The 20-year-old woman drowned after her father stopped lifeguards saving her at a beach in Dubai as

Crazy Sabbath restrictions for Jews leads to death of 7 children

Because of Sabbath regulations, Orthodox Jews are not allowed to turn their oven on or off from Friday sundown to Saturday evening, for that constituteswork, and you can’t work on the Sabbath. The mother was apparently keeping food warm on a hotplate (turned on before Friday sundown), and the hotplate malfunctioned, causing a fire that killed everyone but the father, who was away, as well as the mother and one daughter, who jumped out their second-floor window. Seven other kids died
Crazy Sabbath restrictions for Jews leads to death of 7 children Why Evolution Is True

it is a very unusual accident------one of those rare holiday things like the kind of stuff that happens every Christmas and fourth of july. Your
characterization is very Nazi pig like-----you have managed to characterize your disgusting self

Come in Irosie, let's give credit where credit is due. Fanger just fingered himself by introducing us to this great website of Islamic knowledge:

There s always a but when it comes to Islam Why Evolution Is True

Charlie Hebdo was neither racist nor Islamophobic Why Evolution Is True
 
Israel and Iraq are both Asian countries too
Naaaaah....ya don't say?

TOP DEFINITION

Fanger
To get fingered so hard that you need medical attention.
"Mate, did you hear about Emili being fangered"

"Why is Julie in hospital?"
"Oh, I heard she was fangered"

"A little bit of fanger is good for you"
 
Phoenix, July 2009:

>> Authorities said Thursday that four boys ages 9 to 14 took turns raping an 8-year-old girl behind a shed for more than 10 minutes in what Phoenix police are calling one of the most horrific cases they've ever seen. The outrage over the allegations intensified after police said the girl's parents criticized her after the attack and blamed her for bringing shame on the family.

"The father told the caseworker and an officer in her presence that he didn't want her back. He said, 'Take her, I don't want her,' " police Sgt. Andy Hill said.

.... "This is a deeply disturbing case that has gripped our community," Maricopa County Attorney Andrew Thomas said Thursday. "Our office will seek justice for the young victim in this heartrending situation."

Hill cited the family's background as the reason the family shunned the girl. All five children are refugees from the West African nation of Liberia.

In some parts of Africa, women often are blamed for being raped for enticing men or simply being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Girls who are raped are often shunned by their families.

"It's a shame-based culture, so the crime is not as important as protecting the family name and the name of the community," said Tony Weedor, a Liberian refugee in Littleton, Colo., and co-founder of the CenterPoint International Foundation, which helps Liberians resettle in the U.S. "I just feel so sorry for this little girl. Some of these people will not care about the trauma she's going through - they're more concerned about the shame she brought on the family." <<

If you're scoring at home, or even if you're alone, Liberia is slightly over 85% Christian. If it matters -- which it doesn't. Notice the words "shame-based culture"; doesn't say "shame-based religion", now does it?
 
>> Fighting the scourge of honour killing is a constant political struggle against the patriarchal set-up which we (the people of South Asia) inherited from history, said veteran Indian journalist and human rights activist Jatin Desai on Sunday.

He was speaking at the launching ceremony of the book ‘Honour’ and Women’s Rights – South Asian Perspectives’, which was held at the Karachi Press Club.The book is a compilation of 15 research papers from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Nepal and the South Asian Diasporas living in the UK, US and Canada.

It explores the various dimensions of the centuries-old tradition that considers women as symbols of honour and a “bargaining chip” to settle disputes among clans and tribes and is prevalent to this today [sic], notwithstanding the fact that “some major women-friendly bills have been passed at least in Pakistan in the past six years,” said Anis Haroon, chairperson of National Commission on the Status of Women in Pakistan, who was the guest of honour on the occasion.

.... Gupte claimed that South Asian immigrants living in the West today are increasingly reluctant to use the tag of “honour killing” in cases where a girl is murdered by a next-to-kin when she gathers the courage to transgress the “honour code”.

This is because after 9/11 the term has acquired an “oriental and exotic” colour, which is seen from the distorted lens of Islamphobia, whereas the practice is more of a cultural plague that pervades more or less all the communities of this region, irrespective of faith, Gupte said.

“[In the West] if a local kills a woman in the name of honour, it is murder of passion or domestic violence as opposed to honour killing which is almost exclusively used for people from South Asia,” said Gupte who founded MASUM, a centre for women development in Pune in the year 1987 and is also one of the publishers of the compilation with the IDRC.

The practice stems from the feudal-patriarchal mindset, which is very much a part of the social fabric of South Asia to this day, << --- 'Patriarchal Mindset' is To Blame for Honour Killings
 
Phoenix, July 2009:

>> Authorities said Thursday that four boys ages 9 to 14 took turns raping an 8-year-old girl behind a shed for more than 10 minutes in what Phoenix police are calling one of the most horrific cases they've ever seen. The outrage over the allegations intensified after police said the girl's parents criticized her after the attack and blamed her for bringing shame on the family.

"The father told the caseworker and an officer in her presence that he didn't want her back. He said, 'Take her, I don't want her,' " police Sgt. Andy Hill said.

.... "This is a deeply disturbing case that has gripped our community," Maricopa County Attorney Andrew Thomas said Thursday. "Our office will seek justice for the young victim in this heartrending situation."

Hill cited the family's background as the reason the family shunned the girl. All five children are refugees from the West African nation of Liberia.

In some parts of Africa, women often are blamed for being raped for enticing men or simply being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Girls who are raped are often shunned by their families.

