Stalin, Communism and the left wing

[bripat9643]

When someone says that Stalin was a conservative, anyone can see that is clearly not true. I believe Stalin because all the evidence indicates he was a commie. For one thing, he was a member of the communist party almost his entire life.

Sort of like saying Hitler was left wing, right?

I'm not saying Stalin was a Conservative. I could accept there are parts of what he did that are right wing, but not conservative. Conservative is right wing, but right wing isn't necessarily conservative.

People could easily see that Hitler was left wing if it wasn't for 60 years of pinko professors deliberately lying about the facts.

Nothing Stalin did could be considered right-wing by any honest definition of the term, that is, by any definition that wasn't just a blatant attempt to smear right-wingers.

 

[georgephillip]

Hitler said he was a socialist...

Why did Hitler kill communists and serve capitalists?

 

[kaz]

Hitler said he was a socialist...

Why did Hitler kill communists and serve capitalists?

Lots of socialists kill each other, I don't get the point of the question. Why would one group that wants ubiquitous power over their people get along with others who want the same? Wouldn't it be the other way around?

As for capitalists, no idea what you are talking about. Hitler controlled industry. There were no capitalists, you don't know what capitalism is if you think Nazi Germany was capitalist. And Hitler served no one. They served him.

 

[kaz]

What's the difference between a communist and a "plain liberal?"

Er... Communists want Communism, and plain liberals don't. That could be it. Don't you think?

It sure appears to me that liberals want communism. Go to the CPUSA website and tell me one thing on their agenda that liberals don't agree with.

Well maybe they're Communists. I've met Communists before, one guy got in a huff and left because I compared Franco with Stalin. I'm liberal and I hate Communism.

Bripat asked you a great question. What would Democrats disagree with on the Communists of America website?

 

[frigidweirdo]

What you need to realise is there is a big difference between Communism the theory and what people did claiming the name of Communism.

LOL, that's been my point to you, Skippy.

So....? What?

If that was your point, why didn't you just say it?

 

[frigidweirdo]

What's the difference between a communist and a "plain liberal?"

Er... Communists want Communism, and plain liberals don't. That could be it. Don't you think?

It sure appears to me that liberals want communism. Go to the CPUSA website and tell me one thing on their agenda that liberals don't agree with.

Well maybe they're Communists. I've met Communists before, one guy got in a huff and left because I compared Franco with Stalin. I'm liberal and I hate Communism.

Bripat asked you a great question. What would Democrats disagree with on the Communists of America website?

I don't know, I'm not a Democrat. I would presume it would depend MASSIVELY on the Democrat. A Democrat/Communist might not disagree with much.

A great question. Hah, like asking what color a car is.

 

[kaz]

What you need to realise is there is a big difference between Communism the theory and what people did claiming the name of Communism.

LOL, that's been my point to you, Skippy.

So....? What?

If that was your point, why didn't you just say it?

I did. Communists are lying to you. No kidding.

 

[frigidweirdo]

When someone says that Stalin was a conservative, anyone can see that is clearly not true. I believe Stalin because all the evidence indicates he was a commie. For one thing, he was a member of the communist party almost his entire life.

Sort of like saying Hitler was left wing, right?

I'm not saying Stalin was a Conservative. I could accept there are parts of what he did that are right wing, but not conservative. Conservative is right wing, but right wing isn't necessarily conservative.

People could easily see that Hitler was left wing if it wasn't for 60 years of pinko professors deliberately lying about the facts.

Nothing Stalin did could be considered right-wing by any honest definition of the term, that is, by any definition that wasn't just a blatant attempt to smear right-wingers.

So, here's your argument summed up. Hitler was left wing, only everyone interpreted this as right wing, especially educated people.

Er.... What?

I didn't say Stalin was right wing. I said there were parts of what he did that were right wing. I'd say he was actually just a lot more extreme than he was left or right. Like Hitler and Mao too.

However we're come up with the definitions of far left and far right in order to be able to communicate. Far comes before left or right in both.

 

[kaz]

What's the difference between a communist and a "plain liberal?"

Er... Communists want Communism, and plain liberals don't. That could be it. Don't you think?

