Should Thanksgiving even be a holiday?

[Sunshine]

Lincoln in his Thanksgiving proclamation stated: "The year that is drawing towards its close, has been filled with the blessings of fruitful fields and healthful skies. To these bounties, which are so constantly enjoyed that we are prone to forget the source from which they come, others have been added, which are of so extraordinary a nature, that they cannot fail to penetrate and soften even the heart which is habitually insensible to the ever watchful providence of Almighty God."

Thanksgiving Proclamation by Abraham Lincoln

FDR changed the days to accommodate business, "In 1939, however, the last Thursday in November fell on the last day of the month. Concerned that the shortened Christmas shopping season might dampen the economic recovery, President Franklin D. Roosevelt issued a Presidential Proclamation moving Thanksgiving to the second to last Thursday of November."

Congress Establishes Thanksgiving


Thanksgiving to me is about how I live the rest of the year and the gratitude I feel is a state of being, not just about a turkey and whatever else the day represents.

My point is not about what the day means to you. My point is that the Thanksgiving holiday is based in the religious sacrament of prayer. Therefore atheists should man up and decline taking the day off. Same with Christmas.

Atheists are always talking about the vile Christians and bragging about their own superior ethics. Yet, they will ride the coat tail of Christians for a paid day off and simply will not stand up for their lack of belief. That is not very ethical.

 

[Sunshine]

How the hell is my getting Christmas off taking advantage of someone else? My employer signed a contract with me that compensates me for my hard work. Part of that compensation includes paid time off, some of which is on days like Christmas when the office is closed anyway, and some of which is days I can choose.

If anything, I'm being a really nice guy by taking Jesus' birthday with everyone else and not insisting that I get Carl Sagan's birthday instead.

Please explain how atheists are disadvantaging anyone by simply going with the flow and not being the self-righteous pricks we have every right to be on this issue.

This should be good.

​

Christmas is a Christian holiday. He is only giving it to you because of the Christian tradition. He, himself, may even be a Christian and is giving you, one of his servants, the day off according to HIS convictions. I can't imagine why you would want a Christian holiday, given how much Christianity is maligned and hated on this forum. You could insist on Carl Sagan's birthday and work on Christmas. You could even insist on Darwin's birthday instead of Thanksgiving. Now, that might reflect one of those many ethics that atheists claim to have, but in fact do not.

Interesting, but doesn't exactly explain how I'm "taking advantage" by not being a dick about it.

Ah, so declining a paid Christian holiday when you object to everything else Christian would be 'being a dick.' So, then, why are you a dick about all the other Christian things that have resided in our courthouses and government buildings and which harm no one? I guess the difference is that you don't get paid the almighty dollar for letting those items reside there. My, my how little an atheist will sell out for.

 

[PixieStix]

I love love love Thanksgiving. It gives perspective

 

[Sunshine]

I love love love Thanksgiving. It gives perspective

But Thanksgiving is a government holiday based in a religious sacrament. That is verboten in a secular government.

 

[AVG-JOE]

The thing about atheists is that not only do they not have any songs, they also don't have any holidays. They have to ride the coat tails of Christians on that one! And they do it shamelessly.

Bullshit. I have holidays because they're in my contract. The religious tradition behind them is quite irrelevant to me at this moment in history.

You should not accept 'holidays' (holy days). You should insist on your contract being entirely without any religious connotation whatsoever. You might ask for April 1, though.

Perhaps the best thing for our relationship is for us to strictly avoid telling each other what we should or shouldn't do.

​

 

[Sunshine]

Bullshit. I have holidays because they're in my contract. The religious tradition behind them is quite irrelevant to me at this moment in history.

You should not accept 'holidays' (holy days). You should insist on your contract being entirely without any religious connotation whatsoever. You might ask for April 1, though.

Perhaps the best thing for our relationship is for us to strictly avoid telling each other what we should or shouldn't do.

