Sick and tired of US debate on raising the min. wage.

[dblack]

So, anyone want to tackle this one: Why the delay? If the raise would cause no harm, why not go for it all now? Why should the poor people (who will supposedly benefit) have to wait?

Well that's pretty obvious if you think about it, Dblack! Liberals think they can hide the negative effects of what they're doing if they string it out a little. If poor people were losing jobs in prodigious numbers right after the raise in minimum wage took effect then even the dumb ones like Winger and Daniel might grasp that it's bad policy!

I know. Wonder if they'll ever admit it.

 

[danielpalos]

Not an excuse after you have frozen it for 12 years.

Congress has not done its job in maintaining the minimum wage. Time to take it away from them and give automatic cost of living adjustments like they do with Social Security

Social Security gets a 2 percent increase, min wage should increase at the same rate

Right wingers can't explain why the minimum wage stagnated for around a decade without Big Government nanny-State intervention if Capitalism is supposed to be so wonderful.

 

[danielpalos]

Workers pay increased after that tax cut because the economy was so strong! They also had jobs with some of the lowest unemployment numbers we've ever seen! What you want to do is going to bring the economy to a halt and see unemployment numbers stay lousy for years! That's what we're going to see now with this ill thought out increase!

On December 22, 2017, President Donald Trump signed into law the so-called Tax Cuts and Jobs Act (TCJA), a $1.9 trillion tax bill favoring corporations and wealthy Americans. At its heart is a large cut in the corporate tax rate. “Corporations are literally going wild over this,” Trump said upon signing the bill. He predicted that the corporate tax cut would cause a boom in business investment and that factories are “not going to be abandoned any longer.” His White House, meanwhile, estimated that the corporate tax cuts would trickle down to workers in the form of a $4,000 annual raise.

Two years later, however, business investment is actually declining. Factory closings and mass layoffs have not ended. Wage growth is tepid, despite the continuation of the economic expansion that began 10 years ago, and gross domestic product (GDP) growth is slowing and projected to revert to its long-term trend or below. Meanwhile, budget deficits are higher due to revenue losses—which have largely been triggered by the massive corporate tax cut at the heart of the TCJA. Nevertheless, earlier this month, acting White House Chief of Staff Mick Mulvaney told a gathering of CEOs that the Trump administration will seek to cut the corporate tax rate further if the president gains a second term in office.

The TCJA 2 Years Later: Corporations, Not Workers, Are the Big Winners

The massive corporate tax cut is costing more than expected and not trickling down to workers.

www.americanprogress.org

 

[dblack]

Not an excuse after you have frozen it for 12 years.

Congress has not done its job in maintaining the minimum wage. Time to take it away from them and give automatic cost of living adjustments like they do with Social Security

Social Security gets a 2 percent increase, min wage should increase at the same rate

Right wingers can't explain why the minimum wage stagnated for around a decade without Big Government nanny-State intervention if Capitalism is supposed to be so wonderful.

Because minimum wage is delusional at its core, and not everyone is as stupid as you.

 

[danielpalos]

Because that turns businesses into welfare distribution centers. If society deems it important and correct to support everyone, society needs to collect the taxes and send the checks. And I know what you mean by Labor. You don't mean just those working or wanting to work.

Not sure I follow your line of reasoning. Increasing wages for labor is not even remotely similar to means tested welfare. Why do you have a problem paying labor enough so they won't need any social services at all, when it would mean a lower tax burden by reducing the Cost of Government and the need for Big Government nanny-Statism, which right wingers allege to be in favor of.

 

[Polishprince]

Show me where they've EVER raised it this much, Winger!
You are right about the market compensating. It's why you're seeing so many self serve kiosks in places like fast food restaurants and the grocery store. That's the market getting itself ready for higher labor costs.

That is going to happen anyway simply because automation costs are becoming more affordable. And, it makes it easier to help mitigate the effects of any pandemic.

Only a small percentage of those affected adversely by the pandemic are of working age at all.

