R&E Spiritual Warfare

[expat_panama]

In early Judaism, Satan, or haSatan's purpose was thought to be a tester. In more giggly moments, I can see everyone before the judgement seat with tags attached reading something like, Inspected by number 12.

I do think it's interesting that Satan is the prosecutor in Judaism because nobody and nothing can have equal or more power than G-d . In fact, that concept probably influenced me heavily.

I have primarily focused on whatever changes have to be made internally to change the response to the external world--which is uncontrollable. The key is to control what you can. I think that there are some low-vibe-ing people that haven't evolved internally enough and you may have to get burned by them a couple of times which sparks your own internal evolution. You have to hold yourself accountable, understand why your doing whatever it is you are doing and then set boundaries for others and for yourself. It is that free-will thing. Since I have it, I have to assume that everyone else has it.

I do think there are spiritual entities and there are different types but then there is that free will thing.

The nature of Satan sounds like a lot of fun. Personally my take is that Satan does and does not exist --sure that's a contradiction but a lot of ultimate issues are contradictions.

Far more important is the theme of this thread u've started: are we engaged on "spiritual warfare". My view on that is that yes we are, that existence and dealing w/ right/wrong is always a struggle. At the same time we must not see ourselves as being at war w/ each other. If two people argue about religion then they're both wrong. We all need to see this adventure as something to be shared.

Are we together on this?

 

[Donald H]

Carnal describes how you refer to things as you and your thoughts are of the earthly world of flesh that decays and dies. In the Bible it is referred to as this world, earth or the world which is not eternal and cannot become such but is ruled over by the spiritual realm; as that is how it was designed from the beginning to be.

Carnel relates to physical, and especially sexual needs.

The spiritual realm of God also has physical attributes but its not tainted with your sex issues.

Sexuality or sex doesn't 'taint' anything, but your use of the word 'taint' explains your feelings.

Are you of the opinion that sexual relations between a man and a woman are strictly for the purpose of procreation?

In the Bible it is referred to as this world, earth or the world which is not eternal....

No!

 

[expat_panama]

Carnal describes how you refer to things as you and your thoughts are of the earthly world of flesh that decays and dies. In the Bible it is referred to as this world, earth or the world which is not eternal and cannot become such but is ruled over by the spiritual realm; as that is how it was designed from the beginning to be.

The spiritual realm of God also has physical attributes but its not tainted with your sex issues.

Wait, ur not saying that sex is bad are u?

 

[Donald H]

The nature of Satan sounds like a lot of fun. Personally my take is that Satan does and does not exist --sure that's a contradiction but a lot of ultimate issues are contradictions.

Far more important is the theme of this thread u've started: are we engaged on "spiritual warfare". My view on that is that yes we are, that existence and dealing w/ right/wrong is always a struggle.

You're defining 'spiritual warfare' as dealing with the struggle between right and wrong. That description seems a bit too broad and so maybe it needs to be qualified.

At the same time we must not see ourselves as being at war w/ each other. If two people argue about religion then they're both wrong. We all need to see this adventure as something to be shared.

Are we together on this?

No! You can't just proclaim it to be so. If two people argue about religion then by definition, there's a right and a wrong.

Can you provide an example that can prove otherwise?

I would suggest that some debates on religion can be arguments in which both sides must be wrong!

 

[RodISHI]

Carnel relates to physical, and especially sexual needs.

Sexuality or sex doesn't 'taint' anything, but your use of the word 'taint' explains your feelings.

Are you of the opinion that sexual relations between a man and a woman are strictly for the purpose of procreation?



No!

Your divisiveness to inject and twist the spiritual aspect with sex or sexuality because all you have is carnal mind to draw from is the only issue there.

Romans 8. Look at verses 5-6: “For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.”

 

[expat_panama]

You're defining 'spiritual warfare' as dealing with the struggle between right and wrong....

