That Gun Totting Evil White Man that shot that poor black teen.

[High_Gravity]

The police report indicates that Zimmerman had wounds on his head, but I haven't seen anything that indicates the boy was suspended from HS or looking for trouble. The kid WAS looking for Skittles and iced tea. Yeah, real trouble there.

The kid was minding his own business. The freaky Zimmerman thought he was up to no good, followed him (within the law), somehow got head injuries, and ended up shooting him.

And, the law seems to allow for this.

That is very wrong, in my book.

The thing that bothers me Si is people are making up things about Trayvon like him being a gangster or suspended from school without any proof whatsoever.

They are working very very hard to make Trayvon the baddie and Zimmerman the Victim with a capital "V".

Yes and they are making up bullshit left and right to make it stick.

 

[High_Gravity]

The problem is, no one is willing to find out exactly what happened. If, in finding out exactly what happened, it is discovered that Zimmerman was acting in self-defense, then what? Should Zimmerman be found guilty whether or not he is guilty simply to satisfy some element of social justice?

I need you to explain to me how he was acting in self defense if he himself was following this boy and stalking him.

If, while Zimmerman was engaged in following Martin, Martin escalated to physical contact, then Zimmerman was acting in self-defense. It COULD be a case of following the kid "asking for trouble" but we don't have laws against asking for trouble. Zimmerman was completely in the wrong for following Treyvon Martin, especially since he had already been told to stop by the dispatcher. However, that STILL does not mean that the attack on Martin was racially motivated. Would this have gone any differently had Martin been white or hispanic? Likely no. A white kid in this predominently black neighborhood would have been even more suspicious to a hispanic living in a mostly black gated community.

Why do you keep saying this gated community was mostly Black? that is not what I read about it, can you give me your source to confirm this?

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

And now his nose was "broken"????? Did they take him to the hospital for Xrays for that?

I loved the " wanted to read the name on a street sign." The dude has lived there for years, and has Eric Cartman-patrolled it for years. THERE ARE THREE (Count 'em THREE!) whole streets in that entire complex.

It must have been a difficult thing to remember, I guess.

"I asked the subject in the red jacket, later identified as George Zimmerman (who was original caller for the suspicious person complaint), if he had seen the subject. Zimmerman stated that he had shot the subject and was still armed. Zimmerman complied with all of my verbal commands and was secured in handcuffs. Located on the inside of Zimmerman's waist band, I removed a black Kel Tek 9mm PF9 semi auto handgun and holster. While I was in such close contact with Zimmerman, I could observe that his back appeared to be wet and was covered in grass, as if he had been laying on his back on the ground. Zimmerman was also bleeding from the nose and back of his head."

"Zimmerman was placed in the rear of my police vehicle and was given first aid by the SFD. While the SFD was attending to Zimmerman, I over heard[sic] him state "I was yelling for someone to help me, but no one would help me." At no point did I question Zimmerman about the incident that had taken place. Once Zimmerman was cleared by the SFD, he was transported to the Sanford Police Department."

form the Police Report

 

[paperview]

And now his nose was "broken"????? Did they take him to the hospital for Xrays for that?

I loved the " wanted to read the name on a street sign." The dude has lived there for years, and has Eric Cartman-patrolled it for years. THERE ARE THREE (Count 'em THREE!) whole streets in that entire complex.

It must have been a difficult thing to remember, I guess.

"I asked the subject in the red jacket, later identified as George Zimmerman (who was original caller for the suspicious person complaint), if he had seen the subject. Zimmerman stated that he had shot the subject and was still armed. Zimmerman complied with all of my verbal commands and was secured in handcuffs. Located on the inside of Zimmerman's waist band, I removed a black Kel Tek 9mm PF9 semi auto handgun and holster. While I was in such close contact with Zimmerman, I could observe that his back appeared to be wet and was covered in grass, as if he had been laying on his back on the ground. Zimmerman was also bleeding from the nose and back of his head."

"Zimmerman was placed in the rear of my police vehicle and was given first aid by the SFD. While the SFD was attending to Zimmerman, I over heard[sic] him state "I was yelling for someone to help me, but no one would help me." At no point did I question Zimmerman about the incident that had taken place. Once Zimmerman was cleared by the SFD, he was transported to the Sanford Police Department."

form the Police Report

I read that days ago. What is your point?

 

[Ravi]

He was a tall, skinny teen. And you are a racist liar.

Other reports say he was on the high school football team, and it doesnt matter anyuway as you admit he was 6'3", but 140?

Jesus Christ, my daughter weighs 120 at 5'3" and she is a gymnist!

You are so stupid you cant see the implausible factoids you throw around likke horse manure on a farm.

BTW, dumbass, do you have any clue why the high school sealed Martins records?