"It's a shame-based culture, so the crime is not as important as protecting the family name and the name of the community," said Tony Weedor, a Liberian refugee in Littleton, Colo., and co-founder of the CenterPoint International Foundation, which helps Liberians resettle in the U.S. "I just feel so sorry for this little girl. Some of these people will not care about the trauma she's going through - they're more concerned about the shame she brought on the family." <<

If you're scoring at home, or even if you're alone, Liberia is slightly over 85% Christian. If it matters -- which it doesn't. Notice the words "shame-based culture"; doesn't say "shame-based religion", now does it?

what point do you imagine you have made?. Liberia is a primitive African country. Christianity ---as far as it exists there---was simply
shoved at a lot of very primitive people who retained their culture of the past. If you ever get a chance to talk to muslims----ask THEM who are THE MOST SOCIALLY ADVANCED PEOPLE IN THE UNIVERSE-----who brought MODERN civilization to the WORLD----
ask some Pakistani about the GLORIOUS highly advanced culture of
the MOGHUL EMPIRE----unsurpassed by anything that ever existed
in the east and who ----in the future will being the most glorious
and highly cultured civilization to the Americas-----including, of course,
women's rights. You guessed right----ISLAM. I learned all about
it in the early 70s when west Pakistan was credited with raping
1/4 million girls in east Pakistan and the red cross was picking them
up------abandoned by their families for being raped. ------no one objected to the abandonment of the raped girls. When I questioned it-------the answer I got was "YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND MY CULTURE" I got that answer from some of the same people who
informed of the GLORIOUS ---highly civilized BS
 
>> Fighting the scourge of honour killing is a constant political struggle against the patriarchal set-up which we (the people of South Asia) inherited from history, said veteran Indian journalist and human rights activist Jatin Desai on Sunday.

He was speaking at the launching ceremony of the book ‘Honour’ and Women’s Rights – South Asian Perspectives’, which was held at the Karachi Press Club.The book is a compilation of 15 research papers from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Nepal and the South Asian Diasporas living in the UK, US and Canada.

It explores the various dimensions of the centuries-old tradition that considers women as symbols of honour and a “bargaining chip” to settle disputes among clans and tribes and is prevalent to this today [sic], notwithstanding the fact that “some major women-friendly bills have been passed at least in Pakistan in the past six years,” said Anis Haroon, chairperson of National Commission on the Status of Women in Pakistan, who was the guest of honour on the occasion.

.... Gupte claimed that South Asian immigrants living in the West today are increasingly reluctant to use the tag of “honour killing” in cases where a girl is murdered by a next-to-kin when she gathers the courage to transgress the “honour code”.

This is because after 9/11 the term has acquired an “oriental and exotic” colour, which is seen from the distorted lens of Islamphobia, whereas the practice is more of a cultural plague that pervades more or less all the communities of this region, irrespective of faith, Gupte said.

“[In the West] if a local kills a woman in the name of honour, it is murder of passion or domestic violence as opposed to honour killing which is almost exclusively used for people from South Asia,” said Gupte who founded MASUM, a centre for women development in Pune in the year 1987 and is also one of the publishers of the compilation with the IDRC.

The practice stems from the feudal-patriarchal mindset, which is very much a part of the social fabric of South Asia to this day, << --- 'Patriarchal Mindset' is To Blame for Honour Killings

BS sorta-------honor killing is not specifically a SOUTH ASIA thing-----like FGM ---it followed islam wherever islam went. Of course FGM is also not entirely a muslim thing (only something like 98% today)-----but it follows islam wherever islam goes. It seems to me that these specific primitive customs get intertwined into religion ---specifically amongst muslims-----so they STICK as long as muslims remain in
their own communities and the practices got tied up in "shariah"---which-----btw------honor killing-----did
 
Crazy Sabbath restrictions for Jews leads to death of 7 children

Because of Sabbath regulations, Orthodox Jews are not allowed to turn their oven on or off from Friday sundown to Saturday evening, for that constituteswork, and you can’t work on the Sabbath. The mother was apparently keeping food warm on a hotplate (turned on before Friday sundown), and the hotplate malfunctioned, causing a fire that killed everyone but the father, who was away, as well as the mother and one daughter, who jumped out their second-floor window. Seven other kids died
Crazy Sabbath restrictions for Jews leads to death of 7 children Why Evolution Is True

It was a malfunction, an accident. Fires start from indoor heaters as well.

Really? This is your justification for refusing to have a daughter touched by a man trying to save her life? It is dishonoring her to save her life from drowning?
 
Phoenix, July 2009:

>> Authorities said Thursday that four boys ages 9 to 14 took turns raping an 8-year-old girl behind a shed for more than 10 minutes in what Phoenix police are calling one of the most horrific cases they've ever seen. The outrage over the allegations intensified after police said the girl's parents criticized her after the attack and blamed her for bringing shame on the family.

"The father told the caseworker and an officer in her presence that he didn't want her back. He said, 'Take her, I don't want her,' " police Sgt. Andy Hill said.

.... "This is a deeply disturbing case that has gripped our community," Maricopa County Attorney Andrew Thomas said Thursday. "Our office will seek justice for the young victim in this heartrending situation."

Hill cited the family's background as the reason the family shunned the girl. All five children are refugees from the West African nation of Liberia.

In some parts of Africa, women often are blamed for being raped for enticing men or simply being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Girls who are raped are often shunned by their families.

