that I then believe, and now believe, that those general Principles of Christianity, are as eternal and immutable, as the Existence and Attributes of God; and that those Principles of Liberty, are as unalterable as human Nature and our terrestrial, mundane System."
--Adams wrote this on June 28, 1813, excerpt from a letter to Thomas Jefferson.

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
.--Adams to the officers of the 1st brigade of the 3rd division of he militian of Massachusetts, 11 October, 1798

"The second day of July, 1776, will be the most memorable epoch in the history of America. I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary Festival. It ought to be commemorated, as the Day of Deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires and illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other, from this time forward forever."
--Adams wrote this in a letter to his wife, Abigail, on July 3, 1776.

Thomas Jefferson: "God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever; That a revolution of the wheel of fortune, a change of situation, is among possible events; that it may become probable by Supernatural influence! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in that event."
--Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, p. 237.

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."
--The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.

John Hancock: "Resistance to tyranny becomes the Christian and social duty of each individual. ... Continue steadfast and, with a proper sense of your dependence on God, nobly defend those rights which heaven gave, and no man ought to take from us."
--History of the United States of America, Vol. II, p. 229.

Benjamin Franklin, who acknowledged some doubts but embraced the concepts of Chrsitianity: "Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped.

"That the most acceptable service we render to him is in doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.

"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, is the best the world ever saw, or is likely to see;

"But I apprehend it has received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble. I see no harm, however, in its being believed, if that belief has the good consequence, as probably it has, of making his doctrines more respected and more observed; especially as I do not perceive, that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the unbelievers in his government of the world with any peculiar marks of his displeasure."
--Benjamin Franklin wrote this in a letter to Ezra Stiles, President of Yale University on March 9, 1790.

Samuel Adams: "And as it is our duty to extend our wishes to the happiness of the great family of man, I conceive that we cannot better express ourselves than by humbly supplicating the Supreme Ruler of the world that the rod of tyrants may be broken to pieces, and the oppressed made free again; that wars may cease in all the earth, and that the confusions that are and have been among nations may be overruled by promoting and speedily bringing on that holy and happy period when the kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ may be everywhere established, and all people everywhere willingly bow to the sceptre of Him who is Prince of Peace."
--As Governor of Massachusetts, Proclamation of a Day of Fast, March 20, 1797.

James Madison: "A watchful eye must be kept on ourselves lest while we are building ideal monuments of Renown and Bliss here we neglect to have our names enrolled in the Annals of Heaven."
--Written to William Bradford on November 9, 1772, Faith of Our Founding Fathers by Tim LaHaye, pp. 130-131; Christianity and the Constitution — The Faith of Our Founding Fathers by John Eidsmoe, p. 98.

James Monroe: "When we view the blessings with which our country has been favored, those which we now enjoy, and the means which we possess of handing them down unimpaired to our latest posterity, our attention is irresistibly drawn to the source from whence they flow. Let us then, unite in offering our most grateful acknowledgments for these blessings to the Divine Author of All Good."
--Monroe made this statement in his 2nd Annual Message to Congress, November 16, 1818.

John Quincy Adams: "The hope of a Christian is inseparable from his faith. Whoever believes in the divine inspiration of the Holy Scriptures must hope that the religion of Jesus shall prevail throughout the earth. Never since the foundation of the world have the prospects of mankind been more encouraging to that hope than they appear to be at the present time. And may the associated distribution of the Bible proceed and prosper till the Lord shall have made 'bare His holy arm in the eyes of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God' (Isaiah 52:10)."
--Life of John Quincy Adams, p. 248

Benjamin Rush: "The gospel of Jesus Christ prescribes the wisest rules for just conduct in every situation of life. Happy they who are enabled to obey them in all situations!"
--The Autobiography of Benjamin Rush, pp. 165-166

Alexander Hamilton: "I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man."
--Famous American Statesmen, p. 126.

Patrick Henry: "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here."
--The Trumpet Voice of Freedom: Patrick Henry of Virginia, p. iii

I can go on and on and on with verifiable evidence of the faith of those men who forged this great country. The Atheists do their damndest to make them unbelieving "Deists", but they weren't. Which is why they held full blown worship services in the very halls of Congress believing that to be good and worthy so long as attendance was completely voluntary.