The vast majority of those who have croaked have been of very advanced years or otherwise very sick. My Irish friend who died of Corona was only 68 but was also suffering sugar diabetes, emphysema, severely infected feet, COPD as well as Stage 4 Liver Cancer. He wasn't big on working before he came down sick, he sure the hell wasn't going to work for min wage.

 

[BlackSand]

Tiger says raising the minimum wage to 15 an hour will help businesses grow

In eleven years they have been able to grow unhindered now it is time for labor to grow.

President Obama had both House of Congress at one point, and did nothing to increase the minimum wage.
Let's you know how serious they were about screwing the rich and biting the hand that feeds them.

.

 

[danielpalos]

In my opinion, the minimum wage should be high enough so Labor does not need Big Government nanny-Statism ...
Labor does not need Big Government nanny-Statism. No one does.

Yet, corporate welfare is alive and well and has even paid multimillion dollar bonuses. Why is it that right wingers only complain about welfare for the Poor but not the Rich?

 

[Grumblenuts]

Minimum wage is a horseshit issue. But, it stirs up the dummies and gives government more power - so it's irresistible to Democrats.

It is a horseshit issue
It should have been raised 10 years ago and future raises should be tied to inflation

You know why it wasn't? Because politicians are afraid of getting voted out of office for fucking up the economy.

Raising minimum wage does not fuk up the economy
Cutting corporate taxes by 40 percent did

Why would companies being able to investment more money into the economy... cause a problem in the economy? That makes no logical sense.

Further, I pretty sure I heard you in the past say that corporations were off shoring jobs out of the country, because labor is cheaper.......... now you are suggesting that increasing the cost of labor could not possibly harm the economy.

Do you not see those two claims are mutually exclusive?

Only those companies did not use the 40 percent tax cut to invest in the economy, they bought back stock

Guess what? The minimum wage worker will invest almost all of that $15 into the economy

And how will the Minimum wage worker that loses his or her job invest the $0 that they will then be making? You don't care about THOSE people though...do you, Winger? The people with few job skills? The young people just starting out? Those are the people that will really be affected by this. You don't give a crap about them though...do you?

I‘m in my 60s and have heard that same “if we raise minimum wage, people will lose their job “ every time they raised the wage. didn’t happen
Market compensates

Show me where they've EVER raised it this much, Winger!
You are right about the market compensating. It's why you're seeing so many self serve kiosks in places like fast food restaurants and the grocery store. That's the market getting itself ready for higher labor costs.

Not an excuse after you have frozen it for 12 years.

Congress has not done its job in maintaining the minimum wage. Time to take it away from them and give automatic cost of living adjustments like they do with Social Security

Social Security gets a 2 percent increase, min wage should increase at the same rate

You act as if there is nowhere a MW can earn more than the current MW, ever. Many states and cities have long surpassed the current federal MW, thus rendering it pretty much moot. Perhaps that's your real problem with the situation, you want the federal government controlling the job market.

A federal "right to work" for a living wage.. jobs creating security for all who want to work.. Yeah, that's what we should have insisted upon from our govt since day one..

You act as if you want West Bumfuck, AR controlling the job market.

 

[Rambunctious]

Raise it...Go Ahead.....the sooner Biden ruins the job market and brings on another recession the sooner we can expose his destructive ideology....and get America back on the road to MingAGA!!!!

Why would higher paid labor creating more demand and generating more tax revenue cause a recession? Right wingers complained about the weak recovery of the previous democratic administration (due republicans failing to support all of the shovel ready jobs that would have made a difference.)

Because the guy that has 15 people on his payroll will have to let 4 of them go.....so what will happen is the big guy chain shops will survive and small start up companies will disappear creating thousands of empty store fronts just like we saw in the Obama/Biden first term....

 

[Rambunctious]

In my opinion, the minimum wage should be high enough so Labor does not need Big Government nanny-Statism ...
Labor does not need Big Government nanny-Statism. No one does.

