Texas Voter ID Law Blocked

[Full-Auto]

I'm inclined to think that certain practical differences (of which there are many between ballots and concealed firearms) motivate differences in regulating them. Moreover, even under recent Supreme Court jurisprudence (which struck down total handgun bans) I don't consider carrying concealed weapons in public a Constitutional right.

There are some differences.

A firearm can cause arm to a limited amount of people but a vote can harm generations.

A right-thinking conservative would DEMAND evidence of the need for a new law.

I don't see that here.

Please provide evidence we need Voter ID. Please provide evidence of voter fraud which is not the result of improper voter registration management and can only be fixed by Voter ID.

Convince me you are not an Un-Conservative.

I am who I am. Surprising you as it may, but political spectrum tests place me smack dab in the middle. A Bulls eye if you will.

I have challenged many to compare with the test of their choice. How about you?

 

[thereisnospoon]

How does one board a plane these days without a photo ID?

Federal LAW requires that ALL States ensure that all voters be properly identified as legally able to vote. FEDERAL LAW requires States to purge rolls as well. How exactly is requiring a photo ID going to prevent anyone from voting?

A bit off topic, but the answer to your first question is "additional screening" or "two forms of non-photo identification, one of which must have been issued by a state or federal agency": http://www.fodors.com/news/story_928.html. I hope this comes in handy if you ever lose your ID while traveling, as it did for one of my personal acquaintances.

As to how requiring a photo ID is going to prevent someone from voting, I'm not sure why this isn't readily apparent. After all, the stated purpose of such laws is exactly to prevent certain people from voting (ie, ineligible persons). Someone without a photo ID will not generally be allowed to vote. Some such people, who certainly exist (and include eligible voters) will certainly be prevented from voting. Note that to "prevent" something is to stop it from happening, not to make it impossible. So making something harder though not impossible can prevent people from doing it.

Not off topic..In fact the comparison is spot on.
There is no difference.
In fact it is even more important to have voter ID.
It protects the integrity of the election process.
The excuse that voter fraud is not frequent is nonsense.
If just ONE invalid vote is counted, it sets in motion the questioning of the entire process. The free and open elections of our office holders is what separates us from those states which endure dictatorial or tyrannical government. Once the integrity of the electoral process comes into question, the system fails.

 

[MeBelle]

Evidence:
Texas
Dallas County
Melvin Porter, although he died in January 2007, cast a vote in the March 4, 2008 Democratic primary in Dallas County. A subsequent investigation by Texas Watchdog turned up the names of 6,000 dead voters on the Dallas County list of registered voters.[9]
Harris County
More than 4,000 people's names are listed both on Harris County’s voter rolls and also in a federal database of death records, a Texas Watchdog analysis has found.[10]
Dozens have apparently cast ballots from beyond the grave, records since 2004 show. One expert says the number of deceased names used to cast ballots may be higher than what Texas Watchdog’s analysis found. Instances of dead voters’ names being used to cast ballots were most frequent in three elections, the November 2004 general election, the November 2006 general election and the March 2008 Democratic primary, the analysis found.[10]

Dead people voting - Ballotpedia

Dead people on the registered voters list is evidence of...IMPROPER VOTER REGISTRATION MANAGEMENT!

Duh.

Voter ID will not remove dead people from the rolls.

Try again.

Do you read?

"Dozens have apparently cast ballots from beyond the grave, records since 2004 show. One expert says the number of deceased names used to cast ballots may be higher than what Texas Watchdog’s analysis found. Instances of dead voters’ names being used to cast ballots were most frequent in three elections, the November 2004 general election, the November 2006 general election and the March 2008 Democratic primary, the analysis found

The dead are actively voting.

Vel-
Don't waste your time.
G50 already lost this debate in another thread.

 

[thereisnospoon]

The expense? Your excuse is that it would cost too much?

Maybe we should just suspend election day period because of the "expense" it would incur to the taxpayers.....

I dont know my drivers license is spendy, especially needing one to purchase firearms. Then if I want it the same day, the cost of the CCW, brother that 60 bucks hurts

If your point is that $60 is not a burdensome cost to impose as a requirement to vote, poll taxes of substantially smaller amounts have been ruled unconstitutional (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poll_tax_(United_States)).

Oh shut it. It is every adult's responsibility to obtain documents that identify one's self.

 

[TruthSeeker56]

A controversial new Texas law requiring voters to present personal identification before going to the polls has been blocked by the Obama administration.