"It's a shame-based culture, so the crime is not as important as protecting the family name and the name of the community," said Tony Weedor, a Liberian refugee in Littleton, Colo., and co-founder of the CenterPoint International Foundation, which helps Liberians resettle in the U.S. "I just feel so sorry for this little girl. Some of these people will not care about the trauma she's going through - they're more concerned about the shame she brought on the family." <<

If you're scoring at home, or even if you're alone, Liberia is slightly over 85% Christian. If it matters -- which it doesn't. Notice the words "shame-based culture"; doesn't say "shame-based religion", now does it?

what point do you imagine you have made?. Liberia is a primitive African country. Christianity ---as far as it exists there---was simply
shoved at a lot of very primitive people who retained their culture of the past. If you ever get a chance to talk to muslims----ask THEM who are THE MOST SOCIALLY ADVANCED PEOPLE IN THE UNIVERSE-----who brought MODERN civilization to the WORLD----
ask some Pakistani about the GLORIOUS highly advanced culture of
the MOGHUL EMPIRE----unsurpassed by anything that ever existed
in the east and who ----in the future will being the most glorious
and highly cultured civilization to the Americas-----including, of course,
women's rights. You guessed right----ISLAM. I learned all about
it in the early 70s when west Pakistan was credited with raping
1/4 million girls in east Pakistan and the red cross was picking them
up------abandoned by their families for being raped. ------no one objected to the abandonment of the raped girls. When I questioned it-------the answer I got was "YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND MY CULTURE" I got that answer from some of the same people who
informed of the GLORIOUS ---highly civilized BS


Actually you just hit the nail on the head in your last sentence --- "my culture".
Not "my religion"... "my culture".

That's the whole point here -- that it's a cultural practice handed down for thousands upon thousands of years, has nothing to do with Islam, in fact is both prohibited by and PREDATES Islam by thousands of years. It's an ancient cultural artifact, having nothing to do with, in this case, Christianism, any more than Henry VIII's beheading of Catherine Howard or Mafia ambushes do. Because it doesn't come from religion.

This claim that it does is a blatant cum hoc fallacy and I just obliterated it yet again. The above was yet another example for the logically challenged demonstrating that "honor killing" has been observed in multiple cultures around the world, on every continent, having nothing whatsoever to do with Islam, or any other religion.
 
>> Fighting the scourge of honour killing is a constant political struggle against the patriarchal set-up which we (the people of South Asia) inherited from history, said veteran Indian journalist and human rights activist Jatin Desai on Sunday.

He was speaking at the launching ceremony of the book ‘Honour’ and Women’s Rights – South Asian Perspectives’, which was held at the Karachi Press Club.The book is a compilation of 15 research papers from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Nepal and the South Asian Diasporas living in the UK, US and Canada.

It explores the various dimensions of the centuries-old tradition that considers women as symbols of honour and a “bargaining chip” to settle disputes among clans and tribes and is prevalent to this today [sic], notwithstanding the fact that “some major women-friendly bills have been passed at least in Pakistan in the past six years,” said Anis Haroon, chairperson of National Commission on the Status of Women in Pakistan, who was the guest of honour on the occasion.

.... Gupte claimed that South Asian immigrants living in the West today are increasingly reluctant to use the tag of “honour killing” in cases where a girl is murdered by a next-to-kin when she gathers the courage to transgress the “honour code”.

This is because after 9/11 the term has acquired an “oriental and exotic” colour, which is seen from the distorted lens of Islamphobia, whereas the practice is more of a cultural plague that pervades more or less all the communities of this region, irrespective of faith, Gupte said.

“[In the West] if a local kills a woman in the name of honour, it is murder of passion or domestic violence as opposed to honour killing which is almost exclusively used for people from South Asia,” said Gupte who founded MASUM, a centre for women development in Pune in the year 1987 and is also one of the publishers of the compilation with the IDRC.

The practice stems from the feudal-patriarchal mindset, which is very much a part of the social fabric of South Asia to this day, << --- 'Patriarchal Mindset' is To Blame for Honour Killings

BS sorta-------honor killing is not specifically a SOUTH ASIA thing-----like FGM ---it followed islam wherever islam went. Of course FGM is also not entirely a muslim thing (only something like 98% today)-----but it follows islam wherever islam goes. It seems to me that these specific primitive customs get intertwined into religion ---specifically amongst muslims-----so they STICK as long as muslims remain in
their own communities and the practices got tied up in "shariah"---which-----btw------honor killing-----did

DUH. I've never said it was exclusively South Asian -- on the contrary I've been pointing out examples in Europe, the Americas (North and South), and just now, fucking Liberia.

Is Liberia in "South Asia" now????

The passage above once AGAIN supports my characterization of HBV as a cultural, and not a religious, rite. Can no one here follow a simple coherent thought?

And you're dead wrong on FGM. That too is an ancient cultural tradition known in some places and not others. It developed in the same times and for the same reasons --- control of women. Whatever religion eventually took over influence on those places, and there are many, is IRRELEVANT -- since the practice already existed before anybody invented Islam, Christianism, or anything else.

:banghead:

In some parts of Africa FGM still goes on, whether those parts are influenced by Islam or not. In Mecca it's considered pagan and barbaric. Once AGAIN it's got jack shit to do with "Islam" or any other religion. It's a SOCIAL practice --- not a religious practice.

We did this before too.
 