How about our goal is to decide together what the definition is. You seem to be saying that you don't accept the definition I presented. Fine. Please tell me what your preferred defining is and we can work from there.

...No! You can't just proclaim it to be so. If two people argue about religion then by definition, there's a right and a wrong.

Can you provide an example that can prove otherwise?...

We can play the "by definition" all day long ("by definition ur and idiot") but let's be adults in the real world and accept the fact that we're free to define these terms anyway we want. My thinking is that if u and I can agree on definitions then we can get somewhere more easily.

When I consider the fact that the word "religion" means to unite (re legion), then I get that the very purpose of religion is unity. How about you and I say that "arguing" is good (the resolution of conflicting logic structures) and "quarreling" is bad (squabbling for the purpose of ego)?

 

[Donald H]

Your divisiveness to inject and twist the spiritual aspect with sex or sexuality because all you have is carnal mind to draw from is the only issue there.

That would be true if we accept your definition of 'carnal'.

Carnal describes how you refer to things as you and your thoughts are of the earthly world of flesh

I have nothing else but the earthly world in the sense of not having some other world.

For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.”

The mind is the spirit. You're not appearing to be at peace with your thoughts any more than an atheist would or could be. Both I and expat have asked you basically the same question on sex and sexuality: Do you consider sex to be for procreation and not for recreation?

You seem to be saying that to think of sex is death!

Can we get back to defining 'Spiritual Warfare'?

I don't find Expat's definition very useful.

 

[Donald H]

How about our goal is to decide together what the definition is. You seem to be saying that you don't accept the definition I presented. Fine. Please tell me what your preferred defining is and we can work from there.

I didn't accept that there was such a thing as spiritual warfare.

We can play the "by definition" all day long ("by definition ur and idiot") but let's be adults in the real world and accept the fact that we're free to define these terms anyway we want. My thinking is that if u and I can agree on definitions then we can get somewhere more easily.

You and others will have to be responsible for a definition.

When I consider the fact that the word "religion" means to unite (re legion), then I get that the very purpose of religion is unity.

No, that's wrong. I won't give you the origin of the word 'religion' until you attempt to determine it by yourself. If you fail and then ask me again, I will.

How about you and I say that "arguing" is good (the resolution of conflicting logic structures) and "quarreling" is bad (squabbling for the purpose of ego)?

I'm fine with that fwiw? But you said:

If two people argue about religion then they're both wrong.

You may want to retract that now? or at least provide an explanation of what you think it means?

You also said:

("by definition ur and idiot")

 

[RodISHI]

That would be true if we accept your definition of 'carnal'.



I have nothing else but the earthly world in the sense of not having some other world.


The mind is the spirit. You're not appearing to be at peace with your thoughts any more than an atheist would or could be. Both I and expat have asked you basically the same question on sex and sexuality: Do you consider sex to be for procreation and not for recreation?

You seem to be saying that to think of sex is death!

Can we get back to defining 'Spiritual Warfare'?

I don't find Expat's definition very useful.

Carnal covers all the unfettered lusts and desires of the flesh from greed and gluttony to rage and resentfulness and this used in a biblical sense would include sexual abuses but not limit the definition to sexuality. A carnal, flesh minded or earthly being is merely something living by its animal instincts.

I have nothing else but the earthly world in the sense of not having some other world.

Yes I understand that and that is why I said your carnal mind is all you have to draw from.

The mind is the spirit.

No the mind of a human being is not the spirit but it is that place where the spirit dwells.

Both I and expat have asked you basically the same question on sex and sexuality: Do you consider sex to be for procreation and not for recreation?

I am not discussing with you or expat or anyone else online about my thoughts for my personal love life or sex in any way, shape or form.

You seem to be saying that to think of sex is death!

No you are lacking so you again try to attempt to use use convoluted crap because of your own ignorance.

Can we get back to defining 'Spiritual Warfare'?

