Social Security and health care

[billyerock1991]

One of the questions I have for people who advocate for a single payer system is, how will it be different from Social Security? With Social Security, government steals from the pot with impunity. In addition, Social Security is not guaranteed to anyone. If there is no money in the pot then there is no money. Government has zero obligation to you. Likewise, as we see with veterans in the VA, if you are too sick and expensive, government has no obligation to you. In fact, government run Medicare turns more people down health care related issues that private insurance currently.

right now all the money that the government has used is oblige to repay so theres a big chink there...

as for the VA ...each year the the VA has asked for more money done to the increase numbers of vets coming into the va what has the republicans done top help our vets the have filibustered every bill that has come to congress with and in crease ... no doe no go its that simple ... you republicans love to quote reagans quote I'm the government and I'm here to help ... how about this, "I from the republican party and I don't feel you have a right to get hearth care just because you fought for our country" ... I wonder how happy they would be

 

[Wilbur Right]

Here is data that actually tracks poverty :

I read your link. Interesting info. What was your point about posting it?

 

[bripat9643]

One of the questions I have for people who advocate for a single payer system is, how will it be different from Social Security? With Social Security, government steals from the pot with impunity. In addition, Social Security is not guaranteed to anyone. If there is no money in the pot then there is no money. Government has zero obligation to you. Likewise, as we see with veterans in the VA, if you are too sick and expensive, government has no obligation to you. In fact, government run Medicare turns more people down health care related issues that private insurance currently.

This is a major problem.

People paying in and then having no security based on what elected govts, which change every 2 years, decide to do with the money.

What is the point of a government? Many people don't seem to see it as the organization that should simply make life better for citizens.
Housing, for example, should be a home, not an investment. However govts all over seem to use the housing market as a tool for making money, especially for rich people with spare cash, who can buy and sell when it suits them.
A retirement fund should be just that. People putting in money and the money being assured to them when they come out of it. Private companies are too volatile for something so long term, you put money in, the company goes broke and takes your money with them. Only a govt can really have the security, but govts don't bother with that. Elections are short term-ism, every 2 or 4 or 6 years they're trying to wow you with something or other, and show you what they did in the last term in order to prove it.

The problem is, there is no one above government to hold them accountable. That is why it is scary having government take over everything.

The way it was suppose to work is, the government was to be limited to play referee so that private institutions could be held accountable.

And before you feed me the BS that government is held accountable by the voters, have you seen government lately? Congress has had an approval rating of about 10% for decades.

Actually the point I was making was the private companies aren't good, and govt isn't good either.

As for the govt being held accountable by the voters, in the US this certainly is not the case. In other countries it is more so the case.

The point being that everything is about short term-ism, but a retirement fund is a long term investment.

Please. The longest term for the government is until the next election. No politician gives a damn about what happens after that.

 

[bripat9643]

Prove that wouldn't have happened without SS.

 

[JoeTheEconomist]

Here is data that actually tracks poverty :

I read your link. Interesting info. What was your point about posting it?

There are three or four posts here related to poverty in the elderly. All of them point to the same flawed data. The data is flawed - US Census says so. The data isn't an accurate measure of poverty. I was trying to give the people who assert that SS is a safety-net counter data.

 

[JoeTheEconomist]

right now all the money that the government has used is oblige to repay so theres a big chink there...

If you are talking about the SS trust fund it is about a dime of solution for every dollar of problem. It isn't not a big chunk.

 

[Rustic]

One of the questions I have for people who advocate for a single payer system is, how will it be different from Social Security? With Social Security, government steals from the pot with impunity. In addition, Social Security is not guaranteed to anyone. If there is no money in the pot then there is no money. Government has zero obligation to you. Likewise, as we see with veterans in the VA, if you are too sick and expensive, government has no obligation to you. In fact, government run Medicare turns more people down health care related issues that private insurance currently.

It's all legalized extortion, by the federal government

 

[Wilbur Right]

was trying to give the people who assert that SS is a safety-net counter data.

The article talked a lot about medians. I did not read where it said that there are no senior citizens who depend on SSI to keep them from poverty.

Did you see the article say that?

 

[JoeTheEconomist]

was trying to give the people who assert that SS is a safety-net counter data.

The article talked a lot about medians. I did not read where it said that there are no senior citizens who depend on SSI to keep them from poverty.

Did you see the article say that?

The article isn't about Social Security. It is about poverty in the elderly. The data actually tracks poverty which is net-worth, rather than income. Income of retirees where we exclude most of their income is going to show that virtually all seniors are in poverty.

 

[Wilbur Right]

The article isn't about Social Security. It is about poverty in the elderly. The data actually tracks poverty which is net-worth, rather than income. Income of retirees where we exclude most of their income is going to show that virtually all seniors are in poverty.

I re read the article. It definitely discusses income.

But what is your point? Are you mad that there are less older people living in poverty or what?

 

[JoeTheEconomist]

The article isn't about Social Security. It is about poverty in the elderly. The data actually tracks poverty which is net-worth, rather than income. Income of retirees where we exclude most of their income is going to show that virtually all seniors are in poverty.

I re read the article. It definitely discusses income.

But what is your point? Are you mad that there are less older people living in poverty or what?

The point is that SS doesn't lift 23 million people out of poverty. It is a meme, that is accepted out of repetition rather than fact or even common sense.

 

[Wilbur Right]

The point is that SS doesn't lift 23 million people out of poverty. It is a meme, that is accepted out of repetition rather than fact or even common sense.

What is the correct number? Or are you contending that SSI lifts no one out of poverty?