​

I was not aware we were in a 'relationship.' However, I find that atheists on here are ALWAYS telling Christians what they should do, what they should think, what they should believe and not believe, and how they should behave. So, it's a bitter pill to swallow when it comes back around to you isn't it! You cannot deny that your stance on taking the holidays based in Christianity is hypocritical at best.

 

[syrenn]

The thing about atheists is that not only do they not have any songs, they also don't have any holidays. They have to ride the coat tails of Christians on that one! And they do it shamelessly.

Bullshit. I have holidays because they're in my contract. The religious tradition behind them is quite irrelevant to me at this moment in history.

You should not accept 'holidays' (holy days). You should insist on your contract being entirely without any religious connotation whatsoever. You might ask for April 1, though.

Holiday has more then one meaning...... however i do worship my vacation time.




holiday
  Use Holiday in a sentence
hol·i·day
[hol-i-dey] Show IPA
noun
1.
a day fixed by law or custom on which ordinary business is suspended in commemoration of some event or in honor of some person.
2.
any day of exemption from work (distinguished from working day ).
3.
a time or period of exemption from any requirement, duty, assessment, etc.: New businesses may be granted a one-year tax holiday.
4.
a religious feast day; holy day, especially any of several usually commemorative holy days observed in Judaism.
5.
Sometimes, holidays. Chiefly British . a period of cessation from work or one of recreation; vacation.

 

[Katzndogz]

I thought wiki was beneath you.

how about the history channel?



Thanksgiving Facts Video ? History.com

The History Channel does some good stuff, but I put more faith in the Smithsonian Institution when it comes to American History. Encyclopedia Smithsonian: Thanksgiving in North America: From Local Harvests to National Holiday

The first Thanksgiving in North America was in New Foundland in 1578. “In the same year, Jamestown colonists gave thanks for their safe arrival, and another service was held in 1610 when a supply ship arrived after a harsh winter… Thus British colonists held several Thanksgiving services in America before the Pilgrim's celebration in 1621.”

“The Pilgrims, with a puritanical rejection of public religious display, held a non-religious Thanksgiving feast, aside from saying grace. In fact, they seem to have used the three days for feasting, playing games, and even drinking liquor.”

“In 1623, the Pilgrims at Plymouth Plantation, Massachusetts, held another day of Thanksgiving… This 1623 festival appears to have been the origin of our Thanksgiving Day because it combined a religious and social celebration”

“Festivals of Thanksgiving were observed sporadically on a local level for more than 150 years. They tended to be autumn harvest celebrations. But in 1789, Elias Boudinot, Massachusetts, member of the House of Representatives, moved that a day of Thanksgiving be held to thank God for giving the American people the opportunity to create a Constitution to preserve their hard won freedoms. A Congressional Joint Committee approved the motion, and informed President George Washington. On October 3, 1789, the President proclaimed that the people of the United States observe "a day of public thanksgiving and prayer" on Thursday, the 26th of November.”

“The next three Presidents proclaimed, at most, two days of thanksgiving sometime during their terms of office, either on their own initiative or at the request of a joint Resolution of Congress. One exception was Thomas Jefferson, who believed it was a conflict of church and state to require the American people hold a day of prayer and thanksgiving. President James Madison proclaimed a day of Thanksgiving to be held on April 13, 1815, the last such proclamation issued by a President until Abraham Lincoln did so in 1862.”

Thanksgiving was not created by Lincoln to heal the country after the Civil War. The first Thanksgiving was, indeed, something the Pilgrams did in 1622/3. George Washington made is a formal day for the whole country in 1789. Lincoln was the 5th President to proclaim it a national holiday, which he did in 1862, 3 years before the end of the civil war, so it wasn't to heal the country after the war.