And it was those men who gave us a freedom of religion such as the world had never seen, and who gave us the most free, most prosperous, most productive, most innovative, most creative, most benevolent nation the world had ever seen.

I think it is wise to consider that if they believed in God's law being the supreme law of the land, that we should at least consider that.

 

[varelse]

Why do people care about the FF? Are we North Korea now, to be ruled over by dead demigods whose opinions or whims are to be held as divine law?

The FF also has slaves, and several of them had children with slave women, refusing to free the woman or the child. They also grew hemp and carried out ethnic cleansing against the natives. A number were Freemasons and quite anti-church and several were known to belong to the Hellfire club. They never knew television would exist and they settled personal disagreements by shooting pistols at eachother. More than one of these things is now illegal.

Do we believe in self-governemnt, or government of the living by the long-dead? Washington and Jefferson are neither gods nor prophets and their laws were and are merely the opinions and solutions of men- White landed gentry from 200+ years ago, specifically

 

[CMike]

Many who believe in the absolute truth of the Christian faith seem to believe that God's Laws should be the law or basis of the law in the US.

What think you?

Whose religion?

 

[CMike]

Also the 'blessings of liberty' in the Preamble were a compromise to avoid giving any religious authority license to use the Constitution to impose religious doctrine on anybody as well as protect religion from any coercion by the federal government. But it clearly referred to the wording of the Declaration of Independence that they, to a man, saw as the justification and purpose of the U.S. Constitution:



Further, almost all preambles to state constitutions begin with gratitude expressed to God for their liberties, and the very few who word it some other way manage to work that into to the body of the Constitution.

We cannot exclude that reverence for God and that understanding of rights given by God as being the core foundation of what this country was intended to be. And any who would take that understanding of God out of the equation are those who pave the way for us to return to bondage under government authority that will assign us the rights that we may have and can just as easily take them away.

It is my belief that God is still in his heaven and the supreme law of the land whether or not the people believe that or understand that or appreciate that. And we ignore it at our peril.

Still no mention of the Christian god.


"And any who would take that understanding of God out of the equation are those who pave the way for us to return to bondage under government authority that will assign us the rights that we may have and can just as easily take them away".

You're hoping to re-write and re-define the clear intent of the FF's. They knew that religions propagate and they knew that once in control, religious tenets are biased towards themselves and poorly disposed towards competitive belief systems. We don't have to assume their intent -- even if they were Christians (and some of 'em were), the intent is clear: the state is precluded from dictating any and all religious conscience to any free people. Hence, the First Amendment.

Yes, the Founders intended that the people be governed by no pope and no monarch, hence the First Amendment that was to ensure the right of the people to govern themselves in matters of religion. Almost all of them were Christians however.

George Washington: "While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian."
--The Writings of Washington, pp. 342-343.

John Adams: "Now I will avow, that I then believe, and now believe, that those general Principles of Christianity, are as eternal and immutable, as the Existence and Attributes of God; and that those Principles of Liberty, are as unalterable as human Nature and our terrestrial, mundane System."
--Adams wrote this on June 28, 1813, excerpt from a letter to Thomas Jefferson.

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
.--Adams to the officers of the 1st brigade of the 3rd division of he militian of Massachusetts, 11 October, 1798

"The second day of July, 1776, will be the most memorable epoch in the history of America. I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary Festival. It ought to be commemorated, as the Day of Deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires and illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other, from this time forward forever."
--Adams wrote this in a letter to his wife, Abigail, on July 3, 1776.

Thomas Jefferson: "God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever; That a revolution of the wheel of fortune, a change of situation, is among possible events; that it may become probable by Supernatural influence! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in that event."
--Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, p. 237.

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."
--The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.

John Hancock: "Resistance to tyranny becomes the Christian and social duty of each individual. ... Continue steadfast and, with a proper sense of your dependence on God, nobly defend those rights which heaven gave, and no man ought to take from us."
--History of the United States of America, Vol. II, p. 229.

Benjamin Franklin, who acknowledged some doubts but embraced the concepts of Chrsitianity: "Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped.

"That the most acceptable service we render to him is in doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.