My personal experience would say that none would be incorrect.

So what do you think is the correct number?

 

[dblack]

What is the point of a government? Many people don't seem to see it as the organization that should simply make life better for citizens.

This is the question we really need to answer - and come to some consensus on - as a nation. Currently we're caught between two, perhaps more, mutually incompatible answers.

 

[JoeTheEconomist]

The point is that SS doesn't lift 23 million people out of poverty. It is a meme, that is accepted out of repetition rather than fact or even common sense.

What is the correct number? Or are you contending that SSI lifts no one out of poverty?

My personal experience would say that none would be incorrect.

So what do you think is the correct number?

No one knows. The fact is that the SSA knows about the problem with the data, and says that the estimate is a best guess which has known problems. If your question was important to anyone, the SSA would get the data. It isn't interested in being right. It is a matter of having something that says SS lifts people out of poverty. The exact numbers aren't terribly important.

If anyone cared about this data, you would see it separated by age. SS is supposed to supplement other retirement savings. Over the course of a longer life say 90, people burn-down that other savings. Every year, people in theory become more dependent on SS. My guess is that if you look at dependence upon SS for those 85+ versus the elderly in general you would see a massive shift - one that no one is talking about.

 

[Maryland Patriot]

The point is that SS doesn't lift 23 million people out of poverty. It is a meme, that is accepted out of repetition rather than fact or even common sense.

What is the correct number? Or are you contending that SSI lifts no one out of poverty?

My personal experience would say that none would be incorrect.

So what do you think is the correct number?

No one knows. The fact is that the SSA knows about the problem with the data, and says that the estimate is a best guess which has known problems. If your question was important to anyone, the SSA would get the data. It isn't interested in being right. It is a matter of having something that says SS lifts people out of poverty. The exact numbers aren't terribly important.

If anyone cared about this data, you would see it separated by age. SS is supposed to supplement other retirement savings. Over the course of a longer life say 90, people burn-down that other savings. Every year, people in theory become more dependent on SS. My guess is that if you look at dependence upon SS for those 85+ versus the elderly in general you would see a massive shift - one that no one is talking about.

obamacare will take care of that over 85 money issue and the SS funding issue.
refuse care to those over 60 and they die off before they reach the age of retirement. No need to keep them around if they are taking and not giving.

Good plan.

 

[francoHFW]

You ought to read the data that you are citing rather than posting random charts. The data is based on US Census surveys that have been documented to overstate poverty in the elderly. Census says that the surveys understate all non-wage income. It excludes a primary source of a retiree's income. As it is, changing the order of questions, not adding new ones, increased reported retirement income five fold.

Link? lol

 

[francoHFW]

SS and ACA are working great, what isn't working are Pub pander to the rich that are making the the nonrich and the country fall apart.

After 30 years of Voodoo: worst min. wage, work conditions, illegal work safeguards, vacations, work week, college costs, rich/poor gap, upward social mobility, % homeless and in prison EVAH, and in the modern world!! And you complain about the victims? Are you an idiot or an A-hole?
Pubs have blocked EVERYTHING since 2/4/2010- don't be duped...again. Stimulus worked-ran out in 2010.

 

[francoHFW]

Wonder why we have an economic slowdown thanks to lack of consumer demand...The New BS GOP is a disgrace, dupes.

 

[francoHFW]

Prove that wouldn't have happened without SS.

Social Security Administration: Social Security Basic Facts
Social Security is the major source of income for most of the elderly.

• Nine out of ten individuals age 65 and older receive Social Security benefits.
• Social Security benefits represent about 39% of the income of the elderly.
• Among elderly Social Security beneficiaries, 53% of married couples and 74% of unmarried persons receive 50% or more of their income from Social Security.
• Among elderly Social Security beneficiaries, 22% of married couples and about 47% of unmarried persons rely on Social Security for 90% or more of their income.

 

[JoeTheEconomist]

Prove that wouldn't have happened without SS.

Social Security Administration: Social Security Basic Facts
Social Security is the major source of income for most of the elderly.

• Nine out of ten individuals age 65 and older receive Social Security benefits.
• Social Security benefits represent about 39% of the income of the elderly.
• Among elderly Social Security beneficiaries, 53% of married couples and 74% of unmarried persons receive 50% or more of their income from Social Security.
• Among elderly Social Security beneficiaries, 22% of married couples and about 47% of unmarried persons rely on Social Security for 90% or more of their income.

And if you look through your own source you find a link : Income of the Population 55 or Older, 2012 - About This Report

"A recent paper by Miller and Schieber (2014) called into question the adequacy of retirement income measures in the CPS.3 Specifically, the authors state that the CPS undercounts retirement income from various sources including, defined contribution plans and traditional pensions. Their analysis compares CPS estimates with more precise estimates obtained from federal tax records. Much of the undercounting the paper describes is due to the Census Bureau only including “regular payments” from retirement, survivor, and disability income in its definition of total money income. Most people do not choose to annuitize their pension accounts and instead make withdrawals from their pension accounts on their own. These withdrawals are not part of total money income, and data are not collected on withdrawals from pension accounts in the March Supplement to the Current Population Survey.4 Underreporting of income in the CPS has been documented in previous issues of this publication and written about in more detail by Anguelov, Iams, and Purcell (2012) and Czajka and Denmead (2012) among others.5 SSA is investigating alternative data sources to address the issue in future editions. Nevertheless, CPS data is currently the best option for timely, detailed information about the income sources and demographics of the population aged 55 or older."

So it represents 39% of what Census is calling income which we know is very different from actual income.