Should Ichiro make the baseball HOF?

[Lewdog]

Pinson no. These numbers don't get you in:

It's not the Hall of Good

SUMMARY
Career

Wins Above Replacement
A single number that presents the number of wins the player added
to the team above what a replacement player (think AAA or AAAA) would add.
Scale for a single-season: 8+ MVP Quality, 5+ All-Star Quality, 2+ Starter,
0-2 Reserve, < 0 Replacement Level
Developed by Sean Smith of BaseballProjection.com" style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); margin: 2px 0px; font-size: 0.785714em;">WAR
54.1

AB
9645

R
1365

H
2757

Hits/At Bats
For recent years, leaders need 3.1 PA
per team game played
Bold indicates highest BA using current stats
Gold means awarded title at end of year." style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); margin: 2px 0px; font-size: 0.785714em;">BA
.286

HR
256

RBI
1169

SB
305

(H + BB + HBP)/(At Bats + BB + HBP + SF)
For recent years, leaders need 3.1 PA
per team game played" style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); margin: 2px 0px; font-size: 0.785714em;">OBP
.327

Total Bases/At Bats or
(1B + 2*2B + 3*3B + 4*HR)/AB
For recent years, leaders need 3.1 PA
per team game played" style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); margin: 2px 0px; font-size: 0.785714em;">SLG
.442

On-Base + Slugging Percentages
For recent years, leaders need 3.1 PA
per team game played" style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); margin: 2px 0px; font-size: 0.785714em;">OPS
.769

OPS+
100*[OBP/lg OBP + SLG/lg SLG - 1]
Adjusted to the player&#x2019;s ballpark(s)" style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); margin: 2px 0px; font-size: 0.785714em;">OPS+
111

Sadly there are people that are making it in without great stats. Bill Mazeroski for example. Alan Trammell just got in and his stats aren't all that either.

 

[Meathead]

Koufax had only 4 WAR more than either Vada Pinson or Lou Brock.

Honus Wagner had a 131 WAR; Gred Maddux, 106.9; Ichiro, 59.6;

any player who dominates all of baseball for 4 years + is a HoFmer. My rule.

 

[rightwinger]

Koufax had only 4 WAR more than either Vada Pinson or Lou Brock.

Honus Wagner had a 131 WAR; Gred Maddux, 106.9; Ichiro, 59.6;

I think WAR is the dumbest stat ever invented

Nobody knows what it really means or how it is calculated

 

[JakeStarkey]

Thanks, rw. I have no idea what it means.

 

[Meathead]

Pinson no. These numbers don't get you in:

It's not the Hall of Good

SUMMARY
Career

Wins Above Replacement
A single number that presents the number of wins the player added
to the team above what a replacement player (think AAA or AAAA) would add.
Scale for a single-season: 8+ MVP Quality, 5+ All-Star Quality, 2+ Starter,
0-2 Reserve, < 0 Replacement Level
Developed by Sean Smith of BaseballProjection.com" style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); margin: 2px 0px; font-size: 0.785714em;">WAR
54.1

AB
9645

R
1365

H
2757

Hits/At Bats
For recent years, leaders need 3.1 PA
per team game played
Bold indicates highest BA using current stats
Gold means awarded title at end of year." style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); margin: 2px 0px; font-size: 0.785714em;">BA
.286

HR
256

RBI
1169

SB
305

(H + BB + HBP)/(At Bats + BB + HBP + SF)
For recent years, leaders need 3.1 PA
per team game played" style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); margin: 2px 0px; font-size: 0.785714em;">OBP
.327

Total Bases/At Bats or
(1B + 2*2B + 3*3B + 4*HR)/AB
For recent years, leaders need 3.1 PA
per team game played" style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); margin: 2px 0px; font-size: 0.785714em;">SLG
.442

On-Base + Slugging Percentages
For recent years, leaders need 3.1 PA
per team game played" style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); margin: 2px 0px; font-size: 0.785714em;">OPS
.769

OPS+
100*[OBP/lg OBP + SLG/lg SLG - 1]
Adjusted to the player&#x2019;s ballpark(s)" style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); margin: 2px 0px; font-size: 0.785714em;">OPS+
111

Sadly there are people that are making it in without great stats. Bill Mazeroski for example. Alan Trammell just got in and his stats aren't all that either.

Trammell was a SS, so yeah. Outfielders with Pinson's numbers are a dime-a-dozen.

