Sodom and Gomorrah

[Sky Dancer]

I think it was pretty much created with you in mind, Sky. If you quit frequenting it, it will die a natural death...

What do you mean? What was created with me in mind?

 

[logical4u]

Or you can just do what my creepy uncle did and give them a bunch of money, and they totally forgive all the pain you inflict on your family.

Heck, they even praised the trophy wife at the funeral while the orignal wife, (my aunt) was in the room. BURN!

I was done with these phonies 30 years ago.

Are you stating that all those that go to church are "phonies"?

Nope, just the people who run them.

Most of the people who go are "Dupes".

Happy to provide the clarification.

Clarification? Are you saying that the people that came to this country to practice their religion, freely, were dupes? The people that began this great nation's states: the Puritans, the Quakers, the Catholics, and other Christian denominations were all dupes and phonies? Are you saying that the people that seek to maintain that culture are "dupes"?

Oh tell us, wise one, what faith would "you" have us follow?

 

[logical4u]

Oh, I see. God couldn't stop those guys because they studied reallly hard to pull off the scheme. So this omnipotent being can be stymied by really hard study and work. Ahhhh, I get it now.

Or Iron Chariots.

"And the Lord was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron."
—Judges 1:19

So Studying really hard or getting yourself some Iron Chariots will stop God. Got it.

If some one raises their hand (or weapon) against another, are you suggesting the Lord stop them? Are you suggesting the Lord make us all march out to the fields together, work the fields for our food, eat the same thing, and lay down to sleep as a group? Or would you prefer He assign shifts? He gave us the ability to reason or free will. That means that we must live with the decisions (actions) we have made and how those decisions affect others.

I'm suggesting that if God really cares about good and evil, maybe he needs to do something about evil once in a while.

After all, the 9-11 terrorists really thought they were doing God's will. The same vengeful Abrahamic God that Jews and Christians worship.

Maybe the Lord wanted the hebrews to learn how to make iron chariots? A little girl once asked me why Marco Polo didn't take trucks when he went to trade with China. Maybe the Lord set us up to make automobiles centuries ago, but "free will" (better known as tyrants) interferred?

But that's not what the verse said. It said the lord was with the tribe of Judah, and he could drive out the inhabitants of the Mountain. This is something God wanted done. But he couldn't drive out the valley people because they had some of those awesome Iron Chariots.

Iron Chariots > God.

Maybe He is waiting for "us" to do something about the terrorists?

Didn't Pharoh's army have chariots? Didn't the Lord take those chariots out, along with the rest of the army?

 

[Sky Dancer]

Are you stating that all those that go to church are "phonies"?

Nope, just the people who run them.

Most of the people who go are "Dupes".

Happy to provide the clarification.

Clarification? Are you saying that the people that came to this country to practice their religion, freely, were dupes? The people that began this great nation's states: the Puritans, the Quakers, the Catholics, and other Christian denominations were all dupes and phonies? Are you saying that the people that seek to maintain that culture are "dupes"?

Oh tell us, wise one, what faith would "you" have us follow?

I don't think the Puritans were "dupes", but they were NOT friends of Native Americans.

Not all the people who "began this great nation" were religious. Some of the Founding Fathers were not.

 

[koshergrl]

Oh god, here we go again.

 

[JoeB131]

Are you stating that all those that go to church are "phonies"?

Nope, just the people who run them.

Most of the people who go are "Dupes".

Happy to provide the clarification.

Clarification? Are you saying that the people that came to this country to practice their religion, freely, were dupes? The people that began this great nation's states: the Puritans, the Quakers, the Catholics, and other Christian denominations were all dupes and phonies? Are you saying that the people that seek to maintain that culture are "dupes"?

Oh tell us, wise one, what faith would "you" have us follow?

Yes, I think these people were all dupes. They all bought into the preaching of Con Men who promised them all sorts of good things to less smart people, (after they die, of course) if they just give up their free will and do what they say.

That's what religion is, at the end of the day. Kneel, pray to the saints, wear this magic underwear, let them have sex with your teenage daughter, whatever. And the dupes go along with it.

