Should we raise the Debt Ceiling?

[Darkwind]

We are coming to a cliff. Either we raise the debt ceiling, reduce our deficit or default on our obligations. If we continue to raise our limit, it is meaningless and we haven't leaned anything. But likewise, it could be a catastrophe.

Should we make cuts right away and apply them to the deficit so we can show the world we are serious about our debt, ganing world confidence again? Negotiate cuts to pass them right away?

Or have a showdown in Congress and with the Administration? Or take the easy route and just increase the limit. Or a combination?

Let's debate.

Don't we have to have a budget in order to determine how much we are spending before we decide if we have to lift the debt limit?

The last Congress NEVER PASSED A BUDGET!

 

[Sallow]

I disagree wholeheartedly.

Government, in my eyes, we designed to handle issues for the people that the people themselves do not have the resources to handle. Internatiuonal realtions, border defense, natural disasters, etc.

But I do not see government as a body that has the responsibility to help me out if I make a bad decision....or the wrong decision (bad or good).

Conservatives believe in personal responsibility. Seems those that are not conservative have trouble understanding this one basic premise.

Bullshit.

Primitive governments had nothing to do with "Borders or international relations".

Our government did...from day 1.
and that is all you had to say about my post?
Make reference to primitive governments?
I thoiught this debate was about the US government.

Seriously?

That was part of what our government did.

They also cleared forests, built roads, explored new territory, offered land and help to people who wanted to settle in under populated areas and that's basically just the beginning.

If you actually read the Constitution:

Section 8 - Powers of Congress

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

Those are VERY BROAD AND CENTRALIZED powers.
-Collect Taxes.
-Provide for the Common Defense.
-Provide for the General Welfare.

Exactly what every government since the beginning of time does. If it does not..it fails quickly.

 

[Sallow]

I think bioeddica hit the note. Government's purpose is to guarantee our individual liberties. Freedom of religion, rights endowed only by our creator, pursuit of happyness. Deity is what made us great along with the founders being wise enough to know that religion couldn't be forced upon anyone. It's an amazing paradox that worked. Centralized government made us weak.

No it's not.

Governments have been around before organized religion.

The main purpose of government is the distribution of goods and services, and shared responsibilities to make that purpose possible.

It has been from the time of Hunter/Gatherers until the Complex systems we see today.

Everything else are abstracts..and in many cases, distractions.

What goods and services would that be?.

-Defense.
-Access to food and water.
-Access to shelter.

Those are the bottom line goods and services.

 

[jillian]

Why are conservatives so crazy?

We have troops in the field involved in multiple actions. Not raising the ceiling is going to hurt them, and hurt them big.

I didn't and don't agree on the extent of the military actions. But I am pretty damned angry that anyone wants to play chicken when it involves our brave young people that are fighting for our country.

This is a ridiculous thing to do.

of course, it's ridiclous. idealogues often refuse to look at ramifications.

and notice, none of them said get out of iraq and afghanistan. but they want to cut...

cut what?

the same things they always want to cut so they can starve government until they can drown it in a bathtub.

notice also that not a single one said... raise income tax a couple of percentage points on people earning over a half million or even a million... or said tax estates over 6 million dollars.

this isn't about fiscal responsibility... it's about the 'ihategovernment' contingent.

Idealogues? Our social engineering in the name of do goodism, brought to us mainly by dems, has brought us to the precipice of disaster. It ain't just one idea that brought us to this carnival. You can throw in military spending too if you want but that's not the ultimate problem. They're both destroying us.

social engineering in the name of do-goodism??? only if by that you mean we don't have a dickensian/randian nightmare of a society. the middle class doesn't exist without regulation.

you just oppose it for philosophical reasons.

and how can you say military spending isn't THE problem after looking at the percentage of our budget that goes to the military.

the problem was cutting our revenues AT THE SAME TIME as running two wars.

 

[Jackson]

I'll say this again.

The first step to this problem is cutting traumatically defense spending, closing bases overseas in Europe and Asia, and scaling back USAID. You want the world to invest in America again? You want to show the World that we are actually serious about our debt obligations?

That is the best way of showing them that we are.

The world believes that America is interested in doing nothing but building this huge unsustainable empire and that we are clearly declining to the point where it is becoming obvious that we can no longer afford to do so.

This step will show them otherwise (unless that actually is what our politicians are bent on doing and in that case this post means nothing).

After we stop trying to police the world, we can gain enough confidence to make gradual and serious domestic spending cuts without harming US tax payers. We can begin the process of privatizing social security and ending the prohibition of drugs. We can also gradually eliminate corporate welfare. Following a plan like this we can cut the budget 2% every year until we've cut it by atleast 40%. I mean it's not that hard, it just takes REAL critical thinking. You know the kind that many other countries that have rising economies have, and we just seem to not have at all.

Thats a good debate for the congress to have. Problem is..they won't have it.