>> In part because of problems in official systems, feudal extra-judicial structures are thriving across many parts of the region [south Asia]. Several studies of the social aspects of honor crime, for example, suggest that heightened risk of such violence can be attributed less to class, ethnicity or religion per se than to persistent feudal systems that have incentives to maintain political and social control over local communities (Shrivastava 2009; Kirti et al 2011; Chesler and Bloom 2012). According to numerous sources, wherever ad hoc and standing local councils (i.e. Shuras and Jirgas in Afghanistan and Pakistan, and the khap panchayats in India) remain strong, they have been known at times to condone or encourage honor killing, rapes and other forms of sexual harassment...

In Afghanistan, jirgas' rulings do not even follow Sharia law, which requires trials before calling for honor killings, adhering instead to tribal customs that are especially severe for females (Ribin 2012). In India, khap panchayats are known to mete out honor killing sentences.

Despite their unconstitutionality, khap panchayats are trusted by local sections of castes to protect family honor and take "quick, unilateral and incontestable decisions on multiple issues like social transgressions, marriage, offences, property rights, inheritance, or regarding situations threatening tranquility in the village. It is through them that 'the most regressive social views' are sought to be implemented" (Kachhwaha 2011, 297-98).

In some instances, the formal legal system has tried to hold local leaders and extrajudicial courts accountable. In Pakistan, the only country in the region with a law against honor killing, the Criminal Law (Amendment) Act was passed in 2004 and became law in January 2005. << --- Violence Against Women and Girls: Lessons from South Asia
Again:
"social transgressions, marriage, offences, property rights, inheritance, or regarding situations threatening tranquility in the village". --- All SOCIAL constructs. None of them having to do with religion, whether the religion in practice is Sikhism, Islam, Hinduism or something else. ALL of them came long after these witch hunts were long established.
 
You can run and hide all you want with these irrelevant posts. The fact remains that child brides, honor killings, women's slavery and persecution of women is most prevalent TODAY in Muslim societies. Therefore, clearly, there is something in the faith itself that has locked it's followers into a medieval mindset. And that is because their prophet behaved this way towards women himself. :cool:

Doesn't it matter where and when it originated from? No.

It's not prevalent in other cultures and they aren't citing their religion as the reason for the abuse.
 
>> Fighting the scourge of honour killing is a constant political struggle against the patriarchal set-up which we (the people of South Asia) inherited from history, said veteran Indian journalist and human rights activist Jatin Desai on Sunday.

He was speaking at the launching ceremony of the book ‘Honour’ and Women’s Rights – South Asian Perspectives’, which was held at the Karachi Press Club.The book is a compilation of 15 research papers from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Nepal and the South Asian Diasporas living in the UK, US and Canada.

It explores the various dimensions of the centuries-old tradition that considers women as symbols of honour and a “bargaining chip” to settle disputes among clans and tribes and is prevalent to this today [sic], notwithstanding the fact that “some major women-friendly bills have been passed at least in Pakistan in the past six years,” said Anis Haroon, chairperson of National Commission on the Status of Women in Pakistan, who was the guest of honour on the occasion.

.... Gupte claimed that South Asian immigrants living in the West today are increasingly reluctant to use the tag of “honour killing” in cases where a girl is murdered by a next-to-kin when she gathers the courage to transgress the “honour code”.

This is because after 9/11 the term has acquired an “oriental and exotic” colour, which is seen from the distorted lens of Islamphobia, whereas the practice is more of a cultural plague that pervades more or less all the communities of this region, irrespective of faith, Gupte said.

“[In the West] if a local kills a woman in the name of honour, it is murder of passion or domestic violence as opposed to honour killing which is almost exclusively used for people from South Asia,” said Gupte who founded MASUM, a centre for women development in Pune in the year 1987 and is also one of the publishers of the compilation with the IDRC.

The practice stems from the feudal-patriarchal mindset, which is very much a part of the social fabric of South Asia to this day, << --- 'Patriarchal Mindset' is To Blame for Honour Killings

BS sorta-------honor killing is not specifically a SOUTH ASIA thing-----like FGM ---it followed islam wherever islam went. Of course FGM is also not entirely a muslim thing (only something like 98% today)-----but it follows islam wherever islam goes. It seems to me that these specific primitive customs get intertwined into religion ---specifically amongst muslims-----so they STICK as long as muslims remain in
their own communities and the practices got tied up in "shariah"---which-----btw------honor killing-----did

DUH. I've never said it was exclusively South Asian -- on the contrary I've been pointing out examples in Europe, the Americas (North and South), and just now, fucking Liberia.

Is Liberia in "South Asia" now????

The passage above once AGAIN supports my characterization of HBV as a cultural, and not a religious, rite. Can no one here follow a simple coherent thought?

And you're dead wrong on FGM. That too is an ancient cultural tradition known in some places and not others. It developed in the same times and for the same reasons --- control of women. Whatever religion eventually took over influence on those places, and there are many, is IRRELEVANT -- since the practice already existed before anybody invented Islam, Christianism, or anything else.

:banghead:

In some parts of Africa FGM still goes on, whether those parts are influenced by Islam or not. In Mecca it's considered pagan and barbaric. Once AGAIN it's got jack shit to do with "Islam" or any other religion. It's a SOCIAL practice --- not a religious practice.

