Sodom and Gomorrah

[Dr Grump]

Hate to tell ya.......but I've attended Catholic, Lutheran, Episcopalian and both Northern and Southern Baptist churches (orphaned at 8 and in foster care until 16), and ALL of them taught that story was about gays and living in sin.

Hate to break it to you .... again, living the homosexual "lifestyle" is living in sin. To say that homosexual behavior is excluded from the punishment of Sodom and Gomorrah is to ignore facts. I understand that you don't want to believe that homosexual behavior will be punished by the Lord as sins, but it is listed, with other sins (and those other sins will be punished also, so most of us will be in the punishment line with the homosexuals). Homosexual acts require other sins to take place in order for the acts to occur. Denying that, is ignoring the obvious. Claiming that other people sin, too, doesn't mean that your sins are any less.

Which proves god and the bible were invented by homophobes...

 

[JoeB131]

Nutjob? Naw. He doesn't come across as that. But happy? Nope. Nobody with that much hatred and venom in his thoughts is truly happy. Irrational? Yeah. Anybody who takes one section of the Old Testament as literal without putting it into its full context and meaning is at least uninformed if not irrational.

LIke I said, when they start speculating (wrongly) on my personal life, that's when I know I've won the argument.

To wit. If you met me personally, you'd have no doubt I'm a happy (and pretty funny) guy.

Second- The whole Old Testament is like that, not just one little section. God is basically screwing with people and murdering them or commanding they be murdered throughout the whole book. Verse after verse of vengence and punishments for petty things...

Third, I'm still waiting for any of you to put Genesis Chapter 19 in a context where ANYONE looks good. God, Lot, the Angels, the Men of Sodom. Mrs. Lot. Well, I guess the only thing she was guilty of was causing high blood pressure.

 

[JoeB131]

I suspect him of nuttery, however.

LOL, only when God is involved I think. He's pretty rational and makes decent arguments on most topics. It's only on this one that it gets pretty predictable and he uses the sound bites that most anti-JudeoChristian or anti-religion in general folks use. I call it the Justification by Demonization Syndrome. (Yeah I made that up.) Lots of folks are guilty of it. They have to demonize something to justify doing or embracing something else. So unnecessary and counterproductive, but you see it all the time.

Actually, I'm pretty rational on this subject.

There's no magic man in the sky. Sorry. There just isn't.

 

[Mr. President]

Well, if you allow me to insert one more viewpoint. First and foremost it was not every action of Lot that made him a righteous man but it was his obedience and willingness to hear the word of God and act accordingly. Just as God said David was a man after his own heart and we see that the sins of David were plenty but his heart is what God saw as righteous.

During this period in time any guest that you brought into your house you were to protect and take care of. Since these were guests of Lot's house he would rather lose something of value to himself as opposed to allowing any misfortune to come to his guests. It was said that it was not really clear that the men wanted to rape the angels however if we look at it in context the only reason that Lot would offer his daughters is because it was a different means to accomplish the same desire which was the sexual gratification of the men outside.

The two daughters believed that they were the last three people on earth and knew that their sober father would not consent to having children with them so they got him drunk and were both impregnated. This was for the hopes of continuing mankind.

In closing, was homosexuality a sin that was being committed in Sodom and Gomorrah? Yes. Was it the only sin being committed? Not at all. There were many sins being committed and that is why the cities were destroyed.

 

[koshergrl]

People will speculate on your private life when it's what you use to make your point.

I could care less about your private life, and have stated I think you're a liar anyway. I don't think it means a thing.

I still think you're an unhappy little shit, though. It doesn't take much imagination to catch that.

 

[JoeB131]

Do you really believe that the hypocrites limit themselves to attending church and you find them no where else?? People go to church for many reasons, including social syncophants, and some even attend to (shh, don't tell) IMPROVE THEMSELVES, by listening to the Word of the Lord spoken verbally, and to be motivated into sinning less along with hoping the Holy Spirit will offer them grace and strength to overcome their sins (that includes hypocricy).
I am sorry for your losses. The Lord's ways are not known by us. His reasons are not our reasons, and His plans are not our plans. I believe He calls some of us to Him, not because of what they have done (or haven't done), but because they have touched some one that He wants to reach, and is desperately trying to get their attention. If they don't pay attention, He will try to reach them again, and each time, it will be closer to home. At least, that has been my experience.