You haven't been defining 'Spiritual Warfare' but I can most definitely just put you back on that scroll by and ignore mental list I use for useless time wasters.

 

[Donald H]

No you are lacking so you again try to attempt to use use convoluted crap because of your own ignorance.

And I consider you to be rude and insulting on account of your faith not being secure enough to see you through without stooping to that level.

 

[Disir]

Kind of like science fiction.

Ok.

 

[Disir]

I hear you, I think. In that, I mean I believe in responding, not so much controlling. One Bible verse that has deeply affected me is, "Here I am, Lord...send me." A favorite prayer, also a fervent one.

One of the reasons I primarily see external spiritual force as caring over warfare, is through that prayer. Most days I try to do my best with those loved ones and strangers I normally interact with throughout each day. But every so often, through a few strange turn of events I find myself somewhere I wouldn't normally be at a time my skills are needed--for example being in the time and place to help a panicked teenager with frantic twin babies. Teens and babies are two things I can handle with ease in almost any situation. Usually, there was no way I would be in that place at that time, and it was strange how I was there that day. I have attributed it to spiritual forces, though understandably, others will see it as pure coincidence.

But back to control. Are you seeing control as discipline? Or are you maneuvering to a specific outcome?

I am far from the kinds of experience that RodISHI comes by, and they call to mind a common theme exorcists mention: That those possessed were not arbitrarily taken over, they gave permission.

In two experiences, it was adamantly apparent my own free will was being called upon at those particular crossroads. The two things to which I can testify through personal experience is that we are all very deeply cared for and that free will is to be always respected.

I think in many instances that the control is the response. I agree with that. It took me awhile or several years to get there. One of the issues that I have always struggled with is trying to control outcomes because it's way safer, right? I have to let go. It's always been easier to focus on myself, as self discipline, because that would be the only appropriate outcome to control. That's fine and then eventually that attempt to control no longer is beneficial and it has to go. It's limiting. It no longer serves it's purpose. That is in part why I asked about the concept of spiritual warfare. I have been hearing it come from different quarters. Far be it from me to ever admit that I might not be able to control the outcome.

 

[Meriweather]

Far be it from me to ever admit that I might not be able to control the outcome.

This is where you and I differ, possibly because you have greater responsibilities. I tend to plan. I know what needs to be done, why it needs to be done and how it can be accomplished. As a parent and teacher, that is how I meticulously plan the day. I also have the confidence that I can handle anything that goes wrong or off track.

With parenting of young adult children, this can be particularly nerve wracking when they come to you for advice, then elect not to follow it. I don't know how many times I have heard, "I knew you were right, I knew I should have followed your advice...but I just had to try the other way first." Well, duh, I am older and learned the hard way myself. I always assure them, "Look, even if you choose the wrong or more difficult way, it is going to be alright. You will regroup and continue on. You will be fine."

I have great confidence that things will work out--some ways just work out better than other ways--which is why I plan meticulously. That control works out well, so I do understand what you are saying. However, true control is having the confidence of being able to ride along when things are uncontrollable. Prayer has a lot to do with that confidence.

 

[expat_panama]

I didn't accept that there was such a thing as spiritual warfare.

You and others will have to be responsible for a definition.

No, that's wrong. I won't give you the origin of the word 'religion' until you attempt to determine it by yourself. If you fail and then ask me again, I will.

I'm fine with that fwiw? But you said:


You may want to retract that now? or at least provide an explanation of what you think it means?

You also said:

Somehow you and I got off on the wrong foot here, what I'm seeing (and I'll be the first to admit that not everything I think I see turns out to bet there) is that whatever I say you object. We can't work like that. I'd be interested in knowing what you DO believe on this topic because my thinking is that there's much we can agree on and investigate together. otoh if you simply want to disagree w/ me then we can call it a day.