And shutting down the government, as the Republicans want to do..is not that debate.

Sallow, the Republicans don't want to shut down government. Catch up.

 

[Charles_Main]

No. Don't raise it. It's called a ceiling for a reason, we're not supposed to go through it.

I would love to see a nasty showdown on the Hill about this. It'll separate the men from the boys. We'll see understands it all and who's really serious about this.

The Sad truth is if they do not raise it, there will be big problems.

 

[Sallow]

No. Don't raise it. It's called a ceiling for a reason, we're not supposed to go through it.

I would love to see a nasty showdown on the Hill about this. It'll separate the men from the boys. We'll see understands it all and who's really serious about this.

The Sad truth is if they do not raise it, there will be big problems.

That was clear headed.

Grats.

 

[Jackson]

No. Don't raise it. It's called a ceiling for a reason, we're not supposed to go through it.

I would love to see a nasty showdown on the Hill about this. It'll separate the men from the boys. We'll see understands it all and who's really serious about this.

The Sad truth is if they do not raise it, there will be big problems.

That may be the truth. But raising it will not be easy. It will cost in terms of compromises. Perhaps Health Care Repeal....

 

[Sallow]

I'll say this again.

The first step to this problem is cutting traumatically defense spending, closing bases overseas in Europe and Asia, and scaling back USAID. You want the world to invest in America again? You want to show the World that we are actually serious about our debt obligations?

That is the best way of showing them that we are.

The world believes that America is interested in doing nothing but building this huge unsustainable empire and that we are clearly declining to the point where it is becoming obvious that we can no longer afford to do so.

This step will show them otherwise (unless that actually is what our politicians are bent on doing and in that case this post means nothing).

After we stop trying to police the world, we can gain enough confidence to make gradual and serious domestic spending cuts without harming US tax payers. We can begin the process of privatizing social security and ending the prohibition of drugs. We can also gradually eliminate corporate welfare. Following a plan like this we can cut the budget 2% every year until we've cut it by atleast 40%. I mean it's not that hard, it just takes REAL critical thinking. You know the kind that many other countries that have rising economies have, and we just seem to not have at all.

Thats a good debate for the congress to have. Problem is..they won't have it.

And shutting down the government, as the Republicans want to do..is not that debate.

Sallow, the Republicans don't want to shut down government. Catch up.

Not raising the Debt Ceiling will effectively shut down government.

This is exactly what happened in the 90's under Newt. Except then..there were no wars.

 

[LordBrownTrout]

of course, it's ridiclous. idealogues often refuse to look at ramifications.

and notice, none of them said get out of iraq and afghanistan. but they want to cut...

cut what?

the same things they always want to cut so they can starve government until they can drown it in a bathtub.

notice also that not a single one said... raise income tax a couple of percentage points on people earning over a half million or even a million... or said tax estates over 6 million dollars.

this isn't about fiscal responsibility... it's about the 'ihategovernment' contingent.

Idealogues? Our social engineering in the name of do goodism, brought to us mainly by dems, has brought us to the precipice of disaster. It ain't just one idea that brought us to this carnival. You can throw in military spending too if you want but that's not the ultimate problem. They're both destroying us.

social engineering in the name of do-goodism??? only if by that you mean we don't have a dickensian/randian nightmare of a society. the middle class doesn't exist without regulation.

you just oppose it for philosophical reasons.

and how can you say military spending isn't THE problem after looking at the percentage of our budget that goes to the military.

the problem was cutting our revenues AT THE SAME TIME as running two wars.

So, in essence, you're saying that the middle class has to thank the government? So, if it weren't for the government we would be helpless and could not even eke out a subsistence. My, you have little faith in your neighbors, jillian. Anyway, I don't think we'll ever agree on this..

On the military, I didn't say that wasn't a problem. It is, along with our nanny state. Why can't you see that? Or, maybe you do. I know you're smart as hell.

 

[Jackson]

Thats a good debate for the congress to have. Problem is..they won't have it.

And shutting down the government, as the Republicans want to do..is not that debate.

Sallow, the Republicans don't want to shut down government. Catch up.

Not raising the Debt Ceiling will effectively shut down government.

This is exactly what happened in the 90's under Newt. Except then..there were no wars.

We have until May to draw down the deficit. It just came out from Geithners office.

 

[uptownlivin90]

I'll say this again.

The first step to this problem is cutting traumatically defense spending, closing bases overseas in Europe and Asia, and scaling back USAID. You want the world to invest in America again? You want to show the World that we are actually serious about our debt obligations?

That is the best way of showing them that we are.

The world believes that America is interested in doing nothing but building this huge unsustainable empire and that we are clearly declining to the point where it is becoming obvious that we can no longer afford to do so.

This step will show them otherwise (unless that actually is what our politicians are bent on doing and in that case this post means nothing).