Could it be that there are facts there that would undermine this witch hunt for Zimmerman?

ESADIAF.

I would suspect that the Records are sealed because he was a Minor.

If they were even sealed. Jimmyboy has a habit of making up "facts" much like his fact that Martin was a hulking black threat....and he made that up after a few of us questioned where the can of tea that Martin supposedly used to attack was.

 

[Ravi]

The problem is, no one is willing to find out exactly what happened. If, in finding out exactly what happened, it is discovered that Zimmerman was acting in self-defense, then what? Should Zimmerman be found guilty whether or not he is guilty simply to satisfy some element of social justice?

I need you to explain to me how he was acting in self defense if he himself was following this boy and stalking him.

If, while Zimmerman was engaged in following Martin, Martin escalated to physical contact, then Zimmerman was acting in self-defense. It COULD be a case of following the kid "asking for trouble" but we don't have laws against asking for trouble. Zimmerman was completely in the wrong for following Treyvon Martin, especially since he had already been told to stop by the dispatcher. However, that STILL does not mean that the attack on Martin was racially motivated. Would this have gone any differently had Martin been white or hispanic? Likely no. A white kid in this predominently black neighborhood would have been even more suspicious to a hispanic living in a mostly black gated community.

IF Martin attacked Zimmerman, and that's a big IF, he was justified in doing it under the stand your ground law.

 

[Peach]

I need you to explain to me how he was acting in self defense if he himself was following this boy and stalking him.

If, while Zimmerman was engaged in following Martin, Martin escalated to physical contact, then Zimmerman was acting in self-defense. It COULD be a case of following the kid "asking for trouble" but we don't have laws against asking for trouble. Zimmerman was completely in the wrong for following Treyvon Martin, especially since he had already been told to stop by the dispatcher. However, that STILL does not mean that the attack on Martin was racially motivated. Would this have gone any differently had Martin been white or hispanic? Likely no. A white kid in this predominently black neighborhood would have been even more suspicious to a hispanic living in a mostly black gated community.

IF Martin attacked Zimmerman, and that's a big IF, he was justified in doing it under the stand your ground law.

The right of self defense of MARTIN, the VICTIM, isn't being addressed. I noted that also.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

I need you to explain to me how he was acting in self defense if he himself was following this boy and stalking him.

If, while Zimmerman was engaged in following Martin, Martin escalated to physical contact, then Zimmerman was acting in self-defense. It COULD be a case of following the kid "asking for trouble" but we don't have laws against asking for trouble. Zimmerman was completely in the wrong for following Treyvon Martin, especially since he had already been told to stop by the dispatcher. However, that STILL does not mean that the attack on Martin was racially motivated. Would this have gone any differently had Martin been white or hispanic? Likely no. A white kid in this predominently black neighborhood would have been even more suspicious to a hispanic living in a mostly black gated community.

IF Martin attacked Zimmerman, and that's a big IF, he was justified in doing it under the stand your ground law.

Sure. If I think somebody is following me ,and I ask them what the fuck they are doing following me, I have every right to attack them and beat them until, they pull out a gun. Then it's a clear cut case of racism.

We ALL know white people and Hispanics hate all black people.

 

[MaryL]

The concealed carry permit is not an issue. Much more gun crime is committed by people who do not have a permit than us that do.

Maybe it is. The guy felt emboldened enough because he had that permit , that he pursued and engaged a citizen that was innocent and unarmed. If HE got a permit...this puts a cloud over the permit issue.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Just the facts ma'am

from the police report written before Ravi pulled out her Nancy Grace Fan Club I.D. Credentials:

"I asked the subject in the red jacket, later identified as George Zimmerman (who was original caller for the suspicious person complaint), if he had seen the subject. Zimmerman stated that he had shot the subject and was still armed. Zimmerman complied with all of my verbal commands and was secured in handcuffs. Located on the inside of Zimmerman's waist band, I removed a black Kel Tek 9mm PF9 semi auto handgun and holster. While I was in such close contact with Zimmerman, I could observe that his back appeared to be wet and was covered in grass, as if he had been laying on his back on the ground. Zimmerman was also bleeding from the nose and back of his head."

"Zimmerman was placed in the rear of my police vehicle and was given first aid by the SFD. While the SFD was attending to Zimmerman, I over heard[sic] him state "I was yelling for someone to help me, but no one would help me." At no point did I question Zimmerman about the incident that had taken place. Once Zimmerman was cleared by the SFD, he was transported to the Sanford Police Department."

Other reports say he was on the high school football team, and it doesnt matter anyuway as you admit he was 6'3", but 140?

Jesus Christ, my daughter weighs 120 at 5'3" and she is a gymnist!