You talk about the people who fled here as being noble, but the fact is, once they got here, they slaughtered the "heathen" native Americans and hanged each other for being 'witches'.

I would have you follow no faith, but make decisions based on a simple moral code. Does what I do harm someone? If no, then there's nothing wrong with it. If yes, is there an overriding rational reason to cause harm? If the the answer is yes to the first question and no to the second, then it's immoral.

I think at some basis, there's some of that in most religions, until they get full of themselves, and find all sorts of reasons why God would have them answer "yes" to the second question.

Hense, getting back to the OP, why stories like Genesis 19 are so horrible. They use scripture to otherwise justify terrible acts, like homophobia.

 

[Gadawg73]

I've also been Lutheran and Catholic and I've never heard it explained that way. As a matter of fact I've never heard any preaching or any sermon on being gay at all. This story is about the evil of lust, lust comes in many forms, and lust without love, the search for only physical pleasure without engagement of the heart, is considered a sin.

The Lutheran church I now go to is an accepting and open church. We treat gays and lesbians the way God wants us to.
If you have never heard any preaching or sermon in a church on being gay then you have never been south or west of New Jersey or east of Nevada.
I could show you 107 within 20 miles of where I live.
But I am pleased to state that even the southern Baptists now acknowledge it as same sex attraction and that folks are born with it. Most of them have dropped the idiotic catch phrase "they learn it,it is a choice and they are not born with it" BS. They admit they are born with it but state the Bible says not to act on it. Not all of them but a lot and I know many that adamantly oppose it in their religous life but do not judge in their life in society.
That is probably you. I disagree but we each have our own religous beliefs. As long as folks get equal civil rights I could care less.

I'm in PA, and I haven't attended church in other areas that I've been so I can only speak for where I've been. But, I've also attended many different types of denominations and have never heard any gay bashing whatsoever. My sister is a member of a Lutheran church and they have a lesbian couple who have an adopted son as part of their congregation, their picture is even in the church congrestional book. The truly fundamental churches are far and few between. At the church that I attend now it's a mixed bag, some believe being gay is a choice, some believe it's during fetal development, but none condemn them or preach against it openly. There is no one who is without sin. I don't 'oppose' it personally or socially, it has nothing to do with me, so why would I?

Thanks for a great post.

 

[Foxfyre]

So Joe translates most of my defintiion of sin, i.e. that which harms ourselves or others either intentionally, accidentally, or inadvertently, to his definition of 'moral' or 'immoral'.

The question is then WHY is it moral or immoral? What makes it WRONG to harm ourselves or others? Why is it okay to kill say a chicken or cow for food, but not okay to kill another human being for food? What makes it wrong to steal? To lie? To commit adultery? To commit assault and battery on somebody we deem despicable?

Why do we don't consider it sin to be inhospitable to strangers when it was a most grevious sin at the time of Sodom and Gomorrah?

It is soooooo easy to say that Christians, Jews, etc. are delusional and they would be so much happier if there was no faith.

I think if there was no faith, this would be a pretty horrible world to live in.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Nope, just the people who run them.

Most of the people who go are "Dupes".

Happy to provide the clarification.

Clarification? Are you saying that the people that came to this country to practice their religion, freely, were dupes? The people that began this great nation's states: the Puritans, the Quakers, the Catholics, and other Christian denominations were all dupes and phonies? Are you saying that the people that seek to maintain that culture are "dupes"?

Oh tell us, wise one, what faith would "you" have us follow?

Yes, I think these people were all dupes. They all bought into the preaching of Con Men who promised them all sorts of good things to less smart people, (after they die, of course) if they just give up their free will and do what they say.

That's what religion is, at the end of the day. Kneel, pray to the saints, wear this magic underwear, let them have sex with your teenage daughter, whatever. And the dupes go along with it.

You talk about the people who fled here as being noble, but the fact is, once they got here, they slaughtered the "heathen" native Americans and hanged each other for being 'witches'.

I would have you follow no faith, but make decisions based on a simple moral code. Does what I do harm someone? If no, then there's nothing wrong with it. If yes, is there an overriding rational reason to cause harm? If the the answer is yes to the first question and no to the second, then it's immoral.