 

[Disir]

This is where you and I differ, possibly because you have greater responsibilities. I tend to plan. I know what needs to be done, why it needs to be done and how it can be accomplished. As a parent and teacher, that is how I meticulously plan the day. I also have the confidence that I can handle anything that goes wrong or off track.

With parenting of young adult children, this can be particularly nerve wracking when they come to you for advice, then elect not to follow it. I don't know how many times I have heard, "I knew you were right, I knew I should have followed your advice...but I just had to try the other way first." Well, duh, I am older and learned the hard way myself. I always assure them, "Look, even if you choose the wrong or more difficult way, it is going to be alright. You will regroup and continue on. You will be fine."

I have great confidence that things will work out--some ways just work out better than other ways--which is why I plan meticulously. That control works out well, so I do understand what you are saying. However, true control is having the confidence of being able to ride along when things are uncontrollable. Prayer has a lot to do with that confidence.

We plan and then watch it blow up. Last month, I had 3 blown placements. I cancelled everything on a Friday to move a placement but had to pick them up on Monday for a 2 hour appointment. I had one blow the following day. I was with them for a few hours. On Monday, I left the office at 6:30 am to pick up the first. It's a 3 hour trip and then another 3 to return. The other ones had to be moved with no clear direction. Everything else on Monday gets canceled. Nobody is together and one group moves over 3 hours away. Four hours from my starting point. I'm back at the office at 1:10 am and then at 8:00 am and I'm back out in the field. It's the nature of the beast.

 

[Donald H]

Somehow you and I got off on the wrong foot here, what I'm seeing (and I'll be the first to admit that not everything I think I see turns out to bet there) is that whatever I say you object. We can't work like that. I'd be interested in knowing what you DO believe on this topic because my thinking is that there's much we can agree on and investigate together. otoh if you simply want to disagree w/ me then we can call it a day.

You decide.

 

[Disir]

You decide.

Welcome to ignore.

 

[Meriweather]

We plan and then watch it blow up. Last month, I had 3 blown placements. I cancelled everything on a Friday to move a placement but had to pick them up on Monday for a 2 hour appointment. I had one blow the following day. I was with them for a few hours. On Monday, I left the office at 6:30 am to pick up the first. It's a 3 hour trip and then another 3 to return. The other ones had to be moved with no clear direction. Everything else on Monday gets canceled. Nobody is together and one group moves over 3 hours away. Four hours from my starting point. I'm back at the office at 1:10 am and then at 8:00 am and I'm back out in the field. It's the nature of the beast.

And it is not a pretty beast. Can't imagine the discourtesy you must be dealing with when to start with people won't even use their phone.

 

[Disir]

And it is not a pretty beast. Can't imagine the discourtesy you must be dealing with when to start with people won't even use their phone.

Sometimes but I had really good communication with everyone pretty much. I used email with teachers because you guys get nailed with crazy stuff and it became easier to get responses whenever it could be done. There were a few service providers that were difficult. I text most of everybody sometimes on a daily basis like parents, foster parents and sometimes my kids. I became notorious for trying to use the microphone on my phone and then having entire sentences kidnapped by autocorrect. If my parents didn't respond, then I have to hunt them down because I didn't want to lose them. That's tragic. I did investigations but I moved to a different position that was all about getting the kids home when possible.

I couldn't be trapped in a classroom with 28+ kiddos. I could but we would have quizzes on Jingle Bells, Batman smells and Robin laid an egg. I can tell you from experience that there are significant disagreements to be had with some regarding Batman smelling. Additionally, I have received phone calls in the past concerning my having taught that song. As it turns out, even though there are major disagreements about Batman smelling, the Batmobile losing a wheel causing the Joker to get away, some do like to see what kind of reaction adults give when they share that newfound knowledge. I admire the work that you all do and I know that I could not do it.

 

[expat_panama]

You decide.

lol!!! So the situation is that I clearly want us to work together only if that's what u definitely want too. You have not expressed a clear preference for working together so I will wish u a good day....

--and cheers!