It sure appears to me that liberals want communism. Go to the CPUSA website and tell me one thing on their agenda that liberals don't agree with.

Well maybe they're Communists. I've met Communists before, one guy got in a huff and left because I compared Franco with Stalin. I'm liberal and I hate Communism.

Bripat asked you a great question. What would Democrats disagree with on the Communists of America website?

I don't know, I'm not a Democrat. I would presume it would depend MASSIVELY on the Democrat. A Democrat/Communist might not disagree with much.

A great question. Hah, like asking what color a car is.

LOL, another non-Democrat who never splits from the Democratic party. Whatever.

Since it depends on the Democrat, what two Democrats disagree with each other and what do they disagree about? What Democrats would disagree with anything on the Communist website?

 

[frigidweirdo]

What you need to realise is there is a big difference between Communism the theory and what people did claiming the name of Communism.

LOL, that's been my point to you, Skippy.

So....? What?

If that was your point, why didn't you just say it?

I did. Communists are lying to you. No kidding.

Well it was you saying it, not Communists, unless your point now is that you're a Communist.

You didn't say it, hence why it took me a load of posts just to wring it out of you.

So what is your point. Why are you telling me that there's a difference between the theoretical Communism and Communism put in practice exactly?

 

[frigidweirdo]

LOL, another non-Democrat who never splits from the Democratic party. Whatever.

Since it depends on the Democrat, what two Democrats disagree with each other and what do they disagree about? What Democrats would disagree with anything on the Communist website?

Yeah, that wasn't the same frigidweirdo that started a post today against Obama fighting ISIS.



As for what Democrats? How the hell should I know? You go ask them.

 

[westwall]

When someone says that Stalin was a conservative, anyone can see that is clearly not true. I believe Stalin because all the evidence indicates he was a commie. For one thing, he was a member of the communist party almost his entire life.

Sort of like saying Hitler was left wing, right?

I'm not saying Stalin was a Conservative. I could accept there are parts of what he did that are right wing, but not conservative. Conservative is right wing, but right wing isn't necessarily conservative.

People could easily see that Hitler was left wing if it wasn't for 60 years of pinko professors deliberately lying about the facts.

Nothing Stalin did could be considered right-wing by any honest definition of the term, that is, by any definition that wasn't just a blatant attempt to smear right-wingers.

So, here's your argument summed up. Hitler was left wing, only everyone interpreted this as right wing, especially educated people.

Er.... What?

I didn't say Stalin was right wing. I said there were parts of what he did that were right wing. I'd say he was actually just a lot more extreme than he was left or right. Like Hitler and Mao too.

However we're come up with the definitions of far left and far right in order to be able to communicate. Far comes before left or right in both.

Fabian socialists have been filling your head with mush for decades trying to support the contention that there is a right wing totalitarian government system, and a corresponding left wing totalitarian system. That the left and right are somehow different.

The facts are that that "theory" is totally wrong. There are merely two types of government. Total government control, and anarchy. That's it. When you are talking about Hitler, Stalin and Mao, and all those like them...you are describing the same house floor plan. All you are arguing about is the paint on the walls.

 

[Bfgrn]

If you're a Conservative, the first person that comes to mind when you think of Individual Liberty and limited federal government is it Thomas Jefferson; if you're a Progressive, that first person is Josef Stalin

Such a cute phrase Frank...

Too bad Thomas Jefferson said things you right wingers oppose with all you energy...

 

[Bfgrn]

If you're a Conservative, the first person that comes to mind when you think of Individual Liberty and limited federal government is it Thomas Jefferson; if you're a Progressive, that first person is Josef Stalin

They've been arguing Stalin is a conservative. Explains a lot of posts, doesn't it? They think a Marxist is conservative, wow.

Stalin was a Marxist? Hardly.

Right. Stalin was all about individual liberty and limited govenment

The right's mantra of individual liberty and limited government didn't exist when Bush was the "decider"...it appears ONLY when a Democrat occupies the White House.

A decade of conservative control of our whole government NEVER brought us 'individual liberty or limited government'...


