Ten Gun Myths and Memes-- Shot Down

[GeoLaureate8]

Not at all, I think that America is fucked. There is no going back.

Quit dancing around that fact that you want all guns banned and gun confiscation.

He didn't say will we be a gun-free society, he said you want a gun-free society.


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[skookerasbil]

Im laughing...........to make a statement "countries that do not allow gun ownership have lower murder rates." indicates somebody who envisions the United States as a country that might someday be a gunless country.


Ooooooops

I don't think that's the point here. At least not for me.
The point is simpler than it might look: to demythtify the myths so we can see how things really work in human experience and psychology. If we determine that a lesser availability of guns means less violence, does that mean we have to lessen the availability of guns? Not necessarily, and I don't think that's effective if the mentality is still there.

We've had white sugar and fried foods readily available too, but over time as we see the deleterious effects thereof, we voluntarily started backing away. Nobody had to ban sugar for that to happen.

The point here is not any kind of "gun grab" and I know before even going back through the thread that some are going to choose to interpret it that way. Don't overthink it; the point is simply to understand how things really work through an honest and fact-based approach rather than through explosive emotional hype. It's to raise consciousness above the guessing-game level.

What we then do with that understanding is another and entirely separate separate question. Before we even address that step we need a starting point based on tangible truths.

Thank you all for participating in this; I'll catch up and jump back in when I get time.

indeed.....but far left guys look at the world fromt he perspective that if we try hard enough to collectively "understand" something, the outcome will be necessarily better. In fact, those on the left look at the whole gun issue from a purely emotional standpoint, with alot riding on how they wish a society can be. Others look at the world and have long ago disgarded the BS shoveled by thinkers like PLato, Hobbes and Moore et. al.. Idea's a great, but they suck if not ever placed under the scrutiny of examining the results.

I refer to this as having "connect the dots issues". Anybody who thinks that you eradicate the Aurora's and Sandy Hooks by banning guns is somebody who's feet are not firmly on the ground........or unable to connect the dots. No "psychology" to understand there.

There are 10's of millions ( ie:not fringe politically) who absolutely will NEVER ever go for gun registration in this country, thus, politically, it is 100% infeasible.......100%. In fact, many many Dems in the house heading to 2014 will most certainly not be backing weapons ban related legislation. Why? Because if they do, they are out.( thank heavens for the massive GOP victories at the governors levels leading to redistricting)


So really......in the end, the whole discussion is akin to group navel contemplation here.!!

 

[RDD_1210]

Quite frankly I put little stock in statistics when it comes to guns.

I grew up shooting with people who shoot and own guns and no one not one person I have ever met has injured himself or someone else with a gun. No one has brandished a gun at his or her spouse during a argument, no one has committed suicide etc.

Those numbers just don't jive with my life experience.

And I've never been to China so obviously it doesn't exist.

 

[GeoLaureate8]

You are afraid to mention other European countries. Are you one of those limpwristers?

Here's one:

Switzerland One of the Safest Places Despite Armed Populace | Travel Splendid

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This is part of their national service. Comparing Switzerland and the United States is ridiculous, totally different societies.

I was comparing it to the rest of Europe, particularly the U.K.

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[theHawk]

Ten Gun Myths Shot Down in a Hail of • • • bullets ​

• Myth #1: They're coming for your guns.
Fact-check: No one knows the exact number of guns in America, but it's clear there's no practical way to round them all up (never mind that no one in Washington is proposing this). Yet if you fantasize about rifle-toting citizens facing down the government, you'll rest easy knowing that America's roughly 80 million gun owners already have the feds and cops outgunned by a factor of around 79 to 1. (chart)

• Myth #2: Guns don't kill people—people kill people.
Fact-check: People with more guns tend to kill more people—with guns. The states with the highest gun ownership rates have a gun murder rate 114% higher than those with the lowest gun ownership rates...

Myth #3: An armed society is a polite society.
Fact-check: Drivers who carry guns are 44% more likely than unarmed drivers to make obscene gestures at other motorists, and 77% more likely to follow them aggressively.

• Among Texans convicted of serious crimes, those with concealed-handgun licenses were sentenced for threatening someone with a firearm 4.8 times more than those without...​

• Myth #4: More good guys with guns can stop rampaging bad guys.
Fact-check: Mass shootings stopped by armed civilians in the past 30 years: 0

• Chances that a shooting at an ER involves guns taken from guards: 1 in 5.​

• Myth #5: Keeping a gun at home makes you safer.
Fact-check: Owning a gun has been linked to higher risks of homicide, suicide, and accidental death by gun.

• For every time a gun is used in self-defense in the home, there are 7 assaults or murders, 11 suicide attempts, and 4 accidents involving guns in or around a home...​

• Myth #6: Carrying a gun for self-defense makes you safer.
Fact-check: In 2011, nearly 10 times more people were shot and killed in arguments than by civilians trying to stop a crime.

