R&E Spiritual Warfare

[Donald H]

Consider the possibility that no one is disregarding science, only that some religious experiences are outside the realm of science in much the same way quilting cannot be studied and used in the same way as barbecuing.

Sure, I'm considering the possibility, and in fact that's the only possible reason why I'm still commenting here on this thread.

I certainly can't agree that some religious experiences are outside the realms of science.
I would agree that some religious people could wrongly perceive that they are.

But that's where we would need to hear an example of what is being perceived.

There's a wide range to imagine. All the way from Noah's ark to someone's perception of satan being present in somebody's body or mind.

I'm offering a topic to pursue here at least and I consider it just as valid as yours or anyone else's.

 

[Meriweather]

In early Judaism, Satan, or haSatan's purpose was thought to be a tester. In more giggly moments, I can see everyone before the judgement seat with tags attached reading something like, Inspected by number 12.

Can there be both testing and evil, with the two being separate? The latter chapters of Genesis seem to be outlining the problems of lack of self-discipline, especially sexual discipline. Do those temptations come from evil or from testing.

Studying the Roman empire, we learn that Julius Caesar was a woman chaser, he had not problem with homosexuality. His successor was not only a pedophile, but he collected beautiful children to perform both kinds of sex acts in front of him with each other, and some to him. If he was in the mood, after the performance, he had the children thrown off a thousand foot cliff, either into the water or the rocks below.

Just a few years ago, society was okay with what happens sexually between two consenting adults. Now we seem to be heading in the direction of being okay with pushing children into early studies of their sexuality. With abortion, like the Romans, we are pretty much the same with being okay with children being thrown off a cliff.

Do we alone come up with a good spirit within ourselves or with an evil spirit within ourselves? Or, are there also outside spirits either shepherding us or leading us astray?

 

[flan327]

I was raised Roman Catholic
I was married in the Church
Baptized my children
Even taught Sunday school

I never believed

Heaven and Hell exist right here
Right now

I do enjoy attending a Quaker Meeting

 

[Donald H]

Can there be both testing and evil, with the two being separate? The latter chapters of Genesis seem to be outlining the problems of lack of self-discipline, especially sexual discipline. Do those temptations come from evil or from testing.

Is that supposed to somehow relate to 'spiritual warfare'?
Sex and sexuality in the bible's concept is completely outdated and irrelevant to the 21st. century due to modern birth control availability and practices. What was true when the bibles were written up to and including the 13th. century, is no longer true today.

Studying the Roman empire, we learn that Julius Caesar was a woman chaser, he had not problem with homosexuality. His successor was not only a pedophile, but he collected beautiful children to perform both kinds of sex acts in front of him with each other, and some to him. If he was in the mood, after the performance, he had the children thrown off a thousand foot cliff, either into the water or the rocks below.

No on the 1000 foot cliff, and arguably no to much of the rest of that too.

Just a few years ago, society was okay with what happens sexually between two consenting adults.

Yes, with certain qualifications relating to sexual practices not being harmful to one's health, and still are. Compare that to what was considered the purpose of sex in the times of the bible's writing.

Now we seem to be heading in the direction of being okay with pushing children into early studies of their sexuality.

There is no rational reason to delay sex education for children.

With abortion, like the Romans, we are pretty much the same with being okay with children being thrown off a cliff.

Social reform that discourages men and women from sexual relations that result in seeking an abortion is being ignored in America.

Do we alone come up with a good spirit within ourselves or with an evil spirit within ourselves?

The human mind in other words.

Or, are there also outside spirits either shepherding us or leading us astray?

Our society's influence on how we behave.

Are you attempting to suggest that a "spirit" is a 'mindset' or an 'attitude'?

Or are you trying to characterize a 'spirit' as an imagined evil entity?

If the former then science can provide a simple explanation. If the latter then the mind is imagining something supernatural that can't exist.

 

[Donald H]

I was raised Roman Catholic
I was married in the Church
Baptized my children
Even taught Sunday school

I never believed

Heaven and Hell exist right here
Right now

I do enjoy attending a Quaker Meeting

If you were born and raised in an Islamic country then you would be a Muslim.

*And then you would be condemned to burn in hell by the Christian churches.

* revised.

 

[Meriweather]

I was raised Roman Catholic
I was married in the Church
Baptized my children
Even taught Sunday school

I never believed

Did any one thing get in the way of believing or faith? It appears that you tried, or was it a matter of going along to get along?

 

[Donald H]

Did any one thing get in the way of believing or faith? It appears that you tried, or was it a matter of going along to get along?

It's nearly always a question on whether the childhood indoctrination has succeeded or failed.

 

[RodISHI]

Was he an Oungan?

Had to go look that up to see what an "Ougan" is. No he is just an average dude who claimed to have studied all the religions and claimed Jesus Christ was bunk. I really can't say what that spirit was that manifested through him other than it was an ugly emaciated looking thing that looked worse than something starving to death. I had seen spirits manifest in people previously both good and bad ones but that one was definitively like something with just a toe or two outta the grave.

