Sodom and Gomorrah

[Dr.Drock]

LOL, only when God is involved I think. He's pretty rational and makes decent arguments on most topics. It's only on this one that it gets pretty predictable and he uses the sound bites that most anti-JudeoChristian or anti-religion in general folks use. I call it the Justification by Demonization Syndrome. (Yeah I made that up.) Lots of folks are guilty of it. They have to demonize something to justify doing or embracing something else. So unnecessary and counterproductive, but you see it all the time.

So it's impossible for someone to have a different viewpoint on this subject than the most common christian opinion without being anti-religion in general?


I share his view on the story, that's it's morally disgusting. But I don't care if the whole world is religious, i'm just not as in your face about it as he is.


But then again it's an anonymous message board, how in your face is anything when we're in 100% control of what we click on and read?

Of course it is possible to have different viewpoints. Especially when it involves a story like Sodom and Gomorrah. And when I teach it I teach all of them and leave it to the students to decide.

Is it exactly as it is written in the O.T. manuscripts? I have no problem with anybody who wants to believe that and do not try to shake anybody's faith about that.

Is it history? I teach it as possibly based on a historical event and possibly being supported by archeological evidence currently in progress even if the story itself is all or mostly fiction.

Is it metaphor or symbolic or myth? I give all the evidence for why all those are plausible theories.

Is it allegory (i.e. a story to illustrate a teaching?) There is plenty of reason to go with that theory too.

The bottom line is we cannot know for sure. Now we look through a glass darkly and can only surmise. Then we will be face to face with those who know the answers and we will know too.

The one thing I insist on, however, is that the class consider the story through the eyes of those who wrote it and from the perspective of their time and culture and how they understood God.

By the time the lesson is ended, everybody in the class will have opportunity to know what is in the story and what is not in the story and will have a little better understanding of the mind, beliefs, customs, and faith of an ancient people all those years ago.

and it's possible they could come to the same conclusion as Joe did, without being anti-religion.

Very possible if they aren't christians, imo.

 

[Foxfyre]

So it's impossible for someone to have a different viewpoint on this subject than the most common christian opinion without being anti-religion in general?


I share his view on the story, that's it's morally disgusting. But I don't care if the whole world is religious, i'm just not as in your face about it as he is.


But then again it's an anonymous message board, how in your face is anything when we're in 100% control of what we click on and read?

Of course it is possible to have different viewpoints. Especially when it involves a story like Sodom and Gomorrah. And when I teach it I teach all of them and leave it to the students to decide.

Is it exactly as it is written in the O.T. manuscripts? I have no problem with anybody who wants to believe that and do not try to shake anybody's faith about that.

Is it history? I teach it as possibly based on a historical event and possibly being supported by archeological evidence currently in progress even if the story itself is all or mostly fiction.

Is it metaphor or symbolic or myth? I give all the evidence for why all those are plausible theories.

Is it allegory (i.e. a story to illustrate a teaching?) There is plenty of reason to go with that theory too.

The bottom line is we cannot know for sure. Now we look through a glass darkly and can only surmise. Then we will be face to face with those who know the answers and we will know too.

The one thing I insist on, however, is that the class consider the story through the eyes of those who wrote it and from the perspective of their time and culture and how they understood God.

By the time the lesson is ended, everybody in the class will have opportunity to know what is in the story and what is not in the story and will have a little better understanding of the mind, beliefs, customs, and faith of an ancient people all those years ago.

and it's possible they could come to the same conclusion as Joe did, without being anti-religion.

Very possible if they aren't christians, imo.

No, you have to be really angry and filled with hate to intentionally belittle or demean somebody else's faith in God or tell them they're stupid or wrong to believe it. Nobody in my classes would do that. They were there to learn. I saw to it they had the opportunity to do so.

 

[ABikerSailor]

LOL, only when God is involved I think. He's pretty rational and makes decent arguments on most topics. It's only on this one that it gets pretty predictable and he uses the sound bites that most anti-JudeoChristian or anti-religion in general folks use. I call it the Justification by Demonization Syndrome. (Yeah I made that up.) Lots of folks are guilty of it. They have to demonize something to justify doing or embracing something else. So unnecessary and counterproductive, but you see it all the time.

So it's impossible for someone to have a different viewpoint on this subject than the most common christian opinion without being anti-religion in general?