In a letter Monday to state officials, the Justice Department said the legislation could have a discriminatory effect on Hispanics and other minorities.

The landmark Voting Rights Act of 1965 gives the federal government the power to oversee any changes in voting procedures in states and jurisdictions with a history of voter discrimination.

"Even using the data most favorable to the state, Hispanics disproportionately lack either a driver's license or a personal identification card ... and that disparity is statistically significant," Perez said

Administration blocks Texas voter ID law - CNN.com

We just can't have all of these illegal aliens being forced to PROVE they have the right to vote, by asking for identification.

Can you imagine all of the confusion and head-scratching if all of the DEAD voters had to present identification!

VOTER FRAUD must be protected! It's the ONLY way that the leftists can stay in power.

 

[g5000]

Evidence:
Texas
Dallas County
Melvin Porter, although he died in January 2007, cast a vote in the March 4, 2008 Democratic primary in Dallas County. A subsequent investigation by Texas Watchdog turned up the names of 6,000 dead voters on the Dallas County list of registered voters.[9]
Harris County
More than 4,000 people's names are listed both on Harris County’s voter rolls and also in a federal database of death records, a Texas Watchdog analysis has found.[10]
Dozens have apparently cast ballots from beyond the grave, records since 2004 show. One expert says the number of deceased names used to cast ballots may be higher than what Texas Watchdog’s analysis found. Instances of dead voters’ names being used to cast ballots were most frequent in three elections, the November 2004 general election, the November 2006 general election and the March 2008 Democratic primary, the analysis found.[10]

Dead people voting - Ballotpedia

Dead people on the registered voters list is evidence of...IMPROPER VOTER REGISTRATION MANAGEMENT!

Duh.

Voter ID will not remove dead people from the rolls.

Try again.

Do you read?

"Dozens have apparently cast ballots from beyond the grave, records since 2004 show. One expert says the number of deceased names used to cast ballots may be higher than what Texas Watchdog’s analysis found. Instances of dead voters’ names being used to cast ballots were most frequent in three elections, the November 2004 general election, the November 2006 general election and the March 2008 Democratic primary, the analysis found

The dead are actively voting.

I see you need small words.

To vote, you have to be on a list. This list is called the "voter registration roll". You get on this list before election day. If you are not on this list on election day, you cannot vote.

So if a dead person is on the list, then the people who take care of that list screwed up. If you take the dead people off the list, then dead people cannot vote. That is the problem that needs to be fixed. Voter ID will not take dead people off the registered voters list.

And no new law needs to be made. And you do not need Voter ID.

And so...you have not shown a problem that can only be solved by Voter ID. You have not shown a need for it.

 

[ladyliberal]

The DOJ's logic is perfectly sound, and I don't see an effective way for the courts to overrule them short of overturning the VRA (which they have thus far seemed reluctant to do).

Perry's claim that the law

requires nothing more extensive than the type of photo identification necessary to receive a library card or board an airplane

is false, calling into question his familiarity with one or more of the activities he mentioned. While the preferred method of obtaining a library card or boarding a plane does involve producing government-issued photo ID, either may be done somewhat less conveniently without such ID. The Texas law is more restrictive.

"The DOJ's logic is perfectly sound"..
How so? What is it you liberals have against honesty and integrity?

Texas has the burden of proving that the law would not have the effect (not intent) of discriminating on the basis of race. The record clearly shows that currently the law would disproportionately prevent Hispanics from voting. Texas rebuts this by arguing that at some point in the future they will issue millions of ID cards in a non-burdensome way to address this issue. To say that they have not proved (a very high burden) that they can and will accomplish this is an understatement.

Note that the issue is not whether Texas's law is constitutional: under current jurisprudence it may very well be. The issue is whether it violates the VRA.

 

[The T]

There are some differences.

A firearm can cause arm to a limited amount of people but a vote can harm generations.

Learn it, Live it, Know it.

When I tried to estimate the relative dangers of a gun and a ballot in another thread (http://www.usmessageboard.com/polit...oppose-requiring-a-photo-id-for-voting-5.html) I found that the potential danger (as opposed to the actual harm, which I have no idea how to fairly quantify) of a gun vastly exceeds that of a ballot. Either one, though, can cause harm that echoes for generations.

Guns=Legitimacy of Ballots? Really?

 

[thereisnospoon]

A right-thinking conservative would DEMAND evidence of the need for a new law.

I don't see that here.