A devil manifested in a dear friend once when we were in Florida one Winter. Marcel was his name. Marcel was a Frenchman with a strong accent, a pilot trainer who was given the option of US citizenship after the war which he took. He would very often give me shit over my faith and the time I spent in reading the Bible, prayers, etc. One day he'd came by our trailer to visit on one of his walks. I was out on the patio catching some sunshine just enjoying being in a warm area and the ambiance of being on a bay front with coconut palms nearby. Marcel made a comment about how good I was looking and then on how he was simply a dirty old man. I told him he did look like he could use a shave and a bath and then I stated 'cleanliness is next to Godliness you know'. I also said to him I'd go get us a pot of coffee put on to make. That God comment set him off. I had one step left to get into through the door of the trailer when he started spewing. As I listened to what he was saying 'when you get back up there and your playing your harp you tell that..." playing a harp in a heavenly (peaceful) place sounded pretty appealing and I was also watching his face. His face changed briefly and a devil did manifest briefly.

Rod had been napping but by now was up too. He invited Marcel to come sit at the table inside to drink that cup of coffee. Once inside at the table Marcel was back to his normal sweet self. He also started talking about his childhood and he told us how his mom was very religious and also how she would beat him with a her high heel shoes. Marcel poured out about his troubled childhood and his tears flowed that day for those things he lost as a child.

Last time we saw Marcel he'd made a special trip to come through Idaho to see us on his way from Michigan to California. He passed the next season after that.

 

[JustAGuy1]

It's nearly always a question on whether the childhood indoctrination has succeeded or failed.

It must be truly hard to bear the burden for the world in deciding what is true and what isn't.

 

[Disir]

In early Judaism, Satan, or haSatan's purpose was thought to be a tester. In more giggly moments, I can see everyone before the judgement seat with tags attached reading something like, Inspected by number 12.

Can there be both testing and evil, with the two being separate? The latter chapters of Genesis seem to be outlining the problems of lack of self-discipline, especially sexual discipline. Do those temptations come from evil or from testing.

Studying the Roman empire, we learn that Julius Caesar was a woman chaser, he had not problem with homosexuality. His successor was not only a pedophile, but he collected beautiful children to perform both kinds of sex acts in front of him with each other, and some to him. If he was in the mood, after the performance, he had the children thrown off a thousand foot cliff, either into the water or the rocks below.

Just a few years ago, society was okay with what happens sexually between two consenting adults. Now we seem to be heading in the direction of being okay with pushing children into early studies of their sexuality. With abortion, like the Romans, we are pretty much the same with being okay with children being thrown off a cliff.

Do we alone come up with a good spirit within ourselves or with an evil spirit within ourselves? Or, are there also outside spirits either shepherding us or leading us astray?

I do think it's interesting that Satan is the prosecutor in Judaism because nobody and nothing can have equal or more power than G-d . In fact, that concept probably influenced me heavily.

I have primarily focused on whatever changes have to be made internally to change the response to the external world--which is uncontrollable. The key is to control what you can. I think that there are some low-vibe-ing people that haven't evolved internally enough and you may have to get burned by them a couple of times which sparks your own internal evolution. You have to hold yourself accountable, understand why your doing whatever it is you are doing and then set boundaries for others and for yourself. It is that free-will thing. Since I have it, I have to assume that everyone else has it.

I do think there are spiritual entities and there are different types but then there is that free will thing.

 

[Meriweather]

I have primarily focused on whatever changes have to be made internally to change the response to the external world--which is uncontrollable. The key is to control what you can.

I hear you, I think. In that, I mean I believe in responding, not so much controlling. One Bible verse that has deeply affected me is, "Here I am, Lord...send me." A favorite prayer, also a fervent one.

One of the reasons I primarily see external spiritual force as caring over warfare, is through that prayer. Most days I try to do my best with those loved ones and strangers I normally interact with throughout each day. But every so often, through a few strange turn of events I find myself somewhere I wouldn't normally be at a time my skills are needed--for example being in the time and place to help a panicked teenager with frantic twin babies. Teens and babies are two things I can handle with ease in almost any situation. Usually, there was no way I would be in that place at that time, and it was strange how I was there that day. I have attributed it to spiritual forces, though understandably, others will see it as pure coincidence.

But back to control. Are you seeing control as discipline? Or are you maneuvering to a specific outcome?

I am far from the kinds of experience that RodISHI comes by, and they call to mind a common theme exorcists mention: That those possessed were not arbitrarily taken over, they gave permission.

In two experiences, it was adamantly apparent my own free will was being called upon at those particular crossroads. The two things to which I can testify through personal experience is that we are all very deeply cared for and that free will is to be always respected.

 

[RodISHI]

That those possessed were not arbitrarily taken over, they gave permission.