An OBSERVANCE of Thanksgiving does not make it a HOLIDAY. We observe Halloween but it is NOT a holiday. Catholics observe Good Friday but it is not a holiday. A holiday with a day off didn't happen until Lincoln said so.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Christmas is a Christian holiday. He is only giving it to you because of the Christian tradition. He, himself, may even be a Christian and is giving you, one of his servants, the day off according to HIS convictions. I can't imagine why you would want a Christian holiday, given how much Christianity is maligned and hated on this forum. You could insist on Carl Sagan's birthday and work on Christmas. You could even insist on Darwin's birthday instead of Thanksgiving. Now, that might reflect one of those many ethics that atheists claim to have, but in fact do not.

Interesting, but doesn't exactly explain how I'm "taking advantage" by not being a dick about it.

Ah, so declining a paid Christian holiday when you object to everything else Christian would be 'being a dick.' So, then, why are you a dick about all the other Christian things that have resided in our courthouses and government buildings and which harm no one? I guess the difference is that you don't get paid the almighty dollar for letting those items reside there. My, my how little an atheist will sell out for.

No... insisting on working on a day when the office is closed, all the while insisting on having a different day off with more personal meaning to me, thus creating logistical problems for both my boss and my colleagues would be being a dick.


Why can't I just be a nice guy and go with the flow?

​

 

[Bill Angel]

Thanksgiving is not a religious holiday.

Negged! You are an idiot.

Well to whom is the thanks being given? The Annunaki?

A person doesn't have to be religous or have a "God" to be thankful. People can be thankful that they can sit as a family and have a wonderful meal. They can be thankful for having each other and being in a position that enables them to gather and afford to eat wonderful food. They can view how other less fortunate people live and be thankful for the life they have here in America. If one wishs to thank God, they may. If one doesn't want to thank God, they don't have to. That in itself is something to be thankful for. Thanksgiving is a time to be thankful for what we have. God has nothing to do with it.

I agree. And Thanksgiving is also a time in many communities where those more fortunate extend themselves to provide free Thanksgiving dinners for those who are in need, the poor and the homeless, as is depicted here.

Church Group Serving Thanksgiving Dinner to the Community

 

[AVG-JOE]

It's not like Christians or any one else has OWNERSHIP of the last Thursday in November. Get off your high horse and rejoin humanity.

 

[paperview]

...
“The next three Presidents proclaimed, at most, two days of thanksgiving sometime during their terms of office, either on their own initiative or at the request of a joint Resolution of Congress. One exception was Thomas Jefferson, who believed it was a conflict of church and state to require the American people hold a day of prayer and thanksgiving. President James Madison proclaimed a day of Thanksgiving to be held on April 13, 1815, the last such proclamation issued by a President until Abraham Lincoln did so in 1862.”

Thanksgiving was not created by Lincoln to heal the country after the Civil War. The first Thanksgiving was, indeed, something the Pilgrams did in 1622/3. George Washington made is a formal day for the whole country in 1789. Lincoln was the 5th President to proclaim it a national holiday, which he did in 1862, 3 years before the end of the civil war, so it wasn't to heal the country after the war.

I take exception to this last paragraph of yours. Agreed on the first Pilgrim Thanksgiving, but as to the rest...

Lincoln WAS the president who made it a regular National Holiday and it was in 1863 (not 1862) Before that it was held on different days by different states. Some states didn't even recognize it (southern states mostly). Lincoln made it nationally uniform as the last Thursday of November (with much credit going to Sarah J. Hale, the editor of Godey's Lady's Book).

Lincoln's proclamation after Gettysburg (really, the tuning point of the war) was surely meant to heal the nation during the war - and his words bespeak this:

"...with humble penitence for our national perverseness and disobedience, commend to His tender care all those who have become widows, orphans, mourners or sufferers in the lamentable civil strife in which we are unavoidably engaged, and fervently implore the interposition of the Almighty Hand to heal the wounds of the nation and to restore it..."
​

After the war, the South finally joined in, and it then became a regular, ongoing National Holiday.

As to the other comment about Lincoln being "the 5th" to proclaim it - it has to be noted the other proclamations were for THAT DAY -- that is "Thursday, the 26th of November, 1789," (Washington's, for example, to celebrate our new Constitution as well).