I share his view on the story, that's it's morally disgusting. But I don't care if the whole world is religious, i'm just not as in your face about it as he is.


But then again it's an anonymous message board, how in your face is anything when we're in 100% control of what we click on and read?

Of course it is possible to have different viewpoints. Especially when it involves a story like Sodom and Gomorrah. And when I teach it I teach all of them and leave it to the students to decide.

Is it exactly as it is written in the O.T. manuscripts? I have no problem with anybody who wants to believe that and do not try to shake anybody's faith about that.

Is it history? I teach it as possibly based on a historical event and possibly being supported by archeological evidence currently in progress even if the story itself is all or mostly fiction.

Is it metaphor or symbolic or myth? I give all the evidence for why all those are plausible theories.

Is it allegory (i.e. a story to illustrate a teaching?) There is plenty of reason to go with that theory too.

The bottom line is we cannot know for sure. Now we look through a glass darkly and can only surmise. Then we will be face to face with those who know the answers and we will know too.

The one thing I insist on, however, is that the class consider the story through the eyes of those who wrote it and from the perspective of their time and culture and how they understood God.

By the time the lesson is ended, everybody in the class will have opportunity to know what is in the story and what is not in the story and will have a little better understanding of the mind, beliefs, customs, and faith of an ancient people all those years ago.

So, since you teach it, what is your opinion.........is it about a city that was gay, or is it about a city that treated visitors badly?

 

[Foxfyre]

So it's impossible for someone to have a different viewpoint on this subject than the most common christian opinion without being anti-religion in general?


I share his view on the story, that's it's morally disgusting. But I don't care if the whole world is religious, i'm just not as in your face about it as he is.


But then again it's an anonymous message board, how in your face is anything when we're in 100% control of what we click on and read?

Of course it is possible to have different viewpoints. Especially when it involves a story like Sodom and Gomorrah. And when I teach it I teach all of them and leave it to the students to decide.

Is it exactly as it is written in the O.T. manuscripts? I have no problem with anybody who wants to believe that and do not try to shake anybody's faith about that.

Is it history? I teach it as possibly based on a historical event and possibly being supported by archeological evidence currently in progress even if the story itself is all or mostly fiction.

Is it metaphor or symbolic or myth? I give all the evidence for why all those are plausible theories.

Is it allegory (i.e. a story to illustrate a teaching?) There is plenty of reason to go with that theory too.

The bottom line is we cannot know for sure. Now we look through a glass darkly and can only surmise. Then we will be face to face with those who know the answers and we will know too.

The one thing I insist on, however, is that the class consider the story through the eyes of those who wrote it and from the perspective of their time and culture and how they understood God.

By the time the lesson is ended, everybody in the class will have opportunity to know what is in the story and what is not in the story and will have a little better understanding of the mind, beliefs, customs, and faith of an ancient people all those years ago.

So, since you teach it, what is your opinion.........is it about a city that was gay, or is it about a city that treated visitors badly?

In my opinion, homosexuality wasn't even a thought in anybody's head when that story was written. It is a story that illustrates the consequences for sin and justifies Lot being spared because of him going to the extreme to show hospitality to strangers. What happened was reasonable through the eyes and in the culture of that ancient people.

In my opinion, in the whole Bible, God has been the same from the beginning to now and always. But the perception of the people about who and what God was, what He expects of us, concepts of right and wrong, sin and virtue, have developed and evolved over the millenia. And that perception continues to develop.

 

[ABikerSailor]

So, if it wasn't about homosexuality, then care to explain why so many Christians use that story as a way to bash gays over the head and exclude them?

 

[Foxfyre]

So, if it wasn't about homosexuality, then care to explain why so many Christians use that story as a way to bash gays over the head and exclude them?

You'e asking me to tell you why somebody else does something? I don't know any Christians who do that, and I certainly don't teach that, so you'll have to get that answer from somebody else.

 

[ABikerSailor]

So, if it wasn't about homosexuality, then care to explain why so many Christians use that story as a way to bash gays over the head and exclude them?

You'e asking me to tell you why somebody else does something? I don't know any Christians who do that, and I certainly don't teach that, so you'll have to get that answer from somebody else.

But, you've gotta admit...........MANY people of the Christian faith consider that a story against homosexual behavior, and it continues to be taught as such today in most churches.

 

[Foxfyre]

So, if it wasn't about homosexuality, then care to explain why so many Christians use that story as a way to bash gays over the head and exclude them?