Yet, corporate welfare is alive and well and has even paid multimillion dollar bonuses. Why is it that right wingers only complain about welfare for the Poor but not the Rich?

Corporate welfare?...just who do you think a higher min wage hurts?...it hurts the independent little guy....the big guy will find a go around after all his smaller up and coming competition is gone....and they will turn and donate to the people that made it possible...the dems and progs....

 

[Polishprince]

Minimum wage is a horseshit issue. But, it stirs up the dummies and gives government more power - so it's irresistible to Democrats.

It is a horseshit issue
It should have been raised 10 years ago and future raises should be tied to inflation

You know why it wasn't? Because politicians are afraid of getting voted out of office for fucking up the economy.

Raising minimum wage does not fuk up the economy
Cutting corporate taxes by 40 percent did

Why would companies being able to investment more money into the economy... cause a problem in the economy? That makes no logical sense.

Further, I pretty sure I heard you in the past say that corporations were off shoring jobs out of the country, because labor is cheaper.......... now you are suggesting that increasing the cost of labor could not possibly harm the economy.

Do you not see those two claims are mutually exclusive?

Only those companies did not use the 40 percent tax cut to invest in the economy, they bought back stock

Guess what? The minimum wage worker will invest almost all of that $15 into the economy

And how will the Minimum wage worker that loses his or her job invest the $0 that they will then be making? You don't care about THOSE people though...do you, Winger? The people with few job skills? The young people just starting out? Those are the people that will really be affected by this. You don't give a crap about them though...do you?

I‘m in my 60s and have heard that same “if we raise minimum wage, people will lose their job “ every time they raised the wage. didn’t happen
Market compensates

Show me where they've EVER raised it this much, Winger!
You are right about the market compensating. It's why you're seeing so many self serve kiosks in places like fast food restaurants and the grocery store. That's the market getting itself ready for higher labor costs.

Not an excuse after you have frozen it for 12 years.

Congress has not done its job in maintaining the minimum wage. Time to take it away from them and give automatic cost of living adjustments like they do with Social Security

Social Security gets a 2 percent increase, min wage should increase at the same rate

You act as if there is nowhere a MW can earn more than the current MW, ever. Many states and cities have long surpassed the current federal MW, thus rendering it pretty much moot. Perhaps that's your real problem with the situation, you want the federal government controlling the job market.

A federal "right to work" for a living wage.. jobs creating security for all who want to work.. Yeah, that's what we should have insisted upon from our govt since day one..

You act as if you want West Bumfuck, AR controlling the job market.

I was under the impression that West Bumfuck was in Egypt, not Arkansas.

However, I WOULD rather have common Americans living in flyover country controlling the job market instead of the hot shot elite in Washington DC. After all, this is where the real work of America gets done.

 

[Wyatt earp]

Minimum wage is a horseshit issue. But, it stirs up the dummies and gives government more power - so it's irresistible to Democrats.

It is a horseshit issue
It should have been raised 10 years ago and future raises should be tied to inflation

You know why it wasn't? Because politicians are afraid of getting voted out of office for fucking up the economy.

Raising minimum wage does not fuk up the economy
Cutting corporate taxes by 40 percent did

Why would companies being able to investment more money into the economy... cause a problem in the economy? That makes no logical sense.

Further, I pretty sure I heard you in the past say that corporations were off shoring jobs out of the country, because labor is cheaper.......... now you are suggesting that increasing the cost of labor could not possibly harm the economy.

Do you not see those two claims are mutually exclusive?

Only those companies did not use the 40 percent tax cut to invest in the economy, they bought back stock

Guess what? The minimum wage worker will invest almost all of that $15 into the economy

To pay more for the same

 

[Grumblenuts]

I‘m in my 60s and have heard that same “if we raise minimum wage, people will lose their job “ every time they raised the wage. didn’t happen

You're lying. Every time they raise the minimum wage, some minimum wage workers lose their jobs.