 

[Lewdog]

Luckily I picked up a couple cards recently before it was announced... Got a Tim Raines RC and a Jack Morris RC. I've picked up several rookies lately. I got a nice Gary Carter... but the fucking post office damaged it.

 

[Lewdog]

Pinson no. These numbers don't get you in:

It's not the Hall of Good

SUMMARY
Career

Wins Above Replacement
A single number that presents the number of wins the player added
to the team above what a replacement player (think AAA or AAAA) would add.
Scale for a single-season: 8+ MVP Quality, 5+ All-Star Quality, 2+ Starter,
0-2 Reserve, < 0 Replacement Level
Developed by Sean Smith of BaseballProjection.com" style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); margin: 2px 0px; font-size: 0.785714em;">WAR
54.1

AB
9645

R
1365

H
2757

Hits/At Bats
For recent years, leaders need 3.1 PA
per team game played
Bold indicates highest BA using current stats
Gold means awarded title at end of year." style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); margin: 2px 0px; font-size: 0.785714em;">BA
.286

HR
256

RBI
1169

SB
305

(H + BB + HBP)/(At Bats + BB + HBP + SF)
For recent years, leaders need 3.1 PA
per team game played" style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); margin: 2px 0px; font-size: 0.785714em;">OBP
.327

Total Bases/At Bats or
(1B + 2*2B + 3*3B + 4*HR)/AB
For recent years, leaders need 3.1 PA
per team game played" style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); margin: 2px 0px; font-size: 0.785714em;">SLG
.442

On-Base + Slugging Percentages
For recent years, leaders need 3.1 PA
per team game played" style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); margin: 2px 0px; font-size: 0.785714em;">OPS
.769

OPS+
100*[OBP/lg OBP + SLG/lg SLG - 1]
Adjusted to the player&#x2019;s ballpark(s)" style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); margin: 2px 0px; font-size: 0.785714em;">OPS+
111

Sadly there are people that are making it in without great stats. Bill Mazeroski for example. Alan Trammell just got in and his stats aren't all that either.

Trammell was a SS, so yeah. Outfielders with Pinson's numbers are a dime-a-dozen.

Yes Trammell was a SS but he still didn't have great stats that he should have in certain categories. He had a career .977 fielding, most walks he had in a season was 69, only had 236 stolen bases... and worse of all was caught stealing 109 times! He was barely over 50% successful stealing.

 

[rightwinger]

Koufax had only 4 WAR more than either Vada Pinson or Lou Brock.

Honus Wagner had a 131 WAR; Gred Maddux, 106.9; Ichiro, 59.6;

I think WAR is the dumbest stat ever invented

Nobody knows what it really means or how it is calculated

I think WAR is all relative to how good the players at your position were compared to you
It does not take into account the fact that some eras have many, many star players at a position while other eras have just a few

Today we have many third basemen who put up great numbers....20 years ago there were just a few
A very good third baseman today would have a low WAR

 

[Meathead]

Pinson no. These numbers don't get you in:

It's not the Hall of Good

SUMMARY
Career

Wins Above Replacement
A single number that presents the number of wins the player added
to the team above what a replacement player (think AAA or AAAA) would add.
Scale for a single-season: 8+ MVP Quality, 5+ All-Star Quality, 2+ Starter,
0-2 Reserve, < 0 Replacement Level
Developed by Sean Smith of BaseballProjection.com" style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); margin: 2px 0px; font-size: 0.785714em;">WAR
54.1

AB
9645

R
1365

H
2757

Hits/At Bats
For recent years, leaders need 3.1 PA
per team game played
Bold indicates highest BA using current stats
Gold means awarded title at end of year." style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); margin: 2px 0px; font-size: 0.785714em;">BA
.286

HR
256

RBI
1169

SB
305

(H + BB + HBP)/(At Bats + BB + HBP + SF)
For recent years, leaders need 3.1 PA
per team game played" style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); margin: 2px 0px; font-size: 0.785714em;">OBP
.327

Total Bases/At Bats or
(1B + 2*2B + 3*3B + 4*HR)/AB
For recent years, leaders need 3.1 PA
per team game played" style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); margin: 2px 0px; font-size: 0.785714em;">SLG
.442

On-Base + Slugging Percentages
For recent years, leaders need 3.1 PA
per team game played" style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); margin: 2px 0px; font-size: 0.785714em;">OPS
.769

OPS+
100*[OBP/lg OBP + SLG/lg SLG - 1]
Adjusted to the player&#x2019;s ballpark(s)" style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); margin: 2px 0px; font-size: 0.785714em;">OPS+
111

Sadly there are people that are making it in without great stats. Bill Mazeroski for example. Alan Trammell just got in and his stats aren't all that either.