"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, is the best the world ever saw, or is likely to see;

"But I apprehend it has received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble. I see no harm, however, in its being believed, if that belief has the good consequence, as probably it has, of making his doctrines more respected and more observed; especially as I do not perceive, that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the unbelievers in his government of the world with any peculiar marks of his displeasure."
--Benjamin Franklin wrote this in a letter to Ezra Stiles, President of Yale University on March 9, 1790.

Samuel Adams: "And as it is our duty to extend our wishes to the happiness of the great family of man, I conceive that we cannot better express ourselves than by humbly supplicating the Supreme Ruler of the world that the rod of tyrants may be broken to pieces, and the oppressed made free again; that wars may cease in all the earth, and that the confusions that are and have been among nations may be overruled by promoting and speedily bringing on that holy and happy period when the kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ may be everywhere established, and all people everywhere willingly bow to the sceptre of Him who is Prince of Peace."
--As Governor of Massachusetts, Proclamation of a Day of Fast, March 20, 1797.

James Madison: "A watchful eye must be kept on ourselves lest while we are building ideal monuments of Renown and Bliss here we neglect to have our names enrolled in the Annals of Heaven."
--Written to William Bradford on November 9, 1772, Faith of Our Founding Fathers by Tim LaHaye, pp. 130-131; Christianity and the Constitution — The Faith of Our Founding Fathers by John Eidsmoe, p. 98.

James Monroe: "When we view the blessings with which our country has been favored, those which we now enjoy, and the means which we possess of handing them down unimpaired to our latest posterity, our attention is irresistibly drawn to the source from whence they flow. Let us then, unite in offering our most grateful acknowledgments for these blessings to the Divine Author of All Good."
--Monroe made this statement in his 2nd Annual Message to Congress, November 16, 1818.

John Quincy Adams: "The hope of a Christian is inseparable from his faith. Whoever believes in the divine inspiration of the Holy Scriptures must hope that the religion of Jesus shall prevail throughout the earth. Never since the foundation of the world have the prospects of mankind been more encouraging to that hope than they appear to be at the present time. And may the associated distribution of the Bible proceed and prosper till the Lord shall have made 'bare His holy arm in the eyes of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God' (Isaiah 52:10)."
--Life of John Quincy Adams, p. 248

Benjamin Rush: "The gospel of Jesus Christ prescribes the wisest rules for just conduct in every situation of life. Happy they who are enabled to obey them in all situations!"
--The Autobiography of Benjamin Rush, pp. 165-166

Alexander Hamilton: "I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man."
--Famous American Statesmen, p. 126.

Patrick Henry: "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here."
--The Trumpet Voice of Freedom: Patrick Henry of Virginia, p. iii

I can go on and on and on with verifiable evidence of the faith of those men who forged this great country. The Atheists do their damndest to make them unbelieving "Deists", but they weren't. Which is why they held full blown worship services in the very halls of Congress believing that to be good and worthy so long as attendance was completely voluntary.

And it was those men who gave us a freedom of religion such as the world had never seen, and who gave us the most free, most prosperous, most productive, most innovative, most creative, most benevolent nation the world had ever seen.

I think it is wise to consider that if they believed in God's law being the supreme law of the land, that we should at least consider that.

Yet, not one word of Christianity in any of the founding documents?

Why is that?

 

[peach174]

Our Founders wanted to make sure that government could never again interfere with or oppress religious freedoms or establish one Christian denomination over another as the religion of state to the detriment of all others.

Wrong. They wanted only to ensure the federal government didn't. The several states did exactly that since they were colonies, and the FF wanted to ensure each state could continue to do so without interference from each other.

No.

There never has been a 'state religion' in the united states.

Just because a majority of Americans belong to one denomination doesn't make it official.

 

[Foxfyre]

Why do people care about the FF? Are we North Korea now, to be ruled over by dead demigods whose opinions or whims are to be held as divine law?

The FF also has slaves, and several of them had children with slave women, refusing to free the woman or the child. They also grew hemp and carried out ethnic cleansing against the natives. A number were Freemasons and quite anti-church and several were known to belong to the Hellfire club. They never knew television would exist and they settled personal disagreements by shooting pistols at eachother. More than one of these things is now illegal.