I think at some basis, there's some of that in most religions, until they get full of themselves, and find all sorts of reasons why God would have them answer "yes" to the second question.

Hense, getting back to the OP, why stories like Genesis 19 are so horrible. They use scripture to otherwise justify terrible acts, like homophobia.

Joe--

Sometimes people find a training for their minds and hearts in a faith tradition and it makes them better people. Others use their religion to become proud. They presume they are superior to others and they pity and look on down on those who aren't of THEIR faith.

Other people get confused and hurt by the religious training they received. The former residents of the Magdalene homes in Ireland are an example. Many of them are are spiritually ruined by the abuses of the Catholic Church.

You are correct that historically, INSTITUTIONAL religion harmed indigenous people in many cases. Being naive about religion, taking everything on faith without questioning, can really let some people with bright minds down. That doesn't make ALL religious adherents, "dupes". There are duplicitious preachers, priests and gurus, their followers are sometimes "duped", but that does not make them "dupes".

The story of Sodom and Gomorrah isn't "horrible". It's a wisdom teaching. Wisdom teachings aren't easily understood, and some take the story and don't apply it well.

I think many people hear read your posts and here your anger and frustration with religion and take it personally. I don't. I think your posts tell us that you long for truth and I trust you will find it.

 

[koshergrl]

If it weren't for organized religion, there would have been no Rennaissance.

 

[Sky Dancer]

If it weren't for organized religion, there would have been no Rennaissance.

Prove it.

 

[JoeB131]

If it weren't for organized religion, there would have been no Rennaissance.

If it weren't for Christianity, we never would have had the Dark Ages in order to NEED a Rennaissance.

The Dark Ages. The first "Faith-based Iniative". That book written by some pagan? BURN IT! it was written by a Pagan. It took 1000 years to get somewhere near where the ROmans were before the Christians mucked it up...

 

[JoeB131]

Joe--

Sometimes people find a training for their minds and hearts in a faith tradition and it makes them better people. Others use their religion to become proud. They presume they are superior to others and they pity and look on down on those who aren't of THEIR faith.

Other people get confused and hurt by the religious training they received. The former residents of the Magdalene homes in Ireland are an example. Many of them are are spiritually ruined by the abuses of the Catholic Church.

You are correct that historically, INSTITUTIONAL religion harmed indigenous people in many cases. Being naive about religion, taking everything on faith without questioning, can really let some people with bright minds down. That doesn't make ALL religious adherents, "dupes". There are duplicitious preachers, priests and gurus, their followers are sometimes "duped", but that does not make them "dupes".

The story of Sodom and Gomorrah isn't "horrible". It's a wisdom teaching. Wisdom teachings aren't easily understood, and some take the story and don't apply it well.

I think many people hear read your posts and here your anger and frustration with religion and take it personally. I don't. I think your posts tell us that you long for truth and I trust you will find it.

I don't worry about the truth so much as I enjoy a good discussion.

I'm reasonably comfortable with "the truth" as far as it applies to my life. I try to do the right thing, but I don't do it on the hope of meeting my parents again in the afterlife or fear of burning for all eternity for that beef Jerky I ate during Lent once. I just do it because it's the right thing to do.

Give you an example. At my last job, where I got let go from, I worked with a woman who pretty much stabbed me in the back every day. I think because of her own insecurities, I frankly don't care. Well, Instant Karma's gonna get you, she got let go about a year after I was, and unlike me, wasn't able to find a new job right away.

Now, through my side business, the Resume Service, I got wind of a job she was qualified for, and I had no clients currently looking. So despite what she did, I got her in contact with the person who was looking. It was just the decent thing to do, although a few of my friends questioned why I would help someone who did things to harm me.

My answer, '

"Because if I am going to consider myself a better person, I should act like one."

 

[logical4u]

Nope, just the people who run them.

Most of the people who go are "Dupes".

Happy to provide the clarification.