And Congress has known that - which is why they've never raised it a significant amount.

But still - that misses the point. It's obvious to anyone with a basic grasp of economics that price and wage controls harm the economy. But I continue to see this from an individual rights perspective. If someone wants to take job, for a wage that is below rightwinger's standards, why should that be illegal? Maybe they get something out of the job besides a paycheck - who knows. Point is, it's none of our business what someone else makes. And none fo the government's.

Go baby! Race to the bottom!

Yep. And if someone else wants to "race to the bottom", where do you get off bullying them???

That's really what this is all about. It has absolutely nothing to do with helping the poor. In fact, it fucks the poorest of the poor by taking away their ability to compete. Minimum wage is a union inspired attempt to thwart competition in the labor market.

So first cut the "mythical creature" out then double down on it, why don't ya? Here's a clue, genius.. Pay and take cash then like everyone else. Doh! What a maroon!

 

[Rambunctious]

Mega global corporations love costly government edicts like a higher wages and costly green energy regulations because they know that they can afford it and their competition can not....
That's why UPS and FedEx went along with the expensive regulations on trucks....five smaller shipping companies went under....the big guys survive....and now its turning into something that smells a lot like fascism.....where corporations team up with government to crush our freedom and choices in life....

 

[Wyatt earp]

Minimum wage is a horseshit issue. But, it stirs up the dummies and gives government more power - so it's irresistible to Democrats.

It is a horseshit issue
It should have been raised 10 years ago and future raises should be tied to inflation

You know why it wasn't? Because politicians are afraid of getting voted out of office for fucking up the economy.

Raising minimum wage does not fuk up the economy
Cutting corporate taxes by 40 percent did

Why would companies being able to investment more money into the economy... cause a problem in the economy? That makes no logical sense.

Further, I pretty sure I heard you in the past say that corporations were off shoring jobs out of the country, because labor is cheaper.......... now you are suggesting that increasing the cost of labor could not possibly harm the economy.

Do you not see those two claims are mutually exclusive?

Only those companies did not use the 40 percent tax cut to invest in the economy, they bought back stock

Guess what? The minimum wage worker will invest almost all of that $15 into the economy

And how will the Minimum wage worker that loses his or her job invest the $0 that they will then be making? You don't care about THOSE people though...do you, Winger? The people with few job skills? The young people just starting out? Those are the people that will really be affected by this. You don't give a crap about them though...do you?

I‘m in my 60s and have heard that same “if we raise minimum wage, people will lose their job “ every time they raised the wage. didn’t happen
Market compensates

Liar we just had a thread on kroger shutting down two stores

 

[Wyatt earp]

LOL - because it's always been ridiculously low, dumbass. You know, like you've been saying throughout this thread.

I worked minimum wage for five years making $2.10 to $2.35
It wasn‘t ridiculously low. I was able to pay my college tuition working just three months a year.

$7.25 is ridiculously low. it doesn’t approach paying a kids tuition. They have to make up the difference by borrowing money

The price of Tuition has gotten out of hand, not the minimum wage.

The rise in tuition far exceeds the increase in prices for Cadillacs , booze, TV sets, etc.

Not really
Lets look at cars. Min wage workers want to buy a car.

When I made $2.10 an hour (1972) minimum wage, I could buy a new car on six months salary
At $7.25 it would take over a year today

How about gas for that car?
My $2.10 minimum wage would buy 7 gallons of gas
That $7.25 will only buy 3 today

It would take a $14.50 wage to get the buying power I had in 1972

And you think car prices won't go up?

 

[Andylusion]

Minimum wage is a horseshit issue. But, it stirs up the dummies and gives government more power - so it's irresistible to Democrats.

It is a horseshit issue
It should have been raised 10 years ago and future raises should be tied to inflation

You know why it wasn't? Because politicians are afraid of getting voted out of office for fucking up the economy.

Raising minimum wage does not fuk up the economy
Cutting corporate taxes by 40 percent did

Why would companies being able to investment more money into the economy... cause a problem in the economy? That makes no logical sense.