Or you can just do what my creepy uncle did and give them a bunch of money, and they totally forgive all the pain you inflict on your family.

Heck, they even praised the trophy wife at the funeral while the orignal wife, (my aunt) was in the room. BURN!

I was done with these phonies 30 years ago.

Are you stating that all those that go to church are "phonies"?

Nope, just the people who run them.

Most of the people who go are "Dupes".

Happy to provide the clarification.

 

[JoeB131]

Are you suggesting the Lord hold us as mental slaves with no ability to reason? How does your above statement recognize the people that studied and worked really hard to murder all those people? Are you saying that people really have no power over their own decisions and the Lord should save us from ourselves by making us into His Zombie army that chants His name with no understanding of His power or Greatness? Have you considered how many people did NOT die on 9/11? The towers could house over 50,000 employees, and if each employee had a customer or a sales rep speaking to them that day, the death toll would have been much higher? I guess that is an atheist thing, to always look for gloom and despair when the light is shining and a shadow passes to remind us of how good we have it.

Oh, I see. God couldn't stop those guys because they studied reallly hard to pull off the scheme. So this omnipotent being can be stymied by really hard study and work. Ahhhh, I get it now.

Or Iron Chariots.

"And the Lord was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron."
—Judges 1:19

So Studying really hard or getting yourself some Iron Chariots will stop God. Got it.

If some one raises their hand (or weapon) against another, are you suggesting the Lord stop them? Are you suggesting the Lord make us all march out to the fields together, work the fields for our food, eat the same thing, and lay down to sleep as a group? Or would you prefer He assign shifts? He gave us the ability to reason or free will. That means that we must live with the decisions (actions) we have made and how those decisions affect others.

I'm suggesting that if God really cares about good and evil, maybe he needs to do something about evil once in a while.

After all, the 9-11 terrorists really thought they were doing God's will. The same vengeful Abrahamic God that Jews and Christians worship.

Maybe the Lord wanted the hebrews to learn how to make iron chariots? A little girl once asked me why Marco Polo didn't take trucks when he went to trade with China. Maybe the Lord set us up to make automobiles centuries ago, but "free will" (better known as tyrants) interferred?

But that's not what the verse said. It said the lord was with the tribe of Judah, and he could drive out the inhabitants of the Mountain. This is something God wanted done. But he couldn't drive out the valley people because they had some of those awesome Iron Chariots.

Iron Chariots > God.

 

[JoeB131]

People will speculate on your private life when it's what you use to make your point.

I could care less about your private life, and have stated I think you're a liar anyway. I don't think it means a thing.

I still think you're an unhappy little shit, though. It doesn't take much imagination to catch that.

But yet you're the one who comes here with all the anger, comparing people who disagree with you to Nazis...

 

[koshergrl]

No, I compare those who promote abortion to Nazis, who also used abortion to eliminate hated populations.

 

[Dr Grump]

No, I compare those who promote abortion to Nazis, who also used abortion to eliminate hated populations.

Which is why you are still a loon - even if you have changed your name....

 

[JoeB131]

No, I compare those who promote abortion to Nazis, who also used abortion to eliminate hated populations.

The Nazis did nothing of the sort. They just killed the adults... So Argument Fail.

 

[JoeB131]

I suspect him of nuttery, however.

LOL, only when God is involved I think. He's pretty rational and makes decent arguments on most topics. It's only on this one that it gets pretty predictable and he uses the sound bites that most anti-JudeoChristian or anti-religion in general folks use. I call it the Justification by Demonization Syndrome. (Yeah I made that up.) Lots of folks are guilty of it. They have to demonize something to justify doing or embracing something else. So unnecessary and counterproductive, but you see it all the time.