We did this before too.

try again---there is no question that FGM pre-existed islam and there is no question that TODAY it is OVERWHELMINGLY a muslim issue----AND it has traveled WITH ISLAM wherever islam went---including to south east asia--------generally it is believed to have started in pre Islamic Egypt-----but was done in Arabia before the inception of islam. No matter how much you search ----you are not going to find it amongst the catholics of Ireland----but if there are muslims over there----you might very well. Hindus of india do not so
engage-----but it is certainly not unknown amongst muslims------just keep lying about it if it makes you feel better
 
Crazy Sabbath restrictions for Jews leads to death of 7 children

Because of Sabbath regulations, Orthodox Jews are not allowed to turn their oven on or off from Friday sundown to Saturday evening, for that constituteswork, and you can’t work on the Sabbath. The mother was apparently keeping food warm on a hotplate (turned on before Friday sundown), and the hotplate malfunctioned, causing a fire that killed everyone but the father, who was away, as well as the mother and one daughter, who jumped out their second-floor window. Seven other kids died
Crazy Sabbath restrictions for Jews leads to death of 7 children Why Evolution Is True

It was a malfunction, an accident. Fires start from indoor heaters as well.

Really? This is your justification for refusing to have a daughter touched by a man trying to save her life? It is dishonoring her to save her life from drowning?

fires used to start in CHRISTMAS trees too------I have not heard any such tragic events lately-----probably the ornament people ironed the bugs out of the systems. Fires is Fires-----where there is dry stuff and electricity and heat------they even start in clothes driers from lint
 
You can run and hide all you want with these irrelevant posts. The fact remains that child brides, honor killings, women's slavery and persecution of women is most prevalent TODAY in Muslim societies. Therefore, clearly, there is something in the faith itself that has locked it's followers into a medieval mindset. And that is because their prophet behaved this way towards women himself. :cool:

Doesn't it matter where and when it originated from? No.

It's not prevalent in other cultures and they aren't citing their religion as the reason for the abuse.

Bullfuckingshit. You are an extremely stupid wag. These social customs began thousands of years ago, loooooooooong before Islam, or Christianism, or Judaism, or Sikhism, were ever conceived. And you've been shown this over and over. Mind you, the patriarchal religions were assembled as yet another tool for the same purpose -- control of the community and keeping women down. In other words ---- having ALREADY come up with FGM and bride burning and dowries and "honor killing", THEN the idea of creating a religion with a male god --- which is on its face an absurdity --- was conceived as yet another tool toward the same ends.

The fact that Islam, as well as the other religions that are coincidental but not causal, all prohibit "honor killings"; the fact that the practice is KNOWN to historians and anthropologists millennia before any of these religions; the fact that the site of this story --- the UAE --- is governed under Islamic law and that same government arrested and prosecuted this guy ALL put the lie to your pathetic hackery.

God damn right it matters where it originated ("originated from" is redundant). If Christians put up Christmas trees, are you so simpleminded as to think Christianity invented them?

Holy SHIT you're fucking obtuse.
 
Last edited:
>> Fighting the scourge of honour killing is a constant political struggle against the patriarchal set-up which we (the people of South Asia) inherited from history, said veteran Indian journalist and human rights activist Jatin Desai on Sunday.

He was speaking at the launching ceremony of the book ‘Honour’ and Women’s Rights – South Asian Perspectives’, which was held at the Karachi Press Club.The book is a compilation of 15 research papers from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Nepal and the South Asian Diasporas living in the UK, US and Canada.

It explores the various dimensions of the centuries-old tradition that considers women as symbols of honour and a “bargaining chip” to settle disputes among clans and tribes and is prevalent to this today [sic], notwithstanding the fact that “some major women-friendly bills have been passed at least in Pakistan in the past six years,” said Anis Haroon, chairperson of National Commission on the Status of Women in Pakistan, who was the guest of honour on the occasion.

.... Gupte claimed that South Asian immigrants living in the West today are increasingly reluctant to use the tag of “honour killing” in cases where a girl is murdered by a next-to-kin when she gathers the courage to transgress the “honour code”.

This is because after 9/11 the term has acquired an “oriental and exotic” colour, which is seen from the distorted lens of Islamphobia, whereas the practice is more of a cultural plague that pervades more or less all the communities of this region, irrespective of faith, Gupte said.

“[In the West] if a local kills a woman in the name of honour, it is murder of passion or domestic violence as opposed to honour killing which is almost exclusively used for people from South Asia,” said Gupte who founded MASUM, a centre for women development in Pune in the year 1987 and is also one of the publishers of the compilation with the IDRC.

The practice stems from the feudal-patriarchal mindset, which is very much a part of the social fabric of South Asia to this day, << --- 'Patriarchal Mindset' is To Blame for Honour Killings

BS sorta-------honor killing is not specifically a SOUTH ASIA thing-----like FGM ---it followed islam wherever islam went. Of course FGM is also not entirely a muslim thing (only something like 98% today)-----but it follows islam wherever islam goes. It seems to me that these specific primitive customs get intertwined into religion ---specifically amongst muslims-----so they STICK as long as muslims remain in
their own communities and the practices got tied up in "shariah"---which-----btw------honor killing-----did

DUH. I've never said it was exclusively South Asian -- on the contrary I've been pointing out examples in Europe, the Americas (North and South), and just now, fucking Liberia.

Is Liberia in "South Asia" now????

The passage above once AGAIN supports my characterization of HBV as a cultural, and not a religious, rite. Can no one here follow a simple coherent thought?

And you're dead wrong on FGM. That too is an ancient cultural tradition known in some places and not others. It developed in the same times and for the same reasons --- control of women. Whatever religion eventually took over influence on those places, and there are many, is IRRELEVANT -- since the practice already existed before anybody invented Islam, Christianism, or anything else.

:banghead:

In some parts of Africa FGM still goes on, whether those parts are influenced by Islam or not. In Mecca it's considered pagan and barbaric. Once AGAIN it's got jack shit to do with "Islam" or any other religion. It's a SOCIAL practice --- not a religious practice.