Now...I'd like to know where the 5th President to declare that day a national holiday came in (dismissing the singularity/uniformity difference I described).

I assume it was from the article which notes: "The next three Presidents proclaimed, at most, two days of thanksgiving sometime during their terms of office" and recognizes that Thomas Jefferson didn't proclaim them. (more on that in a minute) --

So, after Washington, it's John Adams. Adams didn't proclaim a Thanksgiving day, at least in terms of what we recognize as Thanksgiving Day today. In fact, his two Proclamations were for a day of humiliation and fasting! Sort of the opposite of the harvest celebration and Pilgrimy turkey gobblins. Oh, and they were each in the month of MARCH. (1798 and 1799) You can see them here: Presidential Proclamations

So, Washington? Yes.
Adams? No.
Jefferson? No.

So far we've got ONE president up to Madison (he was the 4th President) ...where in the heck are the "next three presidents?" There is something wrong with the wording in that article, even if we give that Adams day of Fastings in March were, yes, technically - "Thanksgiving Proclamations." (not anywhere near the holiday we are talking about) --

Now up to Madison. He had two Proclamations. One in November a Day of Public Humiliation, Fasting, and Prayer - during the War of 1812 (there's that fasting again!), and another in April 1815, which was Proclamation 20 - Recommending a Day of Public Thanksgiving for Peace.

So, I give credit for bringing in a reputable source as the Smithsonian, however, what you relayed was incorrect. Lincoln was most certainly not the "the 5th President to proclaim it a national holiday" - and that article, as I showed has flaws, in relating those other Proclamations to the national holiday we celebrate in November.

Getting back to Jefferson's refusal to issue any Proclamations: Historical sidenote: This is where his famous Danbury letter about his ever-still-discussed "Wall of Separation" between Church and State comes in. That was about tada! Thanksgiving & Fasting Proclamations. I can expound on that more if you like

 

[manifold]

Based on principles argued by the left on this forum, how is it that Thanksgiving is a legal American holiday? Yes it is based on a supposed historical event, but its underpinnings are entirely religious. Both he pilgrims AND the Indians believed there was a deity to be thanked for the abundant harvest. That is the traditional belief. Only two religious foundations there.

So, doesn't giving Thanksgiving day off to federal workers underpin a preference by the government for the two religions represented there?

I post this because the left is so classically atheist and yet they have gone to the mat over Walmart and other places staying open on Thanksgiving day. What's so special about that day other than the religious connotation. And I don't want to hear anything about family and other blah blah blah. I am a nurse and I learned years ago that it still feels like Thanksgiving on the Saturday after. You can get together with family and eat turkey and pray any day of the year.

And if the store owner happens to be atheist, then shouldn't his lack of religion be respected in regard to his store? Why should he have to close on Thanksgiving because his employees want to pray that day? Doesn't that violate his rights as a non believer?

Is this some attempt at an elaborate strawman, or are you actually arguing that Thanksgiving shouldn't be a national holiday?

I honestly can't tell.

 

[Sunshine]

Interesting, but doesn't exactly explain how I'm "taking advantage" by not being a dick about it.

Ah, so declining a paid Christian holiday when you object to everything else Christian would be 'being a dick.' So, then, why are you a dick about all the other Christian things that have resided in our courthouses and government buildings and which harm no one? I guess the difference is that you don't get paid the almighty dollar for letting those items reside there. My, my how little an atheist will sell out for.

No... insisting on working on a day when the office is closed, all the while insisting on having a different day off with more personal meaning to me, thus creating logistical problems for both my boss and my colleagues would be being a dick.


Why can't I just be a nice guy and go with the flow?

​

One might ask the same thing regarding the things atheists have demanded be abolished and removed from public sites where those things have resided for decades. You know, they can't even celebrate Thanksgiving with a prayer in school any longer and giving thanks is what the day is all about. I have to wonder how they even teach it. Perhaps it goes something like 'Adam and Bruce got together with Wywana and Watseeka and gobbled down a big feast of tofu because eating animals was politically incorrect.