Trammell was a SS, so yeah. Outfielders with Pinson's numbers are a dime-a-dozen.

Yes Trammell was a SS but he still didn't even have great stats that he should have. He had a career .977 fielding, most walks he had in a season was 69, only had 236 stolen bases... and worse of all was caught stealing 109 times! He was barely over 50% successful stealing.

If you weren't ignorrant about baseball, you would understand that a .977 fielding % is not bad for a SS and that Trammell was an altogether more valuable player than Pinson. This isn't fantasy bb we're talking about.

 

[rightwinger]

Pinson no. These numbers don't get you in:

It's not the Hall of Good

SUMMARY
Career

Wins Above Replacement
A single number that presents the number of wins the player added
to the team above what a replacement player (think AAA or AAAA) would add.
Scale for a single-season: 8+ MVP Quality, 5+ All-Star Quality, 2+ Starter,
0-2 Reserve, < 0 Replacement Level
Developed by Sean Smith of BaseballProjection.com" style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); margin: 2px 0px; font-size: 0.785714em;">WAR
54.1

AB
9645

R
1365

H
2757

Hits/At Bats
For recent years, leaders need 3.1 PA
per team game played
Bold indicates highest BA using current stats
Gold means awarded title at end of year." style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); margin: 2px 0px; font-size: 0.785714em;">BA
.286

HR
256

RBI
1169

SB
305

(H + BB + HBP)/(At Bats + BB + HBP + SF)
For recent years, leaders need 3.1 PA
per team game played" style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); margin: 2px 0px; font-size: 0.785714em;">OBP
.327

Total Bases/At Bats or
(1B + 2*2B + 3*3B + 4*HR)/AB
For recent years, leaders need 3.1 PA
per team game played" style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); margin: 2px 0px; font-size: 0.785714em;">SLG
.442

On-Base + Slugging Percentages
For recent years, leaders need 3.1 PA
per team game played" style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); margin: 2px 0px; font-size: 0.785714em;">OPS
.769

OPS+
100*[OBP/lg OBP + SLG/lg SLG - 1]
Adjusted to the player&#x2019;s ballpark(s)" style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); margin: 2px 0px; font-size: 0.785714em;">OPS+
111

Sadly there are people that are making it in without great stats. Bill Mazeroski for example. Alan Trammell just got in and his stats aren't all that either.

Trammell was a SS, so yeah. Outfielders with Pinson's numbers are a dime-a-dozen.

Yes Trammell was a SS but he still didn't even have great stats that he should have. He had a career .977 fielding, most walks he had in a season was 69, only had 236 stolen bases... and worse of all was caught stealing 109 times! He was barely over 50% successful stealing.

If you weren't ignorrant about baseball, you would understand that a .977 fielding % is not bad for a SS and that Trammell was an altogether more valuable player than Pinson. This isn't fantasy bb we're talking about.

I think both were good players but neither belongs in the Hall

 

[Lewdog]

Pinson no. These numbers don't get you in:

It's not the Hall of Good

SUMMARY
Career

Wins Above Replacement
A single number that presents the number of wins the player added
to the team above what a replacement player (think AAA or AAAA) would add.
Scale for a single-season: 8+ MVP Quality, 5+ All-Star Quality, 2+ Starter,
0-2 Reserve, < 0 Replacement Level
Developed by Sean Smith of BaseballProjection.com" style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); margin: 2px 0px; font-size: 0.785714em;">WAR
54.1

AB
9645

R
1365

H
2757

Hits/At Bats
For recent years, leaders need 3.1 PA
per team game played
Bold indicates highest BA using current stats
Gold means awarded title at end of year." style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); margin: 2px 0px; font-size: 0.785714em;">BA
.286

HR
256

RBI
1169

SB
305

(H + BB + HBP)/(At Bats + BB + HBP + SF)
For recent years, leaders need 3.1 PA
per team game played" style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); margin: 2px 0px; font-size: 0.785714em;">OBP
.327

Total Bases/At Bats or
(1B + 2*2B + 3*3B + 4*HR)/AB
For recent years, leaders need 3.1 PA
per team game played" style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); margin: 2px 0px; font-size: 0.785714em;">SLG
.442

On-Base + Slugging Percentages
For recent years, leaders need 3.1 PA
per team game played" style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); margin: 2px 0px; font-size: 0.785714em;">OPS
.769

OPS+
100*[OBP/lg OBP + SLG/lg SLG - 1]
Adjusted to the player&#x2019;s ballpark(s)" style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); margin: 2px 0px; font-size: 0.785714em;">OPS+
111

Sadly there are people that are making it in without great stats. Bill Mazeroski for example. Alan Trammell just got in and his stats aren't all that either.