You are so stupid you cant see the implausible factoids you throw around likke horse manure on a farm.

BTW, dumbass, do you have any clue why the high school sealed Martins records?

Could it be that there are facts there that would undermine this witch hunt for Zimmerman?

ESADIAF.

I would suspect that the Records are sealed because he was a Minor.

If they were even sealed. Jimmyboy has a habit of making up "facts" much like his fact that Martin was a hulking black threat....and he made that up after a few of us questioned where the can of tea that Martin supposedly used to attack was.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

The concealed carry permit is not an issue. Much more gun crime is committed by people who do not have a permit than us that do.

Maybe it is. The guy felt emboldened enough because he had that permit , that he pursued and engaged a citizen that was innocent and unarmed. If HE got a permit...this puts a cloud over the permit issue.

Emboldened enough to stand his ground and use self defense?

engaging people is NOT a crime. The youth started a verbal confrontation that escalated into a horrific tragedy for all concerned

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Why would a grown man pull out a gun and shoot another person over an argument? Why would a grown man pull out a gun and shoot another person when a physical confrontation ensues?

A grown man would shoot another person during a struggle after a verbally and physically hostile youth discovers a gun on his hip.

I feel bad for the kid. He was mad, he was angry that a Hispanic male was following him. Shit we all know Hispanic males hate black youth

 

[Ravi]

If, while Zimmerman was engaged in following Martin, Martin escalated to physical contact, then Zimmerman was acting in self-defense. It COULD be a case of following the kid "asking for trouble" but we don't have laws against asking for trouble. Zimmerman was completely in the wrong for following Treyvon Martin, especially since he had already been told to stop by the dispatcher. However, that STILL does not mean that the attack on Martin was racially motivated. Would this have gone any differently had Martin been white or hispanic? Likely no. A white kid in this predominently black neighborhood would have been even more suspicious to a hispanic living in a mostly black gated community.

IF Martin attacked Zimmerman, and that's a big IF, he was justified in doing it under the stand your ground law.

Sure. If I think somebody is following me ,and I ask them what the fuck they are doing following me, I have every right to attack them and beat them until, they pull out a gun. Then it's a clear cut case of racism.

We ALL know white people and Hispanics hate all black people.

I'm not responsible for your racism.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

IF Martin attacked Zimmerman, and that's a big IF, he was justified in doing it under the stand your ground law.

Sure. If I think somebody is following me ,and I ask them what the fuck they are doing following me, I have every right to attack them and beat them until, they pull out a gun. Then it's a clear cut case of racism.

We ALL know white people and Hispanics hate all black people.

I'm not responsible for your racism.

wow! this is a big step for you Ravi. Admitting you are not responsible for other people.

Now we'll work on this delusion you have about saving the black man from the evil white Empire

 

[The Gadfly]

I need you to explain to me how he was acting in self defense if he himself was following this boy and stalking him.

If, while Zimmerman was engaged in following Martin, Martin escalated to physical contact, then Zimmerman was acting in self-defense. It COULD be a case of following the kid "asking for trouble" but we don't have laws against asking for trouble. Zimmerman was completely in the wrong for following Treyvon Martin, especially since he had already been told to stop by the dispatcher. However, that STILL does not mean that the attack on Martin was racially motivated. Would this have gone any differently had Martin been white or hispanic? Likely no. A white kid in this predominently black neighborhood would have been even more suspicious to a hispanic living in a mostly black gated community.

IF Martin attacked Zimmerman, and that's a big IF, he was justified in doing it under the stand your ground law.

Not unless Zimmerman attacked him first, Ravi, and that's what we don't know, and may never know with certainty. Zimmerman chasing Martin (unwise though it was) is NOT a crime. Zimmerman asking Martin what he was doing there is NOT a crime. Now IF Zimmerman did in fact grab Martin, or hit Martin, THAT would be a crime (assault and battery) and Martin could legally defend himself. However, there is (so far) no physical evidence or witness testimony that indicates Zimmerman did that. On the other hand, there is BOTH physical evidence and witness testimony that shows Martin DID strike Zimmerman-Zimmerman's injuries (as noted in the police report), and the account of an eyewitness who saw Zimmerman on the ground, on his back, with Martin punching and/or kicking him. That fact is NOT in dispute here; the only question is whether any unlawful act (assault) by Zimmerman preceded the assault by Martin.

BTW I never said that Martin DID IN FACT use the can of tea as a weapon: I simply laid out a scenario consistent with the known facts in which Martin COULD have done so, PROVIDED he had the can in his hand. If the can was in fact found in Martin's pocket instead of in his hand or on the ground, that scenario would be ruled out.

 

[The Gadfly]

The thing that bothers me Si is people are making up things about Trayvon like him being a gangster or suspended from school without any proof whatsoever.