You'e asking me to tell you why somebody else does something? I don't know any Christians who do that, and I certainly don't teach that, so you'll have to get that answer from somebody else.

But, you've gotta admit...........MANY people of the Christian faith consider that a story against homosexual behavior, and it continues to be taught as such today in most churches.

No, it isn't taught as such in most churches. Perhaps it is taught that way in some small fundamentalist congregations but I don't know for sure about that. I do know that anybody who has been through a decent comprehensive Bible study would know better. Unfortunately, too many still read the Bible from a 21st century experience and culture and don't have a clue what much of the text really means.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Hate to tell ya.......but I've attended Catholic, Lutheran, Episcopalian and both Northern and Southern Baptist churches (orphaned at 8 and in foster care until 16), and ALL of them taught that story was about gays and living in sin.

 

[Foxfyre]

Hate to tell ya.......but I've attended Catholic, Lutheran, Episcopalian and both Northern and Southern Baptist churches (orphaned at 8 and in foster care until 16), and ALL of them taught that story was about gays and living in sin.

Well I have worked for the Episcopalians and took Seminary training through an Episcopal Seminary--no, I was not Epsicopalian myself, and have had Roman Catholics, Baptists, and Lutherans in my classes. So, I can only extend my condolences that you must have had the misfortune to have landed in the few mainline Christian congregations that are totally clueless about what the Bible says.

 

[koshergrl]

I was never taught it was about gays and living in sin.

Maybe you think everything's about gays and living in sin, ABS. I wonder why?

 

[Ropey]

My father taught me that this story was a proof in the differentiation between one man choosing to sin (against righteousness) and a group sinning....

He told me that the power (connection to G-d) in congregation is greater than one alone. In other words, when man congregates to worship, the voice is louder and is what is pleasing to the L-rd.

When man congregates to do what is not pleasing to the L-rd, that also is louder. A community is louder. A city is louder. A culture is louder. A globe is loudest. I was told that what is pleasing is still greater to the L-rd. When it isn't, then G-d will come back and will not be coming back with peace/love and Woodstock in H-s mind and H-s coming is foretold.

 

[Sky Dancer]

So, you got a teaching that God is wrathful, Ropey. For me, I didn't need a God like that.

The people in my own family were wrathful enough.

 

[koshergrl]

Who cares, Sky? Quit whining about your family all over the place, begging for sympathy.

God you're nauseating.

 

[Foxfyre]

My father taught me that this story was a proof in the differentiation between one man choosing to sin (against righteousness) and a group sinning....

He told me that the power (connection to G-d) in congregation is greater than one alone. In other words, when man congregates to worship, the voice is louder and is what is pleasing to the L-rd.

When man congregates to do what is not pleasing to the L-rd, that also is louder. A community is louder. A city is louder. A culture is louder. A globe is loudest. I was told that what is pleasing is still greater to the L-rd. When it isn't, then G-d will come back and will not be coming back with peace/love and Woodstock in H-s mind and H-s coming is foretold.

That is insightful and most interesting Ropey. I'll have to admit I've never known what a modern Jew understands and teaches of Sodom and Gomorrah. But that certain broadens the way in which I will think about it in the future. Thank you.

 

[logical4u]

Right. So all those people who died on 9-11 died because that's what God wanted.

See. that's easy. If you want to worship a psychopath.

I don't. Especially not imaginary ones.

Are you suggesting the Lord hold us as mental slaves with no ability to reason? How does your above statement recognize the people that studied and worked really hard to murder all those people? Are you saying that people really have no power over their own decisions and the Lord should save us from ourselves by making us into His Zombie army that chants His name with no understanding of His power or Greatness? Have you considered how many people did NOT die on 9/11? The towers could house over 50,000 employees, and if each employee had a customer or a sales rep speaking to them that day, the death toll would have been much higher? I guess that is an atheist thing, to always look for gloom and despair when the light is shining and a shadow passes to remind us of how good we have it.

Oh, I see. God couldn't stop those guys because they studied reallly hard to pull off the scheme. So this omnipotent being can be stymied by really hard study and work. Ahhhh, I get it now.

Or Iron Chariots.

"And the Lord was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron."
—Judges 1:19

So Studying really hard or getting yourself some Iron Chariots will stop God. Got it.