• In one survey, nearly 1% of Americans reported using guns to defend themselves or their property. However, a closer look at their claims found that more than 50% involved using guns in an aggressive manner, such as escalating an argument.
• A Philadelphia study found that the odds of an assault victim being shot were 4.5 times greater if he carried a gun. His odds of being killed were 4.2 times greater.​

• Myth #7: Guns make women safer.
Fact-check: In 2010, nearly 6 times more women were shot by husbands, boyfriends, and ex-partners than murdered by male strangers...

• Myth #8: "Vicious, violent video games" deserve more blame than guns.
Fact-check: So said NRA executive vice president Wayne LaPierre after Newtown. So what's up with Japan?
(chart/resource in link - wont behave here)

• Myth #9: More and more Americans are becoming gun owners.
Fact-check: More guns are being sold, but they're owned by a shrinking portion of the population...

• Around 80% of gun owners are men. On average they own 7.9 guns each...​

• Myth #10: We don't need more gun laws—we just need to enforce the ones we have.
Fact-check: Weak laws and loopholes backed by the gun lobby make it easier to get guns illegally.

• Around 40% of all legal gun sales involve private sellers and don't require background checks. 40% of prison inmates who used guns in their crimes got them this way.
• An investigation found 62% of online gun sellers were willing to sell to buyers who said they couldn't pass a background check...​

Links for substantiation of all points, charts, further point narratives at the article link here.

Here's one of them pertaining to Myth 2, particularly illustrative:

Also worth a look is this chart from one of the resources, listing the world's countries ranked by rate of gun ownership (i.e. how armed we are). Take a look at how far ahead we are.

Topic armed and dangerous, unlocked and loaded. Bring it on.

Classic, its start off by saying "They're coming for your guns" is false, and then goes on to list a bunch of bogus reason to support the gun-grabber agenda.

Nothing you listed is basis for overturning the second amendment.

Thx bye.

 

[GeoLaureate8]

Libs can't stand facts like this:

Chicago murder rate far worse since strict gun control - Washington Times



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[The2ndAmendment]

2nd Amendement -

The Department of Justice's National Crime Victimization Survey reports that the probability of serious injury from an attack is 2.5 times greater for women offering no resistance than for women resisting with a gun. Men also benefit from using a gun, but the benefits are smaller: offering no
resistance is 1.4 times more likely to result in serious injury than resisting with a gun.

Can we see a link for this study?

You are far more likely to survive
a violent assault if you defend yourself with a gun.

Resisting with a gun 6%
Did nothing at all 25%
Resisted with a knife 40%
Non-violent resistance 45%

U.S. Department of Justice, Law Enforcement Assistance Administration, Rape Victimization in 26 American Cities, 1979 60
Department of Justice's National Crime Victimization Survey 61
U.S. Department of Justice 62
U.S. Department of Justice 63
British Home Office – no a pro-gun organization by any mean

From these same studies.

Of the 2,500,000 annual self-defense cases using guns, more than 7.7% are by women
defending themselves against sexual abuse.
Fact:
When a woman was armed with a gun or knife, only 3% of the attempted rapes are
successful, compared to 32% when unarmed.

Fact:
The probability of serious injury from an attack is 2.5 times greater for women offering no
resistance than for women resisting with a gun. Men also benefit from using a gun, but the
benefits are smaller: offering no resistance is 1.4 times more likely to result in serious injury than
resisting with a gun.

Fact:
27% of women keep a gun in the house.

Fact:
37.6 million women either own or have rapid access to guns.

Fact:
In 1966 the city of Orlando responded to a wave of sexual assaults by offering firearms
training classes to women. The number of rapes dropped by nearly 90%.

https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/Digitization/55878NCJRS.pdf

 

[skookerasbil]

2nd Amendement -

The Department of Justice's National Crime Victimization Survey reports that the probability of serious injury from an attack is 2.5 times greater for women offering no resistance than for women resisting with a gun. Men also benefit from using a gun, but the benefits are smaller: offering no
resistance is 1.4 times more likely to result in serious injury than resisting with a gun.

Can we see a link for this study?

You are far more likely to survive
a violent assault if you defend yourself with a gun.

Resisting with a gun 6%
Did nothing at all 25%
Resisted with a knife 40%
Non-violent resistance 45%

U.S. Department of Justice, Law Enforcement Assistance Administration, Rape Victimization in 26 American Cities, 1979 60
Department of Justice's National Crime Victimization Survey 61
U.S. Department of Justice 62
U.S. Department of Justice 63
British Home Office – no a pro-gun organization by any mean

From these same studies.

Of the 2,500,000 annual self-defense cases using guns, more than 7.7% are by women
defending themselves against sexual abuse.
Fact:
When a woman was armed with a gun or knife, only 3% of the attempted rapes are
successful, compared to 32% when unarmed.

Fact:
The probability of serious injury from an attack is 2.5 times greater for women offering no
resistance than for women resisting with a gun. Men also benefit from using a gun, but the
benefits are smaller: offering no resistance is 1.4 times more likely to result in serious injury than
resisting with a gun.

Fact:
27% of women keep a gun in the house.

Fact:
37.6 million women either own or have rapid access to guns.