They are working very very hard to make Trayvon the baddie and Zimmerman the Victim with a capital "V".

Yes and they are making up bullshit left and right to make it stick.

Yes HG, some people are and that's wrong. Besides, there's no need for it in the first place. The fact that Martin struck Zimmerman is not in dispute; it's confirmed by both the physical evidence and an eyewitness account. It is likewise uncontroverted that Zimmerman then shot Martin. The legal question here, is whether any evidence can be found that proves Zimmerman committed some unlawful act (such as assaulting Martin) which caused Martin to in turn assault Zimmerman in self defense. Note that chasing and verbally confronting Martin does NOT constitute a violation of law by Zimmerman (unwise though it was). On the other hand the chase and verbal confrontation (absent any physical assault) does not confer on Martin (or anyone else) the legal right to strike Zimmerman (i.e. commit assault and battery), absent an unlawful PHYSICAL act (assault, attempted assault, presenting a weapon unlawfully, etc.), or a direct verbal threat of force (words such as "Im going to kill you!", for example). The way the FL statute is written, it makes no difference that Zimmerman's actions contributed (as they most certainly did) to the ultimate tragic conclusion, so long as none of his actions prior to Martin striking him were unlawful. The real irony here is that, in this particular set of circumstances, Martin's poor judgement ( continuing to hit Zimmerman, when he could have run away, after knocking him down) is punished far more by the law than Zimmerman's poor judgement (a lot less excusable in a 28 year old than a 17 year old, it would seem to me), but the way this statute is written, that's the effective outcome. The moral is that no law can be written for every conceivable circumstance; in this odd case, as Samuel Johnson once observed, "The Law is a ass", and its proper application results in an injustice.

 

[sitarro]

What matters is the circumstances of the shooting and the fact that the local police ignored an obvious murder. The race of the individuals involved are critical because of it being in the south. Were it anywhere else, and the people involved of the same or differant races, and the local police reacted in this manner, it would warrant federal investigation, also.

The asshole was out to kill somebody. Had a concealed carry permit, and was packing heat. When you are in that positon, and you initiate the conflict, you are automatically wrong. When you have just been told to back off, as was the case here, you have committed murder.

Sounds like you were there, did you tell the police what you saw?
The one actual eye witness stated that Zimmerman was hit from behind and slammed to the ground where the football player was beating the crap out of him...... he was the one screaming for help, not the football player. Sounds to me the standard apologist are assuming a lot of things that didn't happen.....ya know how they keep calling him a little boy, I read that he was 6'-3".....not a little boy.
I also don't think you have any idea what the meaning of murder is. Geraldo stated that he has told his kids to not wear hoodies or pants down below their ass, that is typical of what many criminals wear so that there face isn't photographed....... it can make you look like a suspicious person. Why would someone be wearing a hooded sweatshirt in Florida, I doubt it was below 70 degrees that night. I'm not saying that wearing a hood is a reason to get killed but it did help put him in the situation he found himself in, if you are going to dress like a gang member, others may think you are up to no good. I used to wear my hair really long, a lot was assumed about me because of that. Hell, leftist assume that if you are conservative, you are uneducated, white and racist.......that's just not true.

 

[Inthemiddle]

I read that days ago. What is your point?

His point, apparently, is that Zimmerman picks his nose, and the police did not even question him about the incident.

 

[Inthemiddle]

engaging people is NOT a crime. The youth started a verbal confrontation that escalated into a horrific tragedy for all concerned

So, chasing someone down into someone else's back yard is "engaging" people. Asking that person why they are following you is "starting a confrontation" that warrants being shot out of fear of bodily harm.

Do society a couple favors. First of all, get sterilized. We don't need you contributing to the onset of idiocracy. Secondly, got for a walk in Zimmerman's neighborhood, and run away when you see him following you. Then you can come back and tell us how well it went.

 

[Inthemiddle]

A grown man would shoot another person during a struggle

If Zimmerman really were being so violently attacked that he needed to scream the bloody murder heard on the tapes, he wouldn't have been able to pull out his gun, much less wrestle the kid prone to shoot him in the back.

physically hostile youth

This is nothing more than an assumption on your part, which doesn't even make sense considering all the known facts. Even if your contention were true, and Martin did engage in hostility with Zimmerman, at most it would have been Zimmerman who would have had a reason to fear for his safety. He was walking down the street and minding his own business, and this guy comes chasing him down for not apparent reason and corners him in someone's yard. The simple fact of the matter is that Zimmerman chased Martin down. Zimmerman admitted on the 911 tape that he was following after Martin. This fact alone eliminates Zimmerman's ability to claim self defense, because he was the one who created the hostile situation.