Well, I worked where MLK day was a 'floating holiday.' The office was open. If you wanted the day you got it that day if you wanted it another day you got it another day. You might suggest to your boss a similar system, since Christianity and Christians make you so nauseous. I mean, Thanksgiving and Christmas are clearly illegal. The fact that they haven't been challenged doesn't mean they aren't. They are as illegal as referencing God in the pledge, and on money. It is even illegal to have the Eye of Horus on our money. No one seems to find using the US dollar abhorrent, though, even though it is replete with religious symbology. Atheists are big hypocrites. They want everything that Christians established and treasure for themselves, and they want to condemn those very Christians for establishing those things.

I could respect an atheist who declined Thanksgiving and Christmas. Surely your boss could find something you could do at home if he didn't want you in the office. I mean if I had a business, that is what I would do to accommodate the atheist employee.

 

[Sunshine]

It's not like Christians or any one else has OWNERSHIP of the last Thursday in November. Get off your high horse and rejoin humanity.

A deity or deities certainly has ownership of the NAME of the day. Stop being a hypocrite.

 

[AVG-JOE]

You should not accept 'holidays' (holy days). You should insist on your contract being entirely without any religious connotation whatsoever. You might ask for April 1, though.

Perhaps the best thing for our relationship is for us to strictly avoid telling each other what we should or shouldn't do.

​

I was not aware we were in a 'relationship.' However, I find that atheists on here are ALWAYS telling Christians what they should do, what they should think, what they should believe and not believe, and how they should behave. So, it's a bitter pill to swallow when it comes back around to you isn't it! You cannot deny that your stance on taking the holidays based in Christianity is hypocritical at best.

So you prejudge me and lump me in to a wide open group using pointless political labels?

That's kind of bigoted in my humble opinion, but, agree or not, I'll defend your right to express your opinion to my dying breath.


If you can point to a post of mine where I try to tell you or anyone how to live their lives, I'll apologize profoundly and kiss your ass on the 50 yard line of any game you buy the tickets for.

 

[Katzndogz]

Negged! You are an idiot.

Well to whom is the thanks being given? The Annunaki?

A person doesn't have to be religous or have a "God" to be thankful. People can be thankful that they can sit as a family and have a wonderful meal. They can be thankful for having each other and being in a position that enables them to gather and afford to eat wonderful food. They can view how other less fortunate people live and be thankful for the life they have here in America. If one wishs to thank God, they may. If one doesn't want to thank God, they don't have to. That in itself is something to be thankful for. Thanksgiving is a time to be thankful for what we have. God has nothing to do with it.

I agree. And Thanksgiving is also a time in many communities where those more fortunate extend themselves to provide free Thanksgiving dinners for those who are in need, the poor and the homeless, as is depicted here.

Church Group Serving Thanksgiving Dinner to the Community

They are giving Thanks to what? To who? To rich people who provide the food for those in need, poor and homeless.

 

[Sunshine]

Perhaps the best thing for our relationship is for us to strictly avoid telling each other what we should or shouldn't do.

​

I was not aware we were in a 'relationship.' However, I find that atheists on here are ALWAYS telling Christians what they should do, what they should think, what they should believe and not believe, and how they should behave. So, it's a bitter pill to swallow when it comes back around to you isn't it! You cannot deny that your stance on taking the holidays based in Christianity is hypocritical at best.

So you prejudge me and lump me in to a wide open group using pointless political labels?

That's kind of bigoted in my humble opinion, but, agree or not, I'll defend your right to express your opinion to my dying breath.


If you can point to a post of mine where I try to tell you or anyone how to live their lives, I'll apologize profoundly and kiss your ass on the 50 yard line of any game you buy the tickets for.

Do you seriously thing I am going to spend my time going back over all your posts? How arrogant.