In two experiences, it was adamantly apparent my own free will was being called upon at those particular crossroads. The two things to which I can testify through personal experience is that we are all very deeply cared for and that free will is to be always respected.

Denial, error and disbelief opens those doors to us being subjected. As flesh/carnal beings I am pretty certain we are all guilty of been lacking in that faith department at times. I know I have and I repently sorely for that at a point when the holy spirit was showing us a great deal about ourselves and the heavenly and earthly realms of the spiritual world.

We are taught from day one by others on how to live to the carnal flesh but not how to live to the spiritual portion within us. The reserved portion is for the glory of God and the greatest of gifts that is kept safeguarded until we are mature enough to know and understand that those wonderful treasures laid up for us are worth more than anything the world/carnal has to offer.

 

[Blues Man]

Yes.

It is happening because frankly, the end is very near. I do not belong to a church that "prophesies". But my pastor has stated matter of factly that God told him when he entered the ministry that Jesus would come back in his lifetime. FWIW my pastor is just a regular guy who was ordained. I have never heard him say "God told me" about anything other than that.

We have belonged to our church for about 15 years. Then, I heard him say this and was like..."...really?"

Now? oh yeah. Soon. Very soon.

FWIW our pastor is in his mid-60s

You maybe shouldn't listen to people who say they have personal conversations with gods.

 

[Blues Man]

No one need supply you with proof on this thread. Period.

Kind of like science fiction.

 

[SweetSue92]

You maybe shouldn't listen to people who say they have personal conversations with gods.

Their opinion is more valid than people who reject God for personal reasons tbh

 

[Meriweather]

Denial, error and disbelief opens those doors to us being subjected. As flesh/carnal beings I am pretty certain we are all guilty of been lacking in that faith department at times. I know I have and I repently sorely for that at a point when the holy spirit was showing us a great deal about ourselves and the heavenly and earthly realms of the spiritual world.

We are taught from day one by others on how to live to the carnal flesh but not how to live to the spiritual portion within us. The reserved portion is for the glory of God and the greatest of gifts that is kept safeguarded until we are mature enough to know and understand that those wonderful treasures laid up for us are worth more than anything the world/carnal has to offer.

That is why I haven't been a proponent of no formal prayer in school. Even a brief non-denominational prayer helps children to become aware of the indwelling of their spirit--that we are more than just body and mind.

 

[Blues Man]

Their opinion is more valid than people who reject God for personal reasons tbh

At least you recognize your own confirmation bias

 

[RodISHI]

That is why I haven't been a proponent of no formal prayer in school. Even a brief non-denominational prayer helps children to become aware of the indwelling of their spirit--that we are more than just body and mind.

The relationship is within each even as children and to set human standards to that is when errors can easily occur.

While consider this whole conversation I think it may also be a good time to speak on that 'free will'. No doubt we are presented with choices in this world and also in the heavenly realm. The thing about ones own mind though is it is subject to 'powers and principalities'. When we were being shown so much by the holy spirit is was like riding a roller coaster of emotions up and down. It was an extreme self evaluation and a search for absolute truth for me. I examined my whole life and all the events in it in a very detailed manner clear back to as far as I could recall. That is when I learned how easily we are deceived and I learned we may make choices based on errors that dwell in our thoughts thus we really do not always have complete control over our own thoughts as they are subject to those powers and principalities that battle within us for control. Its akin to being lease holders on land with an option to purchase and it has a lot of ins and outs in that contract to becoming full owners of all that land (space in our heads).

 

[Donald H]

Denial, error and disbelief opens those doors to us being subjected. As flesh/carnal beings I am pretty certain we are all guilty of been lacking in that faith department at times. I know I have and I repently sorely for that at a point when the holy spirit was showing us a great deal about ourselves and the heavenly and earthly realms of the spiritual world.

We are taught from day one by others on how to live to the carnal flesh but not how to live to the spiritual portion within us. The reserved portion is for the glory of God and the greatest of gifts that is kept safeguarded until we are mature enough to know and understand that those wonderful treasures laid up for us are worth more than anything the world/carnal has to offer.

Your frequent use of the word 'carnal' is noticed. Are you attempting to make some connection between sex and sexuality to evil or lack of godliness?

Your spirituality you speak of is your mind and your thoughts, and that's directly connected to one's sexuality.

There's no tradeoff necessary between the spiritual as explained, and the physical.

 

[RodISHI]

Your frequent use of the word 'carnal' is noticed. Are you attempting to make some connection between sex and sexuality to evil or lack of godliness?

Your spirituality you speak of is your mind and your thoughts, and that's directly connected to one's sexuality.

There's no tradeoff necessary between the spiritual as explained, and the physical.

Carnal describes how you refer to things as you and your thoughts are of the earthly world of flesh that decays and dies. In the Bible it is referred to as this world, earth or the world which is not eternal and cannot become such but is ruled over by the spiritual realm; as that is how it was designed from the beginning to be.

The spiritual realm of God also has physical attributes but its not tainted with your sex issues.