Do we believe in self-governemnt, or government of the living by the long-dead? Washington and Jefferson are neither gods nor prophets and their laws were and are merely the opinions and solutions of men- White landed gentry from 200+ years ago, specifically

We care about them because they gave us the greatest, most free nation the world has ever known. A nation in which the people were intended to govern themselves. A nation in which those very slaves, once the very same nation who had purchased them from slave traders then set them free have prospered far beyond what their ancestors in Africa have been able to prosper. That is no commendation for slavery or any justification for it--all Americans now condemn and abhore the thought of slavery. But the fact that the descendants of those ex slaves have so prospered is a testament to the outcome of a free people who evolve as only a free people can.

The Founders weren't saints any more than we are. They got some things wrong just as we do. But they also knew a free people would have the ability to work it out and make it better and get it right. People under bondage do not.

 

[Foxfyre]

Still no mention of the Christian god.


"And any who would take that understanding of God out of the equation are those who pave the way for us to return to bondage under government authority that will assign us the rights that we may have and can just as easily take them away".

You're hoping to re-write and re-define the clear intent of the FF's. They knew that religions propagate and they knew that once in control, religious tenets are biased towards themselves and poorly disposed towards competitive belief systems. We don't have to assume their intent -- even if they were Christians (and some of 'em were), the intent is clear: the state is precluded from dictating any and all religious conscience to any free people. Hence, the First Amendment.

Yes, the Founders intended that the people be governed by no pope and no monarch, hence the First Amendment that was to ensure the right of the people to govern themselves in matters of religion. Almost all of them were Christians however.

George Washington: "While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian."
--The Writings of Washington, pp. 342-343.

John Adams: "Now I will avow, that I then believe, and now believe, that those general Principles of Christianity, are as eternal and immutable, as the Existence and Attributes of God; and that those Principles of Liberty, are as unalterable as human Nature and our terrestrial, mundane System."
--Adams wrote this on June 28, 1813, excerpt from a letter to Thomas Jefferson.

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
.--Adams to the officers of the 1st brigade of the 3rd division of he militian of Massachusetts, 11 October, 1798

"The second day of July, 1776, will be the most memorable epoch in the history of America. I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary Festival. It ought to be commemorated, as the Day of Deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires and illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other, from this time forward forever."
--Adams wrote this in a letter to his wife, Abigail, on July 3, 1776.

Thomas Jefferson: "God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever; That a revolution of the wheel of fortune, a change of situation, is among possible events; that it may become probable by Supernatural influence! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in that event."
--Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, p. 237.

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."
--The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.

John Hancock: "Resistance to tyranny becomes the Christian and social duty of each individual. ... Continue steadfast and, with a proper sense of your dependence on God, nobly defend those rights which heaven gave, and no man ought to take from us."
--History of the United States of America, Vol. II, p. 229.

Benjamin Franklin, who acknowledged some doubts but embraced the concepts of Chrsitianity: "Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped.

"That the most acceptable service we render to him is in doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.

"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, is the best the world ever saw, or is likely to see;

"But I apprehend it has received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble. I see no harm, however, in its being believed, if that belief has the good consequence, as probably it has, of making his doctrines more respected and more observed; especially as I do not perceive, that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the unbelievers in his government of the world with any peculiar marks of his displeasure."
--Benjamin Franklin wrote this in a letter to Ezra Stiles, President of Yale University on March 9, 1790.

Samuel Adams: "And as it is our duty to extend our wishes to the happiness of the great family of man, I conceive that we cannot better express ourselves than by humbly supplicating the Supreme Ruler of the world that the rod of tyrants may be broken to pieces, and the oppressed made free again; that wars may cease in all the earth, and that the confusions that are and have been among nations may be overruled by promoting and speedily bringing on that holy and happy period when the kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ may be everywhere established, and all people everywhere willingly bow to the sceptre of Him who is Prince of Peace."
--As Governor of Massachusetts, Proclamation of a Day of Fast, March 20, 1797.

James Madison: "A watchful eye must be kept on ourselves lest while we are building ideal monuments of Renown and Bliss here we neglect to have our names enrolled in the Annals of Heaven."
--Written to William Bradford on November 9, 1772, Faith of Our Founding Fathers by Tim LaHaye, pp. 130-131; Christianity and the Constitution — The Faith of Our Founding Fathers by John Eidsmoe, p. 98.