"In general, it can probably be said that the conservative does not object to coercion or arbitrary power so long as it is used for what he regards as the right purposes. He believes that if government is in the hands of decent men, it ought not to be too much restricted by rigid rules. Since he is essentially opportunist and lacks principles..."
Friedrich August von Hayek-Why I am Not a Conservative

 

[frigidweirdo]

Fabian socialists have been filling your head with mush for decades trying to support the contention that there is a right wing totalitarian government system, and a corresponding left wing totalitarian system. That the left and right are somehow different.

The facts are that that "theory" is totally wrong. There are merely two types of government. Total government control, and anarchy. That's it. When you are talking about Hitler, Stalin and Mao, and all those like them...you are describing the same house floor plan. All you are arguing about is the paint on the walls.

There is a lot of stuff that is said and a lot of people take stuff in.

On the other hand I've experienced a lot, I've lived in some of these countries, among people who lived during these times, but also seen for myself what has happened.

Extremism is extremism. However there are many different ways of implementing extremism. Stalinism was different to what came after him in the USSR, which is different to what Putin is doing, which was clearly different to what Mao was doing, and totally different to what Hitler was doing.

Yes, they subjugated people, but not in the same ways, there are similarities, but to simply pass of history as all just being rather the same is advocating ignorance.

 

[Bfgrn]

If you can't believe them, then who can you believe? I certainly see no reason to take the word of a bunch of forum commies.

Do you believe someone when they tell you something that is clearly not true? Who can you believe? Hardly anyone, especially not politicians.

You say you see no reason to take the word of a bunch of commies, so why would you believe Stalin when he says he was a Communist?

When someone says that Stalin was a conservative, anyone can see that is clearly not true. I believe Stalin because all the evidence indicates he was a commie. For one thing, he was a member of the communist party almost his entire life.

That doesn't make him a liberal. Stalin was raised in a conservative household, attended Georgian Orthodox Seminary and was a big believer in Darwinism...survival of the fittest or richest. He restricted divorce, banned abortions and was vehemently opposed by the left in Russia led by Trotsky.

 

[bripat9643]

What you need to realise is there is a big difference between Communism the theory and what people did claiming the name of Communism.

LOL, that's been my point to you, Skippy.

So....? What?

If that was your point, why didn't you just say it?

I did. Communists are lying to you. No kidding.

Well it was you saying it, not Communists, unless your point now is that you're a Communist.

You didn't say it, hence why it took me a load of posts just to wring it out of you.

So what is your point. Why are you telling me that there's a difference between the theoretical Communism and Communism put in practice exactly?

Your position seems to be that any attempt to make communism a reality that doesn't turn out to be the paradise claimed by communism is not real communism. That's propaganda. Communism can't be put into practice because it's impossible. Any attempt to do so will require all manner of makeshift adaptations, compromises and abandoning of principle. Furthermore, the amount of power communism give to its administrators always leads to tragic results.

Communism is a triangle with four corners. If you tell someone to draw such a creature, the result will never be what the designer intended. He himself couldn't even tell you how to draw it. Marx also did not tell anyone how to implement communism. All he could do is attack capitalism.

The claim that Stalin wasn't a communist because his attempt to implement it didn't match the delusions of the pinko professors is a non-argument. There can never be a real world example that matches their delusions, just as there can never be a triangle with four sides.

 

[bripat9643]

If you can't believe them, then who can you believe? I certainly see no reason to take the word of a bunch of forum commies.

Do you believe someone when they tell you something that is clearly not true? Who can you believe? Hardly anyone, especially not politicians.

You say you see no reason to take the word of a bunch of commies, so why would you believe Stalin when he says he was a Communist?

When someone says that Stalin was a conservative, anyone can see that is clearly not true. I believe Stalin because all the evidence indicates he was a commie. For one thing, he was a member of the communist party almost his entire life.

That doesn't make him a liberal. Stalin was raised in a conservative household, attended Georgian Orthodox Seminary and was a big believer in Darwinism...survival of the fittest or richest. He restricted divorce, banned abortions and was vehemently opposed by the left in Russia led by Trotsky.