Please provide evidence we need Voter ID. Please provide evidence of voter fraud which is not the result of improper voter registration management and can only be fixed by Voter ID.

Convince me you are not an Un-Conservative.

Evidence:
Texas
Dallas County
Melvin Porter, although he died in January 2007, cast a vote in the March 4, 2008 Democratic primary in Dallas County. A subsequent investigation by Texas Watchdog turned up the names of 6,000 dead voters on the Dallas County list of registered voters.[9]
Harris County
More than 4,000 people's names are listed both on Harris County’s voter rolls and also in a federal database of death records, a Texas Watchdog analysis has found.[10]
Dozens have apparently cast ballots from beyond the grave, records since 2004 show. One expert says the number of deceased names used to cast ballots may be higher than what Texas Watchdog’s analysis found. Instances of dead voters’ names being used to cast ballots were most frequent in three elections, the November 2004 general election, the November 2006 general election and the March 2008 Democratic primary, the analysis found.[10]

Dead people voting - Ballotpedia

Dead people on the registered voters list is evidence of...IMPROPER VOTER REGISTRATION MANAGEMENT!

Duh.

Voter ID will not remove dead people from the list of authorized voters.

Try again.

Sure it will. If one shows an ID of a person other than the named registered voter, they cannot vote. If they show up with the ID of a dead person well not only will they be charged with voter fraud but the crime of identity theft as well. See how that works? Voter ID is a deterrent to fraud.
Why is it you people are opposed to integrity and honesty?

 

[Vel]

Dead people on the registered voters list is evidence of...IMPROPER VOTER REGISTRATION MANAGEMENT!

Duh.

Voter ID will not remove dead people from the rolls.

Try again.

Do you read?

"Dozens have apparently cast ballots from beyond the grave, records since 2004 show. One expert says the number of deceased names used to cast ballots may be higher than what Texas Watchdog’s analysis found. Instances of dead voters’ names being used to cast ballots were most frequent in three elections, the November 2004 general election, the November 2006 general election and the March 2008 Democratic primary, the analysis found

The dead are actively voting.

I see you need small words.

To vote, you have to be on a list. This list is called the "voter registration roll". You get on this list before election day. If you are not on this list on election day, you cannot vote.

So if a dead person is on the list, then the people who take care of that list screwed up. If you take the dead people off the list, then dead people cannot vote.

And no new law needs to be made. And you do not need Voter ID.

And so...you have not shown a problem that can only be solved by Voter ID. You have not shown a need for it.

Unless you have a way to cull people from the voting rolls as soon as the breath leaves their body, then you still need voter I.D to be certain that the dead don't vote. What are you afraid of in an election that makes certain that people are who they claim to be BEFORE they vote?

 

[g5000]

Evidence:
Texas
Dallas County
Melvin Porter, although he died in January 2007, cast a vote in the March 4, 2008 Democratic primary in Dallas County. A subsequent investigation by Texas Watchdog turned up the names of 6,000 dead voters on the Dallas County list of registered voters.[9]
Harris County
More than 4,000 people's names are listed both on Harris County’s voter rolls and also in a federal database of death records, a Texas Watchdog analysis has found.[10]
Dozens have apparently cast ballots from beyond the grave, records since 2004 show. One expert says the number of deceased names used to cast ballots may be higher than what Texas Watchdog’s analysis found. Instances of dead voters’ names being used to cast ballots were most frequent in three elections, the November 2004 general election, the November 2006 general election and the March 2008 Democratic primary, the analysis found.[10]

Dead people voting - Ballotpedia

Dead people on the registered voters list is evidence of...IMPROPER VOTER REGISTRATION MANAGEMENT!

Duh.

Voter ID will not remove dead people from the list of authorized voters.

Try again.

Sure it will. If one shows an ID of a person other than the named registered voter, they cannot vote. If they show up with the ID of a dead person well not only will they be charged with voter fraud but the crime of identity theft as well. See how that works? Voter ID is a deterrent to fraud.
Why is it you people are opposed to integrity and honesty?

There is no integrity if dead people are on the registered voters list. Voter ID does not fix that problem.

Actually removing the names of dead people off the list will solve the actual problem.

So...no one has yet to prove the need for this Un-Conservative new law.

They have certainly proven that voter registration needs to be better managed.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Do you read?