Trammell was a SS, so yeah. Outfielders with Pinson's numbers are a dime-a-dozen.

Yes Trammell was a SS but he still didn't even have great stats that he should have. He had a career .977 fielding, most walks he had in a season was 69, only had 236 stolen bases... and worse of all was caught stealing 109 times! He was barely over 50% successful stealing.

If you weren't ignorrant about baseball, you would understand that a .977 fielding % is not bad for a SS and that Trammell was an altogether more valuable player than Pinson. This isn't fantasy bb we're talking about.

I'm not arguing for Pinson to be in. I'm saying that the Hall of Fame is putting in some people that really aren't THAT great.

 

[leftwinger]

Brock was a mediocre field, a superb hitter, and a tremendous base stealer.

3000 hits, 900 steals, .293 average: yeah, he is HOF worthy

Brock a superb hitter???!!!! He was scarcely better than average. You must be 30 years behind the times and still judge hitters by BA. And he was a lousy fielder and his base stealing percentage was a mediocre 75%. He really wasn't good at anything .

I remember Lou Brock
He was a presence on the field. Beyond his stats, he drove pitchers nuts once he got on base. Threw off their rhythm, made them continually throw to first, made the players around him better

Bill James does not account for that

Brock's metrics are great. ShootSpeeders simply does not understand that stats that surround the game today.

I bet SS thinks Buster Posey is read for the HOF right now. He is not.

Buster Posey is a unanimous first ballot superb all-around player with 3 WS titles in 5 years. Who was better?

Like Brock.....when all on the line, they produce. No one cares if Scooter Gennet hits 4 Hr in a May game in last place.

Winning us huge. Posey may be better than Molina in his prime?

 

[Lewdog]

Brock was a mediocre field, a superb hitter, and a tremendous base stealer.

3000 hits, 900 steals, .293 average: yeah, he is HOF worthy

Brock a superb hitter???!!!! He was scarcely better than average. You must be 30 years behind the times and still judge hitters by BA. And he was a lousy fielder and his base stealing percentage was a mediocre 75%. He really wasn't good at anything .

I remember Lou Brock
He was a presence on the field. Beyond his stats, he drove pitchers nuts once he got on base. Threw off their rhythm, made them continually throw to first, made the players around him better

Bill James does not account for that

Brock's metrics are great. ShootSpeeders simply does not understand that stats that surround the game today.

I bet SS thinks Buster Posey is read for the HOF right now. He is not.

Buster Posey is a unanimous first ballot superb all-around player with 3 WS titles in 5 years. Who was better?

Like Brock.....when all on the line, they produce. No on cares if Scooter Gennet hits 4 Hr in a May game in last place.

Winning us huge. Posey may be better than Molina in his prime?

Posey is a great player, but Molina was a better defensive catcher in his prime.

I'm a Reds fan, and I can't believe how much better Scooter started playing when he got traded to the Reds. Most homers he had hit in a season prior to this year was 14, then he hits 27 in 141 games for the Reds. Had he played all 162 he might have hit 30. He also hit .295 and had 97 RBIs.. as a SECOND BASEMAN! That's insane. He had some of the best stats for a second baseman in MLB and got absolutely no attention other than his 4 HR game.

...and despite the Reds having a 94 loss season, they actually joined a short list of teams to have SIX players hit over 20 homers in the same season. Largest problem the Reds had is a very young starting pitching staff with a lot of injuries, and a shitty bull pen. I think the Reds led the majors in the number of different pitchers to start a game in the season.

 

[MarathonMike]

I saw him in the World Series, saw the impact he had on pitchers and catchers once he got on base. He disrupted the game, took pitchers out of their comfort zone forced the other team to make mistakes

Yes, basestealers disrupt pitchers but they also disrupt batters. Many batters don't like it when the runner on first is bouncing around. Fact is base-stealing is not an important skill and certainly not for brock who was thrown out 25% of the time.

Off of first base? I'll agree that a guy dancing around off second

I saw him in the World Series, saw the impact he had on pitchers and catchers once he got on base. He disrupted the game, took pitchers out of their comfort zone forced the other team to make mistakes

Yes, basestealers disrupt pitchers but they also disrupt batters. Many batters don't like it when the runner on first is bouncing around. Fact is base-stealing is not an important skill and certainly not for brock who was thrown out 25% of the time.