We did this before too.

try again---there is no question that FGM pre-existed islam and there is no question that TODAY it is OVERWHELMINGLY a muslim issue----AND it has traveled WITH ISLAM wherever islam went---including to south east asia--------generally it is believed to have started in pre Islamic Egypt-----but was done in Arabia before the inception of islam. No matter how much you search ----you are not going to find it amongst the catholics of Ireland----but if there are muslims over there----you might very well. Hindus of india do not so
engage-----but it is certainly not unknown amongst muslims------just keep lying about it if it makes you feel better

There is nothing "Muslim" about FGM. There's FGM going on where there is Islam; there's FGM going on where there isn't Islam. There's Islam going on where there's FGM; and there's Islam going on where there's no FGM.

You just admitted it PREDATES the religion. It predates ALL current religions.

"Lying"? Go forth and verily fuck yourself.


>> Gynaecologists in 19th-century Europe and the United States removed the clitoris to treat insanity and masturbation.[161] British doctor Robert Thomas suggested clitoridectomy as a cure for nymphomania in 1813.[162] The first reported clitoridectomy in the West, described in The Lancet in 1825, was performed in 1822 in Berlin by Karl Ferdinand von Graefe, on a 15-year-old girl who was masturbating excessively.[163]

Isaac Baker Brown, an English gynaecologist, president of the Medical Society of London, and co-founder in 1845 of St. Mary's Hospital in London, believed that masturbation, or "unnatural irritation" of the clitoris, caused peripheral excitement of the pubic nerve, which led to hysteria, spinal irritation, fits, idiocy, mania and death.[164] He therefore "set to work to remove the clitoris whenever he had the opportunity of doing so," according to his obituary in the Medical Times and Gazette in 1873.[165] Brown performed several clitoridectomies between 1859 and 1866. When he published his views in On the Curability of Certain Forms of Insanity, Epilepsy, Catalepsy, and Hysteria in Females (1866), doctors in London accused him of quackery and expelled him from the Obstetrical Society.[166]

In the United States J. Marion Sims followed Brown's work, and in 1862 slit the neck of a woman's uterus and amputated her clitoris, "for the relief of the nervous or hysterical condition as recommended by Baker Brown," after the patient complained of menstrual pain, convulsions and bladder problems.[167] A. J. Bloch, a surgeon in New Orleans, removed the clitoris of a two-year-old girl who was reportedly masturbating.[168] According to a 1985 paper in the Obstetrical & Gynecological Survey, clitoridectomy was performed in the US into the 1960s to treat hysteria, erotomania and lesbianism.[169] << (Wiki)

The origins of female circumcision is [sic] rooted too distantly in human history to be fruitfully traced. The ritual has always been so widespread that it cannot have arisen from a single origin. Although always entangled in beliefs and superstitions with a mystical or religious background, the various peoples practicing it do not conform to a common racial, social or religious pattern. As a matter of fact no continent in the world has been exempt.

Like male circumcision, the female operation has been widely practiced by Semitic peoples. Many Moslem peoples and Egyptians still practice this rite. It is believed that the Israelites at one time also circumcised their female children.2 This is significant, for our current medical fad of infant male circumcision has come about partially as a result of Jewish influence. If the Jews still circumcised their female infants, perhaps we too would be circumcising our baby girls.

The practice of female genital mutilation has been widespread throughout many parts of the world, although it has not been practiced nearly to the extent of male circumcision.

In Africa, the ancient Egyptians, the Mohammedans, the Gallas, the Abyssinians, the Bantu tribes of Kenya and many other African tribes;. In Asia the ancient and modern Arabs and the Malays of the East Indian Archipelago;. In Australia by many tribes;. Some Indian tribes in eastern Mexico, Peru, and Western Brazil; and the Skopizy of Russia are listed among the people who have, and in some cases still dopractice the female operation.3 <<​

from: "Circumcision - the Painful Dilemma"

____________________​

Cultural, religious and social causes
The causes of female genital mutilation include a mix of cultural, religious and social factors within families and communities.
  • Where FGM is a social convention, the social pressure to conform to what others do and have been doing is a strong motivation to perpetuate the practice.
  • FGM is often considered a necessary part of raising a girl properly, and a way to prepare her for adulthood and marriage.
  • FGM is often motivated by beliefs about what is considered proper sexual behaviour, linking procedures to premarital virginity and marital fidelity. FGM is in many communities believed to reduce a woman's libido and therefore believed to help her resist "illicit" sexual acts. When a vaginal opening is covered or narrowed (type 3 above), the fear of the pain of opening it, and the fear that this will be found out, is expected to further discourage "illicit" sexual intercourse among women with this type of FGM.
  • FGM is associated with cultural ideals of femininity and modesty, which include the notion that girls are “clean” and "beautiful" after removal of body parts that are considered "male" or "unclean".
  • Though no religious scripts prescribe the practice, practitioners often believe the practice has religious support.
  • Religious leaders take varying positions with regard to FGM: some promote it, some consider it irrelevant to religion, and others contribute to its elimination.
  • Local structures of power and authority, such as community leaders, religious leaders, circumcisers, and even some medical personnel can contribute to upholding the practice.
  • In most societies, FGM is considered a cultural tradition, which is often used as an argument for its continuation.
  • In some societies, recent adoption of the practice is linked to copying the traditions of neighbouring groups. Sometimes it has started as part of a wider religious or traditional revival movement.
  • In some societies, FGM is practised by new groups when they move into areas where the local population practice FGM. --- World Health Organization
___________________________​

>> According to Forward, a leading UK charity that campaigns to end FGM, the practice takes place in many cultures and occurs in several different religious communities. However, mainstream spiritual leaders have denied that the practice stems from religion. Samira believes the desire to control women's sexuality lies behind it.