If some one raises their hand (or weapon) against another, are you suggesting the Lord stop them? Are you suggesting the Lord make us all march out to the fields together, work the fields for our food, eat the same thing, and lay down to sleep as a group? Or would you prefer He assign shifts? He gave us the ability to reason or free will. That means that we must live with the decisions (actions) we have made and how those decisions affect others.

Maybe the Lord wanted the hebrews to learn how to make iron chariots? A little girl once asked me why Marco Polo didn't take trucks when he went to trade with China. Maybe the Lord set us up to make automobiles centuries ago, but "free will" (better known as tyrants) interferred?

 

[logical4u]

Guess which one got the really involved eulogy from the priest, and who got the "insert deceased name here" service?

That's why people don't go to church, pumpkin. Bunch of fuckin' hypocrites.

Do you really believe that the hypocrites limit themselves to attending church and you find them no where else?? People go to church for many reasons, including social syncophants, and some even attend to (shh, don't tell) IMPROVE THEMSELVES, by listening to the Word of the Lord spoken verbally, and to be motivated into sinning less along with hoping the Holy Spirit will offer them grace and strength to overcome their sins (that includes hypocricy).
I am sorry for your losses. The Lord's ways are not known by us. His reasons are not our reasons, and His plans are not our plans. I believe He calls some of us to Him, not because of what they have done (or haven't done), but because they have touched some one that He wants to reach, and is desperately trying to get their attention. If they don't pay attention, He will try to reach them again, and each time, it will be closer to home. At least, that has been my experience.

Or you can just do what my creepy uncle did and give them a bunch of money, and they totally forgive all the pain you inflict on your family.

Heck, they even praised the trophy wife at the funeral while the orignal wife, (my aunt) was in the room. BURN!

I was done with these phonies 30 years ago.

Are you stating that all those that go to church are "phonies"?

 

[logical4u]

Hate to tell ya.......but I've attended Catholic, Lutheran, Episcopalian and both Northern and Southern Baptist churches (orphaned at 8 and in foster care until 16), and ALL of them taught that story was about gays and living in sin.

Hate to break it to you .... again, living the homosexual "lifestyle" is living in sin. To say that homosexual behavior is excluded from the punishment of Sodom and Gomorrah is to ignore facts. I understand that you don't want to believe that homosexual behavior will be punished by the Lord as sins, but it is listed, with other sins (and those other sins will be punished also, so most of us will be in the punishment line with the homosexuals). Homosexual acts require other sins to take place in order for the acts to occur. Denying that, is ignoring the obvious. Claiming that other people sin, too, doesn't mean that your sins are any less.

 

[JoeB131]

And obviously you're a happier person because of it.

vastly.

When I used to buy into the bullshit, I felt guilty all the time over stuff I never should have felt guilty about...

I used to look at the priest and think, "What a fat, stupid hypocrite!" and then feel guilty about that, too.

Now I can look at these fat guilty hypocrites who are up there because they couldn't deal with being gay (about 99% of the Catholic Clergy) and realize they are phonies.

Priest?

Didn't you say you were Baptist for years?

Anyway, you just come off as a nutjob. But whatever rocks your boat.

Nope. Said I was brought up Catholic. Pretty clearly stated that, but I realize you have serious reading comprehension problems.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Do you really believe that the hypocrites limit themselves to attending church and you find them no where else?? People go to church for many reasons, including social syncophants, and some even attend to (shh, don't tell) IMPROVE THEMSELVES, by listening to the Word of the Lord spoken verbally, and to be motivated into sinning less along with hoping the Holy Spirit will offer them grace and strength to overcome their sins (that includes hypocricy).
I am sorry for your losses. The Lord's ways are not known by us. His reasons are not our reasons, and His plans are not our plans. I believe He calls some of us to Him, not because of what they have done (or haven't done), but because they have touched some one that He wants to reach, and is desperately trying to get their attention. If they don't pay attention, He will try to reach them again, and each time, it will be closer to home. At least, that has been my experience.

Or you can just do what my creepy uncle did and give them a bunch of money, and they totally forgive all the pain you inflict on your family.

Heck, they even praised the trophy wife at the funeral while the orignal wife, (my aunt) was in the room. BURN!

I was done with these phonies 30 years ago.

Are you stating that all those that go to church are "phonies"?

Hardly. The poster related some personal experiences. The term "all" was not used.