Clarification? Are you saying that the people that came to this country to practice their religion, freely, were dupes? The people that began this great nation's states: the Puritans, the Quakers, the Catholics, and other Christian denominations were all dupes and phonies? Are you saying that the people that seek to maintain that culture are "dupes"?

Oh tell us, wise one, what faith would "you" have us follow?

Yes, I think these people were all dupes. They all bought into the preaching of Con Men who promised them all sorts of good things to less smart people, (after they die, of course) if they just give up their free will and do what they say.

That's what religion is, at the end of the day. Kneel, pray to the saints, wear this magic underwear, let them have sex with your teenage daughter, whatever. And the dupes go along with it.

You talk about the people who fled here as being noble, but the fact is, once they got here, they slaughtered the "heathen" native Americans and hanged each other for being 'witches'.

I would have you follow no faith, but make decisions based on a simple moral code. Does what I do harm someone? If no, then there's nothing wrong with it. If yes, is there an overriding rational reason to cause harm? If the the answer is yes to the first question and no to the second, then it's immoral.

I think at some basis, there's some of that in most religions, until they get full of themselves, and find all sorts of reasons why God would have them answer "yes" to the second question.

Hense, getting back to the OP, why stories like Genesis 19 are so horrible. They use scripture to otherwise justify terrible acts, like homophobia.

It appears you are focusing on the "fringe" and ignoring the majority. This is the country that changed the world (specifically because of Christian philosophy that people can govern themselves based on moral code; church is to maintain the community common values)

Are there wackos that do really bad stuff in the "name" of religion (not the faith itself)? YES! Do the followers have any responsibility in following a con? YES!

"No faith"? What is that? Do you go to other people to decide what your moral code is? Do you get to decide on your own what morals you follow, or what morals others follow?
You people that are so against religion amuse me, you want to talk of morals, but ignore the origination of "morals" (that would be the Lord). You want to pretend that everyone would be great without religion: newsflash: that has been tried (anarchy, communism, socialism, etc), every time it has failed with tens, hundreds, thousands, or millions murdered all for "morals" (another word for faith action).

Why is homophobia so terrible (Christians do not believe in killing those that participate)? I thought you were all about "morals"? Homosexual acts require one or more people involved in "corruption". I guess this gets back to each gets to define "which" morals they want to follow. I guess that would make "anarchy" your favorite "faith".

 

[logical4u]

If it weren't for organized religion, there would have been no Rennaissance.

If it weren't for Christianity, we never would have had the Dark Ages in order to NEED a Rennaissance.

The Dark Ages. The first "Faith-based Iniative". That book written by some pagan? BURN IT! it was written by a Pagan. It took 1000 years to get somewhere near where the ROmans were before the Christians mucked it up...

Based on your posts, I take it that you prefer to live where the majority is not Christian, say the ME (not Israel), an African nation or somewhere in the Orient? Just sayin', since Christianity is soooo bad, why did it bring the rest of the world kicking and screaming into the light?

 

[JoeB131]

If it weren't for organized religion, there would have been no Rennaissance.

If it weren't for Christianity, we never would have had the Dark Ages in order to NEED a Rennaissance.

The Dark Ages. The first "Faith-based Iniative". That book written by some pagan? BURN IT! it was written by a Pagan. It took 1000 years to get somewhere near where the ROmans were before the Christians mucked it up...

Based on your posts, I take it that you prefer to live where the majority is not Christian, say the ME (not Israel), an African nation or somewhere in the Orient? Just sayin', since Christianity is soooo bad, why did it bring the rest of the world kicking and screaming into the light?

It didn't do anything near that. For a while, the bad old Muslims were technologically ahead of the Christian world. So were the Chinese.

We white people really think we are all that smart, but all we are really enjoying is a few centuries at the top, and the party's coming to an end.

Islam isn't any better than Christianity, really. Christians for most of their history were just as brutal as the Muslims. Until they had an "enlightenment" that still involved religious wars over whether Jesus was really made of bread or not.