Ok you keep bringing up Brock's 25% throw out rate so let me respond to that. Let's look at someone from the same era who had a similar impact on the game with his speed that being Maury Wills. Yes Maury is not in the Hall but the point I would like to make is his throw out rate was WORSE than Lou Brocks! How can it be that two of the greatest base stealers in history could have such relatively poor success rates at stealing? Simple. When you are Lou Brock or Maury Wills everyone in the ballpark knows you are going to steal. The catcher is always ready, the pitcher gets the ball to home a fraction of a second quicker, the mid infielders are already hedging toward second. So yeah they got thrown out one out of 4 times but given that everyone and their Mom knew they were going to steal makes that all the more remarkable IMO.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Buster may make it, but only after years and years of eligibility.

 

[rightwinger]

I saw him in the World Series, saw the impact he had on pitchers and catchers once he got on base. He disrupted the game, took pitchers out of their comfort zone forced the other team to make mistakes

Yes, basestealers disrupt pitchers but they also disrupt batters. Many batters don't like it when the runner on first is bouncing around. Fact is base-stealing is not an important skill and certainly not for brock who was thrown out 25% of the time.

Off of first base? I'll agree that a guy dancing around off second

I saw him in the World Series, saw the impact he had on pitchers and catchers once he got on base. He disrupted the game, took pitchers out of their comfort zone forced the other team to make mistakes

Yes, basestealers disrupt pitchers but they also disrupt batters. Many batters don't like it when the runner on first is bouncing around. Fact is base-stealing is not an important skill and certainly not for brock who was thrown out 25% of the time.

Ok you keep bringing up Brock's 25% throw out rate so let me respond to that. Let's look at someone from the same era who had a similar impact on the game with his speed that being Maury Wills. Yes Maury is not in the Hall but the point I would like to make is his throw out rate was WORSE than Lou Brocks! How can it be that two of the greatest base stealers in history could have such relatively poor success rates at stealing? Simple. When you are Lou Brock or Maury Wills everyone in the ballpark knows you are going to steal. The catcher is always ready, the pitcher gets the ball to home a fraction of a second quicker, the mid infielders are already hedging toward second. So yeah they got thrown out one out of 4 times but given that everyone and their Mom knew they were going to steal makes that all the more remarkable IMO.

Anyone know what Ty Cobbs percentage was?

 

[Lewdog]

I saw him in the World Series, saw the impact he had on pitchers and catchers once he got on base. He disrupted the game, took pitchers out of their comfort zone forced the other team to make mistakes

Yes, basestealers disrupt pitchers but they also disrupt batters. Many batters don't like it when the runner on first is bouncing around. Fact is base-stealing is not an important skill and certainly not for brock who was thrown out 25% of the time.

Off of first base? I'll agree that a guy dancing around off second

I saw him in the World Series, saw the impact he had on pitchers and catchers once he got on base. He disrupted the game, took pitchers out of their comfort zone forced the other team to make mistakes

Yes, basestealers disrupt pitchers but they also disrupt batters. Many batters don't like it when the runner on first is bouncing around. Fact is base-stealing is not an important skill and certainly not for brock who was thrown out 25% of the time.

Ok you keep bringing up Brock's 25% throw out rate so let me respond to that. Let's look at someone from the same era who had a similar impact on the game with his speed that being Maury Wills. Yes Maury is not in the Hall but the point I would like to make is his throw out rate was WORSE than Lou Brocks! How can it be that two of the greatest base stealers in history could have such relatively poor success rates at stealing? Simple. When you are Lou Brock or Maury Wills everyone in the ballpark knows you are going to steal. The catcher is always ready, the pitcher gets the ball to home a fraction of a second quicker, the mid infielders are already hedging toward second. So yeah they got thrown out one out of 4 times but given that everyone and their Mom knew they were going to steal makes that all the more remarkable IMO.

Anyone know what Ty Cobbs percentage was?

There are a bunch of years his caught stealing numbers aren't listed so it is impossible to know.

Ty Cobb Stats | Baseball-Reference.com

 

[Lewdog]

Since this thread is about Ichiro, I just saw a stat that he is second all time to Vince Coleman's (50), but Ichiro had 45 stolen bases in a row before getting caught.