"I think women here are scared their daughters will become too westernised and not get married – that they will have boyfriends and go out, and this is why they have it done." << --- Mothers Need to Say No

"Islamic", my ass.
 
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>> Fighting the scourge of honour killing is a constant political struggle against the patriarchal set-up which we (the people of South Asia) inherited from history, said veteran Indian journalist and human rights activist Jatin Desai on Sunday.

He was speaking at the launching ceremony of the book ‘Honour’ and Women’s Rights – South Asian Perspectives’, which was held at the Karachi Press Club.The book is a compilation of 15 research papers from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Nepal and the South Asian Diasporas living in the UK, US and Canada.

It explores the various dimensions of the centuries-old tradition that considers women as symbols of honour and a “bargaining chip” to settle disputes among clans and tribes and is prevalent to this today [sic], notwithstanding the fact that “some major women-friendly bills have been passed at least in Pakistan in the past six years,” said Anis Haroon, chairperson of National Commission on the Status of Women in Pakistan, who was the guest of honour on the occasion.

.... Gupte claimed that South Asian immigrants living in the West today are increasingly reluctant to use the tag of “honour killing” in cases where a girl is murdered by a next-to-kin when she gathers the courage to transgress the “honour code”.

This is because after 9/11 the term has acquired an “oriental and exotic” colour, which is seen from the distorted lens of Islamphobia, whereas the practice is more of a cultural plague that pervades more or less all the communities of this region, irrespective of faith, Gupte said.

“[In the West] if a local kills a woman in the name of honour, it is murder of passion or domestic violence as opposed to honour killing which is almost exclusively used for people from South Asia,” said Gupte who founded MASUM, a centre for women development in Pune in the year 1987 and is also one of the publishers of the compilation with the IDRC.

The practice stems from the feudal-patriarchal mindset, which is very much a part of the social fabric of South Asia to this day, << --- 'Patriarchal Mindset' is To Blame for Honour Killings

BS sorta-------honor killing is not specifically a SOUTH ASIA thing-----like FGM ---it followed islam wherever islam went. Of course FGM is also not entirely a muslim thing (only something like 98% today)-----but it follows islam wherever islam goes. It seems to me that these specific primitive customs get intertwined into religion ---specifically amongst muslims-----so they STICK as long as muslims remain in
their own communities and the practices got tied up in "shariah"---which-----btw------honor killing-----did

DUH. I've never said it was exclusively South Asian -- on the contrary I've been pointing out examples in Europe, the Americas (North and South), and just now, fucking Liberia.

Is Liberia in "South Asia" now????

The passage above once AGAIN supports my characterization of HBV as a cultural, and not a religious, rite. Can no one here follow a simple coherent thought?

And you're dead wrong on FGM. That too is an ancient cultural tradition known in some places and not others. It developed in the same times and for the same reasons --- control of women. Whatever religion eventually took over influence on those places, and there are many, is IRRELEVANT -- since the practice already existed before anybody invented Islam, Christianism, or anything else.

:banghead:

In some parts of Africa FGM still goes on, whether those parts are influenced by Islam or not. In Mecca it's considered pagan and barbaric. Once AGAIN it's got jack shit to do with "Islam" or any other religion. It's a SOCIAL practice --- not a religious practice.

We did this before too.

try again---there is no question that FGM pre-existed islam and there is no question that TODAY it is OVERWHELMINGLY a muslim issue----AND it has traveled WITH ISLAM wherever islam went---including to south east asia--------generally it is believed to have started in pre Islamic Egypt-----but was done in Arabia before the inception of islam. No matter how much you search ----you are not going to find it amongst the catholics of Ireland----but if there are muslims over there----you might very well. Hindus of india do not so
engage-----but it is certainly not unknown amongst muslims------just keep lying about it if it makes you feel better

There is nothing "Muslim" about FGM. There's FGM going on where there is Islam; there's FGM going on where there isn't Islam. There's Islam going on where there's FGM; and there's Islam going on where there's no FGM.

You just admitted it PREDATES the religion. It predates ALL current religions.

"Lying"? Go forth and verily fuck yourself.

your hysterical rant is meaningless-----today---in the year 2015----FGM is 99% muslim --------Christmas trees are 100% Christian and
Matzoh balls are 100% jewish. ------well no----99% jewish. Who invented sliced bread is no issue either
 
>> Fighting the scourge of honour killing is a constant political struggle against the patriarchal set-up which we (the people of South Asia) inherited from history, said veteran Indian journalist and human rights activist Jatin Desai on Sunday.

He was speaking at the launching ceremony of the book ‘Honour’ and Women’s Rights – South Asian Perspectives’, which was held at the Karachi Press Club.The book is a compilation of 15 research papers from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Nepal and the South Asian Diasporas living in the UK, US and Canada.

It explores the various dimensions of the centuries-old tradition that considers women as symbols of honour and a “bargaining chip” to settle disputes among clans and tribes and is prevalent to this today [sic], notwithstanding the fact that “some major women-friendly bills have been passed at least in Pakistan in the past six years,” said Anis Haroon, chairperson of National Commission on the Status of Women in Pakistan, who was the guest of honour on the occasion.