After we stop trying to police the world, we can gain enough confidence to make gradual and serious domestic spending cuts without harming US tax payers. We can begin the process of privatizing social security and ending the prohibition of drugs. We can also gradually eliminate corporate welfare. Following a plan like this we can cut the budget 2% every year until we've cut it by atleast 40%. I mean it's not that hard, it just takes REAL critical thinking. You know the kind that many other countries that have rising economies have, and we just seem to not have at all.

Thats a good debate for the congress to have. Problem is..they won't have it.

And shutting down the government, as the Republicans want to do..is not that debate.

The Dems don't want it either. How many democratic congressmen do you know of that want to close bases in Europe and Asia? How many are willing to have a discussion about real social security reform? How about ending bailouts? Cutting back entitlement programs? It takes people getting used to the fact that America can't live high on the hog and damn more. We just don't have the money.

 

[Wry Catcher]

I'll say this again.

The first step to this problem is cutting traumatically defense spending, closing bases overseas in Europe and Asia, and scaling back USAID. You want the world to invest in America again? You want to show the World that we are actually serious about our debt obligations?

That is the best way of showing them that we are.

The world believes that America is interested in doing nothing but building this huge unsustainable empire and that we are clearly declining to the point where it is becoming obvious that we can no longer afford to do so.

This step will show them otherwise (unless that actually is what our politicians are bent on doing and in that case this post means nothing).

After we stop trying to police the world, we can gain enough confidence to make gradual and serious domestic spending cuts without harming US tax payers. We can begin the process of privatizing social security and ending the prohibition of drugs. We can also gradually eliminate corporate welfare. Following a plan like this we can cut the budget 2% every year until we've cut it by atleast 40%. I mean it's not that hard, it just takes REAL critical thinking. You know the kind that many other countries that have rising economies have, and we just seem to not have at all.

Thats a good debate for the congress to have. Problem is..they won't have it.

And shutting down the government, as the Republicans want to do..is not that debate.

The Dems don't want it either. How many democratic congressmen do you know of that want to close bases in Europe and Asia? How many are willing to have a discussion about real social security reform? How about ending bailouts? Cutting back entitlement programs? It takes people getting used to the fact that America can't live high on the hog and damn more. We just don't have the money.

We had money, once. Where did it go and why?

 

[jillian]

We had money, once. Where did it go and why?

a lot happened. the economy crashed and unemployment went up which cut revenues. but that was on top of running two wars while cutting taxes for the first time in history.

now they refuse to restore taxes and want to use the deficit as a reason to destroy the new deal programs that they've hated since their inception.

 

[Skull Pilot]

So, in essence, you're saying that the middle class has to thank the government? .

Well according to Hacky Reid. Americans love government

[youtube]gu9YKTbRFzg[/youtube]

Just which Americans is he talking about?

 

[Truthmatters]

I'll say this again.

The first step to this problem is cutting traumatically defense spending, closing bases overseas in Europe and Asia, and scaling back USAID. You want the world to invest in America again? You want to show the World that we are actually serious about our debt obligations?

That is the best way of showing them that we are.

The world believes that America is interested in doing nothing but building this huge unsustainable empire and that we are clearly declining to the point where it is becoming obvious that we can no longer afford to do so.

This step will show them otherwise (unless that actually is what our politicians are bent on doing and in that case this post means nothing).

After we stop trying to police the world, we can gain enough confidence to make gradual and serious domestic spending cuts without harming US tax payers. We can begin the process of privatizing social security and ending the prohibition of drugs. We can also gradually eliminate corporate welfare. Following a plan like this we can cut the budget 2% every year until we've cut it by atleast 40%. I mean it's not that hard, it just takes REAL critical thinking. You know the kind that many other countries that have rising economies have, and we just seem to not have at all.

Thats a good debate for the congress to have. Problem is..they won't have it.

And shutting down the government, as the Republicans want to do..is not that debate.

Sallow, the Republicans don't want to shut down government. Catch up.

that is not what Grover Norquist said

 

[Skull Pilot]

I for one would love to see the government shut down. Maybe then people would realize they don't need the government as much as they've been led to believe .

 

[Sallow]

No. Don't raise it. It's called a ceiling for a reason, we're not supposed to go through it.

I would love to see a nasty showdown on the Hill about this. It'll separate the men from the boys. We'll see understands it all and who's really serious about this.

The Sad truth is if they do not raise it, there will be big problems.

That may be the truth. But raising it will not be easy. It will cost in terms of compromises. Perhaps Health Care Repeal....

Yeah..right.

They closed down government last time over Medicare.

Didn't work then..won't work now.

 

[Sallow]

I for one would love to see the government shut down. Maybe then people would realize they don't need the government as much as they've been led to believe .

That ain't what happened the last time.

 

[Sallow]

So, in essence, you're saying that the middle class has to thank the government? .

Well according to Hacky Reid. Americans love government

[youtube]gu9YKTbRFzg[/youtube]

Just which Americans is he talking about?

All of them.