"Dozens have apparently cast ballots from beyond the grave, records since 2004 show. One expert says the number of deceased names used to cast ballots may be higher than what Texas Watchdog’s analysis found. Instances of dead voters’ names being used to cast ballots were most frequent in three elections, the November 2004 general election, the November 2006 general election and the March 2008 Democratic primary, the analysis found

The dead are actively voting.

I see you need small words.

To vote, you have to be on a list. This list is called the "voter registration roll". You get on this list before election day. If you are not on this list on election day, you cannot vote.

So if a dead person is on the list, then the people who take care of that list screwed up. If you take the dead people off the list, then dead people cannot vote.

And no new law needs to be made. And you do not need Voter ID.

And so...you have not shown a problem that can only be solved by Voter ID. You have not shown a need for it.

Unless you have a way to cull people from the voting rolls as soon as the breath leaves their body, then you still need voter I.D to be certain that the dead don't vote. What are you afraid of in an election that makes certain that people are who they claim to be BEFORE they vote?

The same people opposed to voter ID are opposed to culling the rolls also. Or have we forgotten all the claims about past elections were rolls were LEGALLY culled per FEDERAL Guidelines?

As to the claim that simply culling the rolls would suffice would has to be brain dead to believe that, it would require a comprehensive culling before EVER single election no matter how small or big. And still dead people could vote because that information takes time to move from one Government office to another. Assuming it even gets reported.

 

[ladyliberal]

I dont know my drivers license is spendy, especially needing one to purchase firearms. Then if I want it the same day, the cost of the CCW, brother that 60 bucks hurts

If your point is that $60 is not a burdensome cost to impose as a requirement to vote, poll taxes of substantially smaller amounts have been ruled unconstitutional (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poll_tax_(United_States)).

His point is his 2nd Amendment right to own possess and carry a weapon REQUIRES he have a State or Federal picture ID which is not free.

Requiring photo ID is neither burdensome nor constitutes a poll tax. One must have ID to register. I don't see you complaining about THAT requirement.

All a photo ID does is prevents people from illegally voting. In fact with the concept of provisional ballots no ID does not even stop them from voting.

In general, a photo ID is not required to register to vote (http://www.eac.gov/assets/1/Documents/National_Mail_Voter_Registration_Form_English_2.15.20121.pdf), though it is in some places. I'm not discussing all voting requirements in this thread because this thread's topic is about the DOJ challenge to the Texas law under the VRA, not about registering to vote in general.

Requiring a photo ID that costs money (the scenario I was describing) to vote is transparently a poll tax.

Requiring photo ID does things other than preventing people from voting illegally. At the least it requires eligible voters without ID to obtain ID. More to the point, it prevents many eligible voters from voting.

Provisional ballots do not relieve a substantial part of the burden of voting. Photo ID still has to be presented, and in a time frame generally too narrow to allow it to be obtained easily after casting the ballot: 86 percent of photo ID-related provisional ballots tossed out in Nashville - Nashville Elections | Examiner.com

 

[thereisnospoon]

The DOJ's logic is perfectly sound, and I don't see an effective way for the courts to overrule them short of overturning the VRA (which they have thus far seemed reluctant to do).

Perry's claim that the law



is false, calling into question his familiarity with one or more of the activities he mentioned. While the preferred method of obtaining a library card or boarding a plane does involve producing government-issued photo ID, either may be done somewhat less conveniently without such ID. The Texas law is more restrictive.

"The DOJ's logic is perfectly sound"..
How so? What is it you liberals have against honesty and integrity?

Texas has the burden of proving that the law would not have the effect (not intent) of discriminating on the basis of race. The record clearly shows that currently the law would disproportionately prevent Hispanics from voting. Texas rebuts this by arguing that at some point in the future they will issue millions of ID cards in a non-burdensome way to address this issue. To say that they have not proved (a very high burden) that they can and will accomplish this is an understatement.

Note that the issue is not whether Texas's law is constitutional: under current jurisprudence it may very well be. The issue is whether it violates the VRA.

No, it does not. Those challenging voter ID laws have played the race card as a deflection to evade the actual issue.
The race aspect should be ignored as this is not about race. And no matter how many studies and statistics the dissenters from integrity and honesty dig up, it's irrelevant.
I am sick and tired of people who oppose common sense using the term "disproportionately" for their own purposes. Use of that term presupposes an act is deliberate. With voter ID there is no attempt deliberate or otherwise to deny voting rights to any legitimate adult that is not a convicted felon or a non citizen.

 

[g5000]

The same people opposed to voter ID are opposed to culling the rolls also.