.... Gupte claimed that South Asian immigrants living in the West today are increasingly reluctant to use the tag of “honour killing” in cases where a girl is murdered by a next-to-kin when she gathers the courage to transgress the “honour code”.

This is because after 9/11 the term has acquired an “oriental and exotic” colour, which is seen from the distorted lens of Islamphobia, whereas the practice is more of a cultural plague that pervades more or less all the communities of this region, irrespective of faith, Gupte said.

“[In the West] if a local kills a woman in the name of honour, it is murder of passion or domestic violence as opposed to honour killing which is almost exclusively used for people from South Asia,” said Gupte who founded MASUM, a centre for women development in Pune in the year 1987 and is also one of the publishers of the compilation with the IDRC.

The practice stems from the feudal-patriarchal mindset, which is very much a part of the social fabric of South Asia to this day, << --- 'Patriarchal Mindset' is To Blame for Honour Killings

BS sorta-------honor killing is not specifically a SOUTH ASIA thing-----like FGM ---it followed islam wherever islam went. Of course FGM is also not entirely a muslim thing (only something like 98% today)-----but it follows islam wherever islam goes. It seems to me that these specific primitive customs get intertwined into religion ---specifically amongst muslims-----so they STICK as long as muslims remain in
their own communities and the practices got tied up in "shariah"---which-----btw------honor killing-----did

DUH. I've never said it was exclusively South Asian -- on the contrary I've been pointing out examples in Europe, the Americas (North and South), and just now, fucking Liberia.

Is Liberia in "South Asia" now????

The passage above once AGAIN supports my characterization of HBV as a cultural, and not a religious, rite. Can no one here follow a simple coherent thought?

And you're dead wrong on FGM. That too is an ancient cultural tradition known in some places and not others. It developed in the same times and for the same reasons --- control of women. Whatever religion eventually took over influence on those places, and there are many, is IRRELEVANT -- since the practice already existed before anybody invented Islam, Christianism, or anything else.

:banghead:

In some parts of Africa FGM still goes on, whether those parts are influenced by Islam or not. In Mecca it's considered pagan and barbaric. Once AGAIN it's got jack shit to do with "Islam" or any other religion. It's a SOCIAL practice --- not a religious practice.

We did this before too.

try again---there is no question that FGM pre-existed islam and there is no question that TODAY it is OVERWHELMINGLY a muslim issue----AND it has traveled WITH ISLAM wherever islam went---including to south east asia--------generally it is believed to have started in pre Islamic Egypt-----but was done in Arabia before the inception of islam. No matter how much you search ----you are not going to find it amongst the catholics of Ireland----but if there are muslims over there----you might very well. Hindus of india do not so
engage-----but it is certainly not unknown amongst muslims------just keep lying about it if it makes you feel better

There is nothing "Muslim" about FGM. There's FGM going on where there is Islam; there's FGM going on where there isn't Islam. There's Islam going on where there's FGM; and there's Islam going on where there's no FGM.

You just admitted it PREDATES the religion. It predates ALL current religions.

"Lying"? Go forth and verily fuck yourself.


>> Gynaecologists in 19th-century Europe and the United States removed the clitoris to treat insanity and masturbation.[161] British doctor Robert Thomas suggested clitoridectomy as a cure for nymphomania in 1813.[162] The first reported clitoridectomy in the West, described in The Lancet in 1825, was performed in 1822 in Berlin by Karl Ferdinand von Graefe, on a 15-year-old girl who was masturbating excessively.[163]

Isaac Baker Brown, an English gynaecologist, president of the Medical Society of London, and co-founder in 1845 of St. Mary's Hospital in London, believed that masturbation, or "unnatural irritation" of the clitoris, caused peripheral excitement of the pubic nerve, which led to hysteria, spinal irritation, fits, idiocy, mania and death.[164] He therefore "set to work to remove the clitoris whenever he had the opportunity of doing so," according to his obituary in the Medical Times and Gazette in 1873.[165] Brown performed several clitoridectomies between 1859 and 1866. When he published his views in On the Curability of Certain Forms of Insanity, Epilepsy, Catalepsy, and Hysteria in Females (1866), doctors in London accused him of quackery and expelled him from the Obstetrical Society.[166]

In the United States J. Marion Sims followed Brown's work, and in 1862 slit the neck of a woman's uterus and amputated her clitoris, "for the relief of the nervous or hysterical condition as recommended by Baker Brown," after the patient complained of menstrual pain, convulsions and bladder problems.[167] A. J. Bloch, a surgeon in New Orleans, removed the clitoris of a two-year-old girl who was reportedly masturbating.[168] According to a 1985 paper in the Obstetrical & Gynecological Survey, clitoridectomy was performed in the US into the 1960s to treat hysteria, erotomania and lesbianism.[169] << (Wiki)

"Islamic", my ass.

wrong again-----the very rare use of ELECTIVE CLITORECTOMY in the history of medical practice is not news to me-------the ROUTINE FGM today practiced by a large percentage of muslims is the topic. Clitoretomy-----as a "treatment"-----was the topic of a lecture I attended about 40 years ago. It was done for abnormal enlargement of the clitorus-------which is often the result of an hormonal imbalance----the clitorus can be so enlarged that it looks like a phallus. Did you know that? In order to preserve sexual sensation---it can be--kinda "internalized" in a kinda side pocket in the labia majora------did you know that-------what they did as treatment in the 19th century is an issue for you? they used leeches too. electric shock is kinda barbaric
 

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