As to the group thing, well did you ever hear of guilt by association? Or 'tell me who your friends are and I will tell you who you are?' Seriously you can't believe that someone would think you are the lone atheist who doesn't want all religious icons removed from public buildings, and all reference to God removed from government. That is what atheism is and does. Of course you try to tell Christians what to do.

As to bigotry, don't you think it is bigoted to insist on the removal of all things Christian from American government and then continue to use the tainted US dollar?

 

[Sunshine]

Negged! You are an idiot.

Well to whom is the thanks being given? The Annunaki?

A person doesn't have to be religous or have a "God" to be thankful. People can be thankful that they can sit as a family and have a wonderful meal. They can be thankful for having each other and being in a position that enables them to gather and afford to eat wonderful food. They can view how other less fortunate people live and be thankful for the life they have here in America. If one wishs to thank God, they may. If one doesn't want to thank God, they don't have to. That in itself is something to be thankful for. Thanksgiving is a time to be thankful for what we have. God has nothing to do with it.

I agree. And Thanksgiving is also a time in many communities where those more fortunate extend themselves to provide free Thanksgiving dinners for those who are in need, the poor and the homeless, as is depicted here.

Church Group Serving Thanksgiving Dinner to the Community

Don't the poor and homeless get hungry on all the other days? That would be the classic liberal atheist response.

 

[syrenn]

I thought wiki was beneath you.

how about the history channel?



Thanksgiving Facts Video ? History.com

The History Channel does some good stuff, but I put more faith in the Smithsonian Institution when it comes to American History. Encyclopedia Smithsonian: Thanksgiving in North America: From Local Harvests to National Holiday

The first Thanksgiving in North America was in New Foundland in 1578. “In the same year, Jamestown colonists gave thanks for their safe arrival, and another service was held in 1610 when a supply ship arrived after a harsh winter… Thus British colonists held several Thanksgiving services in America before the Pilgrim's celebration in 1621.”

“The Pilgrims, with a puritanical rejection of public religious display, held a non-religious Thanksgiving feast, aside from saying grace. In fact, they seem to have used the three days for feasting, playing games, and even drinking liquor.”

“In 1623, the Pilgrims at Plymouth Plantation, Massachusetts, held another day of Thanksgiving… This 1623 festival appears to have been the origin of our Thanksgiving Day because it combined a religious and social celebration”

“Festivals of Thanksgiving were observed sporadically on a local level for more than 150 years. They tended to be autumn harvest celebrations. But in 1789, Elias Boudinot, Massachusetts, member of the House of Representatives, moved that a day of Thanksgiving be held to thank God for giving the American people the opportunity to create a Constitution to preserve their hard won freedoms. A Congressional Joint Committee approved the motion, and informed President George Washington. On October 3, 1789, the President proclaimed that the people of the United States observe "a day of public thanksgiving and prayer" on Thursday, the 26th of November.”

“The next three Presidents proclaimed, at most, two days of thanksgiving sometime during their terms of office, either on their own initiative or at the request of a joint Resolution of Congress. One exception was Thomas Jefferson, who believed it was a conflict of church and state to require the American people hold a day of prayer and thanksgiving. President James Madison proclaimed a day of Thanksgiving to be held on April 13, 1815, the last such proclamation issued by a President until Abraham Lincoln did so in 1862.”

Thanksgiving was not created by Lincoln to heal the country after the Civil War. The first Thanksgiving was, indeed, something the Pilgrams did in 1622/3. George Washington made is a formal day for the whole country in 1789. Lincoln was the 5th President to proclaim it a national holiday, which he did in 1862, 3 years before the end of the civil war, so it wasn't to heal the country after the war.

The origin of "thanksgiving" goes back longer then the pilgrims. It is something that is is and was celebrated on every continent and every culture.

The pilgrims " first thanksgiving" was nothing more then a pagan harvest festival..... something that is celebrated around the world at the end of the major harvest time.

nothing new.... and certainly not something that the pilgrims started...


They also should have been giving thanks and bowing down in worship....to the people who saved their sorry asses from starving..... the Indians.