It makes him a left-winger. Social Darwinism was a doctrine dreamed up by the left in this country. Margaret Sanger and Woodrow Wilson were both advocates of social Darwinism. When someone becomes an absolute dictator, it's ridiculous to call any of his policies "conservative." They are simply expressions of his dictatorial whim.

 

[Bfgrn]

The confusion is massive here...

The Difference Between Socialism and Communism

Liberals want the decision to be spread out among more people, preferably everyone; conservatives want the decision to be made by as few people as possible, preferably just one.

Socialism, as envisioned by Marx and Engels was, ideally, a where everyone would share the benefits of industrialization. Workers would do better than in the English system at the time (The Communist Manifesto was published in 1848) because there were more workers than bosses and the majority would rule. As a purely economic system, socialism is a lousy way to run a large scale economy. Socialism is not a political system, it's a way of distributing goods and services. At their ideal implementation, socialism and laissez faire capitalism will be identical as everyone will produce exactly what's needed for exactly who needs it. In practice, both work sometimes in microeconomic conditions but fail miserably when applied to national and international economies. And they fail for the same reason: Human perversity. Too many people don't like to play fair, and both systems only work when everyone follow the same rules.

Socialism is liberal. More people (preferably everyone) have some say in how the economy works. Democracy is liberal. More people (preferably everyone) have some say in how the government works. "Democracy," said Marx, "is the road to socialism." He was wrong about how economics and politics interact, but he did see their similar underpinnings.

Communism is conservative. Fewer and fewer people (preferably just the Party Secretary) have any say in how the economy works. Republicans are conservative. Fewer and fewer people (preferably just people controlling the Party figurehead) have any say in how the government works. The conservatives in the US are in the same position as the communists in the 30s, and for the same reason: Their revolutions failed spectacularly but they refuse to admit what went wrong.

A common mistake is to confuse Socialism, the economic system, with Communism, the political system. Communists are "socialist" in the same way that Republicans are "compassionate conservatives". That is, they give lip service to ideals they have no intention of practicing.

Communism, or "scientific socialism", has very little to do with Marx. Communism was originally envisioned by Marx and Engels as the last stages of their socialist revolution. "The meaning of the word communism shifted after 1917, when Vladimir Lenin and his Bolshevik Party seized power in Russia. The Bolsheviks changed their name to the Communist Party and installed a repressive, single-party regime devoted to the implementation of socialist policies." (quote from Encarta.). Those socialist policies were never implemented.

Whereas Marx saw industrialized workers rising up to take over control of their means of production, the exact opposite happened. Most countries that have gone Communist have been agrarian underdeveloped nations. The prime example is the Soviet Union. The best thing to be said about the October Revolution in 1917 is that the new government was better than the Tsars. The worst thing is that they trusted the wrong people, notably Lenin, to lead this upheaval. The Soviet Union officially abandoned socialism in 1921 when Lenin instituted the New Economic Policy allowing for taxation, local trade, some state capitalism... and extreme profiteering. Later that year, he purged 259,000 from the party membership and therefore purged them from voting (shades of the US election of 2000!) and fewer and fewer people were involved in making decisions.

 

[bripat9643]

Fabian socialists have been filling your head with mush for decades trying to support the contention that there is a right wing totalitarian government system, and a corresponding left wing totalitarian system. That the left and right are somehow different.

The facts are that that "theory" is totally wrong. There are merely two types of government. Total government control, and anarchy. That's it. When you are talking about Hitler, Stalin and Mao, and all those like them...you are describing the same house floor plan. All you are arguing about is the paint on the walls.

There is a lot of stuff that is said and a lot of people take stuff in.

On the other hand I've experienced a lot, I've lived in some of these countries, among people who lived during these times, but also seen for myself what has happened.

Extremism is extremism. However there are many different ways of implementing extremism. Stalinism was different to what came after him in the USSR, which is different to what Putin is doing, which was clearly different to what Mao was doing, and totally different to what Hitler was doing.

Yes, they subjugated people, but not in the same ways, there are similarities, but to simply pass of history as all just being rather the same is advocating ignorance.

The differences are trivial and irrelevant. The only thing that matters is that leftists gave them the power to impose their whims on the population. They are all different flavours of ice-cream.