Fact:
In 1966 the city of Orlando responded to a wave of sexual assaults by offering firearms
training classes to women. The number of rapes dropped by nearly 90%.

win

 

[NoNukes]

Not at all, I think that America is fucked. There is no going back.

Quit dancing around that fact that you want all guns banned and gun confiscation.

He didn't say will we be a gun-free society, he said you want a gun-free society.


.

Who is HE?

I left the United States 16 years ago. You all do whatever you want with your guns. My family lives in a much safer place.

Do not try to tell people what they think, you are not very good at it.

 

[The2ndAmendment]

win

Thanks bro, gave you rep. These gun grabbers have been slandering me with neg rep since I started giving them cold hard facts. Give me some rep!

Also, I'll be happy to get into that far of detail and citation for ANY OTHER MYTH in the OP. Come at me bro.

 

[Bigfoot]

There is a Bill submitted in the state of Oregon right now that features warrentless searches of homes if someone happens to own a scary black bang bang. If it passes residents will only be allowed to own one scary black bang bang and if they own more then one they will be required to turn them into the authorities. They are also legally bound to WARRANT LESS searches of their homes.

So point #1 is FALSE. Yes they are attempting to come for people's guns. They are also not doing it in any sensible manner but are basing their decisions on emotion by allowing the exact same rifles to be legal if they do not have the scary features. The people writing these Bills are often just like the anti-gun screamers we have on this forum as they base their claims on emotions and cherry picked data rather then reality. I am completely amazed at how many people that haven't a clue about firearms are involved in trying to take them from law abiding citizens. They could do some good by combating criminals and get gun owners full support if they were providing sensible worthwhile actions.

 

[GeoLaureate8]

Not at all, I think that America is fucked. There is no going back.

Quit dancing around that fact that you want all guns banned and gun confiscation.

He didn't say will we be a gun-free society, he said you want a gun-free society.


.

Who is HE?

I left the United States 16 years ago. You all do whatever you want with your guns. My family lives in a much safer place.

Do not try to tell people what they think, you are not very good at it.

More dancing around the fact that you think America would be better off a gun-free society.


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[GeoLaureate8]

@NoNukes

Would America be better off a gun-free society? Yes or No.


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[Bigfoot]

You are afraid to mention other European countries. Are you one of those limpwristers?

Here's one:

Switzerland One of the Safest Places Despite Armed Populace | Travel Splendid

.

This is part of their national service. Comparing Switzerland and the United States is ridiculous, totally different societies.

LOL but you guys want to compare the US to every other country that you think supports your red herring arguments.

 

[theHawk]

The UK has/had a sslightly higher rate of assaults, but a homicide rate around 1/4 that of the US.

Which is EXACTLY the problem for the US. The UK may be a more violent society - but people don't get killed there.

Guess where all the homicides in the U.S. happen? Cities with strict gun control.

Chicago murder rate far worse since strict gun control - Washington Times

It's not fair to say the U.S., a gun rights nation, has a high rate of homicides when the homicide is happening in gun controlled areas.

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Bingo. Its funny how the only places that have "gun problems" are areas with strict gun control, and minority areas like DC. Liberals argue that gun control in DC doesn't work because the guns come from Virginia. OK, then why aren't the white suburbs of Virginia drenched in gun violence if guns are available there? Oh....wait, no one wants to talk about that.

We don't have a "gun problem" in America, we have a criminal problem. Liberals have fucked up our Judicial system so much that criminals are released back into the population when common sense says they should be locked up. Add to that the mental cases we no longer lock up, we just put them on medication.


People can bring up whatever statistics they want from different countries when it comes to gun control and violence. But the truth is there are other factors that are even more important than what gun control laws they have. Do they actually lock up violent criminals on first conviction? Or do they let them walk after little or no time like the US does?

 

[Saigon]

BigFoot -

Why not compare like-with-like?

Why not compare the US with countries like Germany, the UK, France, Canada or Australia.

We both know why you don't want to do that.

Insisting on comparing the US with Switzerland, Cuba, Luxembourg or Fiji is simply dishonest and childish. Obviously.

 

[Katzndogz]

obama is ratcheting up his lie machine.

GOP lawmaker: Obama using fake Twitter messages in fight over gun control - The Hill's Floor Action

 

[Saigon]

You are afraid to mention other European countries. Are you one of those limpwristers?

Here's one:

Switzerland One of the Safest Places Despite Armed Populace | Travel Splendid

.

Childish. Dishonest. Stupid.

 

[Bigfoot]

BigFoot -

Why not compare like-with-like?

Why not compare the US with countries like Germany, the UK, France, Canada or Australia.

We both know why you don't want to do that.

Insisting on comparing the US with Switzerland, Cuba, Luxembourg or Fiji is simply dishonest and childish. Obviously.

It's none of your business to begin with.

 

[Saigon]

It's none of your business to begin with.

Wow, that's one really convincing line of argumentation.

And yet actually Finland faces a very similar situation to the US - we have the 4th highest gun ownership in the developed world - and the homicide rate to match. We also have a problem with school shootings.

The only difference is that here we seem to be able to discuss facts without paranoia.