Here is the list of all-time stolen base percentages. (Two of my favorite players all time are in the list, Barry Larkin and Eric Davis)

Player SB Attempts SB%[39]
Chase Utley 127 143 88.8%
Carlos Beltrán 289 328 88.1%
Tim Raines 808 954 84.7%
Eric Davis 349 415 84.1%
Willie Wilson 668 802 83.3%
Barry Larkin 379 456 83.11%
Tony Womack 363 437 83.07%
Jimmy Rollins 343 413 83.05%
Davey Lopes 557 671 83.01%
Carl Crawford 409 499 82.0%
Julio Cruz 343 421 81.5%
Ichiro Suzuki 508 624 81.4%
Joe Morgan 689 851 80.96%
Vince Coleman 752 929 80.95%
Rickey Henderson 1406 1741 80.8%

List of Major League Baseball stolen base records - Wikipedia

 

[rightwinger]

I saw him in the World Series, saw the impact he had on pitchers and catchers once he got on base. He disrupted the game, took pitchers out of their comfort zone forced the other team to make mistakes

Yes, basestealers disrupt pitchers but they also disrupt batters. Many batters don't like it when the runner on first is bouncing around. Fact is base-stealing is not an important skill and certainly not for brock who was thrown out 25% of the time.

Off of first base? I'll agree that a guy dancing around off second

I saw him in the World Series, saw the impact he had on pitchers and catchers once he got on base. He disrupted the game, took pitchers out of their comfort zone forced the other team to make mistakes

Yes, basestealers disrupt pitchers but they also disrupt batters. Many batters don't like it when the runner on first is bouncing around. Fact is base-stealing is not an important skill and certainly not for brock who was thrown out 25% of the time.

Ok you keep bringing up Brock's 25% throw out rate so let me respond to that. Let's look at someone from the same era who had a similar impact on the game with his speed that being Maury Wills. Yes Maury is not in the Hall but the point I would like to make is his throw out rate was WORSE than Lou Brocks! How can it be that two of the greatest base stealers in history could have such relatively poor success rates at stealing? Simple. When you are Lou Brock or Maury Wills everyone in the ballpark knows you are going to steal. The catcher is always ready, the pitcher gets the ball to home a fraction of a second quicker, the mid infielders are already hedging toward second. So yeah they got thrown out one out of 4 times but given that everyone and their Mom knew they were going to steal makes that all the more remarkable IMO.

Anyone know what Ty Cobbs percentage was?

There are a bunch of years his caught stealing numbers aren't listed so it is impossible to know.

Ty Cobb Stats | Baseball-Reference.com

Interesting

In the years reported Cobb looks like about 65 percent successful

And he was considered the greatest base stealer of all time

 

[Lewdog]

I saw him in the World Series, saw the impact he had on pitchers and catchers once he got on base. He disrupted the game, took pitchers out of their comfort zone forced the other team to make mistakes

Yes, basestealers disrupt pitchers but they also disrupt batters. Many batters don't like it when the runner on first is bouncing around. Fact is base-stealing is not an important skill and certainly not for brock who was thrown out 25% of the time.

Off of first base? I'll agree that a guy dancing around off second

I saw him in the World Series, saw the impact he had on pitchers and catchers once he got on base. He disrupted the game, took pitchers out of their comfort zone forced the other team to make mistakes

Yes, basestealers disrupt pitchers but they also disrupt batters. Many batters don't like it when the runner on first is bouncing around. Fact is base-stealing is not an important skill and certainly not for brock who was thrown out 25% of the time.

Ok you keep bringing up Brock's 25% throw out rate so let me respond to that. Let's look at someone from the same era who had a similar impact on the game with his speed that being Maury Wills. Yes Maury is not in the Hall but the point I would like to make is his throw out rate was WORSE than Lou Brocks! How can it be that two of the greatest base stealers in history could have such relatively poor success rates at stealing? Simple. When you are Lou Brock or Maury Wills everyone in the ballpark knows you are going to steal. The catcher is always ready, the pitcher gets the ball to home a fraction of a second quicker, the mid infielders are already hedging toward second. So yeah they got thrown out one out of 4 times but given that everyone and their Mom knew they were going to steal makes that all the more remarkable IMO.

Anyone know what Ty Cobbs percentage was?

There are a bunch of years his caught stealing numbers aren't listed so it is impossible to know.

Ty Cobb Stats | Baseball-Reference.com

Interesting

In the years reported Cobb looks like about 65 percent successful

And he was considered the greatest base stealer of all time

Yeah by far Ricky Henderson was the best lead off hitter and stolen base player of all-time. And it's really not even close.