 

[JoeB131]

It appears you are focusing on the "fringe" and ignoring the majority. This is the country that changed the world (specifically because of Christian philosophy that people can govern themselves based on moral code; church is to maintain the community common values)

Are there wackos that do really bad stuff in the "name" of religion (not the faith itself)? YES! Do the followers have any responsibility in following a con? YES!

"No faith"? What is that? Do you go to other people to decide what your moral code is? Do you get to decide on your own what morals you follow, or what morals others follow?
You people that are so against religion amuse me, you want to talk of morals, but ignore the origination of "morals" (that would be the Lord). You want to pretend that everyone would be great without religion: newsflash: that has been tried (anarchy, communism, socialism, etc), every time it has failed with tens, hundreds, thousands, or millions murdered all for "morals" (another word for faith action).

Why is homophobia so terrible (Christians do not believe in killing those that participate)? I thought you were all about "morals"? Homosexual acts require one or more people involved in "corruption". I guess this gets back to each gets to define "which" morals they want to follow. I guess that would make "anarchy" your favorite "faith".

Sorry, I don't think "morals" come from imaginary sky pixies. Morals come from what society as a general rule thinks they are.

When I was a pre-teen, a couple living together outside of marriage was considered scandalous. Today, most married couples live together for a year or two before tying the knot and no one thinks twice about it. I suppose God is fuming about it, because the Bible calls for killing women who aren't virgins on their wedding day.

(Seriously, the bible is a treasure trove for atheists...so much to mock, so little time.)

Most gay people I know aren't living in "corruption". they just have different preferences in their sex. Nothing evil about it at all.

 

[ABikerSailor]

If Christianity is so "moral", why did we steal the land from the Native Americans and almost wipe them all out?

 

[LilOlLady]

If Christianity is so "moral", why did we steal the land from the Native Americans and almost wipe them all out?

Don't you know it had nothing to do with morals or religion? Most atrocities has been committed in the name of Christianity than any other organization. Those that set up Jamestown belived they were doing the natives a favor giving them christianity, blankets with small pox, influenza, pig that destoryed their crops and other animals and plants indigenous and dangerous. And fundamental christians beliefs have not change since the 1600s. They are still destroying countries and people.

 

[Foxfyre]

If it weren't for organized religion, there would have been no Rennaissance.

If it weren't for Christianity, we never would have had the Dark Ages in order to NEED a Rennaissance.

The Dark Ages. The first "Faith-based Iniative". That book written by some pagan? BURN IT! it was written by a Pagan. It took 1000 years to get somewhere near where the ROmans were before the Christians mucked it up...

Protagoras was not a pagan but rather argued that it could not be proven that gods exist. Neither the Pagans nor the Christians liked his stuff. But writing goes back to pre-Roman Empire time and therefore pre-Christian times and was reinvented across the civilized world including ancient China and even the Mayans. Nor is it true the the "Dark Ages" were all that 'dark'. That was the era of some of the world's greatest architecture, magnificent music, amazing inventions, great literary works such as "The Canterbury Tales" much of all of it produced by Christians for Christians.

The Renaissance was largely triggered when scholars--mostly Christian scholars--fled to the west as Constantinople fell to the Ottoman Turks. They brought with them ancient Greek and Latin texts, including Christian writings, that were not widely known in the west. Again mostly Christian scholars were inspired and motivated when they were able to read the classical literature in its original form and the experience changed much of their perspectives in how they viewed many things including Christianity and the Church. That was enhanced by the invention of the printing press (one of those dark ages inventions) that became widely used and they were able to mass produce all those classical texts.

The blessing and curse of all that is a Church freed to move in every direction and come to many different conclusions about right, wrong, morality, faith, justice, and salvation. It would free minds to explore all possibilities, do honest research, and learn new truths, but it also would set the church against itself as it fractured again and again into ever more groups and denominations, each seeking their own truths.

And that is why we have so many opinions about Sodom and Gomorrah ranging from the most ignorant to the most sophisticated.

I was just advised that we have secured a speaker for our next month's Senior Citizen group at church who is actively working at the excavation of Tall el-Hamman in Jordan. Most of the leaders of this project are increasingly convinced they are unearthing the ancient City of Sodom. Should be an interesting program.