Further, I pretty sure I heard you in the past say that corporations were off shoring jobs out of the country, because labor is cheaper.......... now you are suggesting that increasing the cost of labor could not possibly harm the economy.

Do you not see those two claims are mutually exclusive?

Only those companies did not use the 40 percent tax cut to invest in the economy, they bought back stock

Guess what? The minimum wage worker will invest almost all of that $15 into the economy

They bought back stock with ALL the money for the last 3 years? All of it? All? Seriously? You think that?

Prove it.

Prove that every single company in the entire United States.... used every single dollar of their their tax cut for the past three years, to only do stock buy backs. Can you do that?

Because I can actually look at the numbers. So let's do some quick math, and test your theory.

So the gross pre-tax profits for Walmart in 2019 was $129 Billion.
Corporate tax rate fell from 35% to 21%. That's a difference of 14%.

14% of $129 Billion is $18 Billion dollars.

Walmart Stock Buybacks (Quarterly) Trends | YCharts

In depth view into Walmart Stock Buybacks (Quarterly) including historical data from 1972, charts and stats.

ycharts.com

For 2019, stock buy backs totaled $8 Billion..... *mic drop*.

So what did they do with the other $10 Billion? They invested it, opened new stores, built new distribution centers, renovated existing stores, gave out promotions and pay increases, and so on, and so on, and so on.

So... with one single example, from one single company, I hereby declare your claims conclusively proven false.

FURTHER...........

Even if, all $18 Billion in reduced taxes, went to stock buy backs... where do you think that money goes? Who owns Walmart stock? Employees.... 401Ks and IRAs.... Pension funds.... non-profits.... governments ironically... and life insurance annuities.

What are those people going to do with the money? (with the exception of governments that give out kick backs to political supporters...) Invest it in the economy. Whether workers get the money, one way, or the other way, doesn't matter. Either way the money is going to grow the economy, where if it is given to government it would not.

MOREOVER........

Your claim ridiculously implies that somehow this would not have happened without the Corporate tax cut.

This is factually false. Corporate buy backs are normal and necessary, and would happen with or without a tax cut.

Whether Walmart saved $18 Billion in taxes, or not, they still would have spent billions on billions buying back stock. How do I know this? Because they were buying back stock, long before the cut in the corporate tax rate.

Walmart Stock Buybacks (Quarterly) Trends | YCharts

In depth view into Walmart Stock Buybacks (Quarterly) including historical data from 1972, charts and stats.

ycharts.com

Walmart stock buy backs:

2013 - $8.75 Billion.
2010 - $13 Billion.

And you calculate how much in stock buy backs they did by year if you want.

The point remains that they used the corporate tax cut money, to pay for stock buy backs, is just flat out false. The buy backs would have happened, with or without the tax cuts.

The money saved on taxes was used for investing and growing the economy, because the buy backs would have happened with or without them.

Class dismissed.

 

[Grumblenuts]

Oh, now it is. Before it just.. but now.. suddenly..

 

[danielpalos]

I would ask you to support that, but I'm sure your head would explode...

Actually, I would like to thank you for asking.

...
Fast food workers make a minimum of $20 hourly in Denmark, while in the US, their average hourly wage is $8.90, according to the Times report.
...
But "In interviews, Danish employees of McDonald’s, Burger King and Starbucks said that even though Denmark had one of the world’s highest costs of living — about 30% higher than in the United States — their $20 wage made life affordable," the Times' Liz Alderman and Steven Greenhouse write.
...
The Big Mac costs about $4.80 in the US and $5.60 in Denmark, according to the Times report....

Denmark McDonald's Workers Get Paid Vastly Higher Wages

McDonald's has warned that wage increases in the U.S. would force franchisees to raise menu prices.

www.businessinsider.com

Thus, for an eighty cent increase in price (six percent price inflation) those workers are getting a twenty dollar an hour minimum wage.