James Monroe: "When we view the blessings with which our country has been favored, those which we now enjoy, and the means which we possess of handing them down unimpaired to our latest posterity, our attention is irresistibly drawn to the source from whence they flow. Let us then, unite in offering our most grateful acknowledgments for these blessings to the Divine Author of All Good."
--Monroe made this statement in his 2nd Annual Message to Congress, November 16, 1818.

John Quincy Adams: "The hope of a Christian is inseparable from his faith. Whoever believes in the divine inspiration of the Holy Scriptures must hope that the religion of Jesus shall prevail throughout the earth. Never since the foundation of the world have the prospects of mankind been more encouraging to that hope than they appear to be at the present time. And may the associated distribution of the Bible proceed and prosper till the Lord shall have made 'bare His holy arm in the eyes of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God' (Isaiah 52:10)."
--Life of John Quincy Adams, p. 248

Benjamin Rush: "The gospel of Jesus Christ prescribes the wisest rules for just conduct in every situation of life. Happy they who are enabled to obey them in all situations!"
--The Autobiography of Benjamin Rush, pp. 165-166

Alexander Hamilton: "I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man."
--Famous American Statesmen, p. 126.

Patrick Henry: "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here."
--The Trumpet Voice of Freedom: Patrick Henry of Virginia, p. iii

I can go on and on and on with verifiable evidence of the faith of those men who forged this great country. The Atheists do their damndest to make them unbelieving "Deists", but they weren't. Which is why they held full blown worship services in the very halls of Congress believing that to be good and worthy so long as attendance was completely voluntary.

And it was those men who gave us a freedom of religion such as the world had never seen, and who gave us the most free, most prosperous, most productive, most innovative, most creative, most benevolent nation the world had ever seen.

I think it is wise to consider that if they believed in God's law being the supreme law of the land, that we should at least consider that.

Yet, not one word of Christianity in any of the founding documents?

Why is that?

Because the Founders were determined that no pope or other religious leader or monarch would have authority over the people who they intended to govern themselves. Only a people free to govern themselves are truly free. They were careful that no clause of the Constitution would give government or any special interest group license to take away those freedoms.

At the same time they emphasized that only a religious and moral people are capable of self governance and sustaining freedom.

 

[Intense]

Many who believe in the absolute truth of the Christian faith seem to believe that God's Laws should be the law or basis of the law in the US.

What think you?

Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and render unto God what is God's.

Our Laws should be rooted both in the consent of the Governed, and what we know of what is Just. What is Principle rooted in? What is clarity of purpose? What is the result when we act beyond Vision and Understanding? What is consequence?

 

[varelse]

Our Founders wanted to make sure that government could never again interfere with or oppress religious freedoms or establish one Christian denomination over another as the religion of state to the detriment of all others.

Wrong. They wanted only to ensure the federal government didn't. The several states did exactly that since they were colonies, and the FF wanted to ensure each state could continue to do so without interference from each other.

No.

There never has been a 'state religion' in the united states.

Just because a majority of Americans belong to one denomination doesn't make it official.

United States[note 9] none since 1776 which was made explicit in the Bill of Rights in 1792 none n/a; some state legislatures required all citizens in those states to be members of a church, and some had official churches, such as Congregationalism in some New England states such as Massachusetts. This eventually ended in 1833 when Massachusetts was the last state to disestablish its church.

State religion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Foxfyre]

Wrong. They wanted only to ensure the federal government didn't. The several states did exactly that since they were colonies, and the FF wanted to ensure each state could continue to do so without interference from each other.

No.

There never has been a 'state religion' in the united states.

Just because a majority of Americans belong to one denomination doesn't make it official.

United States[note 9] none since 1776 which was made explicit in the Bill of Rights in 1792 none n/a; some state legislatures required all citizens in those states to be members of a church, and some had official churches, such as Congregationalism in some New England states such as Massachusetts. This eventually ended in 1833 when Massachusetts was the last state to disestablish its church.

State religion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It is true that theocracies did exist in some colonies at the time the Constitution was signed and the federal government did not interfere as it was given no jurisdiction to do so. And it is also true that by the end of the 18th century, every one of those little theocracies had dissolved via the free will of the people, and none were written into any of the state Constitutions, all which acknowledged their blessings of freedom as being from God.