No one is opposed to culling dead people from the rolls.

Or have we forgotten all the claims about past elections were rolls were LEGALLY culled per FEDERAL Guidelines?

The culling of the rolls of which you speak was when registered voters were mailed a notice that said they had to RSVP or be removed from the voter registration list.

 

[ladyliberal]

Learn it, Live it, Know it.

When I tried to estimate the relative dangers of a gun and a ballot in another thread (http://www.usmessageboard.com/polit...oppose-requiring-a-photo-id-for-voting-5.html) I found that the potential danger (as opposed to the actual harm, which I have no idea how to fairly quantify) of a gun vastly exceeds that of a ballot. Either one, though, can cause harm that echoes for generations.

Guns=Legitimacy of Ballots? Really?

I do not understand the question, including whether it is rhetorical. Could you elaborate?

 

[g5000]

As to the claim that simply culling the rolls would suffice would has to be brain dead to believe that, it would require a comprehensive culling before EVER single election no matter how small or big. And still dead people could vote because that information takes time to move from one Government office to another. Assuming it even gets reported.

Then how do we know dead people voted?

Because someone cross-checked. In fact, they were not only able to find out who died that was on the list, they were able to find out they voted.

So it is not as difficult as you are trying to make it sound.

If they were able to cross-check, then so could anyone else.

 

[ladyliberal]

"The DOJ's logic is perfectly sound"..
How so? What is it you liberals have against honesty and integrity?

Texas has the burden of proving that the law would not have the effect (not intent) of discriminating on the basis of race. The record clearly shows that currently the law would disproportionately prevent Hispanics from voting. Texas rebuts this by arguing that at some point in the future they will issue millions of ID cards in a non-burdensome way to address this issue. To say that they have not proved (a very high burden) that they can and will accomplish this is an understatement.

Note that the issue is not whether Texas's law is constitutional: under current jurisprudence it may very well be. The issue is whether it violates the VRA.

No, it does not. Those challenging voter ID laws have played the race card as a deflection to evade the actual issue.
The race aspect should be ignored as this is not about race. And no matter how many studies and statistics the dissenters from integrity and honesty dig up, it's irrelevant.
I am sick and tired of people who oppose common sense using the term "disproportionately" for their own purposes. Use of that term presupposes an act is deliberate. With voter ID there is no attempt deliberate or otherwise to deny voting rights to any legitimate adult that is not a convicted felon or a non citizen.

I think you might be describing the way you think things ought to be. Under the law race absolutely matters, it's explicitly described in the VRA. In jurisdictions subject to preclearance the intent of the law is not the only issue-- a law with a discriminatory effect, regardless of its intent, must not be cleared. The word "disproportionately" does not in any way presuppose that an act is deliberate. As I used it the word applied to the effect, rather than to the intent.

As I have discussed many times in other threads, eligible voters are prevented from voting by voter ID laws. I don't care to reproduce all the evidence for this position in this thread.

 

[theHawk]

The laws must be sound however. Perhaps a more intelligent legislature would avoid the EXPENSE Texas incurred.

The expense? Your excuse is that it would cost too much?

Maybe we should just suspend election day period because of the "expense" it would incur to the taxpayers.....

Please don't give them the idea.

Immie

Sorry, but sometimes their batshit crazy logic eludes me...

 

[thereisnospoon]

Dead people on the registered voters list is evidence of...IMPROPER VOTER REGISTRATION MANAGEMENT!

Duh.

Voter ID will not remove dead people from the list of authorized voters.

Try again.

Sure it will. If one shows an ID of a person other than the named registered voter, they cannot vote. If they show up with the ID of a dead person well not only will they be charged with voter fraud but the crime of identity theft as well. See how that works? Voter ID is a deterrent to fraud.
Why is it you people are opposed to integrity and honesty?

There is no integrity if dead people are on the registered voters list. Voter ID does not fix that problem.

Actually removing the names of dead people off the list will solve the actual problem.

So...no one has yet to prove the need for this Un-Conservative new law.

They have certainly proven that voter registration needs to be better managed.

Oh please.. Anyone using the name of a dead person to vote is knowingly committing fraud. Voter ID is at least a deterrent if not it goes as far as preventing this.
Your premise states the dead person's name just trots in the door and casts a ballot. No, a LIVE person must present them self to a poll worker, give their name and then place a ballot.
That is a deliberate act. If done in the name of another, it is fraud.