So it's impossible for someone to have a different viewpoint on this subject than the most common christian opinion without being anti-religion in general?

I share his view on the story, that's it's morally disgusting. But I don't care if the whole world is religious, i'm just not as in your face about it as he is.

But then again it's an anonymous message board, how in your face is anything when we're in 100% control of what we click on and read?

And that's the point. If you are going to have a message board entitled Religion and EThics, you should really expect to have some heated discussions.

Do I have these kinds of discussions at work? Not really. That's not what I'm being paid to do. I work with a gal who is a pretty serious Jehovah's Witness (someone asked me to be a Jehovahs Witness once, but I told them I didn't see the accident.) And some of the crap that falls out of her mouth is truly silly.

But, no, I don't mock her, because I still have to work with her next week.

 

[Mr. President]

As far as Judges 1:19 is concerned it says the Lord was with Judah "Judah is a man" and he "Judah" drave the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley because they had iron chariots. This means Judah failed to drive out the inhabitants because they had iron chariots.

The reason Judah could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley is because it was not the Lord's will for them to be moved yet. If you go to Judges 2:20-23 it says that God would not drive out the enemies of Israel that were left but he would keep them there so as to prove Israel to walk the way of the Lord or another.

 

[JoeB131]

As far as Judges 1:19 is concerned it says the Lord was with Judah "Judah is a man" and he "Judah" drave the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley because they had iron chariots. This means Judah failed to drive out the inhabitants because they had iron chariots.

The reason Judah could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley is because it was not the Lord's will for them to be moved yet. If you go to Judges 2:20-23 it says that God would not drive out the enemies of Israel that were left but he would keep them there so as to prove Israel to walk the way of the Lord or another.

Judah wasn't a man in Judges 11, Judah was a tribe of Israel. "He" refers to God, not Judah.

And skipping ahead a whole chapter (seriously, God sells Israel into bondage about a dozen times in teh Book of Judges.) is defeating the point.

 

[Sky Dancer]

No, I compare those who promote abortion to Nazis, who also used abortion to eliminate hated populations.

Which is why you are still a loon - even if you have changed your name....

What was her name before?

 

[Mr. President]

Judges 1:17 And Judah went with Simeon his brother and they slew the Canaanites that inhabited Ze'phath and utterly destroyed it. And the name of the city was called Hor'mah. 18 Also Judah took Ga'-za with the coast thereof, and Ek'-ron wit the coast thereof.

Now read verse 19.

PS Judah was a man the leader of the Tribe of Judah. Hence his brother named Simeon

 

[JoeB131]

Sorry, man, I'm still laughing at your Omnipotent Sky Pixie being stymied by "Iron Chariots"....

Just too funny.

 

[Mr. President]

No Joe I think you actually read the whole first chapter of Judges then realized that it marked the inability of each tribe not to conquer their enemies past a certain point then the second chapter revealing why it was so. After figuring out you were wrong you went on google and came back and posted the first picture you could find that you thought might distract readers from the fact that you were wrong. I admire your tenacity friend.

 

[JoeB131]

No Joe I think you actually read the whole first chapter of Judges then realized that it marked the inability of each tribe not to conquer their enemies past a certain point then the second chapter revealing why it was so. After figuring out you were wrong you went on google and came back and posted the first picture you could find that you thought might distract readers from the fact that you were wrong. I admire your tenacity friend.

No, I read the Book of Judges, and see a people who blame their misfortunes on their own unworthiness...

I think we know where the concept of "self-loathing" in the Abrahamic religions comes from. If God lets us down, it's our own damned fault.

The purpose of the Book of Judges is to show that Israel needed a king. Because left to their own devices, they kept messing it up....

 

[Dr Grump]

No, I compare those who promote abortion to Nazis, who also used abortion to eliminate hated populations.

Which is why you are still a loon - even if you have changed your name....

What was her name before?

You can't tell? Allie Baba, or Allie Babble...take your pic....